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How does Hand to Hand combat ability attacks work with Weapon Proficiency :Archery & Targeting: which grants you attacks as well ?

Example..

Level 14 Villian , has (Assassin) as his hand to hand combat skill. It grants 6 attacks. (plus boxing) +1, (plus living) +2 = 9 attacks.

Weapons Proficiency : Archery & Targeting : +8 attacks per melee .

Does that now mean that the Villain now has 17 attacks that melee round ?

Does that now mean that the Villain has to either take 1 type of attack or the other ?

I am a little bit confused.

Overkill wrote:

Lenwen wrote:How does Hand to Hand combat ability attacks work with Weapon Proficiency :Archery & Targeting: which grants you attacks as well ?

Example..

Level 14 Villian , has (Assassin) as his hand to hand combat skill. It grants 6 attacks. (plus boxing) +1, (plus living) +2 = 9 attacks.

Weapons Proficiency : Archery & Targeting : +8 attacks per melee .

Does that now mean that the Villain now has 17 attacks that melee round ?

Does that now mean that the Villain has to either take 1 type of attack or the other ?

I am a little bit confused.

It does not state 'attacks' it states Rof or Rate of Fire. Archery and targeting are considered a long range attack and therefor are not affected by Hand to hand ie close combat skills. So your RoF is used INSTEAD of your # of attacks per melee. Did that clear it up?

In my games players may not 'switch' from one to the other in a single melee, but other GM's allow it with all sorts of home rules on how to divide up your actions.

There is the debate of rate-of-fire. If taken from example of modern weapons, then rate-of-fire doesn't replace your attacks but limits the number of shots with that weapon, with one attack for a shot. Some people have talked about replacing one with the other, but it gets very complicated with mixing between the two.

Long Shadow wrote:

Overkill wrote:

Lenwen wrote:How does Hand to Hand combat ability attacks work with Weapon Proficiency :Archery & Targeting: which grants you attacks as well ?

Example..

Level 14 Villian , has (Assassin) as his hand to hand combat skill. It grants 6 attacks. (plus boxing) +1, (plus living) +2 = 9 attacks.

Weapons Proficiency : Archery & Targeting : +8 attacks per melee .

Does that now mean that the Villain now has 17 attacks that melee round ?

Does that now mean that the Villain has to either take 1 type of attack or the other ?

I am a little bit confused.

It does not state 'attacks' it states Rof or Rate of Fire. Archery and targeting are considered a long range attack and therefor are not affected by Hand to hand ie close combat skills. So your RoF is used INSTEAD of your # of attacks per melee. Did that clear it up?

In my games players may not 'switch' from one to the other in a single melee, but other GM's allow it with all sorts of home rules on how to divide up your actions.

There is the debate of rate-of-fire. If taken from example of modern weapons, then rate-of-fire doesn't replace your attacks but limits the number of shots with that weapon, with one attack for a shot. Some people have talked about replacing one with the other, but it gets very complicated with mixing between the two.

Exactly ..

With archery an Targeting .. they could literally take 1 shot with a bow , use the pistol for thier H2H attack , then use the bow again ..

Technically it WOULD .. be going by the letter of the law .

But what about if your second "weapon" is something like a psionic attack or an energy blast from the eyes...something you do not have to drop the bow to use?

I would to, usually whichever if LOWER of the two if you are switching, though you could pro-rate or do what they did in Champions or some other games, divide the round into seconds and divide each character's action between the number of seconds in the round. That way also gives each person a chance to act, rather than being overwhelmed by the person with high initiative.

So this is one of those "Rule as you want" type of area's where its literally either or ?

The way I understand it is that you either have your HTH attacks in a round, or you get ROF. Period. You don't get ROF for each HTH attack you have - you get one or the other. But to allow switching between the two? We can get into some interesting situations here.

For example, Captain Awesome has ROF at level 1 of 2 but has 4 HTH attacks. He couldn't possibly switch between the 2 as he has less attacks with the bow than he does in HTH combat. But at level 3, he gets +2 to ROF, meaning he would have 4 ROF or 4 HTH attacks. At this point, do you allow switching to happen as he has the same number of attacks for each?

