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I'm working on a game that will use the "Frontier class" colony vessel and the starships from MAcross 2 and putting it into the Three Galaxies.
The premis is that the fleet is shunted to TG via the typical Fold accident, upon defold their fold drives burn out and they land on a semi habitable planet. Planet gravity is 35% higher than normal (1.35 g) has extreme weather conditions and 4 continents of equivalent size to South America. Central area of the main continent is part desert and high plains steppe, coastal regions are lush forests/jungles.
The planet in question has not been discovered due to it being hidden by a stellar "Briar Patch"/Nebula (yeah I kow Star Trek has used the idea, but so did Br'er Rabbit ) The PC's will be on a UN Spacy craft (most likely battle ship class) that , due to a slightly phobic change in gov't policy, has been pared down a bit (no 'main gun') and has a bit of a rag tag crew of misfits and near washouts.
I'm looking for suggestions on how to handle potential encounters TGE, UWW, CCW, etc. encounters. I also want to stress that I will be throwing in alot of culture shock (Macross humans have never encountered THIS variety of species and cultures).
P.S.: I've already referenced Kitsune's work, I just want fresher thoughts .

From what I gather, the UN spacy would be willing to deal with alien species more or less whatever they look like, but are very mistrustful in general.

In short, "First Contact" will more or less define how things go.

If a skirmish breaks out, the UN spacy is likely to put them on the Enemies list for a long time.

I think Nekira has got it bang on.

The NUNS would deal with human looking Aliens very well. (New UN Spacy). How the rest of the population would take meeting new cultures can be modeled after how each human culture reacted to the different cultures as they explored earth.

The hiding on a planet in the middle of a nebula was also in the new BattleStar Galattica.

Is thinking you mean that just the main colony ship makes the "wrong way space fold" So they would only have any star ships docked with it. Thus it would only have it's battle class ship. (The SDF1 like ship docked with the front of the colony.) And maybe a SMS new "macross" class ship. Thus you might have one or two ships that still have their fold drives intact.

While I do think that they would make some ground side enclaves, most of the human population would stay in orbit with the main colony ship. due to the high gravity of the planet. While macronized Zents would find the high grav ok.

First contact....
Technology, Different comm signals or different comm algorithms or sensors reading powered down weapons as powered up weapons, or the different stand off range for weapons would make one side to 'invade' the other side's "space" when trying to stop outside their 'space'.

CCW, eventually they come to peacefull terms with each other.
UWW, depends on any culture clash develops over time how their relations are.
TGE, peacefull so long as the TGE thinks that they couldn't defeat the NUNS.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The NUNS would deal with human looking Aliens very well. (New UN Spacy). How the rest of the population would take meeting new cultures can be modeled after how each human culture reacted to the different cultures as they explored earth.

The hiding on a planet in the middle of a nebula was also in the new BattleStar Galattica.

Is thinking you mean that just the main colony ship makes the "wrong way space fold" So they would only have any star ships docked with it. Thus it would only have it's battle class ship. (The SDF1 like ship docked with the front of the colony.) And maybe a SMS new "macross" class ship. Thus you might have one or two ships that still have their fold drives intact.

While I do think that they would make some ground side enclaves, most of the human population would stay in orbit with the main colony ship. due to the high gravity of the planet. While macronized Zents would find the high grav ok.

First contact....
Technology, Different comm signals or different comm algorithms or sensors reading powered down weapons as powered up weapons, or the different stand off range for weapons would make one side to 'invade' the other side's "space" when trying to stop outside their 'space'.

CCW, eventually they come to peacefull terms with each other.
UWW, depends on any culture clash develops over time how their relations are.
TGE, peacefull so long as the TGE thinks that they couldn't defeat the NUNS.

The idea I have is the ENTIRE fleet misfolds (proximity effect of a nearby blackhole/Nexus), the few intact fold drives are canabilized to repair the main colony vessels drive so they are grounded for a time.
The old President dies of natural causes and his VP is more of a "keep the forces at home" so he even strips ships of weapon systems to fortify the colony. The characters ship later undergoes a slight refit, but I'd also expect a fair amount of 3G Black Market trading once they get back out into the galaxy at large.

Different comm systems for certain. The NUNS uses Fold Comms and (by 3G standards) archaic radio communications, so I'd expect there to be "miscommunications" even the English based Trade Language would be "different" in respect to what is effectively 20th century standard English other common Terrran language.
How would the NUNS regard magic & psionics?

To be honest, I really don't see any way that the TGE won't go to war with the Spacy. They'll see new technology and weapons that beat the everloving crap out of PW guns (The main cannon being infamously better by any PW weapon by orders of magnitude), and decide they want it. Seeing as how it's still just one lone fleet aginst a transgalatic empire, they'll think they can.

In all reality, if the TGE decide they want the secrets of Spacy technology, they will go for it, and go for it in force.

Generally speaking, the Spacy would have to manuver and fight to survive, all the while trying to form an alliance to secure it's safety because without aid, the TGE could wear down the lone spacy fleet though sheer dint of numbers, given time.

Hi there!

Nekira Sudacne wrote:To be honest, I really don't see any way that the TGE won't go to war with the Spacy. They'll see new technology and weapons that beat the everloving crap out of PW guns (The main cannon being infamously better by any PW weapon by orders of magnitude), and decide they want it. Seeing as how it's still just one lone fleet aginst a transgalatic empire, they'll think they can.

There is another scenario - the "destroys everything" - main guns operate on the same principle
as fold drives (putting the particle stream into subspace, which then sucked back to normal space
within the vicinity of an object).

This means they don't operate in the 3Galaxies. At least not the way they are expected to.

So, after the first ships goes boom, they abandon it, as well as fold drives.

- - -
Plan B is - of course - converting those guns in 3G standard (or for that matter, converting 3G stuff
into meaningfull ones - which is due from DMB2, just compare the main guns of the Kartuhm-Terek on
pg.148 to any starship.)

Adios
KLM

keir451 wrote:
The idea I have is the ENTIRE fleet misfolds (proximity effect of a nearby blackhole/Nexus), the few intact fold drives are cannibalized to repair the main colony vessels drive so they are grounded for a time.
The old President dies of natural causes and his VP is more of a "keep the forces at home" so he even strips ships of weapon systems to fortify the colony. The characters ship later undergoes a slight refit, but I'd also expect a fair amount of 3G Black Market trading once they get back out into the galaxy at large.

Different comm systems for certain. The NUNS uses Fold Comms and (by 3G standards) archaic radio communications, so I'd expect there to be "miscommunications" even the English based Trade Language would be "different" in respect to what is effectively 20th century standard English other common Terrran language.
How would the NUNS regard magic & psionics?

This is one of the worst of stupid ideas the VP could of had. Even with a fortified position, you want to have the fortifications "In Depth" and warships are a part of providing such depth. You don't want any enemy ship to get anywhere 'in range' of the infrastructure and the population. The commanding officers of NUNS would strenuously fight the VP from striping the ships they need to protect them.
So if they were going to fortify up, then it would to be to build more warships. Maybe have those ships as monitors (ships without FTL drives to free up tonnage for more weapons systems.)

