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Ok can a player with super TK with being lvl five, pick up four knives or swords and attack one target with all four weapons at the same timed? So i hit you with four vibro knives doing 4d6.. All with one action?

The write up says it's the same as normal TK just you can lift more.please advise need official ruling

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to throw all four knives simultaneously as a volley. Unfortunately you won't get an official ruling since that situation is table specific to you and your group.

They wouldn't hurt the target because the blades have to be turned on first, just picking up vibro-weapons lying around they're turned off you have to turn them on so since it'd take more finesse than he can manage to activate them they just do SDC damage.

I think for their example the weapons would be turned on and ready for MD.

Grell wrote:I think for their example the weapons would be turned on and ready for MD.

Doesn't sound like it; he's picking the vibro-weapons up with the TK therefor they aren't active as no one leaves a weapon like that just lying around turned on if only because they don't want to waste power (let alone the risk of self-injury). Unless the player has specific reason to justify them being turned on before trying to use them as TK-thrown/guided weapons they should be in the off-setting therefor no MD should be inflicted. At a minimum there'd be some kind of check required to ensure that even then it was the damaging edge that hit and not the hilt, you just can't toss them like rocks and expect them to hit right just because.

Provided they spent the actions to pick up the knives with TK (and turn them on) I don't see any reason they can't launch them as a volley for combined damage. For the example it seems that they just want to know whether or not they can throw them all at once. I wouldn't over complicate things by making a check to see if the bladed side hits or not though.

Grell wrote:Provided they spent the actions to pick up the knives with TK (and turn them on) I don't see any reason they can't launch them as a volley for combined damage. For the example it seems that they just want to know whether or not they can throw them all at once. I wouldn't over complicate things by making a check to see if the bladed side hits or not though.

I wouldn't think it possible to turn them on with the TK, that's something delicate and most end up using TK in a brute force application, and you're talking simultaneously picking up four different vibro-weapons at once and turn them on at the same time. Not something in keeping with the more limited applications possible for Palladium Psionics. We aren't talking Carrie or Jean Grey style telekinetics.

Nightmask wrote:

Grell wrote:Provided they spent the actions to pick up the knives with TK (and turn them on) I don't see any reason they can't launch them as a volley for combined damage. For the example it seems that they just want to know whether or not they can throw them all at once. I wouldn't over complicate things by making a check to see if the bladed side hits or not though.

I wouldn't think it possible to turn them on with the TK, that's something delicate and most end up using TK in a brute force application, and you're talking simultaneously picking up four different vibro-weapons at once and turn them on at the same time. Not something in keeping with the more limited applications possible for Palladium Psionics. We aren't talking Carrie or Jean Grey style telekinetics.

Gotta agree with Grell, i think your making it to complicated to use TK. It doesn't matter what most use TK for, it is still TK and within what it does. You are also sound like your viewing it as if he is throwing them by a invisible hand that mimics his, so therefore if he isn't a throwing you penalize him with not getting the blade in. It is the will of his mind manifest in force.

No offense but you sound like a gm that makes it so hard for a player to do anything without spending a action ext to do every little thing. I've found that it only frustrates the players and you just gave the players another power to avoid when playing with a gm like that. So basically i would just be more concerned with doing productive actions like instead shooting a gun that does 1d6x10 instead of putting up with gm headaches.

Nether wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I wouldn't think it possible to turn them on with the TK, that's something delicate and most end up using TK in a brute force application, and you're talking simultaneously picking up four different vibro-weapons at once and turn them on at the same time. Not something in keeping with the more limited applications possible for Palladium Psionics. We aren't talking Carrie or Jean Grey style telekinetics.

Gotta agree with Grell, i think your making it to complicated to use TK. It doesn't matter what most use TK for, it is still TK and within what it does. You are also sound like your viewing it as if he is throwing them by a invisible hand that mimics his, so therefore if he isn't a throwing you penalize him with not getting the blade in. It is the will of his mind manifest in force.

No offense but you sound like a gm that makes it so hard for a player to do anything without spending a action ext to do every little thing. I've found that it only frustrates the players and you just gave the players another power to avoid when playing with a gm like that. So basically i would just be more concerned with doing productive actions like instead shooting a gun that does 1d6x10 instead of putting up with gm headaches.

Reading way too much into a response on a very limited and specific question.

