Rifts, Too many O.C.C.'s?

[keir451]

Does Rifts have too many O.C.C.'s?
I feel that this merits a "YES", while I enjoy the general variety and as a GM I can (and do) limit what classes are available depending upon the campaign. I honestly feel that the number of choices are getting a bit ridiculous. I do not see how one couldmpossibly use all those diiferent classes unless your GM ran a different campaign every week of the month.

[strtkwr]

Yes, I think there are too many OCC's. While there is a huge variety, there are a huge amount of reduntant/similar OCC's.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i going to to said yes, just too many occs/rcc
if they wish to continue this way , then janitors should get their own occ

[Dr Megaverse]

Not really IMO. I look at the abundance of OCCs kind of like having specialization classes right up front. Instead of 5-6 basic classes which branch out into other more specialized classes you can just take your particular specialization right up front. *shrug*.

[Giant2005]

95% of the O.C.C.s I will never use but I personally don't think that there are too many because the existence of those O.C.C.s doesn't negatively impact my life at all. I don't dislike them, I nothing them.

[Carl Gleba]

I'd rather have the problem or more O.C.C.'s than less. Is their redundancy? Sure, but even then I might like variation number 2 of the head hunter, instead of number 1, so at least I have that option open to me. I think it offers a lot more freedom.

[Nether]

There is far to many redundant Occ's that are redundant.
The Headhunter would be perfect for a base class to all the combat soldier types listed in every book that are the same.

To many player RCCs that the player can't remotely relate with and the only reason they would take them is for stats.

There is also waaay to many monsters listed. 99% of them are never seen or heard as a good chunk if not vast majority of enemies are OCCs. There is some good monsters and races, but then there is just the smattering of useless pages. How many books are just fully loaded with unused monsters? How many books have to much space given to monsters?

I find every book has about 2 or 3 OCCs/Rccs that are interesting and good, and then a good amount of redundant OCCs. I don't mind the vast amount of OCCs but they all need to be unique from each other and be interesting. Rifts Australia i can't think of one OCC in there i liked.

Sorry i got a little off topic there but thought it would add to the conversation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I'd rather have the problem or more O.C.C.'s than less. Is their redundancy? Sure, but even then I might like variation number 2 of the head hunter, instead of number 1, so at least I have that option open to me. I think it offers a lot more freedom.

that could be fixed easy with a general skill package for headhunters, then a another skill package for the headhunter's sub-set.
you picka headhunter with the RPA skill package, or Headhunter ground pounder with a infanty skill package and so on.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

not at all. in fact, there should be more. they just need to be different, unique, and fun.

[Shark_Force]

as with several others here, i'm not opposed to more OCCs per se, but i do think that too many of them are unjustified. far too many of them are essentially the same thing as another class, but with a small modification to the skills section, and a small modification to the equipment section.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My answer to the topic poll is 'Both'.
Cause you can look at the question from more then one set of eyes. That of a GM, of a Player, of a Munchkin Player, etc...

[Zer0 Kay]

No, if I wanted to play a template game I'd play an R. Talsorian or White Wolf Game. They haven't even mapped out all of Rifts Earth yet and where ever you go should have unique OCCs.

Different name, same description and skill set: Just put the name down and don't waste space with the rest of the stuff.
Updated fluff: Just update the freaking fluff don't do a whole reprint
Whole new OCC... well duh, put the whole thing in.
Now I wouldn't mind them putting multiple skill selection types into the game.
Military in essence the skills they learned before they joined, the skills they received from basic training, their MOS/AFSC skill package and skills that they pick up. Maybe... maybe have skills that are derived from the skills you have.
Educated non-Military have what they learned before graduate school, their major package and minor package, skills they picked up and derived skills
The uneducated gets skills learned prior to adventuring, skills gained that made them want to adventure, skills picked up and derived skills

This is a skills based game after all not a template game. As I said before if I wanted template... Hey, Teenagers from Outerspace is a good template game and Mekton.

