YOU ... Are the General.

[Lenwen]

You .. are the SUPREME General of all of the Tolkeen defensive forces ..

How would YOU .. personally set up Tolkeen's defenses given SoT 6 tolkeen military unit stats to form any and all defensive formations of your desires.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I owned SoT 6, I'd answer this one.
Good question.

[Dr Megaverse]

Heh...instead of being "the General" and changing their defensive formations I'd rather be "the Editor" so I could remove the ridiculousness that is Jericho Holmes.

[Grinning Demon]

You .. are the SUPREME General of all of the Tolkeen defensive forces ..

How would YOU .. personally set up Tolkeen's defenses given SoT 6 tolkeen military unit stats to form any and all defensive formations of your desires.

If I were the general of Tolkeen's army, I'd pretty much do the exact same thing as the general(s) in SoT 6. Tolkeen lost the war because Alistair Dunscon and the True Federation of Magic basically pledged all their support to Tolkeen then conveniently didn't show up to the battle. In other words the CS defeated Tolkeen due Alistair's betrayal rather than poor military planning.

So I guess what Lenwen is looking for is some absurd answer like: If I were the general I'd have the psionic power of knowing I'm going to be double crossed by a so-called ally and plan accordingly

[Dustin Fireblade]

Heh...instead of being "the General" and changing their defensive formations I'd rather be "the Editor" so I could remove the ridiculousness that is Jericho Holmes.

If that was the case and I was the editor I wouldn't have had the war in the first place...

[taalismn]

Heh...instead of being "the General" and changing their defensive formations I'd rather be "the Editor" so I could remove the ridiculousness that is Jericho Holmes.

If that was the case and I was the editor I wouldn't have had the war in the first place...

Now, now, if we all had the ability to Edit Reality, we'd have one hell of a big mess, what with everybod-...Hello? What am I doing here? What sort of a board is this? What the heck?! Hey, what's my name? Is this my HAND? Oh my gosh...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You .. are the SUPREME General of all of the Tolkeen defensive forces ..

How would YOU .. personally set up Tolkeen's defenses given SoT 6 tolkeen military unit stats to form any and all defensive formations of your desires.

order a holding defence and get civilians out of the city ,before the Coalition got their stuff in gear and came back.

[batlchip]

Well let's see I woul--They have how many troops coming!?Well where is our support?There not what!? Ummm... I got a sick aunt in canada I really should go see her.

[Mack]

SoT 6 is too late to make any meaningful change. Here's a few quick thoughts that should've happened earlier in the conflict:
-- Use operatives to stoke the conflict between FQ and the CS, ensuring a nice, healthy, shooting war erupts.
-- Feign an assault on Missouri's capital and leave a trail back to the Federation of Magic. Lead the CS forces right to the FoM's front door.
-- Capture and release vampires into the 'Burbs.

The best war is the one you don't fight.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If i was the editor, I would have nerfed the hell out of the stats on the Iron Juggernauts.

[ShadowLogan]

You .. are the SUPREME General of all of the Tolkeen defensive forces ..

How would YOU .. personally set up Tolkeen's defenses given SoT 6 tolkeen military unit stats to form any and all defensive formations of your desires.

Don't have SOT series beyond #4, but in general. Sign a military defense pact with Atlantis so that an attack on one is an attack on both. (Or look for another Splurgoth (sp) that wants a foothold on Earth to be their ally).

While Atlantis is written to have restrictions on what it can do, such an alliance could give it some wiggle room as they would be treaty bound to their ally, which may be in conflict with the treaty between the "true superpowers" on the planet. Would be especially useful if Tolkeen can be shown to be the originator without any prompting from Atlantis.

The CS may/maynot know about the restrictions Atlantis has in play from the other powers. Said Tolkeen treaty could complicate things if they did know, which could be enough to paralyze the CS into attacking. Afterall the CS can't be sure how the two treaty's would interact: Would the other powers prevent Atlantis from joining in or not?

[keir451]

I resign my position in the face of the Coalition's numerical and technological superiority, I would not accept being a General of a country that would be willing to stoop so low as to summon evil creatures to do their dirty work.
But before I do I gather all the Daemonix, Devils and all the evil beings that the mages summoned and march them straight into the Coalitions fire without any support. I then use the ensuing distraction to evacuate the city so when Gen. Holmes' surprise assault (surprised all those mages and psionics that could see the future ) reaches Tolkeen he's attacking an empty city.

