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Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:24 pm**

Combat Cyborg O.C.C. (RUE Page 45-53)
Naruni Force Fields (Mercs Page 125-126)

Naruni Personal Force Fields are designed to be used by 'borgs and power armor, and when tied into their nuclear power supply provide 2x the MDC at 20x the cost according to the book.

I have several questions:

1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

2: Does the borg version of the force field stack with borg armor? Why?

3: Are there any OTHER force field options for borgs?

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:36 pm**

a) I don't know much about borg power supplies, but if they can power rail guns and blasters, odds are they can power a forcefield too
I'm not sure about the 2x MDC thing, a borg power unit is bound to be tiny and might not have quite the same yield as that of a PA or larger vehicle.

b) the Naruni field can be worn over normal body armor, or built into power armor, therefore there's no reason it can't go with borg armor

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:38 pm**

Starmage21 wrote:Combat Cyborg O.C.C. (RUE Page 45-53)
Naruni Force Fields (Mercs Page 125-126)

Naruni Personal Force Fields are designed to be used by 'borgs and power armor, and when tied into their nuclear power supply provide 2x the MDC at 20x the cost according to the book.

I have several questions:

1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

a) naruni in north america are not easy to find anymore, so the chance of getting it is rare
b) the high cost of a naruni forcefeild means you probably bought it on installment..
c) sometimes a GM just doesn't want his players having all the best stuff right off the bat.

2: Does the borg version of the force field stack with borg armor? Why?

i would say no. the FF would require a projector system, and wearing borg armor would cover that up and block it's use. the wearable version for infantry can be worn outside of their armor, and could be worn outside of borg armor..but wouldn't benefit from the extra MDC.

at least, IMO.

3: Are there any OTHER force field options for borgs?

not that i know of.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:47 pm**

Starmage21 wrote:1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

Campaign balance. As a starting character, will the player be unreasonably overpowered when compared to the other characters? Does a borg with such defensive capabilities jive with the type of campaign I am trying to run? Can the player handle role-playing such a "tank?"

Starmage21 wrote:2: Does the borg version of the force field stack with borg armor? Why?

Assuming that you mean borg armor as in the actual physical armor that a borg can wear/attach to their chassis: yes. In most cases, additional armor won't hinder a force field. Theoretically, you can slap a force field on just about anything regardless of its current armor in order to provide additional protection. Multiple force-fields? No.

There is this though, as GB pointed out:

i would say no. the FF would require a projector system, and wearing borg armor would cover that up and block it's use. the wearable version for infantry can be worn outside of their armor, and could be worn outside of borg armor..but wouldn't benefit from the extra MDC.

Though I would say that's a maybe, not a definite hindrance. Depends on the borg.

Starmage21 wrote:3: Are there any OTHER force field options for borgs?

Off the top of my head I can't think of any. Doesn't mean there aren't any. Note though that most Earth nations do not have force field tech as of yet. Triax is a notable exception.

~ Josh

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:04 pm**

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
Starmage21 wrote:1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

Campaign balance. As a starting character, will the player be unreasonably overpowered when compared to the other characters? Does a borg with such defensive capabilities jive with the type of campaign I am trying to run? Can the player handle role-playing such a "tank?"
~ Josh

I get your point about balance, however, would you say the same thing about a glitter boy or dragon hatchling? The MDC a borg can carry, even with the biggest force field and heaviest borg armor is still less than the glitter boy. The hardiest dragon hatchling has 1d6*100MDC and bio-regenerates a huge chunk of that every turn (no cost to repair!).

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:41 pm**

Starmage21 wrote:Combat Cyborg O.C.C. (RUE Page 45-53)
Naruni Force Fields (Mercs Page 125-126)

Naruni Personal Force Fields are designed to be used by 'borgs and power armor, and when tied into their nuclear power supply provide 2x the MDC at 20x the cost according to the book.

I have several questions:

1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

2: Does the borg version of the force field stack with borg armor? Why?

3: Are there any OTHER force field options for borgs?

1. Depends on the adventure/campaign
2. Yes. Why not?
3. Yes.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:04 pm**

1) Naruni stuff is best used as high end adventure loot. And as someone already mentioned, there's the issue of the rarity.

2) I would allow it to stack.

3) Dunno

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:31 pm**

1) Yes, I'd allow it. But it would largely depend on the campaign's power level.

2) Yes, it should stack. That's why it costs 20 times as much.

3) Nothing comes to mind, aside from taking the forcefield off of a Triax Ulti-Max and installing it on a Borg. But that's another can of worms.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:34 pm**

Starmage21 wrote:I get your point about balance, however, would you say the same thing about a glitter boy or dragon hatchling? The MDC a borg can carry, even with the biggest force field and heaviest borg armor is still less than the glitter boy. The hardiest dragon hatchling has 1d6*100MDC and bio-regenerates a huge chunk of that every turn (no cost to repair!).

Oh, definitely. That also depends on the campaign too.