[Killer Cyborg]

There are far too many OCCs that are just repeats or variants on existing OCCs.
Saloon Bum? Bar Maid? Please.
That's what the Vagabond OCC is for.

[Shark_Force]

There are far too many OCCs that are just repeats or variants on existing OCCs.
Saloon Bum? Bar Maid? Please.
That's what the Vagabond OCC is for.

i dunno... saloon bum doesn't sound like the sort to be packing soap, KC. clearly they need an entirely new OCC!

[The Galactus Kid]

not at all. in fact, there should be more. they just need to be different, unique, and fun.

This

[glitterboy2098]

I'd rather have the problem or more O.C.C.'s than less. Is their redundancy? Sure, but even then I might like variation number 2 of the head hunter, instead of number 1, so at least I have that option open to me. I think it offers a lot more freedom.

alot of the redundancy is region specific too. sure, you probably could have used the CS OCC's for the NGR..but you'd need to do alot of "except that" entries to give them access to skills the CS doesn't use but the NGR does, to change the weapon/armor/equipment entries around, and so on and so forth.

frankly, i'd rather just have the redundancy. especially if you'd be referencing OCC's not in the main book. each book should be as self-contained as you can make it. requiring a buyer to buy 2-3 other books just to play using one book's content drives down sales in the long run, since it drives off customers.

ideally, a worldbook should be playable as a set of itself an the main rulebook. and frankly, a great book can be played even if you don't have the right main rulebook, but do have one from another palladium gameline.

[Grinning Demon]

I think there's too many posts asking if there's too many OCC's in Rifts

[TechnoGothic]

MORE, WE NEED MORE !!!

I could see listing "Generic" Classes for US to customize if something else does not currently fit.

But i love the OCCs as Specialations for you true Job Training in Life.

[Giant2005]

Is anyone else worried about the writers reading this and suddenly deciding not to put in as many O.C.C.s? I don't care about a lot of the O.C.C.s out there but I'd hate for them to cut out a potentially awesome O.C.C. in a future book simply because they think we don't want them anymore.

[keir451]

Is anyone else worried about the writers reading this and suddenly deciding not to put in as many O.C.C.s? I don't care about a lot of the O.C.C.s out there but I'd hate for them to cut out a potentially awesome O.C.C. in a future book simply because they think we don't want them anymore.

Not a chance of THAT happening. To the best of my knowledge Kevin studiously ignores the wishes and desires of his customers and simply does what he wants. As evidenced by his creation of a "400 page manuscript" for the Vampire Kingdoms rewrite and statements from customers stating that we don't want or desire a new book on Vampires when other books are long overdue.

[Giant2005]

I'm not worried about KS, he probably isn't going to read this thread but there have already been three people with the "Freelance Writer" tag to comment in this thread.

[Shark_Force]

I'm not worried about KS, he probably isn't going to read this thread but there have already been three people with the "Freelance Writer" tag to comment in this thread.

and pretty much everyone has clarified exactly what they mean.

if this thread causes a freelancer to stop themselves from posting what is essentially another vagabond or rogue scholar or headhunter or merc, only with a slightly different equipment list and one different skill, then great!

if this thread causes a freelancer to not introduce, say, a new type of magic focused on shapechanging, then it's because they didn't read the thread, and no amount of not giving opinion would be the solution.

so, for example, if the england book had replaced the entire assorted knight OCCs with "has a code of honor essentially the same as a cyber-knight <page reference> and more likely to use a mount of some kind" and otherwise told you to just use the headhunter, merc, or other basic man-at-arms OCC, that could have saved a page for something else. mind you, most people don't seem to like rifts england in general, but that's just one example. if you were to just tell us that NGR OCCs get to add literacy, +5% to tech-related skills, and an additional 2 OCC-related or secondary skills, and otherwise use the same OCCs as are in the main rifts book (and then provide sufficient classes in the main rifts book), it would have saved a lot of room also.

now, i will freely admit i wouldn't be happy with a book that referred me to a class in something other than the main book. but in general, if something is just a minor variation on a standard class from the main book, just tell us that and be done with it. i don't need 3 different sailor OCCs, 5 different knight OCCs, 5 different RPA pilot OCCs, etc.

