Compare/Contrast No Conversion

[KillWatch]

HU v MSH

HU just can't do cosmic as it is written. No power at any level can affect an entire planet.

This came about looking into research for a Hades subplot. I was looking at Cerberus from Pantheons and MSH.

MSH Cerberus is amazing, a guardian of the gates he is.
He can sense everything within 50 miles. Hercules has a strength of 100. Cerberus has 250. Thor has a Fighting of 100. Cerberus has a Fighting of 250. A typical human has a 6

Even taking into account MDC conversion of 100:1 to make it 40,000 sdc, its underwhelming.

Damage and Damage Capacity do get impressive, but everything else falls flat. yes regular HU characters can probably take out an entire gang by themselves. Yes a Megabeing can take out the mob in an all out battle. But beyond this, I don't of anyone who can lift 100 tons. Even the deific powers that require bodily investments don't affect an entire US state, let alone a country or continent, or planet.

Heroes are supposed to be able to well beyond humans, and they do for the most part, but it still doesn't scale well at all. I know the revised edition wanted to keep things simple, forbidding the MEGAHERO, but there should have been some sort of templates for power levels with corresponding XP, like Street Hero, Mega Hero, Planet Guardian, Cosmic Hero, allowing the GM to say hey-tonight we are doing a Street Hero game. maybe even allow MDC for Cosmic Heroes. If any game needs a much bigger stat chart with a revisions allowing for better bonuses that go well beyond 30, with scaling Strength carry/lift.
Street Hero: Power Effects x 1
Mega Hero: Effects x 2
Planetary: x5
Cosmic x 10
Those who would be gods x 100
or whatever

criticisms, ideas, opinions

[Iczer]

I've always assumed a stance of segregated sandboxes.

Marvel is, well marvel. It has defined highs and lows, an established game world and codified power levels, not to mention a system that juggles those disparate levels.

When I play HU2, I'm playing with that system. I'm not trying to do anyhting that system dosn't doo well, I'm trying to play with it's strengths. I'll do what i want in the sand, but I have no interest in changing the shape of the box.

Marvel and HU2 are two very different animals, and I think by accepting that, we can enjoy HU2 as it is.

Batts

[NMI]

I am NMI and I support this message.
[Paid for by the Iczer for President Fund]

I've always assumed a stance of segregated sandboxes.

Marvel is, well marvel. It has defined highs and lows, an established game world and codified power levels, not to mention a system that juggles those disparate levels.

When I play HU2, I'm playing with that system. I'm not trying to do anyhting that system dosn't doo well, I'm trying to play with it's strengths. I'll do what i want in the sand, but I have no interest in changing the shape of the box.

Marvel and HU2 are two very different animals, and I think by accepting that, we can enjoy HU2 as it is.

Batts

[rbm10101]

Ever see the watchmen movie? rorschach a normal human ultimately stops a horrible thing from happening to the world vs 2 equivalent mega heroes. Proving determination and brains are always the most powerful weapons.

[Daniel Stoker]

Um, well he might have ended up reveling what the 'mega' heroes did but those people all died in the cities.


Daniel Stoker

[AlanGunhouse]

HU is, and has always been, a low to mid power game...a very few power exist that are in the high end, but really part of the reason I like the game is that it is NOT a game for the incredibly powerful. If I want a game for high power, I can find one easy enough. When I want a street level to mid level game, HU is where I turn most often.

[Iczer]

Ever see the watchmen movie? rorschach a normal human ultimately stops a horrible thing from happening to the world vs 2 equivalent mega heroes. Proving determination and brains are always the most powerful weapons.

Until he's turned into an inkblot in the snow.

You know after a casual handwave.

By the megahero.

At that point, all he manged to do was get determined, and brainsed into paste.

Batts

[PapaMambo]

Ever see the watchmen movie? rorschach a normal human ultimately stops a horrible thing from happening to the world vs 2 equivalent mega heroes. Proving determination and brains are always the most powerful weapons.

Until he's turned into an inkblot in the snow.

You know after a casual handwave.

By the megahero.

At that point, all he manged to do was get determined, and brainsed into paste.

Batts

LMFAO..