[The Beast]

Clean out what treasuries I could and head for the hills...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I resign my position in the face of the Coalition's numerical and technological superiority, I would not accept being a General of a country that would be willing to stoop so low as to summon evil creatures to do their dirty work.
But before I do I gather all the Daemonix, Devils and all the evil beings that the mages summoned and march them straight into the Coalitions fire without any support. I then use the ensuing distraction to evacuate the city so when Gen. Holmes' surprise assault (surprised all those mages and psionics that could see the future ) reaches Tolkeen he's attacking an empty city.

they saw it and lefted town , didnt you get the memo

[boxee]

I would have a few leyline walkers scout the end of all leylines leading out of the area. I would have the young dragonsuse their teleportation abilityto get children to a safe city lazlo, new lazlo, or Lord Coake, the children would not be turned away. Next stage would be using hit and run attacks to destroy supply lines, and make the enemy have to split their forces at least to a degree or suffer from faultering supplies.
Create fall back positions within the city, if troops are wounded have healers ready. When the city is about to fall escape. Leave nothing magical behibd, destroy it. Head west into the unclaimed areas. Make a new home on the west coast.

[Nightmask]

Hire the Megaversal Legion, with the kinds of battles they've won they could hand the CS a definitive defeat fairly easily.

[keir451]

Hire the Megaversal Legion, with the kinds of battles they've won they could hand the CS a definitive defeat fairly easily.

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

[Hystrix]

Hire the Megaversal Legion, with the kinds of battles they've won they could hand the CS a definitive defeat fairly easily.

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I thought the Megaversal Legion had somewhere in the ball park of 300,000 soldiers, not 10,000.

[Nightmask]

Hire the Megaversal Legion, with the kinds of battles they've won they could hand the CS a definitive defeat fairly easily.

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

The ML has a lot more troops than that, and given in their backstory they were able to hold off the MECHANOIDS for hours so an entire planet could be evacuated the CS just doesn't measure up against that. Also by defeat I mean 'ensure the CS gives up leaving Tolkeen to survive and rebuild' and not 'set out to conquer and destroy the CS'. Superior numbers don't really mean much against that kind of elite skill and technology, especially when most of the CS troops were green troops seeing their first real battles (let alone seeing actual war horrors).

[Dustin Fireblade]

Hire the Megaversal Legion, with the kinds of battles they've won they could hand the CS a definitive defeat fairly easily.

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I thought the Megaversal Legion had somewhere in the ball park of 300,000 soldiers, not 10,000.

Correct - 300,000 combat troops (along with 50,000 support troops as well).

I'd say they could indeed defeat the CS. Their actions on Actares' World against the Mechanoids should be proof of that.

[keir451]

Hire the Megaversal Legion, with the kinds of battles they've won they could hand the CS a definitive defeat fairly easily.

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I thought the Megaversal Legion had somewhere in the ball park of 300,000 soldiers, not 10,000.

Correct - 300,000 combat troops (along with 50,000 support troops as well).

I'd say they could indeed defeat the CS. Their actions on Actares' World against the Mechanoids should be proof of that.

You're correct that the ML has 350,00 troops total, that was my bad for not re-checking my data.
OK, so Tolkeen with a greater number of forces and their magic the "great equalizer" (according to the books) wasn't able to defeat the CS yet the ML with less troops could? Sure they're tough, yes their tech is higher than the CS's. Nonetheless they are far out numbered by the CS. In the end I find the "logic" of this concept so fault ridden it makes the San Andreas fault line look tame. In the end I can only say "F**k it it's rental!" and leave you all to your dreams.

[Mack]

SoT 6 is too late to make any meaningful change. Here's a few quick thoughts that should've happened earlier in the conflict:
-- Use operatives to stoke the conflict between FQ and the CS, ensuring a nice, healthy, shooting war erupts.
-- Feign an assault on Missouri's capital and leave a trail back to the Federation of Magic. Lead the CS forces right to the FoM's front door.
-- Capture and release vampires into the 'Burbs.

The best war is the one you don't fight.

Addendum: Use the Astral Plane to eliminate CS mid-level officers.

[Nightmask]

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I thought the Megaversal Legion had somewhere in the ball park of 300,000 soldiers, not 10,000.

Correct - 300,000 combat troops (along with 50,000 support troops as well).

I'd say they could indeed defeat the CS. Their actions on Actares' World against the Mechanoids should be proof of that.

You're correct that the ML has 350,00 troops total, that was my bad for not re-checking my data.
OK, so Tolkeen with a greater number of forces and their magic the "great equalizer" (according to the books) wasn't able to defeat the CS yet the ML with less troops could? Sure they're tough, yes their tech is higher than the CS's. Nonetheless they are far out numbered by the CS. In the end I find the "logic" of this concept so fault ridden it makes the San Andreas fault line look tame. In the end I can only say "F**k it it's rental!" and leave you all to your dreams.

