Naturals and Geniuses: How far can they go?

[Nightmask]

I end up wondering how far one can really stretch this particular PCC, given they've the ability to learn things that many would consider outside the normal reach especially if they can afford the Mental Genius Special Ability. For example would it be able to learn magic, say a spell here or there with sufficient materials available provided it has sufficient PPE? Rifts: Mercenaries gives us an example of a Super-Spy that's a former mage and while he doesn't have many of the Ley Line Walker's abilities he does have spell-casting ability in spite of being more interested in being a spy by that point. So why not the Natural/Genius? He wouldn't be able to call upon many (if any) outside sources of PPE and be restricted to his own pool limiting his spell-casting ability, and given the power levels of the setting isn't going to be unbalanced letting this fairly mortal character have a few spells to increase survival.

By the same token what about a Ninjas and Superspies MA, like Zanji Shinjiken Ryu or even a normally exclusive art like Ninjitsu? Again the character is still fairly mortal but the MA has the potential of increasing survival a bit. The Zanji (or other sword-using MA for that matter) even has the option of the Mystic China Sword Chi technique which even allows them with a named weapon harm supernatural creatures so long as he has the positive chi for it.

For that matter could the PCC be used as a root to justify someone having picked up another unlikely class due to their ability to learn that's so above the norm?

[The Dark Elf]

Good thinking.

I say any or all of the above!

[Nightmask]

Good thinking.

I say any or all of the above!

Thanks, I know there tends to be a bias against characters having such flexibility confusing that with munchkinism but it makes for some interesting story ideas and a Jack-Of-All-Trades never hurts in a party (heck its even an OCC class in Mutants in Orbit). Even in a best case scenario (PE 30, max roll on PPE) the character has 60 PPE, of which 17 go into Mental Genius (to justify being so astoundingly capable of learning) leaving just 43 PPE which would be in the high end compared to a Wu Shih (max PPE 46). If you go by average rolls he's only got 24 PPE left over to work with. There's also no increase to PPE for a Natural/Genius PCC so if he's learning spells acquiring any that require more than that is just a wasted effort without some means of boosting his PPE (and as a less skilled practitioner of magic he likely can't learn how to use other PPE sources like normal mages can).

Of course with the Wu Shih mention given they're a very crippled class when it comes to PPE you could take Tai-Chi (one of the required MA to be a Wu Shih) and learn some chi magic spells since you aren't doing any better than a Wu Shih in that regard. You just get some minor benefits in not having your MA development locked at 3rd level (which makes no sense anyway when no other PCC have ever been shown being locked that I'm aware of, and given how weak they are anyway they could definitely use the same open-ended growth of their MA).

The character would be paying quite a bit to be so flexible anyway, not like those MA or spells would be cheap skill-wise or time-wise. He just gets to be helpful in that pinch where that little bit more is the difference between life and death. Plus he gets to be quite unique and colorful at the same time.

I remember there being a character in the Pantheons book who was listed as having natural aptitude beyond the norm with regards to tech, which later got me thinking about how he could have been a form of Natural/Genius who became a Techno-Wizard as a result. Hence my speculation about the Natural/Genius from Nightbane being someone who could become a Fleshsculpter or Sorcerer adding the minor (but quite helpful) benefits of that PCC to the other.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Natural and Genious is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's rediculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

[Nightmask]

Natural and Genious is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's rediculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

Really don't see where the 'of course' or the 'that's ridiculous' comes from. He's a class that specifically notes that they bend the rules because of their incredible ability to learn and believe things others might fail to be able to see the truth of. Magic requires belief, total and unwavering, and PPE enough to empower the spells. So the Natural & Genius PCC is eminently qualified to learn some spells even if he's not a dedicated mage. Even Beyond the Supernatural allowed for one non-spellcaster OCC being able to cast a few spells under proper circumstances due to their belief and understanding of magic and that's not even someone with an advantage when it comes to belief and ability to learn.

[Nightmask]

With some fair to better rolls a PC could have both Mental Genius and Weapons Expert, and by taking Zanji Shinjinken Ryu or another weapons-based MA could actually craft his own weapons and ensure quality weapons to fight with in the battle against the Ba'al and their minions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Natural and Genious is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's rediculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

Really don't see where the 'of course' or the 'that's ridiculous' comes from. He's a class that specifically notes that they bend the rules because of their incredible ability to learn and believe things others might fail to be able to see the truth of. Magic requires belief, total and unwavering, and PPE enough to empower the spells. So the Natural & Genius PCC is eminently qualified to learn some spells even if he's not a dedicated mage. Even Beyond the Supernatural allowed for one non-spellcaster OCC being able to cast a few spells under proper circumstances due to their belief and understanding of magic and that's not even someone with an advantage when it comes to belief and ability to learn.

Yes, they have an incredibility ability to learn. this is represented by their ability to learn any skill in all catagorys. Magic requires quite a bit more than beleif to cast, however. Try reading through the glass darkly sometimes. and Having PPE enough to cast spells has never been enough.

there is nothing in the writeup of Natural and Genious that suggests they violate the normal rules as to who can or can't learn magic. your grasping at straws because you want it to happen.

Which is fine. It's your game. Do what you want to. That dosn't mean the written material supports it beyond vauge mutterings about "Learnin' real good". Which isn't nearly enough to cover it.

Natural and Gerious's don't get to break the rules. They merely follow their own rules. and "learns magic" is not part of them.