Love it. Rorshach was a great character, but he was ultimately human. With the exception of Dr. Manhattan, there wasn't another true "super" in the entire book or movie. Sure, the others were all heroes, but hardly what I would call "super". Manhattan was easily a "cosmic" level character, with powers that were orders of magnitude above anything in that universe.

And that's sort of where we see a problem - DC, Marvel etc all have their own playgrounds to play in - and even then, within those playgrounds there are seperate smaller playgrounds. Watchmen was a DC release, but none of the characters fit in anywhere with the larger more complete DC universe, and thus the reason why we see such a discrepancy between power levels. Same thing goes for Marvel..

HU isn't really any different. There are powers that are presented in its pages that allow you to make 'most' any type of character. But honestly... would you truly have fun playing someone like Superman or the Hulk? Even characters like the Flash are GROSSLY overpowered.. It might be fun as a one-off game, but I couldn't invest my time getting into a character like that knowing that I really am a walking juggernaut, able to set the world ablaze with the merest thought or gaze.. Where is the danger? When you get right down to it - where is the fun in that?

A character like Spidey or Batman I could invest some of myself into - they're ultimately human, and have human weaknesses. That's why they have become such popular heroes in pop culture. I know I'll never be Superman, but given the right amount of money and training, I COULD be Batman..

[LeeNapier]

Watchmen was a DC release, but none of the characters fit in anywhere with the larger more complete DC universe

Except that they do. All of the characters in the Watchmen were based on pre-existing DC characters. The only reason they changed the characters and made it out-of-continuity is because of a higher-level editorial decision.

For the record:
The Comedian = Peacemaker
Dr. Manhattan = Captain Atom
Nite Owl = Blue Beetle
Ozymandias = Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt
Rorschach = The Question
Silk Spectre = Nightshade

[jaymz]

Where is the danger? When you get right down to it - where is the fun in that?

Funny, Justice League seems to be to oput all fo these characters into dangerous situations. Even with the uber powerful characters involved. Power level is irrelevant if the person crafting the story cannot account for the players in that story.

[AlanGunhouse]

Watchmen was a DC release, but none of the characters fit in anywhere with the larger more complete DC universe

Except that they do. All of the characters in the Watchmen were based on pre-existing DC characters. The only reason they changed the characters and made it out-of-continuity is because of a higher-level editorial decision.

For the record:
The Comedian = Peacemaker
Dr. Manhattan = Captain Atom
Nite Owl = Blue Beetle
Ozymandias = Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt
Rorschach = The Question
Silk Spectre = Nightshade

I am not sure what the status of all of those characters were at the time the Watchmen mini-series came out, but you can certainly see the parallels.

BTW: No, it is almost as impossible to be the Man in the cave as it is to be the alien...there is simply no way to be that good at that many things in only lifetime. HU is right about that, it would take at least 3 different classes to do the man in the cave, preferably more...changing classes does not happen in HU because you can not invest that much time in gaining new abilities and still keep the ones you have at peak ability.

[csyphrett]

Hu is a low powered game. It can be scaled for high power games by using Nightbane/demigods/cosmic forces as the basis for the hero. A lot depends on your gm and your players
CES

[Iczer]

Hu is a low powered game. It can be scaled for high power games by using Nightbane/demigods/cosmic forces as the basis for the hero. A lot depends on your gm and your players
CES

I disagree. I think the game scales very poorly with power levels. HU works for a nice midrange but handles power badly.

Batts

[csyphrett]

Hu is a low powered game. It can be scaled for high power games by using Nightbane/demigods/cosmic forces as the basis for the hero. A lot depends on your gm and your players
CES

I disagree. I think the game scales very poorly with power levels. HU works for a nice midrange but handles power badly.

Batts

That's cool. I point out that I had a player who could turn into the Cabbit from Tenchi Muyo to show that it does work.
CES

[Iczer]

Hu is a low powered game. It can be scaled for high power games by using Nightbane/demigods/cosmic forces as the basis for the hero. A lot depends on your gm and your players
CES

I disagree. I think the game scales very poorly with power levels. HU works for a nice midrange but handles power badly.