You're actually equating the CS as being equal or more powerful than the Mechanoids? Because that's what it takes to claim that the ML would actually lose against the CS, when they've been written as holding off a force vastly more superior in numbers and gear than the CS and doing it long enough a planet of billions could evacuate. You're tossing out faulty logic with 'well they're outnumbered they've got to lose, because I just handwave away all that superior tech and experience as not really mattering'. The CS doesn't have that big a numerical advantage, couldn't possibly bring it all to bear on the ML, the troops are just too green in general (which is quite important in a battle, history shows that elite units with exceptional battle experience can hold of or defeat huge numbers of less experienced opponents ), and is way too sure of its 'unbeatable' nature. ML vs CS is going to win, especially when the ML isn't going for a conquest of the CS but simply ensuring it fails to defeat Tolkeen.

[Giant2005]

I'd abuse the hell out of the Sanctuary spell and repeatedly cast that until the CS realize they are completely impotent and go home or until I decided the CS were too stupid to go home and hit them with a little genocide of their own.

[Nightmask]

I'd abuse the hell out of the Sanctuary spell and repeatedly cast that until the CS realize they are completely impotent and go home or until I decided the CS were too stupid to go home and hit them with a little genocide of their own.

I really wonder why they wouldn't have made more use of spells like Steel Rain; that spell is a serious mass destruction event and can spread chaos in the ranks. A few castings could eliminate all the troops inside its range. Oh right they were designated loser so couldn't go using such spells as intelligently as possible.

[Lenwen]

so Tolkeen with a greater number of forces and their magic the "great equalizer" (according to the books) wasn't able to defeat the CS yet the ML with less troops could? Sure they're tough, yes their tech is higher than the CS's. Nonetheless they are far out numbered by the CS.

The ML .. were outnumbered by BILLIONS .. by the mechanoids .. who had even more advanced weapons then the ML did ..

The CS can not even outnumber the ML .. by a measily 10 to 1 ratio .. And you think the CS .. can overcome the ML ?

No way ..

In a defensive position .. ML could hold out against any human force on Rifts Earth .. with ease .. and win the battle .. and or war ..

The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now.

They have neither of what you claim.Garg empire and Brodkil empire's are BOTH .. more aggressive .. as are ALL .. the Russian warlords ..

And the CS has the 3rd largest "human" military on the planet .. NGR is easily Multiple times larger then the CS military .. Iirc the NGR has more Full conversion cyborgs in its military .. then the CS has total military ..

And then the Chinese .. Their military as it stands right now is 4.5 Million strong .. with 60-70% of the civilian population (which is tens of millions more) that has Military training ..

And then the CS military is here ..

Notice I stated they have the 3rd Largest "Human" military ?

That is due to me not counting monster nations or anyone other then humans .. for example .. The Brodkil , Garg empires BOTH .. have vastly larger military's .. an they are just a fraction of what Atlantis has .. just in atlantis .. then the Chinese "Hells" each have millions strong military's .. I could go on .. but I think you get the picture.

[jedi078]

Here is the problem with this question...meta gaming. Anyone player who was given this task would undoubtedly know about this that and another regarding the deployment of CS troops and even the arrival of General Holmes.

[Nightmask]

Here is the problem with this question...meta gaming. Anyone player who was given this task would undoubtedly know about this that and another regarding the deployment of CS troops and even the arrival of General Holmes.

Ah but that's exactly how the question is worded. It says you personally, so you somehow have ended up in charge of things with what you know (heck maybe you got rifted forward by some special magical ritual to summon forth the one person who might be able to save the day). Not being (in most cases) a trained military officer you're going on what you know instead. I end up there I'm going to go 'Hey we need to get an emissary somehow to these people in South America called the Megaversal Legion, with their support we can save Tolkeen', and depending on when to called in to help maybe see them not falling to corruption as they did in the books.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd abuse the hell out of the Sanctuary spell and repeatedly cast that until the CS realize they are completely impotent and go home or until I decided the CS were too stupid to go home and hit them with a little genocide of their own.

I really wonder why they wouldn't have made more use of spells like Steel Rain; that spell is a serious mass destruction event and can spread chaos in the ranks. A few castings could eliminate all the troops inside its range. Oh right they were designated loser so couldn't go using such spells as intelligently as possible.

So would it have been better to have not given Tolkeen that spell in the first place?

It was introduced in the first book. If they hadn't given them all those spells and elementals and juggernauts, it really would have been a bloodbath.

[Balabanto]

so Tolkeen with a greater number of forces and their magic the "great equalizer" (according to the books) wasn't able to defeat the CS yet the ML with less troops could? Sure they're tough, yes their tech is higher than the CS's. Nonetheless they are far out numbered by the CS.

The ML .. were outnumbered by BILLIONS .. by the mechanoids .. who had even more advanced weapons then the ML did ..