Meanwhile regarding the actual question you're talking someone simultaneously turning on 4 vibro-weapons at once and in that same instant launching them at someone else, presumably someone without any experience in doing anything of the sort. Think as an untrained person you could pick up two vibro-blades and turn them on at the same time and throw them at someone? Why would the Telekinetic similarly untrained be able to do twice that with his mind? It's well within the purview of a GM to expect the PC to have to actually make a check when doing something they've no experience in doing no matter what it might be. So telekinetically pick up and toss four rocks? Sure you've done it before. Telekinetically pick up four vibro-blades, mentally turn them on, AND try and launch them at a target without experience in doing it? Check time. That's hardly expecting something overbearingly restrictive out of the player.

Hmmm this is the debate that the group is currently in. I see it opened the same one here as well. I always value everyones opinions and as always grateful for any help thrown my way. As always I'm just trying to keep balance but th players feelings and concerns are very important to me. Hence why I asked for help. It's just per the write up it says as per normal TK but with greater range,duration,damage...

I just want to try to make a fair call.

Well with TK you can activate switches and other simple, delicate tasks, so turning on the vibro knives is a given. One action to pick up each item is also stated so really the only question is can you launch as a volley, to which I would rule as a 'yes'.

RUE page 182, Super Tk wrote:The char. can use STk to manipulate as many as one object per level of his experience.

yes, the L5 char with STk can pick up four V-blades and use them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

RUE page 182, Super Tk wrote:The char. can use STk to manipulate as many as one object per level of his experience.

yes, the L5 char with STk can pick up four V-blades and use them.

in fact, as i read it, they can even use 5. i'd require that they use all 5 for the same action, mind you... you could leave 4 to parry and fire one (provided you have automatic parry), but i don't think you could, say, use 3 to cut an MDC wire, one that's turned off to take a screw out of something, and the 5th to stab someone all in the same action; but definitely using the multiple objects you're manipulating in the same basic action, i have no problem with. doing different things i would probably require skills to be spent similar to WP paired weapons (and i'd probably cap it at some point... getting 5 different actions with each action is a bit ridiculous).

As far as I can tell, the books aren't clear.
You can "manipulate" one object per level, but there isn't any real indication of whether or not this means using more than one object to attack at the same time.

So it looks like a GM's call.

TK is a super psionic, and Super TK is even one step ahead of that which should mean if player is looking to do something that isn't overly complicated then ya let him do it. It is 4d6, so what. In this instance, to go against letting the player use it this way would only discourage him and others from using TK power, and if there is always going to be the same knittpicking about small things like this then it might discourage his players from playing psychics in the long run if this is what they have to look forward to.

Even if the rules were a bit more vague about the situation and to how many little things you can do, it is a simple action to pick up four objects and hit the button on it to turn them on.

This is not player abuse in this example, so let them have fun.

Nightmask wrote:

Nether wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I wouldn't think it possible to turn them on with the TK, that's something delicate and most end up using TK in a brute force application, and you're talking simultaneously picking up four different vibro-weapons at once and turn them on at the same time. Not something in keeping with the more limited applications possible for Palladium Psionics. We aren't talking Carrie or Jean Grey style telekinetics.

Gotta agree with Grell, i think your making it to complicated to use TK. It doesn't matter what most use TK for, it is still TK and within what it does. You are also sound like your viewing it as if he is throwing them by a invisible hand that mimics his, so therefore if he isn't a throwing you penalize him with not getting the blade in. It is the will of his mind manifest in force.

No offense but you sound like a gm that makes it so hard for a player to do anything without spending a action ext to do every little thing. I've found that it only frustrates the players and you just gave the players another power to avoid when playing with a gm like that. So basically i would just be more concerned with doing productive actions like instead shooting a gun that does 1d6x10 instead of putting up with gm headaches.

Reading way too much into a response on a very limited and specific question.

Meanwhile regarding the actual question you're talking someone simultaneously turning on 4 vibro-weapons at once and in that same instant launching them at someone else, presumably someone without any experience in doing anything of the sort. Think as an untrained person you could pick up two vibro-blades and turn them on at the same time and throw them at someone? Why would the Telekinetic similarly untrained be able to do twice that with his mind? It's well within the purview of a GM to expect the PC to have to actually make a check when doing something they've no experience in doing no matter what it might be. So telekinetically pick up and toss four rocks? Sure you've done it before. Telekinetically pick up four vibro-blades, mentally turn them on, AND try and launch them at a target without experience in doing it? Check time. That's hardly expecting something overbearingly restrictive out of the player.

