Dead Boy wrote:It's lame because it follows your (and yours alone) assumption that telekinesis only functions in bursts of force with no sustained control, when in fact there is not a bit of evidence to substantiate that claim.
No, it follows my assumption that telekinesis can only make things "fly" through bursts of force with no sustained control, and I have this assumption because of how the books describe things.
None of the stuff that the books describe TK doing include the kind of power and control that you'd need in order to make somebody actually fly.
You can use TK to whack somebody with a club (control), or you can use it to hurl a piano at them (power), but there's no examples in the books of both at the same time.
Notice that the damage listing for the powers is all for
hurled objects, not for using them as melee weapons.
The MOPs list as one of the reasons why TK can't be used for flight the fact that the power is designed to throw things.
There's quite a bit of evidence on the side of my claim, which is why I both made the claim in the first place, and why I keep bringing up the evidence.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Things don't become irrelevant just because you personally don't like them.
I said antiquated and obsolete, not irrelevant.
Fair enough.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dead Boy wrote:Read it again, because you are still too fixated on the hurling aspect.
I've read it enough times.
I'm focused on the hurling aspect because this is they closest thing the power does to being able to make things "fly," and it's one of the reasons given for TK not being able to make people fly.
Incorrect. The only stated reason why ordinary TK doesn't allow flight is due to the weight limitation.[/quote]
That is
one reason.
Again, "Telekinesis is really meant to throw/hurl small objects around, or used as weapons or shields, or can be used to block someone/something."
You seem to be taking that sentence and ignoring everything except the word "small," when the words "throw/hurl" are at least as important.
The official response given as to why TK can't let you fly is that
it is really meant to throw/hurl things, or use melee weapons/shields, or to directly block attacks.... not to let people fly.
And besides which, according to you, the 20+ year old MOP citing takes precedence over the the newer 6 year old RUE rule-addition.
I'm not taking the MOP
over RUE at all.
RUE just doesn't add anything new to the picture, except to restrict things even tighter than they were before, eliminating the only flight capabilities that TK ever had.
You really need to decide which way you're going to argue for consistency's sake. Is TK Flight possible a la MOP, or is it not possible hence RUE? Pick one and we can discuss it from there.
It once was, now it's not.
As I've said before.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dead Boy wrote:Okay, let's hit this from a different angle. A psychic unsheathes a vibro sword and uses his power of TK to hurl it at an opponent. Once out there the psychic then mentally commands the sword to move about and attack those in the area. The hovering weapon, acting as though wielded by an invisible hand, does not move and then drop, but instead in a fluid motion, moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee. According to the power's description, this is perfectly permissible and requires continuous, sustained control over the object.
What part of the text do you think permits hurled objects not hitting the ground afterward?
"
The character can make an object hop, fall, roll, rise into the air, suspender it there (hover) or make it fly across the room." (RUE 170) Note the part about suspending object in the air on a sustained basis.
Using an attack to suspend something in the air is not the same as using an attack to hurl an object at a person,
then keep the object from hitting the ground.
The latter part is a separate action, which would require a separate attack, just like throwing something at somebody in front of you, then catching the object before it falls to the ground.
And the way the rules work, you can't really make that second attack until the opponent has gotten a chance to react and/or counter-attack.
So the way it would work by the rule is:
-You attack by hurling an object. The opponent gets to defend. It either hits him or not. Either way, the object hits the ground.
-The opponent gets an action/attack.
-Your next attack/action comes up, and you use that action to make the object hover.
Remember, throwing things with TK works the same as throwing them with your hands. There are no provisions for retaining control of the object after it has struck.
"One attack with Telekinesis by hurling an object as if thrown or causing it to buzz about a room..." (RUE 170) Objects that "buzz about" do not fall to the ground every three seconds. That is a sustained, controlled flight with multiple vector changes.
Full sentence:
"One can attack with telekinesis by hurling an object as if thrown or causing it to buzz about a room,
swinging and hitting like a club controlled by an invisible hand."
The last bit of the sentence shows you the context for the part you quoted: it's moving the object from point a to point be in order to make melee attacks with it.
The club attacks one person, then floats relatively slowly over to the the next person, then attacks them, then floats to the next.
Yes, it's control. But there's no real power with the blows.
Which is what is described in the MOPs version of flying that TK can provide: you can float slowly from one place to another, but there's no real zip if you want to retain control.
there is nothing in the power's description that even implies that the psychic must release the object at the end of his melee action. In fact, in addition to the above two quotes to the contrary, the two-minute per level power duration supports a continuation of effect.