The CS can not even outnumber the ML .. by a measily 10 to 1 ratio .. And you think the CS .. can overcome the ML ?

No way ..

In a defensive position .. ML could hold out against any human force on Rifts Earth .. with ease .. and win the battle .. and or war ..

The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now.

They have neither of what you claim.Garg empire and Brodkil empire's are BOTH .. more aggressive .. as are ALL .. the Russian warlords ..

And the CS has the 3rd largest "human" military on the planet .. NGR is easily Multiple times larger then the CS military .. Iirc the NGR has more Full conversion cyborgs in its military .. then the CS has total military ..

And then the Chinese .. Their military as it stands right now is 4.5 Million strong .. with 60-70% of the civilian population (which is tens of millions more) that has Military training ..

And then the CS military is here ..

Notice I stated they have the 3rd Largest "Human" military ?

That is due to me not counting monster nations or anyone other then humans .. for example .. The Brodkil , Garg empires BOTH .. have vastly larger military's .. an they are just a fraction of what Atlantis has .. just in atlantis .. then the Chinese "Hells" each have millions strong military's .. I could go on .. but I think you get the picture.

Lenwen, it stands to reason that if that's the case, you've never heard of "The Player Characters." No plan survives contact with the players. Somewhere there is a group of PC's clever enough and smart enough and human enough to take the Megaversal Legion.

[Nightmask]

Lenwen, it stands to reason that if that's the case, you've never heard of "The Player Characters." No plan survives contact with the players. Somewhere there is a group of PC's clever enough and smart enough and human enough to take the Megaversal Legion.

Doubtful, the ML is elite as it comes. It's an organization of people to whom the PC can only aspire to be, and unless the PC group is incredibly high level and spends a good 5 or more years of its life building an organization they simply aren't going to take the ML except in their dreams.

[Shark_Force]

Lenwen, it stands to reason that if that's the case, you've never heard of "The Player Characters." No plan survives contact with the players. Somewhere there is a group of PC's clever enough and smart enough and human enough to take the Megaversal Legion.

Doubtful, the ML is elite as it comes. It's an organization of people to whom the PC can only aspire to be, and unless the PC group is incredibly high level and spends a good 5 or more years of its life building an organization they simply aren't going to take the ML except in their dreams.

agreed. at some point, it's the GM's job to just tell the players "no" instead of fudging things to make sure they win. if the 4-6 (or even 10-20) of you get together and decide you're going to defeat the megaversal legion, you'd best have a huge army of your own, or you can expect to just get stomped, hard. honestly, if you decide you engage them openly, as a GM i'd just inform you that your characters are all dead, and you should roll new ones (if you decide to try to do things stealthily, you might have some success... but wouldn't be able to even put a dent in the army in any reasonable timeframe).

[keir451]

Alright, granted that the ML has the highest human available tech on the planet, but where would they get the numbers?
The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now. The CS forces number in the millions while the ML has only a few thousand (somewhere around 10,000 or so). Also the personnel of the ML are US Army soldiers from a second(fictional) Gulf War. Do you honestly think they'll get into a fight against a numerically superior opponent on the kind of terrain that the CS holds, against the kind of resources the CS has?
I will say that the ML could hurt the CS, but to defeat the CS would not be worth their time, effort and lack of money.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I thought the Megaversal Legion had somewhere in the ball park of 300,000 soldiers, not 10,000.

Correct - 300,000 combat troops (along with 50,000 support troops as well).

I'd say they could indeed defeat the CS. Their actions on Actares' World against the Mechanoids should be proof of that.

You're correct that the ML has 350,00 troops total, that was my bad for not re-checking my data.
OK, so Tolkeen with a greater number of forces and their magic the "great equalizer" (according to the books) wasn't able to defeat the CS yet the ML with less troops could? Sure they're tough, yes their tech is higher than the CS's. Nonetheless they are far out numbered by the CS. In the end I find the "logic" of this concept so fault ridden it makes the San Andreas fault line look tame. In the end I can only say "F**k it it's rental!" and leave you all to your dreams.

You're actually equating the CS as being equal or more powerful than the Mechanoids? Because that's what it takes to claim that the ML would actually lose against the CS, when they've been written as holding off a force vastly more superior in numbers and gear than the CS and doing it long enough a planet of billions could evacuate. You're tossing out faulty logic with 'well they're outnumbered they've got to lose, because I just handwave away all that superior tech and experience as not really mattering'. The CS doesn't have that big a numerical advantage, couldn't possibly bring it all to bear on the ML, the troops are just too green in general (which is quite important in a battle, history shows that elite units with exceptional battle experience can hold of or defeat huge numbers of less experienced opponents ), and is way too sure of its 'unbeatable' nature. ML vs CS is going to win, especially when the ML isn't going for a conquest of the CS but simply ensuring it fails to defeat Tolkeen.