[Nightmask]

Natural and Genious is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's rediculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

Really don't see where the 'of course' or the 'that's ridiculous' comes from. He's a class that specifically notes that they bend the rules because of their incredible ability to learn and believe things others might fail to be able to see the truth of. Magic requires belief, total and unwavering, and PPE enough to empower the spells. So the Natural & Genius PCC is eminently qualified to learn some spells even if he's not a dedicated mage. Even Beyond the Supernatural allowed for one non-spellcaster OCC being able to cast a few spells under proper circumstances due to their belief and understanding of magic and that's not even someone with an advantage when it comes to belief and ability to learn.

Yes, they have an incredibility ability to learn. this is represented by their ability to learn any skill in all catagorys. Magic requires quite a bit more than beleif to cast, however. Try reading through the glass darkly sometimes. and Having PPE enough to cast spells has never been enough.

there is nothing in the writeup of Natural and Genious that suggests they violate the normal rules as to who can or can't learn magic. your grasping at straws because you want it to happen.

Which is fine. It's your game. Do what you want to. That dosn't mean the written material supports it beyond vauge mutterings about "Learnin' real good". Which isn't nearly enough to cover it.

Natural and Gerious's don't get to break the rules. They merely follow their own rules. and "learns magic" is not part of them.

Learning magic requires belief, PPE enough to fuel spells, and access to materials that one can reasonably expect to provide sufficient foundation for understanding to learn spells, along with the minimum stats any average mage is required to have. That's not grasping at straws to suggest a Natural & Genius could conceivably learn some spells when they can meet all the criteria and there is evidence supporting non-mages working magic. If you don't think it stretched that far that's fine but the 'grasping at straws' reference was unnecessary and unsuited to the topic.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

[Nightmask]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I imagine Techno-Wizards for one would disagree about it being an art rather than a science, and given the rules do exist for one to dual class and one can dual class from say Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker with good stats clearly one doesn't have to either be a mage or not, they could have the potential, be something else first and become a mage later on.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I imagine Techno-Wizards for one would disagree about it being an art rather than a science, and given the rules do exist for one to dual class and one can dual class from say Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker with good stats clearly one doesn't have to either be a mage or not, they could have the potential, be something else first and become a mage later on.

Yes, which involves a change in class to a man of magic OCC.

Your Natural and Genious can. But they'd have to change OCC's.

Also: Techno-wizards probablly wouldn't. They can merge magic with technology, but it has never been a straight and proper conversion, precicely because of that. it's always twisted in some ways. How come they can only get a TW train to run on a ley line? Why havn't they found a way to get a TW gun to shoot actual bullets? These are just a few exsamples of conversions TW's can't get around.

[Nightmask]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I imagine Techno-Wizards for one would disagree about it being an art rather than a science, and given the rules do exist for one to dual class and one can dual class from say Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker with good stats clearly one doesn't have to either be a mage or not, they could have the potential, be something else first and become a mage later on.

Yes, which involves a change in class to a man of magic OCC.

Your Natural and Genious can. But they'd have to change OCC's.

Also: Techno-wizards probablly wouldn't. They can merge magic with technology, but it has never been a straight and proper conversion, precicely because of that. it's always twisted in some ways. How come they can only get a TW train to run on a ley line? Why havn't they found a way to get a TW gun to shoot actual bullets? These are just a few exsamples of conversions TW's can't get around.

Energy requirements are always a concern and Ley Lines are cheap endless energy so naturally one would fair better setting up something like a train running along one, and why would they want a TW gun to shoot bullets? That's what mundane firearms are for, the TW weapon is used to channel destructive magics as energy weapons, and if memory serves the TW TK gun fires 'bullets' of telekinetic energy so they do have kinetic energy weapons covered along with energy weapons.

Between us on this point about Naturals and Geniuses we have to agree to disagree, how you see magic and how I see it differs so that's about all the agreement we can manage with regards to this part of the topic.

On the overall topic though what else is within the range of their abilities when considered against both the Nightbane setting as well in other settings like Rifts or HU.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I imagine Techno-Wizards for one would disagree about it being an art rather than a science, and given the rules do exist for one to dual class and one can dual class from say Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker with good stats clearly one doesn't have to either be a mage or not, they could have the potential, be something else first and become a mage later on.

Yes, which involves a change in class to a man of magic OCC.

Your Natural and Genious can. But they'd have to change OCC's.

Also: Techno-wizards probablly wouldn't. They can merge magic with technology, but it has never been a straight and proper conversion, precicely because of that. it's always twisted in some ways. How come they can only get a TW train to run on a ley line? Why havn't they found a way to get a TW gun to shoot actual bullets? These are just a few exsamples of conversions TW's can't get around.

Energy requirements are always a concern and Ley Lines are cheap endless energy so naturally one would fair better setting up something like a train running along one, and why would they want a TW gun to shoot bullets? That's what mundane firearms are for, the TW weapon is used to channel destructive magics as energy weapons, and if memory serves the TW TK gun fires 'bullets' of telekinetic energy so they do have kinetic energy weapons covered along with energy weapons.

Between us on this point about Naturals and Geniuses we have to agree to disagree, how you see magic and how I see it differs so that's about all the agreement we can manage with regards to this part of the topic.

On the overall topic though what else is within the range of their abilities when considered against both the Nightbane setting as well in other settings like Rifts or HU.

Sorry. The "Magic is just another kind of science" has always struck me as being utterly boring. One of the reasons I like Palladium is that in general it draws a clear line between the two. the TW blurs it, however, it makes it clear that's what happening is they're channeling normal magic through devices, just another kind of magical item. At no point do they actually make technology run on magic, not even in phase world do the TW ships run that way.