Your responses set the bar to how you handle things.

Regarding TK though, to me you make using Tk sound overly complicated. You can think of something a whole lot easier than it would be to do it in almost all cases. Then introduce psionic power which is completely controlled by your mind to what you want to acomplish and you have a far better ability to do so.

So with Tk you could as you suggest, view it as a invisible hand you wield and use it in the same ways as you would a hand. Or you can view it as a extension of your will, you will the four objects turned on and hurled point first into the target. Or you can view it as a sheet of force that lifts up the objects and has a back edge so as to drive the objects into object.
Tk doesn't have to stop at giving a initial nudge as you can hold it and drive it all the way to target.

Just saying there is many ways to look at it but also gauge the overall action. He is doing 4d6 with it, whoopy.

Rhomphaia wrote:The way I would rule it is as follows;

One action to pick the objects up (all vibro-knives).
One action to activate the objects.
One action to hurl them at the target.

One must remember that this action, in combat, will be highly visible and while the target may not know who did it, they will be alerted to a psychic and unless the attack came from behind, they will be able to parry/dodge (only one, perhaps two blades in case of parry) normally. These are not guided missiles and not subject to volley rules.

By that same gaming style, it should take a soldier 3 actions to shoot someone.

One action to raise weapon towards target
One action to aim down weapon sites for accurate shot
One action to pull the trigger

To each their own in gm'ing style.

If you were gm'ing me i would just avoid playing characters with powers like that as there is very little debate about just shooting someone for far superior damage and it takes 1 action vs 3. It sounds like Tech would be the way to go in said games.

In my games I have always let them play it that way,

The mind melter used to pull the juicers knives out of his sheaths and fling them at targets.

As for turning them on if you want a in game reason. Pulling it from your sheath could be the motion that activates it. You don't want it to be overly complex.


Juicer: "I'm not your freaken weapons locker."
Mind Melter. "You are if I say so....Or I could have you think your a 12 year old girl."

I like how many people think the 'most realistic' method is the best way to judge it. While the 'most realistic' way is a bit like reality is - in that it's relatively dull and vapid.

I'd simply decide based on damage output - 4D6 isn't that much, really. Of course, he'll then go on to try it with vibro swords for 8D6, then ask why he's told no. But if he doesn't appreciate getting the 4D6 from before, he's being a bit of a brat anyway.

Rhomphaia wrote:

Nether wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:The way I would rule it is as follows;

One action to pick the objects up (all vibro-knives).
One action to activate the objects.
One action to hurl them at the target.

One must remember that this action, in combat, will be highly visible and while the target may not know who did it, they will be alerted to a psychic and unless the attack came from behind, they will be able to parry/dodge (only one, perhaps two blades in case of parry) normally. These are not guided missiles and not subject to volley rules.

By that same gaming style, it should take a soldier 3 actions to shoot someone.

One action to raise weapon towards target
One action to aim down weapon sites for accurate shot
One action to pull the trigger

To each their own in gm'ing style.

If you were gm'ing me i would just avoid playing characters with powers like that as there is very little debate about just shooting someone for far superior damage and it takes 1 action vs 3. It sounds like Tech would be the way to go in said games.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. You can be funny sometimes...

There is a world of difference between raising and firing a gun and lifting four objects and hurling them at at target with one's mind. In my example, the psychic must (mentally) target five objects; each of the four knives and the target of the attack he/she is going to level them at. As for aiming the gun, if I am taking a liberal interpretation of the term, there are only two "targets"; the gun and the thing being shot. It takes far less focus to snap off a shot from a gun than it is to divide one's attention among five different objects.

Also note that in my example, that the psychic is manipulating all four knives at the same time. Can a soldier shoot four guns at once? No, they cannot. At best it's two and that is with special training. The psychic just needs the power and they are good to go. That alone is pretty generous in my opinion.

If you were gaming at my table and tried to pull your power-gaming, munchkin bull**** logic on me, I'd politely point the door out to you and remind you that if you do not like any of my rules, you can find another group.