I'm not handwaving anything away. Even a technologically superiror force with decades of experience can be brought down under the right circumstances. In the specific case of the ML fighting for Tolkeen vs the CS I believe the ML would; A) Not be stupid enought o fight in the first place, B) realize that even tho' they might win against the CS the cost to them would not be worth it, C) realize the distinct possibility that despite the tech advantage, the CS AT THE TIME, had the advantage in numbers and were not inexperienced raw recruits and could indeed defeat the Megaversal Legion if they applied the totality of their forces to the task.
History also shows that numerically superior numbers also win, let us not forget that those samller numbers vs larger numbers typically die to a man, making their victory pyrrhic in nature.
@ Lenwen; The gargoyles are fighting a losing battle against the NGR, the Brodkil will barely be threat once the NGR is done with the Gargolyes, and China is an absolute joke. If the Chinese in Rifts were to actually step outside their cavern and try to take the fight to the Yama Kings they would be crushed as they just don't have the numbers OR the firepower to fight BILLIONS of Demons.

[Nightmask]

I'm not handwaving anything away. Even a technologically superiror force with decades of experience can be brought down under the right circumstances. In the specific case of the ML fighting for Tolkeen vs the CS I believe the ML would; A) Not be stupid enought o fight in the first place, B) realize that even tho' they might win against the CS the cost to them would not be worth it, C) realize the distinct possibility that despite the tech advantage, the CS AT THE TIME, had the advantage in numbers and were not inexperienced raw recruits and could indeed defeat the Megaversal Legion if they applied the totality of their forces to the task.
History also shows that numerically superior numbers also win, let us not forget that those samller numbers vs larger numbers typically die to a man, making their victory pyrrhic in nature.

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

[Giant2005]

China isn't a joke, they are a hugely powerful force and I bet in a thousand years they will certainly be the most powerful human nation left on Earth.
While the CS and the NGR and everyone else spend their daily lives fighting and dying for their freedom, China can fortify their forces and strengthen their technology as they please and in perfect safety. Not even the Splugorth are an issue to them with a limitless army of Demons protecting their gates.

[Giant2005]

I'm not handwaving anything away. Even a technologically superiror force with decades of experience can be brought down under the right circumstances. In the specific case of the ML fighting for Tolkeen vs the CS I believe the ML would; A) Not be stupid enought o fight in the first place, B) realize that even tho' they might win against the CS the cost to them would not be worth it, C) realize the distinct possibility that despite the tech advantage, the CS AT THE TIME, had the advantage in numbers and were not inexperienced raw recruits and could indeed defeat the Megaversal Legion if they applied the totality of their forces to the task.
History also shows that numerically superior numbers also win, let us not forget that those samller numbers vs larger numbers typically die to a man, making their victory pyrrhic in nature.

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

They didn't just hold their own, they beat the hell out of the Mechanoids. IIRC, it said something like every Legion member there managed to get 30 kills. Considering 1 CS trooper is in no way a match for 1 mechanoid, each Legion member should be able to kill at least 30 CS troopers and probably more. If we take that conservative number of 30, a force of 300,000 Legion could kill 9 million CS troopers without any aid from Tolkeen.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The ML hates what the CS stands for - I wouldn't be surprised if they were approached by Tolkeen, they wouldn't ask for much in return.

I think it's also important to note that the ML is NOT just technologically superior (were talking Pase World or better there). They incorporate magic, psi, supernatural and the whole nine yards into the legion.



But lets back this up and get back to the original intent -

The Tolkeen general hires the Megaversal Legion to defend Tolkeen. Each Tolkeen Army is then augmented by a single Megaversal Legion Army of 50,000.

IMHO, with those numbers added, this should be enough to stop the CS Invasion Force (including the forces from Gen. Holmes, since I'd doubt they would be able to "sneak" in on the ML).

[Lenwen]

so Tolkeen with a greater number of forces and their magic the "great equalizer" (according to the books) wasn't able to defeat the CS yet the ML with less troops could? Sure they're tough, yes their tech is higher than the CS's. Nonetheless they are far out numbered by the CS.

The ML .. were outnumbered by BILLIONS .. by the mechanoids .. who had even more advanced weapons then the ML did ..

The CS can not even outnumber the ML .. by a measily 10 to 1 ratio .. And you think the CS .. can overcome the ML ?

No way ..

In a defensive position .. ML could hold out against any human force on Rifts Earth .. with ease .. and win the battle .. and or war ..

The CS has the 3rd largest and most aggressive army on the planet right now.

They have neither of what you claim.Garg empire and Brodkil empire's are BOTH .. more aggressive .. as are ALL .. the Russian warlords ..