But as you said, we're likely to disagree. I simply reject your assertation that the material so far backs you up on it, as i'm fairly confident they back me up more.

But as I said, your game, your way.

[Nightmask]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I imagine Techno-Wizards for one would disagree about it being an art rather than a science, and given the rules do exist for one to dual class and one can dual class from say Rogue Scientist to Ley Line Walker with good stats clearly one doesn't have to either be a mage or not, they could have the potential, be something else first and become a mage later on.

Yes, which involves a change in class to a man of magic OCC.

Your Natural and Genious can. But they'd have to change OCC's.

Also: Techno-wizards probablly wouldn't. They can merge magic with technology, but it has never been a straight and proper conversion, precicely because of that. it's always twisted in some ways. How come they can only get a TW train to run on a ley line? Why havn't they found a way to get a TW gun to shoot actual bullets? These are just a few exsamples of conversions TW's can't get around.

Energy requirements are always a concern and Ley Lines are cheap endless energy so naturally one would fair better setting up something like a train running along one, and why would they want a TW gun to shoot bullets? That's what mundane firearms are for, the TW weapon is used to channel destructive magics as energy weapons, and if memory serves the TW TK gun fires 'bullets' of telekinetic energy so they do have kinetic energy weapons covered along with energy weapons.

Between us on this point about Naturals and Geniuses we have to agree to disagree, how you see magic and how I see it differs so that's about all the agreement we can manage with regards to this part of the topic.

On the overall topic though what else is within the range of their abilities when considered against both the Nightbane setting as well in other settings like Rifts or HU.

Sorry. The "Magic is just another kind of science" has always struck me as being utterly boring. One of the reasons I like Palladium is that in general it draws a clear line between the two. the TW blurs it, however, it makes it clear that's what happening is they're channeling normal magic through devices, just another kind of magical item. At no point do they actually make technology run on magic, not even in phase world do the TW ships run that way.

But as you said, we're likely to disagree. I simply reject your assertation that the material so far backs you up on it, as i'm fairly confident they back me up more.

But as I said, your game, your way.

Except magic is just another science, which in no way shape or form does that make magic boring anymore than because it's science does the study of astronomy or physics make it boring. If you're finding science boring you're looking at it wrong, and magic has its own internally consistent rules that it operates by and how one learns it which would make it just as boring if one focuses on that rather than how cool each is. Magic is as much a part of the physical world in the various Palladium RPG as light and gravity, and while it has an unpredictable factor due to its nature it's still something that can be studied and learned like any other science, albeit with harder restrictions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually no. Take a closer look at Through the Glass Darkly. It is not another science, it's rules are not internally consistant. rather it can change dramatically for no real reason.

[Nightmask]

Hmmm, so for one who had a dedicated Martial Art as seen in Ninjas and Superspies, I wonder if the character at start or later on trade in new OCC skills to get extra Martial Arts powers. Given the Worldly Martial Artist gains bonus powers free as they acquire levels it's not much of a stretch that the character could trade in their regular skill growth for something related to their existing martial art especially if they're a Martial Arts focused Natural&Genius.

[Nightmask]

I just realized the perfect MA for a N&G to learn, Chao Ta Kung Fu from Mystic China! It's the Hong Kong favorite for MA productions. The N&G would have tons of video to learn from and for a MA movie fan it'd be a perfect selection for the character. There'd be a range of moves he'd see and be able to practice emulating until he got it down pat. Sure it's not the best for dealing with other MA but many of his opponents aren't going to be the dedicated sorts and will have the more genetic HtH instead. Plus who can go wrong with a kata that lets you actually pull off a Horror/Awe factor check?!

[Specter]

Going to have to agree with Nekira, being a natural or a genius doesn't make you a mage. No matter how much you study.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Natural and Genius is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's ridiculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

Really don't see where the 'of course' or the 'that's ridiculous' comes from. He's a class that specifically notes that they bend the rules because of their incredible ability to learn and believe things others might fail to be able to see the truth of. Magic requires belief, total and unwavering, and PPE enough to empower the spells. So the Natural & Genius PCC is eminently qualified to learn some spells even if he's not a dedicated mage. Even Beyond the Supernatural allowed for one non-spellcaster OCC being able to cast a few spells under proper circumstances due to their belief and understanding of magic and that's not even someone with an advantage when it comes to belief and ability to learn.

There is one little problem with your line of reasoning NM, The Natural class is a PCC that has burned off nearly all of it's PPE. I will brake the above statement down into two parts for explanation.
* PCC's can not change their class.
* They do not have enough PPE to cast spells.

These facts are why the phrases "of course they can't learn magic." and "that's ridiculous" were used.
----------
As far as learning a N&S MAF, the way I would do it, it would cost the char at least one skill program or about 16 perm PPE points. This is after getting an okay to do so from your GM.

[Nightmask]

Natural and Genius is not a mage or even mystic, of course they can't learn magic. That's ridiculous.

As far as N&SS Martial arts go: there's nothing stopping any character from taking them. In most games i've played Nightbane tend to have them, I wouldn't see why they couldn't.

Really don't see where the 'of course' or the 'that's ridiculous' comes from. He's a class that specifically notes that they bend the rules because of their incredible ability to learn and believe things others might fail to be able to see the truth of. Magic requires belief, total and unwavering, and PPE enough to empower the spells. So the Natural & Genius PCC is eminently qualified to learn some spells even if he's not a dedicated mage. Even Beyond the Supernatural allowed for one non-spellcaster OCC being able to cast a few spells under proper circumstances due to their belief and understanding of magic and that's not even someone with an advantage when it comes to belief and ability to learn.