If the entire fleet made the malformed Fold jump then they would have their industrial ships with them. Any reasonable Naval Officer would point out that unless the colony ship was in danger of completely de-pressurizing (including the shelters), that keeping the ship in orbit would the best course of action. That is where the industry is, and there is no way there could be any contamination from the planet's biosphere or having the biosphere 'rusting out' of the ship's structure.

Another thing is that the Fold drives of the colony ship and the fold drives of the other ships would be quite different in their capacities (aka Size) and using other ship's fold drives to repair the colony ship's would not be feasible and it would take an equivalent amount of time to manufacture new components by the industrial ships.

There is also that Fold Drive do work in the 3G. The fold drive tech at the time of colony fleet 24 is more advanced then the fold drive tech of the 3G and the RT zentradie. It might take a while for the fold tech scientists and techs to reset the algorithms that control their drives functions to the particular conditions of the space.
Also, most of the ships in the fleet do not have heavy particle beam 'main gun'. So while firing a 'main gun' might destroy the ship it's mounted in, there are only a couple (or a handful) of ships that have main guns.


Once they make contact with other civ's, they will still have the advantage of having a secure base. Due to that they use fold drives, they can't be followed by Gravtic drives that are predominant in the 3G.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

keir451 wrote:
The idea I have is the ENTIRE fleet misfolds (proximity effect of a nearby blackhole/Nexus), the few intact fold drives are cannibalized to repair the main colony vessels drive so they are grounded for a time.
The old President dies of natural causes and his VP is more of a "keep the forces at home" so he even strips ships of weapon systems to fortify the colony. The characters ship later undergoes a slight refit, but I'd also expect a fair amount of 3G Black Market trading once they get back out into the galaxy at large.

Different comm systems for certain. The NUNS uses Fold Comms and (by 3G standards) archaic radio communications, so I'd expect there to be "miscommunications" even the English based Trade Language would be "different" in respect to what is effectively 20th century standard English other common Terrran language.
How would the NUNS regard magic & psionics?

This is one of the worst of stupid ideas the VP could of had. Even with a fortified position, you want to have the fortifications "In Depth" and warships are a part of providing such depth. You don't want any enemy ship to get anywhere 'in range' of the infrastructure and the population. The commanding officers of NUNS would strenuously fight the VP from striping the ships they need to protect them.
So if they were going to fortify up, then it would to be to build more warships. Maybe have those ships as monitors (ships without FTL drives to free up tonnage for more weapons systems.)

If the entire fleet made the malformed Fold jump then they would have their industrial ships with them. Any reasonable Naval Officer would point out that unless the colony ship was in danger of completely de-pressurizing (including the shelters), that keeping the ship in orbit would the best course of action. That is where the industry is, and there is no way there could be any contamination from the planet's biosphere or having the biosphere 'rusting out' of the ship's structure.

Another thing is that the Fold drives of the colony ship and the fold drives of the other ships would be quite different in their capacities (aka Size) and using other ship's fold drives to repair the colony ship's would not be feasible and it would take an equivalent amount of time to manufacture new components by the industrial ships.

There is also that Fold Drive do work in the 3G. The fold drive tech at the time of colony fleet 24 is more advanced then the fold drive tech of the 3G and the RT zentradie. It might take a while for the fold tech scientists and techs to reset the algorithms that control their drives functions to the particular conditions of the space.
Also, most of the ships in the fleet do not have heavy particle beam 'main gun'. So while firing a 'main gun' might destroy the ship it's mounted in, there are only a couple (or a handful) of ships that have main guns.


Once they make contact with other civ's, they will still have the advantage of having a secure base. Due to that they use fold drives, they can't be followed by Gravtic drives that are predominant in the 3G.

IIRC most colony fleets have only ONE ship with the heavy uber destructo beam weapon The rest are more or less conventionally armed. Also the industrial ship, agai iirc, can build an one new macross ship (the uber destructo beam ship of the colony fleet) a year. Increased production based on the ship size accordingly, but that is likely fan speculation where I read that.

@jaymz; In this case I'm taking the combat vessels from the Frontier anime and replacing them w/ the ones from Macross 2, IIRC a couple of them have heavy mount main guns (I'm away from my books right now).
By the series standards each "Big Ship" had a "Battle Section" that mimiced the original SDF-1 in their transformational and weapon capabilties, specifically they all had a main P-beam and could transform into a bipedal shape.
Yes the factory ship could produce 1 ship/year, but it still answers to the highest authority, The NUNS President, and they're going to be busy building new colony structures and repairing damaged ships.
I'm running this President as kinda paranoid and arch conservative, he wants to keep their presence unknown until they figure out where they are and where Earth is in relation to them. So he's trying to consolidate his personal and military power base.
Then while all this is going on our "Heroes(?)" are sent out on general long range recon in a altered M2 battleship (slightly less weaponry and some of the crew are the dregs of the fleet). This leads them to getting involved in back alley deals for weapons, equipment, drugs, etc. Maybe even ship upgrades using 3G tech.

keir451 wrote:@jaymz; In this case I'm taking the combat vessels from the Frontier anime and replacing them w/ the ones from Macross 2, IIRC a couple of them have heavy mount main guns (I'm away from my books right now).
By the series standards each "Big Ship" had a "Battle Section" that mimiced the original SDF-1 in their transformational and weapon capabilties, specifically they all had a main P-beam and could transform into a bipedal shape.
Yes the factory ship could produce 1 ship/year, but it still answers to the highest authority, The NUNS President, and they're going to be busy building new colony structures and repairing damaged ships.
I'm running this President as kinda paranoid and arch conservative, he wants to keep their presence unknown until they figure out where they are and where Earth is in relation to them. So he's trying to consolidate his personal and military power base.
Then while all this is going on our "Heroes(?)" are sent out on general long range recon in a altered M2 battleship (slightly less weaponry and some of the crew are the dregs of the fleet). This leads them to getting involved in back alley deals for weapons, equipment, drugs, etc. Maybe even ship upgrades using 3G tech.

Kier - I have seen both many times and have 7 (god help me) Only hte primary colony ship had the macross calss. the otehrs had a variety of carriers and frigates attached thus only 1 macross like ship per fleet. As for mac 2 ships, none of the non zentraedi ships had the uber destructo beam except the macross cannon ships which were few in number and in fact by PB stats none of them are much larger than the Mac7/Frontier Northampton frigate beyond hte Macross Cannon ships

keir451 wrote:@jaymz; In this case I'm taking the combat vessels from the Frontier anime and replacing them w/ the ones from Macross 2, IIRC a couple of them have heavy mount main guns (I'm away from my books right now).
By the series standards each "Big Ship" had a "Battle Section" that mimiced the original SDF-1 in their transformational and weapon capabilties, specifically they all had a main P-beam and could transform into a bipedal shape.
Yes the factory ship could produce 1 ship/year, but it still answers to the highest authority, The NUNS President, and they're going to be busy building new colony structures and repairing damaged ships.
I'm running this President as kinda paranoid and arch conservative, he wants to keep their presence unknown until they figure out where they are and where Earth is in relation to them. So he's trying to consolidate his personal and military power base.
Then while all this is going on our "Heroes(?)" are sent out on general long range recon in a altered M2 battleship (slightly less weaponry and some of the crew are the dregs of the fleet). This leads them to getting involved in back alley deals for weapons, equipment, drugs, etc. Maybe even ship upgrades using 3G tech.