Batts

That's cool. I point out that I had a player who could turn into the Cabbit from Tenchi Muyo to show that it does work.
CES

and probably required a metric ton of house rules or handwaving to make work.

as opposed to the systems that go...Oh...is that all you want to do?

Batts

[jaymz]

I can't pick up a tank and throw a tank (aomethign that can happen qith some regularity in many comics) no matter what PS level I have....tank weigh in excess of 40 tons and you need a Supernatural PS of 160 to do so....and no lifting field doesn;t help that is JUST for lifitng and not throwing etc.

If you can show me how to get a PS of 160 then I'll believe HU to be able to do anything. Other than the fact you have t houserule to in fact make your favorite characters since you typically cannot get enogh powers to emulate said high level/powered characters.

[AlanGunhouse]

Lifting and throwing tank is easy enough...use Gravity Manipulation to make it weigh 1/50 the amount or something similar.

[jaymz]

I shouldn't have to use a power the character I am making or converting doesn't have

[AlanGunhouse]

They would not have lifting field either.

I have said before, HU is great at low power and good at mid power, but not good at really high power. If you are looking for high power, look elsewhere.

[jaymz]

That was my point of saying you can use lifting field to enhance said PS. and to show that you indeedcannot do a truly high powered game.

[KillWatch]

you would have to use up your total power catalogue just to get a decent enough PS loading up on utterly redundant powers that should be the perview of one; XPS
That's I started stacking, and instead of just a max of 30, a max for humans and for the power, I just added 30 to the PS. This is back in the revised days and the books have been keeping up with me. However they did create SNPS which did the same thing but as a major. And I deemed that any X attribute doesn't have a training limit so you can keep getting better. XPSx5=+150+starting att+training. And I've said it before, I dislike the different scales for different sources of strength, so I use the PS itself as a determinant. PS 10=10x10x1= Carry 100. PS 50=50x50x5=12,500=6 tons. 100x100x10=100,000=50 tons (which would be more in line with the other hero game systems)

I do damage wonkified as well. PS of 10 wielding a knife does 2d4+0. 1d4 from the knife+(ps/10)+(PS-10). a 25 PS with a knife does 3d4+15. Which makes sense that the guy could eviscerate a norm easily. Even by the book a PS of 15 can lift 300lb over their head.

However even in revised it was possible to get close to 150 with XPS, creative use of alien generation, animal abilities bear, etc. A friend did it but that to me just screws with character creation just to get a huge PS. I have to have X that doesn't fit my character at all just to do Y.

With megaheroes if you look in the Gramercy Island, the PS 120 ceiling has been shattered, almost as an afterthought. I don't know what the population skew is supposed to be in HU, but in my game supers are 1:1M, Megas are 1:1B. But even ignoring this with 3 guys in GI who have such strengths and so many megas in one place, there must be hundreds out there.

[AlanGunhouse]

Feeling a bit lazy...where is the PS 120 limit located in the text?

[jaymz]

Idk...last time i looked you max out at lessee human was 48 I think....then add max supernatural which is another 42......add in megahero...iirc they highest I got using the in game rules was between 100 and 110. I am going to check this now.

[jaymz]

Max PS of 30 + 10 (max from skills) + 24 (max alien ps bonus) + 62 (from supernatural PS and highest power based ps bonuses from max 4 major powers, including supernatural ps) + 20 (from megahero) for a total supernatural PS of 146 maximum by the book legal if all die rolls were to roll maximum numbers.

[AlanGunhouse]

Ummm, are you using the Armageddon Unlimited Power from a Demon Pact character, who can have a total of 5 major powers sometimes (though, granted, they can not be Mega Heroes). Just wondering if that might change the calculation any.

Also, some minor powers, like Lunar Strength, can greatly increase your strength under specific conditions.

[jaymz]

Ummm, are you using the Armageddon Unlimited Power from a Demon Pact character, who can have a total of 5 major powers sometimes (though, granted, they can not be Mega Heroes). Just wondering if that might change the calculation any.

If anything it may lower it. Tremendous PS for a mega adds +20 ther eis no other major super pwoer that woudl increase your ps as such. I was going for JUST highest PS bonus combinations

[AlanGunhouse]

I was editing as you were answering . Have you checked if any MINOR mowers might be more effective? For example, Superhuman Strength adds more than 20 PS.