There is one little problem with your line of reasoning NM, The Natural class is a PCC that has burned off nearly all of it's PPE. I will brake the above statement down into two parts for explanation.
* PCC's can not change their class.
* They do not have enough PPE to cast spells.

These facts are why the phrases "of course they can't learn magic." and "that's ridiculous" were used.

Correction, the Natural class while it can spend down to the minimum of 2 PPE there's nothing that says that they must spend most or all of their available PPE. Which means they can particularly with average or better rolls afford one Special Ability (like Mental Genius) and still have enough PPE base left to cover spell costs up around 20 for a spell. Also there's nothing that has it that one can't change from a PCC, only that one can't change TO a PCC and even that's debatable given some of the races around like Gene Splicers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would not have included about being a PCC was a issue if it was not an issue. I am not disagreeing with you, I am saying I am correct in bring up that they can't change their class because they are PCC's. Already discussed about the pre-requ's for changing class elsewhere, so I'm not going into it here.

[Nightmask]

I would not have included about being a PCC was a issue if it was not an issue. I am not disagreeing with you, I am saying I am correct in bring up that they can't change their class because they are PCC's. Already discussed about the pre-requ's for changing class elsewhere, so I'm not going into it here.

And I stated that I haven't seen anything to support the 'PCC can't change classes' claim you're making. While you can't go from say a Rogue Scientist to a Mind Melter there's nothing preventing someone from giving up further advancement in a PCC like that of the Natural and Genius and becoming another class like a Sorcerer or Spook Squad.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are no rules that allow a PCC to change their class. All the published rules for changing class that I can find only apply to OCC's.

[Damian Magecraft]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I have disagree on this point Nekira...
It is both an Art and a Science. You have have to have an aptitude for it but you still must learn the techniques to get better.

[drewkitty ~..~]

level 5 edit

[Nightmask]

There are no rules that allow a PCC to change their class. All the published rules for changing class that I can find only apply to OCC's.

I imagine you're going by the assumption that because it says 'switching OCC' that because it didn't explicitly state 'OCC and PCC' that PCC are excluded, even though that doesn't logically follow.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I have disagree on this point Nekira...
It is both an Art and a Science. You have have to have an aptitude for it but you still must learn the techniques to get better.

I disagree.

Mystics prove you don't have to learn the techniques--or anything else at all! to get better at it.

[Nightmask]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I have disagree on this point Nekira...
It is both an Art and a Science. You have have to have an aptitude for it but you still must learn the techniques to get better.

I disagree.

Mystics prove you don't have to learn the techniques--or anything else at all! to get better at it.

Mystics are tapped into an undefined source that provides them with spells, but they don't prove that magic isn't as much a science as an art. LLW research and attempt to develop new spells and you can't do that without there being rules involved and some kind of scientific method to spell research to come up with them. Mystics just prove that some people can tap into something, some kind of spell database, and 'download' spells that feel right to them when they come to the right moment in their lives (i.e. level up). Which does make one wonder though just where to Mystics and other sorts (like Godlings with a magical special power class as one of their selections) acquire these spells that they just know, is there perhaps some alien intelligence or unknown god who has never made himself known that these beings just somehow tap into? Or will Mystics someday get a call from this being to finally call in the debt and make its wants known?

[The Dark Elf]

Have you ever thought that magic isn't an art or a science that's what makes it....um....well, magic!?

I'll leave it at that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are no rules that allow a PCC to change their class. All the published rules for changing class that I can find only apply to OCC's.

I imagine you're going by the assumption that because it says 'switching OCC' that because it didn't explicitly state 'OCC and PCC' that PCC are excluded, even though that doesn't logically follow.

I'm not making the assumption that the changing OCC rules apply to PCC's. There is no indication that they do apply to PCC's, since all the times it could of added in PCC's and RCC's to the changing OCC rules.

[Nightmask]

There are no rules that allow a PCC to change their class. All the published rules for changing class that I can find only apply to OCC's.

I imagine you're going by the assumption that because it says 'switching OCC' that because it didn't explicitly state 'OCC and PCC' that PCC are excluded, even though that doesn't logically follow.

I'm not making the assumption that the changing OCC rules apply to PCC's. There is no indication that they do apply to PCC's, since all the times it could of added in PCC's and RCC's to the changing OCC rules.

Why add extra text when you don't need to? It's quite illogical to claim someone can't go from mastering their Mind melter powers to becoming a Rogue Scientist, because there's nothing about being a psychic that makes it impossible for you to be anything else or focus your attention into learning something else. There is ZERO difference between that and a Mutant that decides rather than keep dedicating himself to advancing his mutant powers to switch to learning another OCC. I've no idea why you tossed in RCC either, since one can't educate themselves into being another race but unless there's something mystically preventing it (like demigods being unable to become cyborgs) there's nothing to stop someone giving up learning the traditional skills expected of his race and learn an OCC instead. An infant Godling left in the hands of mortals to be raised isn't going to grow up learning traditional godling skills in a setting totally incompatible with it for example.

[Damian Magecraft]

No, I ment what I said. Magic is an art, not a science. You can have all the proper tools and fail for years to learn anything magical no matter how good at learning you are. You either are a mage or your arn't.

I have disagree on this point Nekira...
It is both an Art and a Science. You have have to have an aptitude for it but you still must learn the techniques to get better.

I disagree.

Mystics prove you don't have to learn the techniques--or anything else at all! to get better at it.