Nice idea. You get to use your M2 game books.

That would be the colonial President.
NUNS is the military branch of the government.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

keir451 wrote:@jaymz; In this case I'm taking the combat vessels from the Frontier anime and replacing them w/ the ones from Macross 2, IIRC a couple of them have heavy mount main guns (I'm away from my books right now).
By the series standards each "Big Ship" had a "Battle Section" that mimiced the original SDF-1 in their transformational and weapon capabilties, specifically they all had a main P-beam and could transform into a bipedal shape.
Yes the factory ship could produce 1 ship/year, but it still answers to the highest authority, The NUNS President, and they're going to be busy building new colony structures and repairing damaged ships.
I'm running this President as kinda paranoid and arch conservative, he wants to keep their presence unknown until they figure out where they are and where Earth is in relation to them. So he's trying to consolidate his personal and military power base.
Then while all this is going on our "Heroes(?)" are sent out on general long range recon in a altered M2 battleship (slightly less weaponry and some of the crew are the dregs of the fleet). This leads them to getting involved in back alley deals for weapons, equipment, drugs, etc. Maybe even ship upgrades using 3G tech.

Nice idea. You get to use your M2 game books.

That would be the colonial President.
NUNS is the military branch of the government.

Thx, DK! I also stand corrected, I did mean the colonial president. My bad!

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:@jaymz; In this case I'm taking the combat vessels from the Frontier anime and replacing them w/ the ones from Macross 2, IIRC a couple of them have heavy mount main guns (I'm away from my books right now).
By the series standards each "Big Ship" had a "Battle Section" that mimiced the original SDF-1 in their transformational and weapon capabilties, specifically they all had a main P-beam and could transform into a bipedal shape.
Yes the factory ship could produce 1 ship/year, but it still answers to the highest authority, The NUNS President, and they're going to be busy building new colony structures and repairing damaged ships.
I'm running this President as kinda paranoid and arch conservative, he wants to keep their presence unknown until they figure out where they are and where Earth is in relation to them. So he's trying to consolidate his personal and military power base.
Then while all this is going on our "Heroes(?)" are sent out on general long range recon in a altered M2 battleship (slightly less weaponry and some of the crew are the dregs of the fleet). This leads them to getting involved in back alley deals for weapons, equipment, drugs, etc. Maybe even ship upgrades using 3G tech.

Kier - I have seen both many times and have 7 (god help me) Only hte primary colony ship had the macross calss. the otehrs had a variety of carriers and frigates attached thus only 1 macross like ship per fleet. As for mac 2 ships, none of the non zentraedi ships had the uber destructo beam except the macross cannon ships which were few in number and in fact by PB stats none of them are much larger than the Mac7/Frontier Northampton frigate beyond hte Macross Cannon ships

Good point, jaymz. I may be wrong, but I thought that every one of the "big Ships" from 7 had their own "battle sections"? I'll double check, but apparently this program was not used in Frontier.
Upon double checking my M2 Deck Plans the M2 ships DO mount heavy laser/energy weapons typically on the bow of the ship, but no "God guns", which is fine for what I intend .
Double Check Done: OK apparently on the http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/macross7-index.html (macross mecha manual site), there appear to "battles" attached to each of the major ships. Tho' this is actually irrelevant as I'm using the Frontier as my colony vessel so there is only the one "battle". The rest of the warships are exclusively M2 warships (the MM site has too many places where the number of weapons is simply "x many" and other info is lacking). I'm also using a mixture of Macross Plus (strictly the fighters VF-19 & VF-22/23 variants) and M2 fighters but replacing ALL the destroids w/M2 destroids.
On another note; Shame on you jaymz for actually owning M7!
How about combat wise? How do you guys think the M2 ships would fare against some of the 3G ships? How do you think they'll react to UWW magic ships & attack spells if they fight?

Kier - not trying to be a pain in teh butt but again teh only colony ships that have a battle connected are the primary colony ships. Factory ships et al are connected to either a smaller carrier or frigate. You may want to go recheck M3 The stat block's last line tells you what it is socked too.

Frontier isn't setup quite the same way as the & fleet. Frontier is one primary "island" with a slew of smaller islands attached and no real independent colony ships other than the escort capital ships

As for M2 ships against 3G......Warshields are typically on par with the UN Spacy designs and similar in size. Though they may have more MDC and pound for pound have more firepower they carry less in the way of fighters. The Zentraedi class ships of M2 would own anything they faced in the 3G if you are giving them any of the Zentraedi ships, just on weapon range and the overall number of weapons carried in comparison to 3G battleships etc not to mention the vast number of mecha they also carry in comparison to their 3G counterparts. The 3G will have them on the number of ships available though and fighter to fighter the 3G will have the advantage in the way of armour, shields, speed and firepower typically so the Macross group will NEED those larger numbers of mecha for sure.


EDIT - upon further review you better give them Zentraedi ships because the only thing that has a hope in hell in standing up to 3G ships is the UN Spacy Corvette and even then it would lose just do to being rather fragile. Other wise none of the ships have enough armour to survive a sustained assault. Even the Macross Cannon ships would essentially be toast after their first volley of the uber cannons.

I own M7 .... well part of it. Was not able to get tapes after a time, the last preview was for the ep when they re-make "Love Do You Remember" using Mellen in the part of LMM and Basla for HI.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I own M7 .... well part of it. Was not able to get tapes after a time, the last preview was for the ep when they re-make "Love Do You Remember" using Mellen in the part of LMM and Basla for HI.

Well there are very few ways to get it and trust me drew.....you are not missing a thing.......*small cringe*

jaymz wrote:Kier - not trying to be a pain in teh butt but again teh only colony ships that have a battle connected are the primary colony ships. Factory ships et al are connected to either a smaller carrier or frigate. You may want to go recheck M3 The stat block's last line tells you what it is socked too.

Frontier isn't setup quite the same way as the & fleet. Frontier is one primary "island" with a slew of smaller islands attached and no real independent colony ships other than the escort capital ships

As for M2 ships against 3G......Warshields are typically on par with the UN Spacy designs and similar in size. Though they may have more MDC and pound for pound have more firepower they carry less in the way of fighters. The Zentraedi class ships of M2 would own anything they faced in the 3G if you are giving them any of the Zentraedi ships, just on weapon range and the overall number of weapons carried in comparison to 3G battleships etc not to mention the vast number of mecha they also carry in comparison to their 3G counterparts. The 3G will have them on the number of ships available though and fighter to fighter the 3G will have the advantage in the way of armour, shields, speed and firepower typically so the Macross group will NEED those larger numbers of mecha for sure.


EDIT - upon further review you better give them Zentraedi ships because the only thing that has a hope in hell in standing up to 3G ships is the UN Spacy Corvette and even then it would lose just do to being rather fragile. Other wise none of the ships have enough armour to survive a sustained assault. Even the Macross Cannon ships would essentially be toast after their first volley of the uber cannons.