[Carl Gleba]

Check my last few books. Aside from AU they are shy on O.C.C.'s. I agree in the redundancy of O.C.C. and have learned a thing or two since I wrote Three Galaxies. That book is O.C.C. heavy and probably didn't need the FWC O.C.C.'s.

Any O.C.C.'s I add, I try to make sure they bring value to the product as a whole and are not a variation on an existing O.C.C. It has to be cool, fun to play, and unique and different, at least thats da plan.

[mobuttu]

I end up looking at the O.C.C.s as a Concept. A player wants to play X concept, here is the skill package and equipment to go with that concept and depending on the O.C.C. in question, you'll have some class abilities.

Not only that above but also for giving flavor to each specific setting: New West, Russia, etc. are different subsetting by itselfs that IMO they do need new OCC apart from the basic ones. Just my 2 cents.

[The Galactus Kid]

Not a chance of THAT happening. To the best of my knowledge Kevin studiously ignores the wishes and desires of his customers and simply does what he wants. As evidenced by his creation of a "400 page manuscript" for the Vampire Kingdoms rewrite and statements from customers stating that we don't want or desire a new book on Vampires when other books are long overdue.

This is blatantly untrue. To the best of your knowledge = only what you want to hear. Kevin and the staff, as well as us freelancers regularly discuss the games, settings, and rules with a number of people. We hear all number of opinions from fans and just because someone does something that you or a minority of fans doesn't want to see doesn't mean that your opinion has been ignored, nor does it mean that the majority of fans agrees with you. I know a large number of people who have been wanting more information of Rifts vampires for YEARS, and are stoked that they're finally getting it.

Not only that above but also for giving flavor to each specific setting: New West, Russia, etc. are different subsetting by itselfs that IMO they do need new OCC apart from the basic ones. Just my 2 cents.

I agree. The O.C.C.s are supposed to be unique, interesting, fun and different.

[Nether]

I end up looking at the O.C.C.s as a Concept. A player wants to play X concept, here is the skill package and equipment to go with that concept and depending on the O.C.C. in question, you'll have some class abilities.

Not only that above but also for giving flavor to each specific setting: New West, Russia, etc. are different subsetting by itselfs that IMO they do need new OCC apart from the basic ones. Just my 2 cents.

I have to agree with that alot, as those OCCs imo are one of the biggest thing to making a zone and the book.

If you are interested in the OCCs of that zone then you will prolly want to play in it.

England and australia i find the worst as i just don't care for any of the OCCs in those books, and i also think the book themes came up short; end result not very appealing.

Now Psyscape and Fed of Magic i absolutely love, and those two are my bibles for characters.

[strtkwr]

Check my last few books. Aside from AU they are shy on O.C.C.'s. I agree in the redundancy of O.C.C. and have learned a thing or two since I wrote Three Galaxies. That book is O.C.C. heavy and probably didn't need the FWC O.C.C.'s.

Any O.C.C.'s I add, I try to make sure they bring value to the product as a whole and are not a variation on an existing O.C.C. It has to be cool, fun to play, and unique and different, at least thats da plan.

I like this thought process. Don't just make an OCC because you think there needs to be a soldier OCC, but because it is a unique OCC.

Overall, I would have rather that Rifts not do the OCC system, and rather use a system more like HU, where you have an education level, which gets you skill programs. I think using the system in HU gives a lot more variety than the OCC system, with much less room needed in books. I can customize my character based on what I want, by selecting the skill programs I want him to have. This means I can, using the same power category, create a soldier, scientist, vagabond, bum, or teacher, without needing 5 different OCC's. And I can create varations on this character, by changing the skills I take in each skill program. In Rifts, you could change the verbage from Education level to Training level (since most people won't have a formal education), but the basic concept remains the same. Then, in each new book, rather than having pages and pages of new OCC's, you could have a couple pages describing the common occupations, and what they are like (educated vs uneducated for example), and then I could decide if I have a typical or atypical character type, based on the core character creation rules in the main book.