Mystics are tapped into an undefined source that provides them with spells, but they don't prove that magic isn't as much a science as an art. LLW research and attempt to develop new spells and you can't do that without there being rules involved and some kind of scientific method to spell research to come up with them. Mystics just prove that some people can tap into something, some kind of spell database, and 'download' spells that feel right to them when they come to the right moment in their lives (i.e. level up). Which does make one wonder though just where to Mystics and other sorts (like Godlings with a magical special power class as one of their selections) acquire these spells that they just know, is there perhaps some alien intelligence or unknown god who has never made himself known that these beings just somehow tap into? Or will Mystics someday get a call from this being to finally call in the debt and make its wants known?

If you think about it...
you could say the Mystic is the Natural/Genius of the magic world.
N/Gs can not explain how a thing works they just know it does.
Now ask a mystic how they are able to cast spell XYZ...
They cannot explain the why/how they just "know."

[drewkitty ~..~]

Why add extra text when you don't need to? It's quite illogical to claim someone can't go from mastering their Mind melter powers to becoming a Rogue Scientist, because there's nothing about being a psychic that makes it impossible for you to be anything else or focus your attention into learning something else. There is ZERO difference between that and a Mutant that decides rather than keep dedicating himself to advancing his mutant powers to switch to learning another OCC. I've no idea why you tossed in RCC either, since one can't educate themselves into being another race but unless there's something mystically preventing it (like demigods being unable to become cyborgs) there's nothing to stop someone giving up learning the traditional skills expected of his race and learn an OCC instead. An infant Godling left in the hands of mortals to be raised isn't going to grow up learning traditional godling skills in a setting totally incompatible with it for example.

A Psi does not need to change their class to become a scholar, they are just Psi's who like to study. (using the word scholar in the broadest sense of the word to include general knowledge and scientific knowledge.)

Yep, you are right, but they still are a part of the mutant power cat. So even if they spend their time learning things they remain the same class.

The "canon fact" is that none of the published rules allow a Psi to change their class. Not even the posted rules in the cutting room floor say that PCC's can change their class. Notice the two words in quotes, that is the "mystical" reason.
When I post here in these boards I post as close to the CANON rules as I can. (yes, there even disagreements about what is canon, but each side has supporting text that they can reference. This is not something you have presented you have only presented argument.) And if posting my opinion I, in some way shape or form, say something to that effect. While you may in your own game have Your own 'House Rules' that does not make your "House Rules" canon rules. Please in the future make sure when you are posting an opinion to some where in your post in some way/shape/form that you are posting an opinion.

If(<--see that is a big 'if') you can quote book, page, and paragraph something in the published gamebooks that supports your claim, then do so. Otherwise please refrain from trying to argue that your "house rules" are the "canon rules" just because you want things to be interpreted "Your Way."

The published places that have text concerning changing one's class are in..
PFRPG: High Seas
RCB1
RCB1r
Mystic China (about western mages switching to chi mage)
RT1 macross
RT1 Zentradie (concerning zents who have gone native)

[I'm sure there is at least one other place, but can't remember it a.t.m.]

[Nightmask]

Why add extra text when you don't need to? It's quite illogical to claim someone can't go from mastering their Mind melter powers to becoming a Rogue Scientist, because there's nothing about being a psychic that makes it impossible for you to be anything else or focus your attention into learning something else. There is ZERO difference between that and a Mutant that decides rather than keep dedicating himself to advancing his mutant powers to switch to learning another OCC. I've no idea why you tossed in RCC either, since one can't educate themselves into being another race but unless there's something mystically preventing it (like demigods being unable to become cyborgs) there's nothing to stop someone giving up learning the traditional skills expected of his race and learn an OCC instead. An infant Godling left in the hands of mortals to be raised isn't going to grow up learning traditional godling skills in a setting totally incompatible with it for example.

A Psi does not need to change their class to become a scholar, they are just Psi's who like to study. (using the word scholar in the broadest sense of the word to include general knowledge and scientific knowledge.)

Yep, you are right, but they still are a part of the mutant power cat. So even if they spend their time learning things they remain the same class.

I doubt a mutant powered Super-Spy OCC changing to the Special Forces OCC is still a Super-Spy. Sure he's still a mutant but he's definitely changed classes. What powers he has inherent to his form have no say on his changing classes.

The "canon fact" is that none of the published rules allow a Psi to change their class. Not even the posted rules in the cutting room floor say that PCC's can change their class. Notice the two words in quotes, that is the "mystical" reason.
When I post here in these boards I post as close to the CANON rules as I can. (yes, there even disagreements about what is canon, but each side has supporting text that they can reference. This is not something you have presented you have only presented argument.) And if posting my opinion I, in some way shape or form, say something to that effect. While you may in your own game have Your own 'House Rules' that does not make your "House Rules" canon rules. Please in the future make sure when you are posting an opinion to some where in your post in some way/shape/form that you are posting an opinion.

If(<--see that is a big 'if') you can quote book, page, and paragraph something in the published gamebooks that supports your claim, then do so. Otherwise please refrain from trying to argue that your "house rules" are the "canon rules" just because you want things to be interpreted "Your Way."

The published places that have text concerning changing one's class are in..
PFRPG: High Seas
RCB1
RCB1r
Mystic China (about western mages switching to chi mage)
RT1 macross
RT1 Zentradie (concerning zents who have gone native)

[I'm sure there is at least one other place, but can't remember it a.t.m.]