You're right, my bad for not looking closer. Eyes're failing 'cause it's late here (12:02 Am EST) & I'm studying for a Medical Terminology exam as well.
I'm still kinda on the fence about sending any of the refitted UN Spacy Zentraedi ship thru w/ them, tho' I guess they could just "stay at home" at the colony.
How long (theoretically speaking) would you think it would take the UN Spacy forces to reverse enginner the 3G tech like variable force fields (UNS only uses a 'static shield system' w/ Pin Point Barriers AFAIK) and other weapon systems? I'm placing the groups like the CCW & TGE as (possibly) centuries more advanced in certain areas than the UNS forces. Namely; Gravitics, sheilds, armor & the like.

Reverse engineering, In a MF NUNS background- 1-10 years to put the VFF into production.
In a M2 UNS background- 2-15 years
[figuring out how they work and then making the production facilities for them.]

If they had Rodney McKay, by the end of the episode they would have a prototype.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Reverse engineering, In a MF NUNS background- 1-10 years to put the VFF into production.
In a M2 UNS background- 2-15 years
[figuring out how they work and then making the production facilities for them.]

If they had Rodney McKay, by the end of the episode they would have a prototype.

M2 ships don't have shields at all. Weapon system are either on par or just lagging behind a bit in the range department (as statted but I don;t like or use those stats myself). If they can manage to get ahold of a shield generator it wouldnt take long at all to incorporate.VF-2SS with SAP isn't that less armoured than a 3G fighter. In an even number of ships scenario M2 stuff should be able to more or less hold it's own. At leastthe first time around. You may want to at least send a few Zentraedi ships with them. I;d suggest destroyers.

jaymz wrote:M2 ships don't have shields at all. Weapon system are either on par or just lagging behind a bit in the range department (as statted but I don;t like or use those stats myself). If they can manage to get ahold of a shield generator it wouldnt take long at all to incorporate.VF-2SS with SAP isn't that less armoured than a 3G fighter. In an even number of ships scenario M2 stuff should be able to more or less hold it's own. At leastthe first time around. You may want to at least send a few Zentraedi ships with them. I;d suggest destroyers.

While that is technically true, it is also partially false. The SDF-1 did develop a shield and I'm using the colony ships from MAcross Frontier which do have shields tho' so I' allowing that tech to be known.
A VF-2SS is alternately better armored than, equal to and less armored than some of the fighters in the 3G. It all depends upon which fighter they're fighting against. Even then dice rolls could change the entire situation.
Nah I really don't want to send any converted Zentraedi ships they're a little too much for what I want, but I'm probably gonna send thru a couple of Macross cannons. If they want they could reproduce Zentraedi tech if they feel the need.
The real idea here is that all the fleet ships from the JN Macross are swapped w/the ones from M2 but the colony mission is still the same.

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:M2 ships don't have shields at all. Weapon system are either on par or just lagging behind a bit in the range department (as statted but I don;t like or use those stats myself). If they can manage to get ahold of a shield generator it wouldnt take long at all to incorporate.VF-2SS with SAP isn't that less armoured than a 3G fighter. In an even number of ships scenario M2 stuff should be able to more or less hold it's own. At leastthe first time around. You may want to at least send a few Zentraedi ships with them. I;d suggest destroyers.

While that is technically true, it is also partially false. The SDF-1 did develop a shield and I'm using the colony ships from MAcross Frontier which do have shields tho' so I' allowing that tech to be known.
A VF-2SS is alternately better armored than, equal to and less armored than some of the fighters in the 3G. It all depends upon which fighter they're fighting against. Even then dice rolls could change the entire situation.
Nah I really don't want to send any converted Zentraedi ships they're a little too much for what I want, but I'm probably gonna send thru a couple of Macross cannons. If they want they could reproduce Zentraedi tech if they feel the need.
The real idea here is that all the fleet ships from the JN Macross are swapped w/the ones from M2 but the colony mission is still the same.

Which ships have shields. The only ships that have shields I am aware of are teh BIG class ships (SDF Macross, Megaroad and New Macross Class) and that's about it. None of the smaller ships have them that I am aware of (though for some reason people statting them out on fan sites seem to think they do)

The only shield some of the "colony" ships have are a physical dome like structure/shield.

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:M2 ships don't have shields at all. Weapon system are either on par or just lagging behind a bit in the range department (as statted but I don;t like or use those stats myself). If they can manage to get ahold of a shield generator it wouldnt take long at all to incorporate.VF-2SS with SAP isn't that less armoured than a 3G fighter. In an even number of ships scenario M2 stuff should be able to more or less hold it's own. At leastthe first time around. You may want to at least send a few Zentraedi ships with them. I;d suggest destroyers.

While that is technically true, it is also partially false. The SDF-1 did develop a shield and I'm using the colony ships from MAcross Frontier which do have shields tho' so I' allowing that tech to be known.
A VF-2SS is alternately better armored than, equal to and less armored than some of the fighters in the 3G. It all depends upon which fighter they're fighting against. Even then dice rolls could change the entire situation.
Nah I really don't want to send any converted Zentraedi ships they're a little too much for what I want, but I'm probably gonna send thru a couple of Macross cannons. If they want they could reproduce Zentraedi tech if they feel the need.
The real idea here is that all the fleet ships from the JN Macross are swapped w/the ones from M2 but the colony mission is still the same.

Which ships have shields. The only ships that have shields I am aware of are teh BIG class ships (SDF Macross, Megaroad and New Macross Class) and that's about it. None of the smaller ships have them that I am aware of (though for some reason people statting them out on fan sites seem to think they do)

The only shield some of the "colony" ships have are a physical dome like structure/shield.

True the only ships to have shields were the big ships, that's what I meant. None of the smaller ships have shield tech installed. The large colony vessels do have the energy shield as well as the dome. In Macross Frontier when the Vajra attack the Frontier colony ship we see them close the dome and deploy the force field. Also the Vf-19 & 22 are equipped w/ a pinpoint barrier system.
Again, I'm using the Frontier colony ship (the main island ship) as my colony vessel so it has shield tech and since I'm also including VF-19 & 22's they'll have the pinpoint barrier systems too, on the M3 site they refer to it as a "Total barrier" and give it "short ranges" (most likely just the main colony island).

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:M2 ships don't have shields at all. Weapon system are either on par or just lagging behind a bit in the range department (as statted but I don;t like or use those stats myself). If they can manage to get ahold of a shield generator it wouldnt take long at all to incorporate.VF-2SS with SAP isn't that less armoured than a 3G fighter. In an even number of ships scenario M2 stuff should be able to more or less hold it's own. At leastthe first time around. You may want to at least send a few Zentraedi ships with them. I;d suggest destroyers.

While that is technically true, it is also partially false. The SDF-1 did develop a shield and I'm using the colony ships from MAcross Frontier which do have shields tho' so I' allowing that tech to be known.
A VF-2SS is alternately better armored than, equal to and less armored than some of the fighters in the 3G. It all depends upon which fighter they're fighting against. Even then dice rolls could change the entire situation.
Nah I really don't want to send any converted Zentraedi ships they're a little too much for what I want, but I'm probably gonna send thru a couple of Macross cannons. If they want they could reproduce Zentraedi tech if they feel the need.
The real idea here is that all the fleet ships from the JN Macross are swapped w/the ones from M2 but the colony mission is still the same.