I think this works really well in HU, and I don't see why it would not work in Rifts.

That's just my opinion.

[keir451]

Not a chance of THAT happening. To the best of my knowledge Kevin studiously ignores the wishes and desires of his customers and simply does what he wants. As evidenced by his creation of a "400 page manuscript" for the Vampire Kingdoms rewrite and statements from customers stating that we don't want or desire a new book on Vampires when other books are long overdue.

This is blatantly untrue. To the best of your knowledge = only what you want to hear. Kevin and the staff, as well as us freelancers regularly discuss the games, settings, and rules with a number of people. We hear all number of opinions from fans and just because someone does something that you or a minority of fans doesn't want to see doesn't mean that your opinion has been ignored, nor does it mean that the majority of fans agrees with you. I know a large number of people who have been wanting more information of Rifts vampires for YEARS, and are stoked that they're finally getting it.

Not only that above but also for giving flavor to each specific setting: New West, Russia, etc. are different subsetting by itselfs that IMO they do need new OCC apart from the basic ones. Just my 2 cents.

I agree. The O.C.C.s are supposed to be unique, interesting, fun and different.

I, too, agree that the O.C.C.'s are supposed to be unique and interesting. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case a lot of times. Some times it feels as though the O.C.C.'s are just slapped down to fill gaps and increase page count. I've been gaming Rifts since it hit the shelves, I've bought nearly all the books to ever come out and until the recent trend of (apparently) ignoring his customer base and the (relative) glut of Freelancers imposing their visions on what used to be an awesome game I was always happy with the game. Sure it needed a few tweaks here and there, but now it seems the game is going down hill.
If my post makes you guys step back and reconsider the setting, and how everything fits insted of just going "WOW, Man, that'd be Cool!", a bit before putting pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) then I've done my job as a customer and a gamer.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

I'm not worried about KS, he probably isn't going to read this thread but there have already been three people with the "Freelance Writer" tag to comment in this thread.

nothing anybody says on the internet will change what i write. so don't worry.

[keir451]

No! are you kidding, every region has a special quality to it. I think the imagination needs to be expanded and new idea's have yet to be placed on the pages. I would love to see some more alien O.C.C. or R.C.C. jut to put a kink in the armor of it all.

I have a ton of idea's to elevate the game or reduce the game but they all add flavor to aliens, Rifts and HU.

That's good!! I'd love to see some of your ideas. I and my friends have also come up with some awesome stuff, but due to what we've seen happen to others work once Kevin gets his hands on it we've decided (for now) not to try and publish the material.

[The Galactus Kid]

No! are you kidding, every region has a special quality to it. I think the imagination needs to be expanded and new idea's have yet to be placed on the pages. I would love to see some more alien O.C.C. or R.C.C. jut to put a kink in the armor of it all.

I have a ton of idea's to elevate the game or reduce the game but they all add flavor to aliens, Rifts and HU.

That's good!! I'd love to see some of your ideas. I and my friends have also come up with some awesome stuff, but due to what we've seen happen to others work once Kevin gets his hands on it we've decided (for now) not to try and publish the material.

Submit it to the Rifter

[keir451]

No! are you kidding, every region has a special quality to it. I think the imagination needs to be expanded and new idea's have yet to be placed on the pages. I would love to see some more alien O.C.C. or R.C.C. jut to put a kink in the armor of it all.

I have a ton of idea's to elevate the game or reduce the game but they all add flavor to aliens, Rifts and HU.

That's good!! I'd love to see some of your ideas. I and my friends have also come up with some awesome stuff, but due to what we've seen happen to others work once Kevin gets his hands on it we've decided (for now) not to try and publish the material.