[jaymz]

I was editing as you were answering . Have you checked if any MINOR mowers might be more effective? For example, Superhuman Strength adds more than 20 PS.

Didn't bother because even if it did it isn't as strong as supernatural. toge the equivalent to a SNPS of 146 you would need a SHPS of 243

[NMI]

Max PS of 30 + 10 (max from skills) + 24 (max alien ps bonus) + 62 (from supernatural PS and highest power based ps bonuses from max 4 major powers, including supernatural ps) + 20 (from megahero) for a total supernatural PS of 146 maximum by the book legal if all die rolls were to roll maximum numbers.

Technically, by the book, you are not suppose to get the PS bonus from physical skills if you take Supernatural PS [the major Super Ability]. By the book that is. How many of us play 100% by the book?

[AlanGunhouse]

Not what I meant friend...what if you take Superhuman Strength and Supernatural Strength and Lunar Strength and whatever on the same character? Doesn't the Strength points added remain?

[jaymz]

NMI - you are right so its should be a total of 136 not 146.

Alan - no different PS types do not and cannot stack.

EDIT - and ya I pretty much ignore the rules for HU. I say you want what type of hero? ok lets go over what you want him to be able to do and go from there. I pretty much ignore every class in teh book allow multiclassing non powered classes having some powers, mixing powers with magic and/or psionics so on and so forth with reckless abandon. This is suposed ot be a SUPER HERO game afterall

[csyphrett]

Hu is a low powered game. It can be scaled for high power games by using Nightbane/demigods/cosmic forces as the basis for the hero. A lot depends on your gm and your players
CES

I disagree. I think the game scales very poorly with power levels. HU works for a nice midrange but handles power badly.

Batts

That's cool. I point out that I had a player who could turn into the Cabbit from Tenchi Muyo to show that it does work.
CES

and probably required a metric ton of house rules or handwaving to make work.

as opposed to the systems that go...Oh...is that all you want to do?

Batts

Just changed the wording from animal metamorph:any to animal metamorph: any imaginary animal. Used pokemon cards for effects.
CES

[csyphrett]

If you get invulnerability, supernatural strength, and gravity control you can lift a tank since ps bonuses from powers do stack. Supernatural Strength allows a lift of 500 times ps and gravity control allows 100x times that.

40 ps times 500 is 20,000 pounds
20,000 x 100 is 2,000,000 pounds
2,000,000 divided by 2000 is a thousand tons.
CES

[jaymz]

If you get invulnerability, supernatural strength, and gravity control you can lift a tank since ps bonuses from powers do stack. Supernatural Strength allows a lift of 500 times ps and gravity control allows 100x times that.

40 ps times 500 is 20,000 pounds
20,000 x 100 is 2,000,000 pounds
2,000,000 divided by 2000 is a thousand tons.
CES

You shouldn't have to use a non PS power to be able to do it. The true Strength powerhouses int eh comics do it pure power of strength not using things like gravity control etc. I fyou just want a pure PS powerhouse to do it you can't.

[csyphrett]

You can declare strength with an upper limit of what you want to do if you were building a character to concept and not rolling dice. An expericenced HU GM should have no problem.

What I did was what you could do if you used the book only.

The style makes the difference.
CES

[AlanGunhouse]

If you get invulnerability, supernatural strength, and gravity control you can lift a tank since ps bonuses from powers do stack. Supernatural Strength allows a lift of 500 times ps and gravity control allows 100x times that.

40 ps times 500 is 20,000 pounds
20,000 x 100 is 2,000,000 pounds
2,000,000 divided by 2000 is a thousand tons.
CES

You shouldn't have to use a non PS power to be able to do it. The true Strength powerhouses int eh comics do it pure power of strength not using things like gravity control etc. I fyou just want a pure PS powerhouse to do it you can't.

How do you know that Aren't using gravity control subconsciously? That would certainly explain how they could lift things that should not hold together under the stress.

[jaymz]

If you get invulnerability, supernatural strength, and gravity control you can lift a tank since ps bonuses from powers do stack. Supernatural Strength allows a lift of 500 times ps and gravity control allows 100x times that.