Do you even know what "munchkin bull**** logic" is? Because this applies more to your power trip gm style more than anything i debated, which was based on logic and not this is how i like it so this is how it is . I never said you were wrong and only debated that it sounded unfair to handicap a person playing a psychic. My example was to show that you micro manage one type of action but not another. You know its fine if you are one of those gm's that are all about you vs the players and it's your way or the highway mentality. If this situation was happening in your game with one of your players then congratulations, you just threw out a player because "how dare he talk back to you or question your judgement".

As pointed out and if you look at the rules it clearly shows in RUE that he can manipulate 1 item a level. How far you are willing to allow "manipulation" to go is up to you in this case, but from a balance point, the player did about the same damage of another player using a e-rifle but took him 3 times as much effort. I guess in some peoples book that is good balance and gameplay...

Nether wrote:Do you even know what "munchkin bull**** logic" is? Because this applies more to your power trip gm style more than anything i debated, which was based on logic and not this is how i like it so this is how it is . I never said you were wrong and only debated that it sounded unfair to handicap a person playing a psychic. My example was to show that you micro manage one type of action but not another. You know its fine if you are one of those gm's that are all about you vs the players and it's your way or the highway mentality. If this situation was happening in your game with one of your players then congratulations, you just threw out a player because "how dare he talk back to you or question your judgement".

As pointed out and if you look at the rules it clearly shows in RUE that he can manipulate 1 item a level. How far you are willing to allow "manipulation" to go is up to you in this case, but from a balance point, the player did about the same damage of another player using a e-rifle but took him 3 times as much effort. I guess in some peoples book that is good balance and gameplay...

Hard as it might be for you to believe but it's not all about dealing damage and taking it, that's Roll-playing, not role-playing. You also attempt to relate two types of actions together that aren't sufficiently similar to use in the argument in question. Given you complain about not being able to deal a lot of damage and just going with the 1d6x10 weapon is on the roll-playing end, and complaining about not being able to deal more damage the other way so dismissing it as 'worthless'.

As far as game balance and game play go, balanced doesn't mean all things are equal only that everything gets a reasonably good showing. Some things work best in one situation but not another, they don't have to nor should they have to work fine in all situations. If you're unhappy at not being able to work 4 weapons or more at once (and it's obvious it'd quickly end up seeing the super-TK trying to use multiple 1d6x10 weapons on the same target and dealing more damage each action than a Glitter Boy's Boom Gun) well that's just the way it is.

Nightmask wrote:

Nether wrote:Do you even know what "munchkin bull**** logic" is? Because this applies more to your power trip gm style more than anything i debated, which was based on logic and not this is how i like it so this is how it is . I never said you were wrong and only debated that it sounded unfair to handicap a person playing a psychic. My example was to show that you micro manage one type of action but not another. You know its fine if you are one of those gm's that are all about you vs the players and it's your way or the highway mentality. If this situation was happening in your game with one of your players then congratulations, you just threw out a player because "how dare he talk back to you or question your judgement".

As pointed out and if you look at the rules it clearly shows in RUE that he can manipulate 1 item a level. How far you are willing to allow "manipulation" to go is up to you in this case, but from a balance point, the player did about the same damage of another player using a e-rifle but took him 3 times as much effort. I guess in some peoples book that is good balance and gameplay...

Hard as it might be for you to believe but it's not all about dealing damage and taking it, that's Roll-playing, not role-playing. You also attempt to relate two types of actions together that aren't sufficiently similar to use in the argument in question. Given you complain about not being able to deal a lot of damage and just going with the 1d6x10 weapon is on the roll-playing end, and complaining about not being able to deal more damage the other way so dismissing it as 'worthless'.

As far as game balance and game play go, balanced doesn't mean all things are equal only that everything gets a reasonably good showing. Some things work best in one situation but not another, they don't have to nor should they have to work fine in all situations. If you're unhappy at not being able to work 4 weapons or more at once (and it's obvious it'd quickly end up seeing the super-TK trying to use multiple 1d6x10 weapons on the same target and dealing more damage each action than a Glitter Boy's Boom Gun) well that's just the way it is.

Yes but the OP's concern has nothing to do with role-playing, it has everything to do with roll-playing as this is a mechanics issue.