Too bad you aren't quoting canon rules saying that a PCC can't change to a non-PCC. That's your opinion of the rules. All you can say is 'well they didn't add extra text in there about PCC so it must not be so' which isn't enough. So what you're stating is that you feel your house rule is the canon rule on how to consider the rules on changing ones class. A PCC is not a RCC, it's not something you're born with and can't be anything else. Indeed given the Coalition has some inhumane programs that can sculpt a starting psi's class into one they favor even your starting PCC isn't completely set in stone. That and PCC are rare compared to non-psychic OCC and less likelihood someone would be in the position to want to change classes so OCC is left as a catch-all because in the end being a psychic is still an occupation and you can choose to not continue working as a psychic and be something else.

Either way there's nothing about being a psychic that says you can't become something else other than you want to interpret it that way. It's not canon to the rules at all that a PCC is just like a RCC that you can't change. A Psi-Tech wants to train as a Techno-Wizard nothing's going to keep him from learning it. Heck he's already got the psionics only better that training as a TW supply. Definitely nothing to prevent a Psi-Tech from becoming a Super-Spy. Given there is nothing to really claim that psychic powers somehow prevent you from learning a different class when other powers don't you're just house-ruling that a PCC can't change to another class because there's nothing rationally that says that they can't.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Until you have pointed out which text support your claims, your claims are "house rules".

As for your harping on the Super_Spy OCC. *gets out the CLUE BAT and uses it* that class is choch full of EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULES.

[Nightmask]

Until you have pointed out which text support your claims, your claims are "house rules".

Until you can do likewise you're just claiming house rules too. Because I haven't heard you point to a line that says 'A PCC can't change to another class', when there is clear evidence characters with powers can change classes and your contention has less support than mine does. You can't change your race but you can certainly change what you do and being a psychic doesn't make you incapable of giving up being a psychic and doing something else like being a nightbane always being a nightbane and unable to become a dragon or completely normal human being. 'They just can't' doesn't cut it, and that's all it comes down to what you keep saying because you can't refute my points.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I've already stated my supporting text. Which you have rejected because you have your own house rule interpretations of them.

[Nightmask]

I've already stated my supporting text. Which you have rejected because you have your own house rule interpretations of them.

Except you haven't stated supporting text, because it's not as cut and dry as you want it to be. You certainly haven't supplied anything that disputes my points other than 'I don't believe it'.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I've already stated my supporting text. Which you have rejected because you have your own house rule interpretations of them.

Except you haven't stated supporting text, because it's not as cut and dry as you want it to be. You certainly haven't supplied anything that disputes my points other than 'I don't believe it'.

The "multiple OCC's" rules in PFRPG book 3: High Seas, page 10 All the paragraphs in the section, make no note of being able to change nether RCC's nor PCC's. (there is my Book, page, paragaph.) There is not even any inference that RCC's and PCC's can use these rules to change their class. Thus there is not supporting text in that book to support your stance that PCC's can change.
State your Book Page Paragraph of your supporting text.

[Nightmask]

I've already stated my supporting text. Which you have rejected because you have your own house rule interpretations of them.

Except you haven't stated supporting text, because it's not as cut and dry as you want it to be. You certainly haven't supplied anything that disputes my points other than 'I don't believe it'.

The "multiple OCC's" rules in PFRPG book 3: High Seas, page 10 All the paragraphs in the section, make no note of being able to change nether RCC's nor PCC's. (there is my Book, page, paragaph.) There is not even any inference that RCC's and PCC's can use these rules to change their class. Thus there is not supporting text in that book to support your stance that PCC's can change.
State your Book Page Paragraph of your supporting text.

I really wish you'd not keep dragging RCC's into the discussion when one can't obviously change what their race is and I've never said they could. I've noted that ones character class isn't set in stone (other than when the GM rejects the optional rules of class changing), that what you begin with as your educational focus doesn't have to remain so. There is no quantifiable difference between a character with superhuman powers and an OCC changing to another OCC (the Superspy example) and someone whose super-powers are psychic powers changing from their PCC to a non-psychic OCC.

You can't offer anything that would justify the idea that psychics are so locked in on being a PCC that they can't abandon it to become something else other than how you interpret the rules on changing character classes. Because they aren't so cut and dry as to say 'only an OCC can change classes no one else' then its your house rule that it means that even though it's not supported logically as having to be that way and completely valid to consider that a PCC can change to a non-PCC OCC.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am just being completely precise when mentioning RCC's along with PCC's in this situation. To do be otherwise would not to be stating things completely.

That the OCC of a char is set in stone, even if their jobs are not. The Multiple OCC's rules just provide a way for the players to break the stone. In contrast RCC's and PCC's are set in adamantine with not way to break out of them.

Chars with Minor & Major Psi abilities, and those with hero powers track with the OCC of the char. Whatever the highest level attained.

There is a breakdown with you SS example when 'hypothetically some char changes to that occ. Unless the char has magic/Psi/hero powers to start off with, they are limited to the mundane options of the occ.

All I'm trying to do is point out, "Under Canon Rules there is no path for RCC's and PCC's to change their classes." This point is one you do not seam to be getting a clue about. While all your arguments can be considered to be valid arguing points only for someone's house rules. They are not valid in canon rules. Because when talking about canon rules you have to go by what is actually said. Not an interpretation of what is said.

[Nightmask]

I am just being completely precise when mentioning RCC's along with PCC's in this situation. To do be otherwise would not to be stating things completely.

That the OCC of a char is set in stone, even if their jobs are not. The Multiple OCC's rules just provide a way for the players to break the stone. In contrast RCC's and PCC's are set in adamantine with not way to break out of them.

Chars with Minor & Major Psi abilities, and those with hero powers track with the OCC of the char. Whatever the highest level attained.

There is a breakdown with you SS example when 'hypothetically some char changes to that occ. Unless the char has magic/Psi/hero powers to start off with, they are limited to the mundane options of the occ.