Which ships have shields. The only ships that have shields I am aware of are teh BIG class ships (SDF Macross, Megaroad and New Macross Class) and that's about it. None of the smaller ships have them that I am aware of (though for some reason people statting them out on fan sites seem to think they do)

The only shield some of the "colony" ships have are a physical dome like structure/shield.

True the only ships to have shields were the big ships, that's what I meant. None of the smaller ships have shield tech installed. The large colony vessels do have the energy shield as well as the dome. In Macross Frontier when the Vajra attack the Frontier colony ship we see them close the dome and deploy the force field. Also the Vf-19 & 22 are equipped w/ a pinpoint barrier system.
Again, I'm using the Frontier colony ship (the main island ship) as my colony vessel so it has shield tech and since I'm also including VF-19 & 22's they'll have the pinpoint barrier systems too, on the M3 site they refer to it as a "Total barrier" and give it "short ranges" (most likely just the main colony island).

Actually those are meant for the macros ships not the colony since both are part of the one tech readout. What you saw in Frontier wasn't a force field but some sort to of self sealing of the hull when punctured as I recall.

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:M2 ships don't have shields at all. Weapon system are either on par or just lagging behind a bit in the range department (as statted but I don;t like or use those stats myself). If they can manage to get ahold of a shield generator it wouldnt take long at all to incorporate.VF-2SS with SAP isn't that less armoured than a 3G fighter. In an even number of ships scenario M2 stuff should be able to more or less hold it's own. At leastthe first time around. You may want to at least send a few Zentraedi ships with them. I;d suggest destroyers.

While that is technically true, it is also partially false. The SDF-1 did develop a shield and I'm using the colony ships from MAcross Frontier which do have shields tho' so I' allowing that tech to be known.
A VF-2SS is alternately better armored than, equal to and less armored than some of the fighters in the 3G. It all depends upon which fighter they're fighting against. Even then dice rolls could change the entire situation.
Nah I really don't want to send any converted Zentraedi ships they're a little too much for what I want, but I'm probably gonna send thru a couple of Macross cannons. If they want they could reproduce Zentraedi tech if they feel the need.
The real idea here is that all the fleet ships from the JN Macross are swapped w/the ones from M2 but the colony mission is still the same.

Which ships have shields. The only ships that have shields I am aware of are teh BIG class ships (SDF Macross, Megaroad and New Macross Class) and that's about it. None of the smaller ships have them that I am aware of (though for some reason people statting them out on fan sites seem to think they do)

The only shield some of the "colony" ships have are a physical dome like structure/shield.

True the only ships to have shields were the big ships, that's what I meant. None of the smaller ships have shield tech installed. The large colony vessels do have the energy shield as well as the dome. In Macross Frontier when the Vajra attack the Frontier colony ship we see them close the dome and deploy the force field. Also the Vf-19 & 22 are equipped w/ a pinpoint barrier system.
Again, I'm using the Frontier colony ship (the main island ship) as my colony vessel so it has shield tech and since I'm also including VF-19 & 22's they'll have the pinpoint barrier systems too, on the M3 site they refer to it as a "Total barrier" and give it "short ranges" (most likely just the main colony island).

Actually those are meant for the macros ships not the colony since both are part of the one tech readout. What you saw in Frontier wasn't a force field but some sort to of self sealing of the hull when punctured as I recall.

I remember the self sealing puncture, but I also remember in the final battle that the colony ship put up a force field over the dome as well. The M3 states that both the Battles and the colony vessels have the Total Barrier, so I'm going w/that.

keir451 wrote:I remember the self sealing puncture, but I also remember in the final battle that the colony ship put up a force field over the dome as well. The M3 states that both the Battles and the colony vessels have the Total Barrier, so I'm going w/that.

Ah that yes well my understanding was the Frontier Island 1 is the only colony ship to in fact have a full barrier system, but to each their own interpretation of the material

jaymz wrote:

keir451 wrote:I remember the self sealing puncture, but I also remember in the final battle that the colony ship put up a force field over the dome as well. The M3 states that both the Battles and the colony vessels have the Total Barrier, so I'm going w/that.

Ah that yes well my understanding was the Frontier Island 1 is the only colony ship to in fact have a full barrier system, but to each their own interpretation of the material

It is hard to tell as all it really states for both Colony 5 Macross 11 and Frontier 1 is "Countermeasures: Pin-Point barrier; Total Barrier (to short ranges)".That could mean that the Battles only have the PPB and the Colony Islands have the Total Barrier. Either way that still means the UN Spacy is familiar w/ a version of Force Field tech, now the FFs in 3G may operate upon different principles, it's a "grey area" that I'll have to house rule on when it comes up.

I can see where the Macross FF are based in Sub-Space Fold Tech, while the 3G FF are based in Gravtic Tech. Since these are their area of specialties in the underlying theory. Thus each tech base would have a different type of FF generators.

Since I stumbled onto this one while wandering the boards on a slow night, I figured I would chime in on a few aspects that relate to the coverage we've provided on M3.

jaymz wrote:IIRC most colony fleets have only ONE ship with the heavy uber destructo beam weapon The rest are more or less conventionally armed.

Eh... it varies. "Battle" sections are only docked to the main colony dome, so the number of super beam weapons in a colony fleet is essentially the same as the number of actual colony ships in that fleet. The most ever seen in a single fleet to date is the three dome ships and Battle sections in the Macross-5 fleet... though Battle sections without City sections have been produced for planetary defense (e.g. Macross-13).

keir451 wrote:Double Check Done: OK apparently on the http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/macross7-index.html (macross mecha manual site), there appear to "battles" attached to each of the major ships.

Nope... the only ships that dock a Battle section are the City sections. I'd guess that you might be mistaking the much smaller but somewhat similar-looking Uraga-class escort battle carrier for a Battle section, since the other large ships in a Macross-7 style fleet (Three Star, etc.) are docked to those, or Guantanamo-class stealth carriers, or in a few cases, Northampton-class stealth frigates, as shown in the line art and mentioned in the stats block.

keir451 wrote:The rest of the warships are exclusively M2 warships (the MM site has too many places where the number of weapons is simply "x many" and other info is lacking).

's not our fault... that's just the way they're described in the source material. Since there tends to be a bit of variation in any class of ships as technology and the local fleet's needs change, it's to be expected. Either way, it's pretty rare for Macross's creators to get SO deep into the details that they would list the number of close-in defense guns on a ship over a kilometer long, or something like that. So "many x" is something that crops up a LOT in starships and whatnot.

keir451 wrote:How long (theoretically speaking) would you think it would take the UN Spacy forces to reverse enginner the 3G tech like variable force fields (UNS only uses a 'static shield system' w/ Pin Point Barriers AFAIK) and other weapon systems?

Not long, IMO... they were pretty quick to analyze and reverse-engineer the overtechnology from the Macross, and that was when all they had to work with was "modern" late-90's tech. It only took them a year to figure out super dimension energy weapons, and they figured out and replicated the thermonuclear reaction power technology in two, and only another two to miniaturize it. It only took the UN Spacy a couple months to reverse engineer the Varauta's spirita absorption tech in 2045. If they got their hands on a working 3G variable force field, they'd probably have it sorted out in a year or less.

keir451 wrote:I remember the self sealing puncture, but I also remember in the final battle that the colony ship put up a force field over the dome as well. The M3 states that both the Battles and the colony vessels have the Total Barrier, so I'm going w/that.