40 ps times 500 is 20,000 pounds
20,000 x 100 is 2,000,000 pounds
2,000,000 divided by 2000 is a thousand tons.
CES

You shouldn't have to use a non PS power to be able to do it. The true Strength powerhouses int eh comics do it pure power of strength not using things like gravity control etc. If you just want a pure PS powerhouse to do it you can't.

How do you know that Aren't using gravity control subconsciously? That would certainly explain how they could lift things that should not hold together under the stress.

Good point but if they have never explained or expressed as them having such a power then to me they don't. Last I checked Supes and the Hulk do not have any kind of gravity manipulation powers. Now you want to use it to help emulate thier strength that is fine but that still leaves us with HU not being able to create the upper power level accurately.

[KillWatch]

thats all great but I have most of the incarnations of both marvel and dc RPGs and they don't list gravity manpipulations at all. In fact "super strength" isn't even a power in most of them, they just are, with superman having a 27 (it is more impressive if you know the game) and hulk with 100-500

[csyphrett]

You can declare strength with an upper limit of what you want to do if you were building a character to concept and not rolling dice. An expericenced HU GM should have no problem.

What I did was what you could do if you used the book only.

The style makes the difference.
CES

doesnt 'u can do it if the GM just makes stuff up' mean the same as 'the game cant do it' tho?

Depends. Conversions of high powered book characters means you have to pick something for a base to give you a framework, then you have to pick the power closest to what you want.

Sometimes you have to decide the power has to be modified to get what you want.

Conversions of characters are different from just a straight book roll up, which is different from a pick and choose character.

Conversions have an end goal in mind so you know where you going, what you have to use to get there, and how much of bend you need to have. The question is how much of a modification you want to throw in.

pick and choose and straight roll ups are restricted by what's in the book, and whatever the upper limit is implied in the power.
CES

[AlanGunhouse]

thats all great but I have most of the incarnations of both marvel and dc RPGs and they don't list gravity manpipulations at all. In fact "super strength" isn't even a power in most of them, they just are, with superman having a 27 (it is more impressive if you know the game) and hulk with 100-500

I know pretty much all the Marvel and DC systems...as well as the times when Superman did use gravity manipulation to lift heavy weights (when flying in specific). As someone said, it depends on the author and the era.

[Daniel Stoker]

The problem is you seem to be talking about the comics and KW is talking about what they've put out in their RPGs.


Daniel Stoker

[Amberjack]

For strength carry and lift, would it not be easy to simply change the Multiplier used for each strength category
XPS Carry 200 x PS and Lift 400 x PS
SHPS Carry 300 x PS and Lift 600 x PS
SNPS Carry 500 x PS and Lift 1000 x PS
These have been penciled in my HU core book since about a month after purchasing it.

[Damian Magecraft]

Or you can realize that comic characters move/lift/see etc... at the power of plot.
And RPG systems by their very nature codify these things with limits.
Writers of stories are not constrained by these limits.

[AlanGunhouse]

The problem is you seem to be talking about the comics and KW is talking about what they've put out in their RPGs.


Daniel Stoker

Actually, it was kind of in the the 3rd edition of the DC Heroes game for a time...but it got lost when they put out the 4th edition (and was long gone before the comic company sold the rights to a different game company). If you happen to have the match play War of the Gods, featuring Superman and Wonder Woman...it is sort of in that (though it is listed as a limitation on his strength).

[KillWatch]

Suggestions:
-Streamline strength, screw the different categories that only muck stuff up
-Get rid of major PS powers and allow for stacking which would allow for higher PSs and comic book-rpg level high end strength.

[AlanGunhouse]

Or create a major power that lets you customize by selecting a number of related minor powers...including stackable strength like 5 times.

[KillWatch]

yeah but that is just adding to the problem of redundant or unnecessary powers

[AlanGunhouse]

If you are stacking Strength as a minor, you still could not get a high enough strength...not with only two or 3 minors stacking. That was why I suggested it.

[KillWatch]

But you can have 5 minors, and if you lift the cap on ps because of the power, it just keeps getting better/worse

[AlanGunhouse]

Humph, depending on your class, you can have more than 5 minors...but the point was that if you spend all your powers on strength, you do not have much left.