~ Josh

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:19 pm**

As long as the player isn't making a Mary Sue it's probably alright to give them the force field as a starting option. Who knows, maybe Triax has attempted to design personal forcefield units as well, considering how useful the forcefield is on the Ultimax.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:47 pm**

Svartalf wrote:
b) the Naruni field can be worn over normal body armor, or built into power armor, therefore there's no reason it can't go with borg armor

Rifts: Mercenaries page 125 wrote:It is NOT possible to wear armor under a forcefield, unless the field generator is built into a conventional suit or power armor; a fairly simple modification that costs 20 000 to 40 000 credits and takes 1d4 days to install.

Just wanted to point out that a Naruni field cannot be worn over normal body armor, it can be built into armor though. In this case it would have to be built into the borg armor, rather than the borg itself.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:13 am**

Starmage21 wrote:1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

The strict reading would be that the rules as written disallow it because the description in the OCC doesn't mention it and that book is not mentioned in the "if" list provided later; and even if it was listed there, it would still be subject to GM approval.

Further, enhanced-cost high-rarity items should not, IMO, be provided as starting options unless they are explicitly noted as being available.

The OCCs are already massively imbalanced, and so anything done to further imbalance should be viewed with caution.

If the other players in your game is doing similar things, then you should be allowed the option in question (good luck replacing if it is destroyed). If the other players are City Rats, Headhunters, and the like, and you're the only borg, then forget it.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:27 am**

grandmaster z0b wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
b) the Naruni field can be worn over normal body armor, or built into power armor, therefore there's no reason it can't go with borg armor

Rifts: Mercenaries page 125 wrote:It is NOT possible to wear armor under a forcefield, unless the field generator is built into a conventional suit or power armor; a fairly simple modification that costs 20 000 to 40 000 credits and takes 1d4 days to install.

Just wanted to point out that a Naruni field cannot be worn over normal body armor, it can be built into armor though. In this case it would have to be built into the borg armor, rather than the borg itself.

So you can get your borg armor to be built around your integral field generator, at an add'l cost per suit... or course, it takes buying your suits from a vendor that can customize them, but that's not a complete negation. I should have been more precise, as indeed the "normal" armor still needs modification.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:59 am**

Really, the issue is probably less about the player getting the forcefield and more about how people justify the character paying FOR the forcefield. One aspect of at least Rifts that is not very well dealt with in the main book and only given a tip of the hat in other books is money... as in that valuable resource that people who use tech gear have to have in order to repair, refuel, and reload their armor and weapons. A lot of assumptions have to be made in Rifts when it comes to a player characters financial situation and some OCCs can raise some particularly interesting questions in regards to this area.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:08 am**

Torch wrote:Stupid question here, what is a "Mary Sue"?

Mary Sue

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:35 pm**

Daniel2112 wrote:
Colt47 wrote:Really, the issue is probably less about the player getting the forcefield and more about how people justify the character paying FOR the forcefield. One aspect of at least Rifts that is not very well dealt with in the main book and only given a tip of the hat in other books is money... as in that valuable resource that people who use tech gear have to have in order to repair, refuel, and reload their armor and weapons. A lot of assumptions have to be made in Rifts when it comes to a player characters financial situation and some OCCs can raise some particularly interesting questions in regards to this area.

I figure if the character's already managed to raise the millions needed for a full conversion, quibbling over the additional cost of a built-in forcefield is just nitpicking.

That's like saying, "I figure if there is magic, then every one should have a sword of atlantis, otherwise you are just nitpicking"

Cost of full conversion is 900k credits. A Naruni force field is a minimum of 4 million credits, if you can find one and find someone qualified to install it, etc.

I see nothing in the paragraph on bionic accessories that implies a naruni super heavy forcefield is an appropriate starting option for a level 1 combat cyborg. If you are running a Monty Haul game where the players are in charge of the asylum, sure, you could allow it, but in a regular game? Are you kidding me?

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:18 pm**

OK, revising my earlier appraisal... theoretically possible, but not necessarily a good idea.

a) the borg version, indeed costs (depending on strength) from as much to 4 times as much as the actual basic full conversion procedure (before options and enhancements)

b) IF you can get that field as part of your borg package, AND want armor with it... well, ok, but better hope your field isn't brought down, ever, because it's built in as part of the armor, not you, so it might be problematic to patch the armor in ways that won't adversely affect the field if it ever needs repairs... and of course, if the armor gets trashed, the field is too.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:32 pm**

Daniel2112 wrote:
Torch wrote:
Colt47 wrote:As long as the player isn't making a Mary Sue it's probably alright to give them the force field as a starting option. Who knows, maybe Triax has attempted to design personal forcefield units as well, considering how useful the forcefield is on the Ultimax.

Stupid question here, what is a "Mary Sue"?

A trendy term for munchkin.

Actually, it's the Romance Novel or FanFic version of a Munchkin.
It's a character designed for the writer (or, in this case, player) to get off on living out their fantasies of being the center of the universe.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:50 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Daniel2112 wrote:
Torch wrote:
Colt47 wrote:As long as the player isn't making a Mary Sue it's probably alright to give them the force field as a starting option. Who knows, maybe Triax has attempted to design personal forcefield units as well, considering how useful the forcefield is on the Ultimax.