Yeah, that's an oversight we really ought to fix... the coverage is for the combined Battle and City section together. Coverage of the Battle section as a separate craft only lists a pin-point barrier system, even as late as the Battle Frontier. Thus, it would appear that a total barrier system (which may or may not be the repulsion field in Macross Frontier's dialogue) is something mounted on the City section only, though the field's coverage seems to extend over docked Islands as well... though the Islands may actually have their own generators, being that each one is bigger than Macross-7's City section.

Hey Seto, thx for chiming in! Yeah after double double checking I realized I was mistaking the Uragas for the battles.
I don't blame you guys for the lack of info on the ships, you can only translate what the creators publish. If it ain't published you can't translate it, neh? As an alterante I sometimes use the fan stats from the steelfalcon site, but alot of his links are defunct so it was easier to switch to M2 ships.
Yeah it's hard to tell how the FFs are distributed, but thanks for the clarification kind sir!
Valid observation on the ability of the Macross people to reverse engineer tech, they do have a history of doing that don't they.

keir451 wrote:Hey Seto, thx for chiming in! Yeah after double double checking I realized I was mistaking the Uragas for the battles.

It's an easy mistake to make, since the two come off looking very similar from the front.

keir451 wrote:I don't blame you guys for the lack of info on the ships, you can only translate what the creators publish. If it ain't published you can't translate it, neh? As an alterante I sometimes use the fan stats from the steelfalcon site, but alot of his links are defunct so it was easier to switch to M2 ships.

Yeah, we do our best to print what the creators publish, which unfortunately means that a lot of the time we're stuck with "many x", since a lot of the more massive ships have more gun retractable gun turrets than you can readily shake a stick at. Usually the smaller the ship, the more definite its numbers are, though it's occasionally possible to have a decent guess based on the animation (which is what Palladium's writers did for the Robotech RPG). Fortunately, I'm making tolerably quick progress through the new info from Macross Chronicle, so we'll try to get a bunch of that up next time I can catch hold of Mr March to work on it with him.

keir451 wrote:Yeah it's hard to tell how the FFs are distributed, but thanks for the clarification kind sir!

Barrier tech in Macross is kind of a twitchy thing... it draws HUGE amounts of power (the VF-19's pin-point barrier consumes 60% of the plane's reactor output) and you can't shoot through it or launch fighters while it's up like you can with the more traditional SF energy shields.

keir451 wrote:Valid observation on the ability of the Macross people to reverse engineer tech, they do have a history of doing that don't they.

Yeah, their engineering know-how is kind of terrifying in a way... start-to-finish, the time it took to engineer the first variable fighter was 2 years 9 months.

Thought of a potential advantage the Macross Military might have. They, unlike the humans of the CCW, might still have the info of the Navajo code talkers in their databases, heck if one wanted to go even further you could say that many of the Native American tribes survived (including the Navajo) and the Navajo language could be used for code again. Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm

Kier - PM'ed

Also your sig is COMPLTETELY 100% correct about Bubblegum Crisis So much so I have started statting out stuff from THAT too

jaymz wrote:Kier - PM'ed

Also your sig is COMPLTETELY 100% correct about Bubblegum Crisis So much so I have started statting out stuff from THAT too

Message received & read . Good links, now if he'd do the Frontier colony fleet I'd be happier, oh well can't have it all (curses foiled again!!)
I so enjoy BGC that my GM & I used them in a game of ours and our characters married them (ALL of them including the sexaroids that were killed. Looooong story behind that )

keir451 wrote:

jaymz wrote:Kier - PM'ed

Also your sig is COMPLTETELY 100% correct about Bubblegum Crisis So much so I have started statting out stuff from THAT too

Message received & read . Good links, now if he'd do the Frontier colony fleet I'd be happier, oh well can't have it all (curses foiled again!!)
I so enjoy BGC that my GM & I used them in a game of ours and our characters married them (ALL of them including the sexaroids that were killed. Looooong story behind that )

Yeah he hasn't updated in a while so that is likely why it isn't there.

Oh and in regards to BGC *cough*terrain hopper*cough*red cyborg*cough*samas/predator*cough*

keir451 wrote:Thought of a potential advantage the Macross Military might have. They, unlike the humans of the CCW, might still have the info of the Navajo code talkers in their databases, heck if one wanted to go even further you could say that many of the Native American tribes survived (including the Navajo) and the Navajo language could be used for code again. Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm

Not sure where you get that the Tounges spell wouldn't translate it. It would, easially.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:Thought of a potential advantage the Macross Military might have. They, unlike the humans of the CCW, might still have the info of the Navajo code talkers in their databases, heck if one wanted to go even further you could say that many of the Native American tribes survived (including the Navajo) and the Navajo language could be used for code again. Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm

Not sure where you get that the Tounges spell wouldn't translate it. It would, easially.

Well it would if spoken anyway. Now if the words are used in a haphazard fashion then while they would understand the words the meaning and context would essentially be undiscernable I think

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:Thought of a potential advantage the Macross Military might have. They, unlike the humans of the CCW, might still have the info of the Navajo code talkers in their databases, heck if one wanted to go even further you could say that many of the Native American tribes survived (including the Navajo) and the Navajo language could be used for code again. Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm

Not sure where you get that the Tounges spell wouldn't translate it. It would, easially.

Well it would if spoken anyway. Now if the words are used in a haphazard fashion then while they would understand the words the meaning and context would essentially be undiscernable I think

Eyes of Thoth takes care of written

Also: The spell says "Perfectly understands".

Now Perfect is a very clear word. It works, and it works dispite any and all attempts to obsfucate it. There is littearlly no condition or circumstance, baring preventing a wizard with this spell from hearing it, that will prevent said wizard from understanding the full meaning and intent of any spoken diolage /the way the user ment it/. You can deliberately speak broken, but the spell will still convey your full meaning.

Perfect is a very rarely used word in magic, but it's used here, and it's therefore quite clear.

EDIT: The only safe way of communication in the three galaxies would be to have either EBA armor with built in radios or radio bionic implants (which tottally need to exsist), to be designed to block sound when desired from traveling outside, and the radio would encode the spoken diolage then transmit it in an encoded micro-burst to the targets, which would then be set up to decrypt and play it, again, so only they can hear it.

Essentially set up so nondesired people simply can't hear the diolage. It's the only way to be sure.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:Thought of a potential advantage the Macross Military might have. They, unlike the humans of the CCW, might still have the info of the Navajo code talkers in their databases, heck if one wanted to go even further you could say that many of the Native American tribes survived (including the Navajo) and the Navajo language could be used for code again. Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm

Not sure where you get that the Tounges spell wouldn't translate it. It would, easially.

Well it would if spoken anyway. Now if the words are used in a haphazard fashion then while they would understand the words the meaning and context would essentially be undiscernable I think

Eyes of Thoth takes care of written

Also: The spell says "Perfectly understands".