And the CS has the 3rd largest "human" military on the planet .. NGR is easily Multiple times larger then the CS military .. Iirc the NGR has more Full conversion cyborgs in its military .. then the CS has total military ..

And then the Chinese .. Their military as it stands right now is 4.5 Million strong .. with 60-70% of the civilian population (which is tens of millions more) that has Military training ..

And then the CS military is here ..

Notice I stated they have the 3rd Largest "Human" military ?

That is due to me not counting monster nations or anyone other then humans .. for example .. The Brodkil , Garg empires BOTH .. have vastly larger military's .. an they are just a fraction of what Atlantis has .. just in atlantis .. then the Chinese "Hells" each have millions strong military's .. I could go on .. but I think you get the picture.

Lenwen, it stands to reason that if that's the case, you've never heard of "The Player Characters." No plan survives contact with the players. Somewhere there is a group of PC's clever enough and smart enough and human enough to take the Megaversal Legion.

Perhaps in small squad size elements .. but not whole army wise engagements ..

[Nightmask]

Lenwen, it stands to reason that if that's the case, you've never heard of "The Player Characters." No plan survives contact with the players. Somewhere there is a group of PC's clever enough and smart enough and human enough to take the Megaversal Legion.

Perhaps in small squad size elements .. but not whole army wise engagements ..

Given adult dragons ran a PC party even if it were made up of dragons wouldn't make much of a difference, certainly not from a 'let us do battle!' standpoint. Even a tricked out nigh-munchkin party wouldn't pull that off.

[keir451]

I'm not handwaving anything away. Even a technologically superiror force with decades of experience can be brought down under the right circumstances. In the specific case of the ML fighting for Tolkeen vs the CS I believe the ML would; A) Not be stupid enought o fight in the first place, B) realize that even tho' they might win against the CS the cost to them would not be worth it, C) realize the distinct possibility that despite the tech advantage, the CS AT THE TIME, had the advantage in numbers and were not inexperienced raw recruits and could indeed defeat the Megaversal Legion if they applied the totality of their forces to the task.
History also shows that numerically superior numbers also win, let us not forget that those samller numbers vs larger numbers typically die to a man, making their victory pyrrhic in nature.

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

I'm not denying the ML held off the Mechanoids. But as far as even the CS holding off the Mechanoids, the way KS wrote the Mechanoids I feel that anyone could hold them off if the right tactics are used. Nonetheless I just don't agree with your conclusion and I will leave it at that.

[keir451]

China isn't a joke, they are a hugely powerful force and I bet in a thousand years they will certainly be the most powerful human nation left on Earth.
While the CS and the NGR and everyone else spend their daily lives fighting and dying for their freedom, China can fortify their forces and strengthen their technology as they please and in perfect safety. Not even the Splugorth are an issue to them with a limitless army of Demons protecting their gates.

In a thousand years there could be potentially millions of Sea Titan from the New Navy, many of them with a thousand years worth of combat experience.
There's also the possibility that in the intervening thousand years the CS may change their ways, accepting magic users and D-bees into their ranks, becoming even stronger. Now add a few million Sea Titans into that mix, either in their Navy or among the ground forces. China is only safe as long as the Demons don't know they are there, if one of the Yama kings were to discover them and decide they are a threat it'd stop at nothing to obliterate them from existance and it'd stand a reasonably good chance of doing so too as he can literally just throw more slaves and lesser demons at the Chinese until they are overwhelmed.
While the CS & NGR are "fighting and dying for their freedom" they are also gaining more and more experience in combat and they will eventually succeed in their individual goals, so in a thousand years the Chinese will be facing radically different CS and NGR forces, especially if the two nations continue to share tech and aid each other. By that time the Chinese may even look to ally themselves with these two powerful nations. Then again in a thousand years there could be another Great Cataclysm and NONE of them will survive so arguing this is a moot point.

[Nightmask]

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

I'm not denying the ML held off the Mechanoids. But as far as even the CS holding off the Mechanoids, the way KS wrote the Mechanoids I fell that anyone could hold them off if the right tactics are used. Nonetheless I just don't agree with your conclusion.

No, the Mechanoids are a non-nerfed threat that rivals or exceeds the non-nerfed Borg from Star Trek. They'd trash the CS, Triax, and everyone else on the Earth except for the ML in short order. You're vastly downplaying the ML's accomplishments against a threat of universal proportions simply to weight things in favor of the CS because you want the CS winning rather than base things on the merits. The CS just isn't that powerful really, and against an organization that held off a threat that can Unicron an entire planet with ease the CS holds no reasonable chance of winning especially if said group is simply defending a fixed (relatively speaking) position instead of actively conquering. That's bad fanfiction to have the CS able to defeat the ML, even without it being backed by the collective might of Tolkeen.