Regardless of what actions would be shown in comparison, the only comparison and point is in performing said actions. So even if you take the shooting example, you could still say it takes 2 actions to aim and shoot. Willing 4 buttons pressed to turn on said blades is a matter of a glance that took you a fraction of a second to see and will. Now if the player wanted to do something different with all 4 blades like have each of them battle a different opponent like a dancing blade, then yes very much so that would be more actions. But to pick up 4 blades that you can see, will the buttons pressed and they mentally drive that at a target seems like its just as much exertion as it would be to raise a gun, aim and shoot someone.

To us the shooting aspect comes naturally because many of us have done it and/or played shooter games with a controller where you perform said action effortlessly. But sinse we don't really have tk psychics in our world it is a bit more difficult to understand.

A cinema example would be x-men movie where magneto turns all the guns on the cops and roosters them. That was alot of guns but they are showing it that he wills his power to function that way and not that he has to focus individually on eat weapon. Now that is pure roleplaying without mechanics to get in the way.

I'm not the only one that has posted here that has the opinion that it would have been a 1 action move.

And i found it offensive that he would call me a power gaming munchkin because i questioned his logic when i've not shown any desire for it to be uber powerful or exploitive, aka a debate.

Nether wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Hard as it might be for you to believe but it's not all about dealing damage and taking it, that's Roll-playing, not role-playing. You also attempt to relate two types of actions together that aren't sufficiently similar to use in the argument in question. Given you complain about not being able to deal a lot of damage and just going with the 1d6x10 weapon is on the roll-playing end, and complaining about not being able to deal more damage the other way so dismissing it as 'worthless'.

As far as game balance and game play go, balanced doesn't mean all things are equal only that everything gets a reasonably good showing. Some things work best in one situation but not another, they don't have to nor should they have to work fine in all situations. If you're unhappy at not being able to work 4 weapons or more at once (and it's obvious it'd quickly end up seeing the super-TK trying to use multiple 1d6x10 weapons on the same target and dealing more damage each action than a Glitter Boy's Boom Gun) well that's just the way it is.

Yes but the OP's concern has nothing to do with role-playing, it has everything to do with roll-playing as this is a mechanics issue.

Regardless of what actions would be shown in comparison, the only comparison and point is in performing said actions. So even if you take the shooting example, you could still say it takes 2 actions to aim and shoot. Willing 4 buttons pressed to turn on said blades is a matter of a glance that took you a fraction of a second to see and will. Now if the player wanted to do something different with all 4 blades like have each of them battle a different opponent like a dancing blade, then yes very much so that would be more actions. But to pick up 4 blades that you can see, will the buttons pressed and they mentally drive that at a target seems like its just as much exertion as it would be to raise a gun, aim and shoot someone.

To us the shooting aspect comes naturally because many of us have done it and/or played shooter games with a controller where you perform said action effortlessly. But sinse we don't really have tk psychics in our world it is a bit more difficult to understand.

A cinema example would be x-men movie where magneto turns all the guns on the cops and roosters them. That was alot of guns but they are showing it that he wills his power to function that way and not that he has to focus individually on eat weapon. Now that is pure roleplaying without mechanics to get in the way.

I'm not the only one that has posted here that has the opinion that it would have been a 1 action move.

And i found it offensive that he would call me a power gaming munchkin because i questioned his logic when i've not shown any desire for it to be uber powerful or exploitive, aka a debate.

In the X-men example from the first movie Magneto is a mature mutant well practiced in the use of his powers to engage in multiple simultaneous actions, not attempting a first time stunt as suggested in this thread. It's one thing for someone with experience at it to pull such a stunt off and make it look easy, a newbie trying it should if not fail miserably trying to show off but at least have to struggle to make it work. Remember don't equate those with experience with those without, the experienced guy always makes it look easy which often leads to embarrassment or tragedy when a wannabe is sure he can do it to and jumps in feet first and falls flat on their face as a result.

As far as the rest goes, if offended try and not respond in kind (and yes I know it can be hard and I'll never claim I haven't failed on occasion myself in that regard) and either address it as neutrally as possible or simply not respond at all.

Rhomphaia wrote:Now, where I get the third action is that it only makes sense to already be manipulating the blades in order to turn them on, since the "switch" being flipped is a part of the manipulated object and not an object in itself. This I will admit is debatable, but I have never had a problem with this and neither have my players.