Submit it to the Rifter

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

[Carl Gleba]

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

It has been my experience that Rifter submissions are edited for grammar, not for content. One of the submission points is to highlight house rules or alternate rules (I.E. Jason Richards famous P.P.E. channeling rules comes to mind Rifter 21). So there would be no point in changing the content in a Rifter. An official book for cannon is something different entirely.

[Cinos]

Yes.


To expound, too many O.C.C's that are the same thing with a new name. I'm fine with a bajillion and eight classes, if there needs to be a bajillion and eight classes and each one is different enough to warrant sucking up 3 to 6 pages.

[keir451]

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

It has been my experience that Rifter submissions are edited for grammar, not for content. One of the submission points is to highlight house rules or alternate rules (I.E. Jason Richards famous P.P.E. channeling rules comes to mind Rifter 21). So there would be no point in changing the content in a Rifter. An official book for cannon is something different entirely.

Therein lies my concern. I remember Mark Sumimoto's original stats for equipment that later ended up in Merc Ops and the difference in stats was, to say the least, significant. THAT is the area in which I would desire to have more control over. IF my material were to be published and then altered from my orirginal intent I would be very unhappy (and that's being polite) with Mr. Siembieda. So to avoid the issue I simply choose not to send in my materials.

[Mack]

Where's the "Not nearly enough" option?

[The Galactus Kid]

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

It has been my experience that Rifter submissions are edited for grammar, not for content. One of the submission points is to highlight house rules or alternate rules (I.E. Jason Richards famous P.P.E. channeling rules comes to mind Rifter 21). So there would be no point in changing the content in a Rifter. An official book for cannon is something different entirely.

Therein lies my concern. I remember Mark Sumimoto's original stats for equipment that later ended up in Merc Ops and the difference in stats was, to say the least, significant. THAT is the area in which I would desire to have more control over. IF my material were to be published and then altered from my orirginal intent I would be very unhappy (and that's being polite) with Mr. Siembieda. So to avoid the issue I simply choose not to send in my materials.

Then good luck getting your material published. I have found that flexbility and a thick skin are required for any writer, and if you aren't willing to have your work edited, then your list of potential employers as a freelancer is reduced drastically.

[keir451]

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

It has been my experience that Rifter submissions are edited for grammar, not for content. One of the submission points is to highlight house rules or alternate rules (I.E. Jason Richards famous P.P.E. channeling rules comes to mind Rifter 21). So there would be no point in changing the content in a Rifter. An official book for cannon is something different entirely.

Therein lies my concern. I remember Mark Sumimoto's original stats for equipment that later ended up in Merc Ops and the difference in stats was, to say the least, significant. THAT is the area in which I would desire to have more control over. IF my material were to be published and then altered from my orirginal intent I would be very unhappy (and that's being polite) with Mr. Siembieda. So to avoid the issue I simply choose not to send in my materials.

Then good luck getting your material published. I have found that flexbility and a thick skin are required for any writer, and if you aren't willing to have your work edited, then your list of potential employers as a freelancer is reduced drastically.

That's why I'm not a Freelancer, because I WILL NOT BEND on this. I'll put them up here (on the boards) for everyone's enjoyment and I WILL accept critiques or suggestions, but when it comes to publishing...well I feel much the same way about MY work as I imagine Kevin and everyone else does. It's MY work and MY ideas, they are designed a certain way and changing them alters the way they are meant to work, which alters the flow of the story as well. Also there IS a difference between reasonable editing (spelling or a better approach to the story) and the sheer level of constant nerfing that I've seen in Rifts.

[Jason Richards]

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

It has been my experience that Rifter submissions are edited for grammar, not for content. One of the submission points is to highlight house rules or alternate rules (I.E. Jason Richards famous P.P.E. channeling rules comes to mind Rifter 21). So there would be no point in changing the content in a Rifter. An official book for cannon is something different entirely.

Therein lies my concern. I remember Mark Sumimoto's original stats for equipment that later ended up in Merc Ops and the difference in stats was, to say the least, significant. THAT is the area in which I would desire to have more control over. IF my material were to be published and then altered from my orirginal intent I would be very unhappy (and that's being polite) with Mr. Siembieda. So to avoid the issue I simply choose not to send in my materials.