And now after typing this out, I'm with the OP on this - confused. Should it be ROF = 1 HTH? Meaning, for Captain Awesome above, if his ROF is 2 at level 1 and he has 4 HTH attacks, would he get 8 shots with the bow in a combat round? I ask because generally speaking, if you're playing a character and you have 4 HTH attacks in a combat round but want to use a projectile weapon, no GM is going to say "Well, you have 4 HTH Attacks and those are for hand to hand melee combat only, so you can only fire 1 arrow". Not going to happen. We would all allow someone without targeting to fire 4 arrows in a combat round. So does ROF = 1 HTH?

Definitely an interesting subject, cause it can be hella confusing. THe way we handle it in my group is that instead of getting confused on the RoF / HtH while firing a bow, We've ruled it that you can fire an arrow per action you have since if you train in it you would technically be more proficient will pulling an arrow, drawing it and fireing a lot faster than using a crossbow.

Just feels easier that way since the RoF in the book kinda doesnt make logical sense. Especially when you get to a higher level and can have a higher RoF than attacks, then the whole switching between RoF and HtH would be making its way around again. So to me, RoF would be equal to as many actions you have. Mainly trying to make taking Archery feel as epic as Green Arrow and what not.

Severus Snape wrote:And now after typing this out, I'm with the OP on this - confused.

I know .. its VERY confusing .. if it were ment to be "JUST" one or the other it would normally state as much in the write up . (Palladium has that in every other Core book sept Heroe's) for that particular WP ..

Which lead me to believe that yes indeed it can be "Toggled" back an forth bow attacks to normal H2H attacks ..

Overkill wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Severus Snape wrote:And now after typing this out, I'm with the OP on this - confused.

I know .. its VERY confusing .. if it were ment to be "JUST" one or the other it would normally state as much in the write up . (Palladium has that in every other Core book sept Heroe's) for that particular WP ..

Which lead me to believe that yes indeed it can be "Toggled" back an forth bow attacks to normal H2H attacks ..

So let me make sure I'm reading you correctly. Every Palladium game except HU (at least the ones you own) has WP archery/targeting written up as you may use RoF or H2H. So instead of going with a ruling that matches all the other core rules your going with 'a character can toggle back and forth?' I'm not trying to be rude, but if you have that many core books you also know that Palladium games in general are chalk full of misspellings, typo's etc. right? Go with the majority on this one. It's one or the other. Not both. It was prob. left out by mistake.

Edited your post to get to the meaty part ..

Two things ..

First off .. Show me how many attacks you get using a revolver .. due to its own "Ranged" combat weapon proficency. Or .. is it that you in fact have to use "H2H" attacks to fire that revolver ? Please clerify to me where I am wrong in my logic that H2H attacks means more then just actual melee combat , that it in fact can and does also include some forms of Ranged combat .

Or am I wrong for that train of thought ?

Secondly .. My book does in fact not say how you put ..

Overkill wrote: Every Palladium game except HU (at least the ones you own) has WP archery/targeting written up as you may use RoF or H2H.

More aptly put this very key and very pertinent slice of info has me intrigued to say the least .

Palladium , pg83 wrote:
Rate of Fire with a Long Bow : 2 shots at lvl 1 , +1 at lvls 2,3,4,5,6,8,10,12,14. Use these in place pf the WP Archery numbers when using a long bow. Don't Combine them.

Yet it states nothing about any other H2H combat "Actions" and / or "Attacks" . It says neither to include them or to exclude them. Just do not combine 1 type of Archery proficiency attacks with that archery proficiency. Am I wrong ?

Also notice even the WP: Archery states neither to include nor exclude the possibility of combining the two types of attacks (H2H and Archery attacks) . Least not from what I've read. Perhaps you know of a rule in the book which prevents this from happening I'm more then willing to accept any rule from the book you can quote directly to me verbatim . (Not to sound rude, mind you.) But I do not think there is a rule on this subject matter.

This appears to be an area that has to be house ruled. But then again I've been wrong quite a bit in my life, perhaps this is one of those maby I have missed a rule .. or skipped a page where in it deals directly with this very topic ?

If so please help.

PFRPG shows that for the Long Bowman... now look in Ninjas and Superspies for the Archery form of the same thing.