I will leave the belittling comments to you, but I actually agree with you that 1 action maybe too little, but two actions would be appropriate as you point out with the exception of your 3 attack being added on, as you said the description clearly shows it would be 1 action to attack with it, and maybe 1 to activate the blades. "hurling an object as if thrown or causing it to buzz around a room swinging and hitting like a club controlled by an invisible hand"

The last quote sounds like it is pretty clear that you wouldn't need any 3rd action in there as you can swing and hit while weapon is buzzing around the room. Not to mention that at 5th level he has 10 tk actions he can do but is only using 8 of them on 4 vibro blades. I could also see going the way of in this of still making it one attack, but the last 2 tk actions would be the flipping the switch.

Exactly how do I handicap a psychic? How is it that a GM who rules that "if a psychic can see it and spend the ISP then he can manipulate it, no strike roll" be handicapping that psychic? How is it that a GM who allows the same psychic to pick up four vibro-knives and throw them do the same thing with shooting guns handicaps them? Explain this to me and then I might believe I have a "power-trip GM style" and that you are able to argue your case with logic.

The comment about handicapping a psychic is in reference to making them over micro-manage by say making them spend 3 attacks for debated action which is 1 action to many already.
Who said anything about no strike roll? Please show me where i said that "it requires no strike roll" anywhere in prior.
I also showed that the gm could also make a ruling based on balance (not the only option) that sinse it was equal to a regular gun attack of 4d6 you could just charge the 1 action as i described up which is still feasible.
Now doing the same thing with guns would need more scrutiny as those damages can add up, and by the rules it would be 2 actions to pick up # of guns based on your level and shoot them at 1 target.
If power tripping is trying to play by the rules and be a fair gm, then i guess i'm a power tripper.

No, I follow the game rules as closely as I can and I follow logic as closely as I can. Both tell me that shooting a gun is one melee action and picking up four vibro-knives and throwing them via TK is two or three. Oh, and I was trying to be nice, so I did not mention it before, but your "micro-management" example was wrong. By drawing on the "logic" (I use this term loosely) that you are using to shoot holes in my ruling, then firing a gun would take no less than five melee actions all things being equal.
1) Draw gun.
2) Chamber round/charge capacitor.
3) Aim gun.
4) Disengage safety.
5) Fire.

You missed the point. It doesn't matter how many actions you want it to break down to, 3 or 5 or any other number. It was to show that the tk action was being micromanaged heavily vs shooting a gun. Ie. like making debated action cost 3 actions when the rules say it's only 2.
I originally had only 1 action, but i can admit when i am wrong and i would now make it 2 actions. This has never been an issue in my games ever, as in came up as all the TK'ers were more interested in throwing the person around, which is strange considering how much i play rifts.

No, I don't throw out players who take a logical, thoughtful objection to a ruling I make. I toss out players who pitch a fit, roll on the floor screaming and crying and calling me names because they don't like a ruling. From everything I have seen so far, you wouldn't last five minutes at my table.

If you think i have pitched a fit or just being childish here then i haven't. Everything i've discussed has been just that, a discussion to a fair and balanced gm response to OP's inquiry. When you started with the insults i naturally and unfortunately gave into it and escalated by suggesting how you are a gm nazi for lack of a better term because of prior quotes.

Rhomphaia wrote:

As pointed out and if you look at the rules it clearly shows in RUE that he can manipulate 1 item a level. How far you are willing to allow "manipulation" to go is up to you in this case, but from a balance point, the player did about the same damage of another player using a e-rifle but took him 3 times as much effort. I guess in some peoples book that is good balance and gameplay.

Well if the player firing the rifle were able to pick it up, aim and fire it with his mind, move it to fire at the target from an unprotected angle, position that rifle to constantly keep the target guessing what direction he is going to be fired on from and manipulate multiple such rifles in this manner, then you'd have a point. But, that isn't the case, so you don't. Deal with it.

I noticed that in your ranting and nit-picking, you conveniently did not address this point (I even bolded it for you). Until you do, I have nothing further to say to you.

I must also add that I did not start the insults. You did by being dismissive, trying to play my GMing style off as unimportant simply because you did not agree with it.

Looking at all the prior posts between you and i, show me where i insulted your gaming style first to warrant such negative responses from you?

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. You can be funny sometimes...