We work for Kevin. He is the boss. It's his game, his world, and he writes the checks. He gets to change whatever he wants. It's exactly the same for ANY publisher, and actually for any employer in general. It baffles me when people get upset at the idea, former Palladium freelancers included. Kevin made plenty of changes to my stuff that I don't like or agree with, but he bought it from me, so more power to him. It doesn't in the least affect me, my game, or some sort of BS artistic/gaming integrity or something.

A universal note about your gaming material, and mine, and Gleba's, and Sinsapaughs, and everyone's: it's not high art. It's a friggin RPG. Lighten up.

[glitterboy2098]

i figure the trick is to anticipate what he'd like, and do your best to present it a way he'd like. to paraphrase kevin himself, give it "wow factor".

a good idea for anyone hoping to become a freelancer would be to go listen to the gateway to the megaverse podcasts interviewing kevin. we often got into writing, brainstorming, innovating, and so on. it really helps establish what kevin likes most when he reads submissions.

[keir451]

I, personally, would love to, if I could be assured of a full say in what get edited and published to make sure the FULL content of my material is not altered from what I intended it to be. That's my biggest gripe, I see good stuff in the Rifters. Then, when it gets transferred to a main book, it is hacked and nerfed to pieces.

It has been my experience that Rifter submissions are edited for grammar, not for content. One of the submission points is to highlight house rules or alternate rules (I.E. Jason Richards famous P.P.E. channeling rules comes to mind Rifter 21). So there would be no point in changing the content in a Rifter. An official book for cannon is something different entirely.

Therein lies my concern. I remember Mark Sumimoto's original stats for equipment that later ended up in Merc Ops and the difference in stats was, to say the least, significant. THAT is the area in which I would desire to have more control over. IF my material were to be published and then altered from my orirginal intent I would be very unhappy (and that's being polite) with Mr. Siembieda. So to avoid the issue I simply choose not to send in my materials.

We work for Kevin. He is the boss. It's his game, his world, and he writes the checks. He gets to change whatever he wants. It's exactly the same for ANY publisher, and actually for any employer in general. It baffles me when people get upset at the idea, former Palladium freelancers included. Kevin made plenty of changes to my stuff that I don't like or agree with, but he bought it from me, so more power to him. It doesn't in the least affect me, my game, or some sort of BS artistic/gaming integrity or something.

A universal note about your gaming material, and mine, and Gleba's, and Sinsapaughs, and everyone's: it's not high art. It's a friggin RPG. Lighten up.

Integrity (artistic or otherwise) is NEVER BS. I'd be submitting my ideas not because I want to please Kevin, I'd be submitting them because I want to present my ideas as I wrote them for the gamers, not the game creator.

[Nether]

But thats the difference between a hobbyist and a professional.

Hobbyist isn't doing it for money and it isn't crucial to your financial survival in your career.

Professional like the writers do this for a living, and it brings in a paycheck. So if someone that is going to purchase your materiel wants to make changes, well all that matters is it was interesting enough to get purchased.

Everyone has what is a acceptable line they won't cross, but when it puts food on your plate and gas in the tank you have alot more to consider before you jump on the high horse.

[keir451]

Integrity (artistic or otherwise) is NEVER BS. I'd be submitting my ideas not because I want to please Kevin, I'd be submitting them because I want to present my ideas as I wrote them for the gamers, not the game creator.

Integrity (in this case meaning no dilution from the original to the final product) is assumed lost when you give up your rights to the material in question by accepting any form of conpensation. If you want to maintain "integrity" over a product, you should release it on your own, via your website.

But then, I have to chuckle to myself (atleast a little) to have someone talk about integrity of their product being lost when they submit it to the actual creator of the idea for which your product is based with their express intention of profiting off of those ideas.