[SkyeFyre]

What book is the ML in? I'm curious to read up on this myself. Mercenaries?

From the sounds of things, the ML would definitely be able to turn the tides in a stand up fight. The Mechanoids are easily the most fierce threat in the entire Megaverse. The thing is that the problem wasn't a stand up fight. Tolkeen was holding the CS off plenty well on their own (I may be remembering wrong). Their problems started once they got hit from the hive lands. Until that happened, I'm pretty sure that Tolkeen felt pretty confident until that moment, and in that moment it was too late to call on any other forces for help.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

What book is the ML in? I'm curious to read up on this myself. Mercenaries?

From the sounds of things, the ML would definitely be able to turn the tides in a stand up fight. The Mechanoids are easily the most fierce threat in the entire Megaverse. The thing is that the problem wasn't a stand up fight. Tolkeen was holding the CS off plenty well on their own (I may be remembering wrong). Their problems started once they got hit from the hive lands. Until that happened, I'm pretty sure that Tolkeen felt pretty confident until that moment, and in that moment it was too late to call on any other forces for help.

in the South america 2 books thank Rifts Index book

[keir451]

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

I'm not denying the ML held off the Mechanoids. But as far as even the CS holding off the Mechanoids, the way KS wrote the Mechanoids I fell that anyone could hold them off if the right tactics are used. Nonetheless I just don't agree with your conclusion.

No, the Mechanoids are a non-nerfed threat that rivals or exceeds the non-nerfed Borg from Star Trek. They'd trash the CS, Triax, and everyone else on the Earth except for the ML in short order. You're vastly downplaying the ML's accomplishments against a threat of universal proportions simply to weight things in favor of the CS because you want the CS winning rather than base things on the merits. The CS just isn't that powerful really, and against an organization that held off a threat that can Unicron an entire planet with ease the CS holds no reasonable chance of winning especially if said group is simply defending a fixed (relatively speaking) position instead of actively conquering. That's bad fanfiction to have the CS able to defeat the ML, even without it being backed by the collective might of Tolkeen.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not nerfing anything. I looked at the stats and equipment for all forces involved and I just simply came tp a difeerent conclusion, no nerfing no GM or author fiat.
How is the most powerful military in North America not that powerful?
As far as "Bad fanfiction", well the CS's gear can damage ML equipment just like ML gear can damage CS gear it simply comes down to who can inflict the most damage. You say Megaversal Legion, I say CS in the end that's all there is to it.
Now admittedly holding off a Mechanoid invasion for 19 hours is no small feat, but it is not the same as a total defeat of the Mechanoids. And I HAVE run games where the CS has gone up against the Mechanoids and won, no nerfing involved, just alot of really good dice rolls and quick thinking on the part of the players.
In the end I cannot see into your mind to see things your way, I don't agree with you and I'm leaving it at that.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

I'm not denying the ML held off the Mechanoids. But as far as even the CS holding off the Mechanoids, the way KS wrote the Mechanoids I fell that anyone could hold them off if the right tactics are used. Nonetheless I just don't agree with your conclusion.

No, the Mechanoids are a non-nerfed threat that rivals or exceeds the non-nerfed Borg from Star Trek. They'd trash the CS, Triax, and everyone else on the Earth except for the ML in short order. You're vastly downplaying the ML's accomplishments against a threat of universal proportions simply to weight things in favor of the CS because you want the CS winning rather than base things on the merits. The CS just isn't that powerful really, and against an organization that held off a threat that can Unicron an entire planet with ease the CS holds no reasonable chance of winning especially if said group is simply defending a fixed (relatively speaking) position instead of actively conquering. That's bad fanfiction to have the CS able to defeat the ML, even without it being backed by the collective might of Tolkeen.

ML has always seems too munchkin for me, then again everything in south america 1 and 2 seems and that was when the power creep really first started to appear.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well first off the ML fighting the CS wouldn't be a stupid decision, since there is no realizing that they might win, they would win and the cost wouldn't be as high as you think. Seriously the CS simply didn't have the tech OR the numbers to even begin to give the ML a hard time. You haven't bothered to even acknowledge that they've stood up against the vastly superior forces of the Mechanoids and held their own, people who can do that aren't going to find the CS which in the end is just a backwater kingdom on a broken down world much of a challenge.

I'm not denying the ML held off the Mechanoids. But as far as even the CS holding off the Mechanoids, the way KS wrote the Mechanoids I fell that anyone could hold them off if the right tactics are used. Nonetheless I just don't agree with your conclusion.