Now Perfect is a very clear word. It works, and it works dispite any and all attempts to obsfucate it. There is littearlly no condition or circumstance, baring preventing a wizard with this spell from hearing it, that will prevent said wizard from understanding the full meaning and intent of any spoken diolage /the way the user ment it/. You can deliberately speak broken, but the spell will still convey your full meaning.

Perfect is a very rarely used word in magic, but it's used here, and it's therefore quite clear.

EDIT: The only safe way of communication in the three galaxies would be to have either EBA armor with built in radios or radio bionic implants (which tottally need to exsist), to be designed to block sound when desired from traveling outside, and the radio would encode the spoken diolage then transmit it in an encoded micro-burst to the targets, which would then be set up to decrypt and play it, again, so only they can hear it.
E ssentially set up so nondesired people simply can't hear the diolage. It's the only way to be sure.

That is an incorrect statement. The spell, while it may let you perfectly undestand the verbal meaning of a spoken word, would not let you understand the meaning of a code that is parsed out of portions of the words. Case in point; the Navajo would use their words for let's say; new, apple, venison and year, the spell caster could perfectly understand that those are the meanings of the Navajo words but would not know that the code is to take the first letter of each English word to get the word "navy". Even another soldier who perfectly understood Navajo was not able to decipher the meaning of the code. All the spell description says is that you can understaand and speak the language perfectly (98% proficiency) it does not allow a person to decipher code. The equipment you described effectively already exist in Rifts, PA already have radio systems in them and cyborgs can get radio implants each w/ encrytion/decription systems built in. This is another area of "common sense" wherein one realizes that the militaries/ mercenaries already use this technique.

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:Thought of a potential advantage the Macross Military might have. They, unlike the humans of the CCW, might still have the info of the Navajo code talkers in their databases, heck if one wanted to go even further you could say that many of the Native American tribes survived (including the Navajo) and the Navajo language could be used for code again. Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm

Not sure where you get that the Tounges spell wouldn't translate it. It would, easially.

Well it would if spoken anyway. Now if the words are used in a haphazard fashion then while they would understand the words the meaning and context would essentially be undiscernable I think

Eyes of Thoth takes care of written

Also: The spell says "Perfectly understands".

Now Perfect is a very clear word. It works, and it works dispite any and all attempts to obsfucate it. There is littearlly no condition or circumstance, baring preventing a wizard with this spell from hearing it, that will prevent said wizard from understanding the full meaning and intent of any spoken diolage /the way the user ment it/. You can deliberately speak broken, but the spell will still convey your full meaning.

Perfect is a very rarely used word in magic, but it's used here, and it's therefore quite clear.

EDIT: The only safe way of communication in the three galaxies would be to have either EBA armor with built in radios or radio bionic implants (which tottally need to exsist), to be designed to block sound when desired from traveling outside, and the radio would encode the spoken diolage then transmit it in an encoded micro-burst to the targets, which would then be set up to decrypt and play it, again, so only they can hear it.
E ssentially set up so nondesired people simply can't hear the diolage. It's the only way to be sure.

That is an incorrect statement. The spell, while it may let you perfectly undestand the verbal meaning of a spoken word, would not let you understand the meaning of a code that is parsed out of portions of the words. Case in point; the Navajo would use their words for let's say; new, apple, venison and year, the spell caster could perfectly understand that those are the meanings of the Navajo words but would not know that the code is to take the first letter of each English word to get the word "navy". Even another soldier who perfectly understood Navajo was not able to decipher the meaning of the code. All the spell description says is that you can understaand and speak the language perfectly (98% proficiency) it does not allow a person to decipher code. The equipment you described effectively already exist in Rifts, PA already have radio systems in them and cyborgs can get radio implants each w/ encrytion/decription systems built in. This is another area of "common sense" wherein one realizes that the militaries/ mercenaries already use this technique.

The key words in the spell are "Perfectly Understand". this does not leave any room for Codes to work to fool the caster.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:From what I gather, the UN spacy would be willing to deal with alien species more or less whatever they look like, but are very mistrustful in general.

In short, "First Contact" will more or less define how things go.

If a skirmish breaks out, the UN spacy is likely to put them on the Enemies list for a long time.

i agree with this plus sometime ago like last year we has a THE FIRST THREE ARE OLD R.E..f , R.D.F, A.S.C , than the new books The U.E.E.F / macross / macross II books A.S.C the N.U.N and macross zero add the ships in Three Galaxies on god that was crazy fun but 23 player!!!!! it got to the point that C.W.W saw this small power block as elites forces , then space operation forces ( magic addition ) with the zentadi force and zetran that was soooooo FUN!!!!

@Nekira; Bluntly put, Bullsh*t. The spell only grants the user the ability to speak & understand the language perfectly. This means if it is used in a given conversation and the person (let's use a human Special Forces soldier for example) turns to another and says Sierra, October, Uniform, Tango, Hotel, ALL the mage is going to get is the individual meaning of those words, not that the soldier is using them as a code to mean "Patrol south" or "Look south", maybe it really means something else entirely the mage WILL NOT KNOW. Codes are a seperate skill area defined under cryptoghraphy, just being able to speak a language DOES NOT immediately grant you the ability to break codes or read an individuals mind.

keir451 wrote:@Nekira; Bluntly put, Bullsh*t. The spell only grants the user the ability to speak & understand the language perfectly. This means if it is used in a given conversation and the person (let's use a human Special Forces soldier for example) turns to another and says Sierra, October, Uniform, Tango, Hotel, ALL the mage is going to get is the individual meaning of those words, not that the soldier is using them as a code to mean "Patrol south" or "Look south", maybe it really means something else entirely the mage WILL NOT KNOW. Codes are a seperate skill area defined under cryptoghraphy, just being able to speak a language DOES NOT immediately grant you the ability to break codes or read an individuals mind.

Except that a code is nothing but an attempt to obsfucate the meaning of a language. Therefore, a perfect effect to understand a lanauage bypasses the obsfucation.

Also, simmer down. This is a polite conversation.

Kier - after rereading the spell I have to agree with Nekira (and we dont always agree on rulings ) The spell specifies they would perfectly understand what is being said. That infers the meaning of what is being said not just what the words are.

Also yeah your last post did come across as a bit harsh dude. May not have been your intention but text is funny that way.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:@Nekira; Bluntly put, Bullsh*t. The spell only grants the user the ability to speak & understand the language perfectly. This means if it is used in a given conversation and the person (let's use a human Special Forces soldier for example) turns to another and says Sierra, October, Uniform, Tango, Hotel, ALL the mage is going to get is the individual meaning of those words, not that the soldier is using them as a code to mean "Patrol south" or "Look south", maybe it really means something else entirely the mage WILL NOT KNOW. Codes are a seperate skill area defined under cryptoghraphy, just being able to speak a language DOES NOT immediately grant you the ability to break codes or read an individuals mind.

Except that a code is nothing but an attempt to obsfucate the meaning of a language. Therefore, a perfect effect to understand a lanauage bypasses the obsfucation.

Also, simmer down. This is a polite conversation.