All I'm trying to do is point out, "Under Canon Rules there is no path for RCC's and PCC's to change their classes." This point is one you do not seam to be getting a clue about. While all your arguments can be considered to be valid arguing points only for someone's house rules. They are not valid in canon rules. Because when talking about canon rules you have to go by what is actually said. Not an interpretation of what is said.

I need to point out to you that you're wrong. You assume because it's simply titled 'changing OCC' that it excludes changing from a PCC, which it does not. Along with that you add in the RCC as a distraction implying that a PCC is identical to an RCC and as one cannot change ones race then one can't change from a psychic class either, which again is not the case. They aren't the same thing. Being a psychic isn't the same thing as being a race. You can abandon dedicating yourself to advancing your psychic abilities to advance as something else, you can't abandon what your race is. Even your dismissal of these evident facts is based on your assumption that you can't change so you handwave away the fact that you can because it doesn't fit your conclusion.

Believe me I can handle complex documentation easily and few RPG rise to the level of being so complex as to be a problem and Palladium works hard to avoid such complexity. Sometimes this leaves ambiguities that are open to interpretation which as we all know every RPG has holes, poor wording, printing errors and the like that require dealing with. This is one of those ambiguities. You may not think so because you're invested in holding your position as the canon answer but it isn't, your position is an individual house rule interpretation of it. Some will agree with it, some will agree with mine, but your position isn't the canon position, not without a post from Palladium as official errata or clarification explicitly stating that dedicated PCC can't change from their PCC to another class. No matter how much you insist that your position is canon it isn't, it's fanon.

[Nightmask]

In any case I think this thread's run its course, given the positions provided by the few to respond to it. Not seeing any flexibility and without that a meaningful discussion can't be held. So might as well let it go to rest.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The "multiple OCC's" rules in PFRPG book 3: High Seas, page 10 All the paragraphs in the section, making no note of being able to change nether RCC's nor PCC's. (there is my Book, page, paragraph.) There is not even any inference that RCC's and PCC's can use these rules to change their class. Thus there is not supporting text in that book to support your stance that PCC's can change.
State your Book Page Paragraph of your supporting text.

I need to point out to you that you're wrong. You assume because it's simply titled 'changing OCC' that it excludes changing from a PCC, which it does not. ...snip

Note the highlighted section. There is Absolutely no mention of PCC's nor RCC's in the referenced text. So it is not Just the Title of the section that I am referring to.

I did notice that you never referenced text to support your claims. And No, referencing an OCC, nor a NPC, as an example does not go towards a text reference for general rules. It needs to be text talking about the general rules.

[Nightmask]

The "multiple OCC's" rules in PFRPG book 3: High Seas, page 10 All the paragraphs in the section, making no note of being able to change nether RCC's nor PCC's. (there is my Book, page, paragraph.) There is not even any inference that RCC's and PCC's can use these rules to change their class. Thus there is not supporting text in that book to support your stance that PCC's can change.
State your Book Page Paragraph of your supporting text.

I need to point out to you that you're wrong. You assume because it's simply titled 'changing OCC' that it excludes changing from a PCC, which it does not. ...snip

Note the highlighted section. There is Absolutely no mention of PCC's nor RCC's in the referenced text. So it is not Just the Title of the section that I am referring to.

I did notice that you never referenced text to support your claims. And No, referencing an OCC, nor a NPC, as an example does not go towards a text reference for general rules. It needs to be text talking about the general rules.

Look, if you can't handle the basic logic and reasoning I've laid out and want to dismiss it out of hand because you want your interpretation to be treated as canon so ignore everything to keep repeating 'Not in the rules, not in the rules, if they don't say so it can't be so!' rather than accept that you're just house-ruling that's your problem. No you don't have text that supports your claims, because that would require 'PCC can't change their PCC once chosen at start' to be in the text and it doesn't exist, you're only presenting your assumption that it says that when it doesn't.

EDIT: This also isn't on topic for this thread and if you want to argue what you think the changing classes rules mean open up a separate thread for it then.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If it is not in the rules, then it is a part of your "House Rules". There would be no problem if you said they were your house rules. It is your insistence that that Your House Rules are, Which are NOT SUPPORTED BY THE TEXT, are the canon rules.
*shrugs* I can not get things any plainer then that.

Basic Logic would say that "If there is no Text to support my claim then my claim is just house rules." This is where YOU, Nightmask, are not following logic. For it is you who is not basing your opinion about the rules about changing classes, in the text about the rules about changing classes.
You can moan and groan that I'm being a hard nose about not budging because you have no textual evidence to support your opinion. However, till you give that textual evidence your opinion can only be classified as house rules.

[aside: I have all but the most recent few books, so I would more then willing to look ANY textual evidence you might give to support your claim. Name the book page paragraph. Something you have yet to do.]

[aside #2: Yes, I am familiar with the Super-Spy OCC, it got counted as irrelevant to the discussion about the rules under discussion since it is not a text about changing a char's class. It sort of like it's predecessors the Undead Hunter OCC and the Witch Hunter OCC in the Yin Sloth book, or the newer Half Wizard in the Mysteries of magic book. Both of which are irrelevant to the discussion about the changing class rules.]


I'm not making ANY assumptions, unlike you. It is apparent you don't like the canon rules. That is what House Rules are for. That does not make it right for you to pass off your house rules as canon rules.

In these Forums, When you are talking about your house rules then say you are, do not try to pass them off as the canon rules.
This is my Major complaint about your stance, you are passing off your house rules as canon rules.
Is putting you on ignore.