I know, which is why I won't publish it outside of Palladium books. Unless the copyrights suddenly lapse and I suddenly become rich enough to buy them, riiight like THAT'll ever happen . I'll just keep it for personal fun and enjoyment, not for profit.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I dont think there are too many, just too many redndant ones, and reprints with one or two minor alterations.

[glitterboy2098]

Integrity (artistic or otherwise) is NEVER BS. I'd be submitting my ideas not because I want to please Kevin, I'd be submitting them because I want to present my ideas as I wrote them for the gamers, not the game creator.

Integrity (in this case meaning no dilution from the original to the final product) is assumed lost when you give up your rights to the material in question by accepting any form of conpensation. If you want to maintain "integrity" over a product, you should release it on your own, via your website.

But then, I have to chuckle to myself (atleast a little) to have someone talk about integrity of their product being lost when they submit it to the actual creator of the idea for which your product is based with their express intention of profiting off of those ideas.

honestly, the only way to surrender your integrity as a freelance writer of anything would be to turn in something with none of your own ideas. if kevin says he wants you to rewrite a section, well, he's the boss. you just have to make the changes he wants while keeping your vision as intact as possible. if he changes things after you hand it over, well, he's the boss. not much you can do about it by that point. pretty much a truism in any business. novel companies do it all the time too.(as the guys over at the writing exscuses podcast have discussd many times)

[keir451]

Integrity (artistic or otherwise) is NEVER BS. I'd be submitting my ideas not because I want to please Kevin, I'd be submitting them because I want to present my ideas as I wrote them for the gamers, not the game creator.

Integrity (in this case meaning no dilution from the original to the final product) is assumed lost when you give up your rights to the material in question by accepting any form of conpensation. If you want to maintain "integrity" over a product, you should release it on your own, via your website.

But then, I have to chuckle to myself (atleast a little) to have someone talk about integrity of their product being lost when they submit it to the actual creator of the idea for which your product is based with their express intention of profiting off of those ideas.

honestly, the only way to surrender your integrity as a freelance writer of anything would be to turn in something with none of your own ideas. if kevin says he wants you to rewrite a section, well, he's the boss. you just have to make the changes he wants while keeping your vision as intact as possible. if he changes things after you hand it over, well, he's the boss. not much you can do about it by that point. pretty much a truism in any business. novel companies do it all the time too.(as the guys over at the writing exscuses podcast have discussd many times)

True, tho' SOME authors DO get to write what they want and the publisher doesn't interfere that much. BUT this IS Kevin's call not ours.
Anyway back to topic, I do sometimes feel there is a bit of a glut of O.C.C.s. I, personally, only use a few select ones when I play (usually Mercs, RUE and Underseas and almost always a tech based character) and as a GM I limit certain ones but it just seems we've too many to reasonably play.

[Slight001]

Anyway back to topic, I do sometimes feel there is a bit of a glut of O.C.C.s. I, personally, only use a few select ones when I play (usually Mercs, RUE and Underseas and almost always a tech based character) and as a GM I limit certain ones but it just seems we've too many to reasonably play.

Probably means we're nearing the perfect load of O.C.C.'s .

I personally will likely never play a mage/Magic user... I'll admit I'm tempted by the Battle Mage... but only tempted. My GM however seems to really enjoy them and loves the magic user he plays in another game. Personally I prefer Psionic's and Men-at-Arms. I also know players who refuse to play anything but the so called 'adventurers'... and that's just in NA... lets not go into the insanity of Europe and Asia ... I'd also rather forget South America (I & II) existed...

Me I've yet to find a 'class' I'm fully satisfied playing. I'm enjoying the standard Juicer that I'm playing now but as I said I'm not satisfied. I'd like a more combat orientated Psionic that wasn't a cyber knight... I've looked at the Psi-Warrior and found it's concept interesting but to me it's just not right... close but in need of a rewrite. I like the idea of a Psionic that gains power slowly but the background and flow of Psi-Warrior just doesn't sit well with me... "We don't care if you are a monster just be sure to kill other monsters and it's all right. Ok good now to begin your training." Seriously? that's just in-freaken-sane... Oh well... at least my Psi-Trouper will sit well with me.