No, the Mechanoids are a non-nerfed threat that rivals or exceeds the non-nerfed Borg from Star Trek. They'd trash the CS, Triax, and everyone else on the Earth except for the ML in short order. You're vastly downplaying the ML's accomplishments against a threat of universal proportions simply to weight things in favor of the CS because you want the CS winning rather than base things on the merits. The CS just isn't that powerful really, and against an organization that held off a threat that can Unicron an entire planet with ease the CS holds no reasonable chance of winning especially if said group is simply defending a fixed (relatively speaking) position instead of actively conquering. That's bad fanfiction to have the CS able to defeat the ML, even without it being backed by the collective might of Tolkeen.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not nerfing anything. I looked at the stats and equipment for all forces involved and I just simply came tp a difeerent conclusion, no nerfing no GM or author fiat.
How is the most powerful military in North America not that powerful?
As far as "Bad fanfiction", well the CS's gear can damage ML equipment just like ML gear can damage CS gear it simply comes down to who can inflict the most damage. You say Megaversal Legion, I say CS in the end that's all there is to it.
Now admittedly holding off a Mechanoid invasion for 19 hours is no small feat, but it is not the same as a total defeat of the Mechanoids. And I HAVE run games where the CS has gone up against the Mechanoids and won, no nerfing involved, just alot of really good dice rolls and quick thinking on the part of the players.
In the end I cannot see into your mind to see things your way, I don't agree with you and I'm leaving it at that.

With some people ,Coalition is never going to get a fair shake in any thing as some the other nations will

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The ML hates what the CS stands for - I wouldn't be surprised if they were approached by Tolkeen, they wouldn't ask for much in return.

I think it's also important to note that the ML is NOT just technologically superior (were talking Pase World or better there). They incorporate magic, psi, supernatural and the whole nine yards into the legion.



But lets back this up and get back to the original intent -

The Tolkeen general hires the Megaversal Legion to defend Tolkeen. Each Tolkeen Army is then augmented by a single Megaversal Legion Army of 50,000.

IMHO, with those numbers added, this should be enough to stop the CS Invasion Force (including the forces from Gen. Holmes, since I'd doubt they would be able to "sneak" in on the ML).

so put a army up to the north where Holmes surprise attack is coming from isnt that using unavailable information

[Giant2005]

China isn't a joke, they are a hugely powerful force and I bet in a thousand years they will certainly be the most powerful human nation left on Earth.
While the CS and the NGR and everyone else spend their daily lives fighting and dying for their freedom, China can fortify their forces and strengthen their technology as they please and in perfect safety. Not even the Splugorth are an issue to them with a limitless army of Demons protecting their gates.

In a thousand years there could be potentially millions of Sea Titan from the New Navy, many of them with a thousand years worth of combat experience.
There's also the possibility that in the intervening thousand years the CS may change their ways, accepting magic users and D-bees into their ranks, becoming even stronger. Now add a few million Sea Titans into that mix, either in their Navy or among the ground forces. China is only safe as long as the Demons don't know they are there, if one of the Yama kings were to discover them and decide they are a threat it'd stop at nothing to obliterate them from existance and it'd stand a reasonably good chance of doing so too as he can literally just throw more slaves and lesser demons at the Chinese until they are overwhelmed.
While the CS & NGR are "fighting and dying for their freedom" they are also gaining more and more experience in combat and they will eventually succeed in their individual goals, so in a thousand years the Chinese will be facing radically different CS and NGR forces, especially if the two nations continue to share tech and aid each other. By that time the Chinese may even look to ally themselves with these two powerful nations. Then again in a thousand years there could be another Great Cataclysm and NONE of them will survive so arguing this is a moot point.

Even if the Yama Kings figure out where the Geofront is, they still can't actually attack the Geofront due to the positive Chi preventing them from entering. They are literally no threat at all to the Chinese, all they are is a barrier between the Chinese and anyone who can actually be a threat to them. That layer of protection is why they will continue to thrive and their biggest advantage. In a thousand years it is likely that both the NGR and CS will be wiped out but the Geofront will live on.

[Giant2005]

No, the Mechanoids are a non-nerfed threat that rivals or exceeds the non-nerfed Borg from Star Trek. They'd trash the CS, Triax, and everyone else on the Earth except for the ML in short order.

I have to disagree with this. The Mechanoids aren't really that much of an issue - they have already attacked Earth and been sent packing. Their limitation of not being able to dimensionally travel with any kind of accuracy is a huge one. Unless they can set up a manufacturing facility, they are pretty ineefective. On Earth they even had access to a manufacturing facility and still got defeated relatively easily.
If they managed to best the ML and assimilate their dimensional travelling technology, well then the entire megaverse would end.
Also, I am assuming your statement about the ML being the only force to stand a chance against them is limited to the human nations. Obviously there are forces on Earth far more capable of defeating them than the ML.