[Nightmask]

If it is not in the rules, then it is a part of your "House Rules". There would be no problem if you said they were your house rules. It is your insistence that that Your House Rules are, Which are NOT SUPPORTED BY THE TEXT, are the canon rules.
*shrugs* I can not get things any plainer then that.

Basic Logic would say that "If there is no Text to support my claim then my claim is just house rules." This is where YOU, Nightmask, are not following logic. For it is you who is not basing your opinion about the rules about changing classes, in the text about the rules about changing classes.
You can moan and groan that I'm being a hard nose about not budging because you have no textual evidence to support your opinion. However, till you give that textual evidence your opinion can only be classified as house rules.

[aside: I have all but the most recent few books, so I would more then willing to look ANY textual evidence you might give to support your claim. Name the book page paragraph. Something you have yet to do.]

[aside #2: Yes, I am familiar with the Super-Spy OCC, it got counted as irrelevant to the discussion about the rules under discussion since it is not a text about changing a char's class. It sort of like it's predecessors the Undead Hunter OCC and the Witch Hunter OCC in the Yin Sloth book, or the newer Half Wizard in the Mysteries of magic book. Both of which are irrelevant to the discussion about the changing class rules.]


I'm not making ANY assumptions, unlike you. It is apparent you don't like the canon rules. That is what House Rules are for. That does not make it right for you to pass off your house rules as canon rules.

In these Forums, When you are talking about your house rules then say you are, do not try to pass them off as the canon rules.
This is my Major complaint about your stance, you are passing off your house rules as canon rules.

Oh please, you dismiss the Super-Spy OCC changing classes because it is an example of a super-powered character being able to change classes under the rules because it's an OCC and there's no quantifiable difference between superpowers and psionics.

Oh, and no matter how obnoxiously large you bold the text it will never make your house rule interpretation more canon than mine. You have nothing in text that supports your position while claiming you do and instead spend all your time shouting at me to provide text that covers my side then dismiss everything because it doesn't work in your favor. What you have is the text and your spin on it, you don't have in text what you claim to have. I say 'show in text where it says a PCC can't change to an OCC and abandon his psychic studies' and you say 'No I interpret it that that's a given so you show where it says it can' so qualitatively the only difference in our stances is because it's your stance you consider yours to be canon but it isn't.

What you're really upset over is being told what you think is canon in this instance isn't, that the rules as you interpret them don't have just the interpretation you want but another one that's as valid as yours. You can't offer up anything that makes your position more valid than mine, other than your personal belief that it is. No matter how often you repeat it and no matter how large you inflate the text what you insist is canon isn't, it's just a house rule based on you reading the class changing rules more restrictively and dismissing material showing it can be interpreted more broadly because you're invested in being restrictive.

[Shark_Force]

in the newest version of the rifts books (RUE) there is no such thing as a PCC at all. all of the former PCCs have been turned into OCCs. even the racial-restricted ones.

conclusion: latest version of the rules heavily implies that PCCs are merely a sub-category of OCC, and that the use of PCC to designate this has been discontinued. any rule that applies to OCCs (eg rules for changing OCCs) should apply to PCCs, within reason.

(that is, you can't change to dog boy OCC unless you're a dog boy race, just as you can't change to a cyborg OCC without actually becoming a cyborg, etc).

[drewkitty ~..~]

in the newest version of the rifts books (RUE) there is no such thing as a PCC at all. all of the former PCCs have been turned into OCCs. even the racial-restricted ones.

conclusion: latest version of the rules heavily implies that PCCs are merely a sub-category of OCC, and that the use of PCC to designate this has been discontinued. any rule that applies to OCCs (e.g. rules for changing OCCs) should apply to PCCs, within reason.

(that is, you can't change to dog boy OCC unless you're a dog boy race, just as you can't change to a cyborg OCC without actually becoming a cyborg, etc).

That is rifts, not nightbane SF. What is Rifts only applies to the other settings through a GM's house rules.

That is Besides the point that KS admittedly said the said changes were for Stylistic reasons.

There is also the part that due to when the changing OCC rules were written up for are different from the new things in RUE, you would also have to translate the meaning of the rules to fit the new wording meaning in RUE. If you were going to apply the Multiple OCC rules in High Seas, to the Post-RUE rifts setting.

Just like you have to understand the culture of the time when trying to figure out what was being said in old books. The most famous being the Good News in the Bible.

[Nightmask]

in the newest version of the rifts books (RUE) there is no such thing as a PCC at all. all of the former PCCs have been turned into OCCs. even the racial-restricted ones.

conclusion: latest version of the rules heavily implies that PCCs are merely a sub-category of OCC, and that the use of PCC to designate this has been discontinued. any rule that applies to OCCs (eg rules for changing OCCs) should apply to PCCs, within reason.

(that is, you can't change to dog boy OCC unless you're a dog boy race, just as you can't change to a cyborg OCC without actually becoming a cyborg, etc).

That is rifts, not nightbane SF. What is Rifts only applies to the other settings through a GM's house rules.

That is Besides the point that KS admittedly said the said changes were for Stylistic reasons.

You do realize you've spent your entire time arguing a starting psychic can't change their class based on rules from other settings including Rifts right? So you can't simply dismiss when someone points out that more recent material undercuts your claim that only you know what's the canon interpretation of the class changing rules because it's from another setting when your entire argument required material from other settings. You also don't get to dismiss it as 'stylistic changes' because again it undercuts your argument, since the 'stylistic change' as you like to handwave it away as does away with the PCC altogether, and if the class no longer exists and is a de-facto OCC now then you can change it.