The spell merely gramts the caster the ability to understand other languages, namely (as I said before) if I use a series of individual words the cast will ONLY know their individual meanings NOT that you're supposed to take the 1st or 2nd or what ever LETTERS out to form another word. ALL you can do is speak the language as if you were born to it, it does NOT allow you to read another persons mind and know what they're thinking. During WW2 the Japanese tried to use a Navajo soldier to decode the Windtalkers transmissions, while he understood the individual meanings of the words he did not know the CODE, nor would ANY spellcaster. ALL they would get is a perfcet understanding of the individual words meanings NOT how they fit into a code.
Pg 177 Rifts RPG, Tongues, "The magic allows the character to perfectly understand and speak all spoken languages; 98% proficiency."
That means there is still a 2% chance of screwing up, also nowhere does the spell state "decrypt codes", read minds, etc.
Your statement bears no weight and is fallacious.

Hi there!

keir451 wrote: Even a language translation spell won't help because the caster would only hear the words and not understand the meaning of what was being said.

Not that the Japanese or the Germans didn't use codes within codes (see Midway, or "we will attack THX81..."...
now what the heck is THX81?), nor there are cultures which are extinct, and their existence, language/culture, what
is more, even anatomy (were they speaking with sound or...?) is know for only one major power in the 3Gs...

Whereas navajos are humans.

Also, making up an artifical language (see Tolkien's languages, but I also own a (K)hamlet in Klingon... )

On the other hand, encryption in the 3 Galaxies, where every major power uses magic/psionic (object read or
clairvoyance... Imagine a scenario, where dozens or even hundred psionics are concentrating on the next move
of the enemy...) must be a very hard thing.

Adios
KLM

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:@Nekira; Bluntly put, Bullsh*t. The spell only grants the user the ability to speak & understand the language perfectly. This means if it is used in a given conversation and the person (let's use a human Special Forces soldier for example) turns to another and says Sierra, October, Uniform, Tango, Hotel, ALL the mage is going to get is the individual meaning of those words, not that the soldier is using them as a code to mean "Patrol south" or "Look south", maybe it really means something else entirely the mage WILL NOT KNOW. Codes are a seperate skill area defined under cryptoghraphy, just being able to speak a language DOES NOT immediately grant you the ability to break codes or read an individuals mind.

Except that a code is nothing but an attempt to obsfucate the meaning of a language. Therefore, a perfect effect to understand a lanauage bypasses the obsfucation.

Also, simmer down. This is a polite conversation.

The spell merely gramts the caster the ability to understand other languages, namely (as I said before) if I use a series of individual words the cast will ONLY know their individual meanings NOT that you're supposed to take the 1st or 2nd or what ever LETTERS out to form another word. ALL you can do is speak the language as if you were born to it, it does NOT allow you to read another persons mind and know what they're thinking. During WW2 the Japanese tried to use a Navajo soldier to decode the Windtalkers transmissions, while he understood the individual meanings of the words he did not know the CODE, nor would ANY spellcaster. ALL they would get is a perfcet understanding of the individual words meanings NOT how they fit into a code.
Pg 177 Rifts RPG, Tongues, "The magic allows the character to perfectly understand and speak all spoken languages; 98% proficiency."
That means there is still a 2% chance of screwing up, also nowhere does the spell state "decrypt codes", read minds, etc.
Your statement bears no weight and is fallacious.

Yes, there's a 2% chance of screwing up. I suppose you could call for a roll.

If you roll a 99 or 100, the caster fails to understand the code. Then again they would anyway.

Anyway, it dosn't have to read minds. all it does is read the meaning laden in a word.

Here's the problem: languages change over time. New words are entered. Old words drop out and are forgotton. Exisiting words gain new meanings.

So what does the spell do to keep up? Read the current dictionary?

No.

All it does is take the meaning the speaker puts into the sound of the words, then conveys that meaning to the caster.

Let me ask you this: Does this spell let you understand slang terms?

How is this any different from a code?

All either one is is taking a word and giving it a new meaning.

Hi there!

Nekira Sudacne wrote:All it does is take the meaning the speaker puts into the sound of the words, then conveys that meaning to the caster.

All it takes is a comm officer, who does not know, what turtle means in THIS message.

Adios
KLM

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

keir451 wrote:@Nekira; Bluntly put, Bullsh*t. The spell only grants the user the ability to speak & understand the language perfectly. This means if it is used in a given conversation and the person (let's use a human Special Forces soldier for example) turns to another and says Sierra, October, Uniform, Tango, Hotel, ALL the mage is going to get is the individual meaning of those words, not that the soldier is using them as a code to mean "Patrol south" or "Look south", maybe it really means something else entirely the mage WILL NOT KNOW. Codes are a seperate skill area defined under cryptoghraphy, just being able to speak a language DOES NOT immediately grant you the ability to break codes or read an individuals mind.

Except that a code is nothing but an attempt to obsfucate the meaning of a language. Therefore, a perfect effect to understand a lanauage bypasses the obsfucation.

Also, simmer down. This is a polite conversation.

The spell merely gramts the caster the ability to understand other languages, namely (as I said before) if I use a series of individual words the caster will ONLY know their individual meanings NOT that you're supposed to take the 1st or 2nd or what ever LETTERS out to form another word. ALL you can do is speak the language as if you were born to it, it does NOT allow you to read another persons mind and know what they're thinking. During WW2 the Japanese tried to use a Navajo soldier to decode the Windtalkers transmissions, while he understood the individual meanings of the words he did not know the CODE, nor would ANY spellcaster. Pg 177 Rifts RPG, Tongues, "The magic allows the character to perfectly understand and speak all spoken languages; 98% proficiency."
That means there is still a 2% chance of screwing up, also nowhere does the spell state "decrypt codes", read minds, etc.
Your statement bears no weight and is fallacious.

Yes, there's a 2% chance of screwing up. I suppose you could call for a roll.

If you roll a 99 or 100, the caster fails to understand the code. Then again they would anyway.

Anyway, it dosn't have to read minds. all it does is read the meaning laden in a word.

Here's the problem: languages change over time. New words are entered. Old words drop out and are forgotton. Exisiting words gain new meanings.

So what does the spell do to keep up? Read the current dictionary?

No.

All it does is take the meaning the speaker puts into the sound of the words, then conveys that meaning to the caster.

Let me ask you this: Does this spell let you understand slang terms?

How is this any different from a code?

All either one is is taking a word and giving it a new meaning.

Slang terms, to me, fall into that 2% area, the caster would understand the words meaning, but the context of the slang might throw him off for a moment. This still does not negate the casters inability to understand a code, to re-use my earlier example if another character speaks the words Sierra October Uniform Tango Hotel, all the caster is going to understand is the words Sierra October Uniform Tango Hotel. The caster will know what those individual words mean but not (once again) that the speaker means "south" , or "north", or "Yes I want some chicken".
I have supported my argument logically again and again and you continue to throw a fallacious statement back at me. The spell does NOT allow the caster to understand a code phrase or a code word beacuse the meaning of that word or phrase is entierely dependant upon the receiver because only the correct person (the person who understands the code) will understand the meaning of the code. ALL they would get is a perfect understanding of the individual words meanings NOT how they fit into a code. Look at KLM's post above, here I'll copy it for you;

All it takes is a comm officer, who does not know, what turtle means in THIS message.

The caster will understand the entire sentence, he/she will understand the definition of the word "turtle", but not what "turtle" means in this instance.