Stupid question here, what is a "Mary Sue"?

A trendy term for munchkin.

Actually, it's the Romance Novel or FanFic version of a Munchkin.
It's a character designed for the writer (or, in this case, player) to get off on living out their fantasies of being the center of the universe.

I prefer the term Mary Sue over Munchkin anyway since it also can include the GM and his creations as well. :lol:

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:51 pm**

Starmage21 wrote:Combat Cyborg O.C.C. (RUE Page 45-53)
Naruni Force Fields (Mercs Page 125-126)

Naruni Personal Force Fields are designed to be used by 'borgs and power armor, and when tied into their nuclear power supply provide 2x the MDC at 20x the cost according to the book.

I have several questions:

1: Why would you not allow (or allow) your Combat Cyborg O.C.C. to choose one of the force fields as one of his starting options under bionic extras on page 48 of RUE?

mostly because the borg version of the force field costs more than the conversion.

2: Does the borg version of the force field stack with borg armor? Why?

yes, because its a force field.

3: Are there any OTHER force field options for borgs?

Triax force field, Spinne Force field, alien tech force field, techno wizard force field, magical talisman force field, bio force field.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:26 pm**

You guys are forgetting something, you don't have to buy the robotic version. You can get the standard one and have a weapon engineer install it into the armor and power supply.
Now it will have normal MDC and follows the standard rules, but have unlimited power at a lot cheaper price.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:33 pm**

Indeed... you still will have problems patching that armor without interfering with the field if it gets shot out, and will still lose the generator completely if the armor is destroyed too.
But it becomes a lot more affordable.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:47 am**

2 things:

1: I hadnt thought of getting the standard version installed on the suit of armor with a connection to the borg power supply. It runs on an E-Clip anyway, and if the field goes down, the armor wont last long either.

2: A good chunk of the people in this thread continue to get stuck on the cost of the conversion procedure, but somehow keep forgetting that the borg body cost millions of credits by itself, let alone all the free gear you get attached to it as a starting character, including some guns and options which cost hundreds of thousands of credits by themselves. 4 million credits when compared to say the 30-40 million cost of the borg body. *edit* Does this change your opinion?

Lastly, if anyone cares, the game we're playing in started everyone at level 3, and my background explains the character's ownership of his borg body and weapons and accessories as a sort of signing bonus that was written into his merc contract at the time of conversion. He served no short tour mind you, the contract was for a 20 year minimum, and the unit was a dimensional outfit of mercs like the megaversal legion.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:27 pm**

Starmage21 wrote: 4 million credits when compared to say the 30-40 million cost of the borg body.

Why do you think a full conversion costs 30-40 million?

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:28 am**

The price of a raw full conversion is 900 KI credits. granted, with attribute enhancements and all the additional trimmings it can rise to something like 2 million, but not to 10

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:49 am**

Not the conversion Svartalf. The cyborg body itself. The Combat Cyborg O.C.C. doesn't tell you how much the body you start with cost, but it had to be in the same area as the other borg bodies available.

Wing Blade Borg: 6 million (WB8 Pg 101)
Tsunami Dragon Borg: 8 million (WB8 pg 104)
Imperial Combat Borg: 10 million (WB8 pg 105)
Flame Cloud: 12 Million (WB8 pg 108)
Triax borgs: 2-8 million, with the VX-635 being worth ~50 mil. (World Book 5, page 99-117)
Free Quebec borgs: 4.8 - 6.2 million credits (WB22 pg 115-123)

These are just a few.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:04 am**

Well, conversion includes the basic body... you're not paying nearly a million just for the surgery.
Granted, at that price it's not really worth having, since you have barely average human abilities and no options, but you're a borg already, and when you get more money, you can get mods like strength, speed, armor, cyber systems and weaponsry...

and the examples you give have plenty add ons included in the list price, they are not 'basic' borg conversions by any stretch... especially when you look at the advanced heavy weaponry on many of them, not to mention the additional costs of a dragon borg frame over a basic human one.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:00 am**

Svartalf wrote:Well, conversion includes the basic body... you're not paying nearly a million just for the surgery.
Granted, at that price it's not really worth having, since you have barely average human abilities and no options, but you're a borg already, and when you get more money, you can get mods like strength, speed, armor, cyber systems and weaponsry...

and the examples you give have plenty add ons included in the list price, they are not 'basic' borg conversions by any stretch... especially when you look at the advanced heavy weaponry on many of them, not to mention the additional costs of a dragon borg frame over a basic human one.

my point being, you cant use that "basic body" as your baseline comparison. It's like comparing a compact car to a freaking monster truck. Just because theyre similar, doesnt mean theyre good comparisons. Monster trucks need to be compared to monster trucks, or the Combat Cyborg O.C.C. needs to be compared to other military models full of options.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:22 am**

Sure you can, look at the Russian light borg... that's already a fairly enhanced model, and it costs 2.5mil on the open market, with an effective real cost of half as much to the sponsoring warlord.

Posted: **Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:20 am**

One of the triax borgs is 2 million. That said, the borg you start with via the OCC doesnt have the stats of those light borgs. Its a freaking heavy.

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