You don't have to release the object at the end of a melee action.
But you do have to release an object in order to
hurl/throw it, by definition.
Killer Cyborg wrote:What part of the text do you think permits TK controlled objects to fly faster than a person can run?
Never said it did.
You said:
"...moving form one opponent to the next and chasing down anyone who tries to flee."
How can you chase somebody down if you don't move faster than they do?
Just wait until they stop to rest?
And that's really a subjective thing given the varying Speed attributes from one character to another... plus there is no official guidance in this area.
Agreed; there's no reason to assume that a TK wielded object can chase somebody down.
(Math is our friend
)
Not for this kind of stuff in the context of Palladium.
It's pretty clear that they don't take that kind of think into account.
Killer Cyborg wrote:You're seriously claiming that the only reason why Palladium might fail to refer back to their previous rulings on things is because they've deliberately considered the idea and rejected it due to the previous ruling being no longer valid?
Wouldn't be the first time.
Are you equating "wouldn't be the first time" with "the only possible reason?""
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dead Boy wrote:As further proof that MOP has no place in the current rules, look at RUE pgs 371-375.
What part of RUE says that those are the only books relevant to Rifts?
What part of Super TK says flight is not possible?
That doesn't actually answer my question, so I'll take it as admission that you were misrepresenting things in your post.
Moving on, I'll answer your question:
Nothing in the Super TK description states that flight is not possible.
Just like nothing in the Pyrokinesis description states that flight is not possible.
Just like nothing in the Psychosomatic Disease description states that flight is not possible.
Power is granted by permission, not by lack of denial.
So the better question would be, "What part of Super TK says that flight IS possible?"
The answer, again, is "nothing."
All we've got to go on to support the notion that Super TK allows flight is:
-The TK description's mention of weight and reference to Super TK
-The Super TK's description mentioning increased weight
-A mention in HUr that Super TK can move objects or the psychic.
It's not
nothing, but it's definitely not conclusive in any way. All we have is a few vaguely worded phrases in a couple of books, one of which is as obsolete as the MOPs.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dead Boy wrote:Your so called President no longer exists.
It does; I'm looking at it.
Whether or not the ruling has been changed doesn't affect the information that's in print.
And I'm looking at the 18th Amendment. Doesn't mean Eliot Ness is going to be kicking down my door for the beer in my fridge.
Nobody's saying that the rule still applies, only that it can still be referred to when trying to determine the mindset of the writers.
The intent of TK, as pointed out in the MOPs is NOT to let people fly.
Unless this has been demonstrably changed, then whether or not the limited flight described in the MOPs still exists, the purpose of the power remains the same, and it still does not include flight.
Killer Cyborg wrote:What it says is that the passage you cited as evidence that TK can be used for non-hurling stuff comes from a sentence describing its hurling ability.
"Telekinesis moves, lifts, and throws physical objects with the power of the mind so it may be used to hurl a victim into something as a slam attack, but NOT as a crushing or thrusting attack in and of itself. Objects thrown would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand."
It's not talking about separate features of TK, it's talking about separate parts of throwing.
So claiming that it means that TK can do more than throw is disingenuous.
Again you fixate on only one element when the part you emphasize is only part of the picture.
I'm only emphasizing the parts here that negate your claims about the passage you quoted.
Because that's my only point in this part- the passage you cited does not support what you claim.
Yes, you can hurl object. You can also levitate objects over a period of time, or roll a ball down the road at sustained pace out to the full range of the power.
Yes.
Of course, levitation isn't flight, and rolling a ball down a road isn't flight, so I don't get why you think these parts are relevant.
Also, I don't recall the part saying that you could roll a ball at a sustained pace.
Claiming that hurling objects is the limit of the power when it says in black and white "Telekinesis can be used to do more than make objects fly around. ... The range of possibilities is extensive..." (RUE 170) is outright myopic.
Which is likely why I've never made that claim.
What is written is not a sequence, but a list of individual options that can be initiated and executed independent of each other.
I've shown the full sentence, and explained how it works according to the rules of the English language.
If you want to come up with an opposing argument, by all means do so.
But just saying "nuh-uh" doesn't constitute an argument.
From the complete sentence, it's quite clear that they're all steps in the process of throwing.
Ask an English teacher.