In closing I'll just say this. Some want a lot and some want a little yet all are looking for that one perfect fit that makes everything all right...

[keir451]

Anyway back to topic, I do sometimes feel there is a bit of a glut of O.C.C.s. I, personally, only use a few select ones when I play (usually Mercs, RUE and Underseas and almost always a tech based character) and as a GM I limit certain ones but it just seems we've too many to reasonably play.

Probably means we're nearing the perfect load of O.C.C.'s .I personally will likely never play a mage/Magic user... I'll admit I'm tempted by the Battle Mage... but only tempted. My GM however seems to really enjoy them and loves the magic user he plays in another game. Personally I prefer Psionic's and Men-at-Arms. I also know players who refuse to play anything but the so called 'adventurers'... and that's just in NA... lets not go into the insanity of Europe and Asia ... I'd also rather forget South America (I & II) existed...

Me I've yet to find a 'class' I'm fully satisfied playing. I'm enjoying the standard Juicer that I'm playing now but as I said I'm not satisfied. I'd like a more combat orientated Psionic that wasn't a cyber knight... I've looked at the Psi-Warrior and found it's concept interesting but to me it's just not right... close but in need of a rewrite. I like the idea of a Psionic that gains power slowly but the background and flow of Psi-Warrior just doesn't sit well with me... "We don't care if you are a monster just be sure to kill other monsters and it's all right. Ok good now to begin your training." Seriously? that's just in-freaken-sane... Oh well... at least my Psi-Trouper will sit well with me.

In closing I'll just say this. Some want a lot and some want a little yet all are looking for that one perfect fit that makes everything all right...

Hopefully you're right. I love many of the O.C.C.s but cannot find the time to play them all.

[Mack]

Anyway back to topic, I do sometimes feel there is a bit of a glut of O.C.C.s. I, personally, only use a few select ones when I play (usually Mercs, RUE and Underseas and almost always a tech based character) and as a GM I limit certain ones but it just seems we've too many to reasonably play.

Probably means we're nearing the perfect load of O.C.C.'s .

I personally will likely never play a mage/Magic user... I'll admit I'm tempted by the Battle Mage... but only tempted. My GM however seems to really enjoy them and loves the magic user he plays in another game. Personally I prefer Psionic's and Men-at-Arms. I also know players who refuse to play anything but the so called 'adventurers'... and that's just in NA... lets not go into the insanity of Europe and Asia ... I'd also rather forget South America (I & II) existed...

Me I've yet to find a 'class' I'm fully satisfied playing. I'm enjoying the standard Juicer that I'm playing now but as I said I'm not satisfied. I'd like a more combat orientated Psionic that wasn't a cyber knight... I've looked at the Psi-Warrior and found it's concept interesting but to me it's just not right... close but in need of a rewrite. I like the idea of a Psionic that gains power slowly but the background and flow of Psi-Warrior just doesn't sit well with me... "We don't care if you are a monster just be sure to kill other monsters and it's all right. Ok good now to begin your training." Seriously? that's just in-freaken-sane... Oh well... at least my Psi-Trouper will sit well with me.

In closing I'll just say this. Some want a lot and some want a little yet all are looking for that one perfect fit that makes everything all right...

Recommend you take a look at the Super-Spy, Psionic option in Mercenaries. It's a good blend of powers, skills, and starting equipment. I've used this class in the past, and just changed his background from "spy" to "straight forward merc." Probably my overall favorite psionic class.

[Illendaver]

Has anyone ever played the villager out of world book 17?... No? Me neither. (although, now that I have thought of it, I most likely am going to just to see the look on my teammates faces when I say "Nope, I'm just billy-joe-bob the ex-farmer. Now I am trying to become a dog breeder, and I figured that if I followed you guys and "helped" kill some monsters I might get enough money to buy my dream ranch filled with dog kennels.")

Its been pretty well said, but I am hoping for actual new OCCs, not a merc with a new paint job.