There is a world of difference between raising and firing a gun and lifting four objects and hurling them at at target with one's mind. In my example, the psychic must (mentally) target five objects; each of the four knives and the target of the attack he/she is going to level them at. As for aiming the gun, if I am taking a liberal interpretation of the term, there are only two "targets"; the gun and the thing being shot. It takes far less focus to snap off a shot from a gun than it is to divide one's attention among five different objects.

Also note that in my example, that the psychic is manipulating all four knives at the same time. Can a soldier shoot four guns at once? No, they cannot. At best it's two and that is with special training. The psychic just needs the power and they are good to go. That alone is pretty generous in my opinion.

If you were gaming at my table and tried to pull your power-gaming, munchkin bull**** logic on me, I'd politely point the door out to you and remind you that if you do not like any of my rules, you can find another group.

This was the first insult leveled, and it was by you.

By that same gaming style, it should take a soldier 3 actions to shoot someone.

One action to raise weapon towards target
One action to aim down weapon sites for accurate shot
One action to pull the trigger

To each their own in gm'ing style.

If you were gm'ing me i would just avoid playing characters with powers like that as there is very little debate about just shooting someone for far superior damage and it takes 1 action vs 3. It sounds like Tech would be the way to go in said games.

If this is the response that you "felt" was insulting you then your dead wrong and dilusional. There is no insult there or derogatory remark about your gm'ing, only that by your preferences i would choose something else. The only point i was making here was the comparison of micromanaging actions and gm'ing style preferences.

Otherwise show me where i insulted you first?
Then your next post was alot more derogatory and looking to start a flame war.

I didn't think that bolded point was worth responding to as i'm not sure of the point you were trying to make there. So how would a person not be aware of floating rifles around them shooting at them, and wouldn't that just equate to the same thing as a melter doing the same action this thread is about but with guns instead? So enlighten me to what your point in the bold was, and i'm sure i will hear it in more derogatory style from you.

So...this subject has been on my mind for a while. I was thinking that the knives should take an action to activate for game balance, but after reading a few of the examples here, like the Boom Gun, maybe that logic doesn't float. The real question is, does Super TK give the character the ability to accurately fire a knife straight at an opponent? Does a knife tumble? Should there be an extra penalty? Should targeting and knife bonus skills apply? I think the Super TK should be able to activate the knife and toss it with one action. Think of the potential with Dead Ball Grenades!

OKay shameless plug here. But has anyone here read the dresden files?

They have a really good magic system in that series that I enjoy greatly.. And it brings up a good point that I will emphasis(sp) here.

TK is not pulling a gun and firing it.. Not sure why its being related to that... They are doing it at the speed of thought....

Think about that one for a moment. As fast as you can think something you can preform an action(with in reason of course).

I have very little training as far as firearms go and I can still draw my gun switch the safety off and get off a shot with one smooth action(less then 15 seconds)

So comming from that point of view drawing 4 knives and flicking a on switch does not seem so hard.

amodernheathen wrote:One thing I have noticed. Why are we assuming that the character is throwing the knives. This is a Mind Melter with Super TK. When I play a psychic with TK, I don't throw knives, I just stab or slice at range.

I suggested that earlier that there is multiple ways you could use the weapons but it seems alot view it as them being thrown by a invisible hand, though in most cases i see it as limitting the flavor of Tk.

Thank all u all shed alot of light on this. But at the same time opened new question and possible situation lol. But I am still very grateful for all this info.

Thank you all again

amodernheathen wrote:One thing I have noticed. Why are we assuming that the character is throwing the knives. This is a Mind Melter with Super TK. When I play a psychic with TK, I don't throw knives, I just stab or slice at range.

You make a good point. I'd still rule that once the prep work is done to get the knives under TK control (spending attacks, turning them on, etc) there's no reason why the psychic couldn't just maintain control and hack/slash his way to victory with all of them at once, though I might invoke a loss of parrying ability after each combined strike in much the same way W.P. Paired Weapons does.

Grell wrote:

amodernheathen wrote:One thing I have noticed. Why are we assuming that the character is throwing the knives. This is a Mind Melter with Super TK. When I play a psychic with TK, I don't throw knives, I just stab or slice at range.

You make a good point. I'd still rule that once the prep work is done to get the knives under TK control (spending attacks, turning them on, etc) there's no reason why the psychic couldn't just maintain control and hack/slash his way to victory with all of them at once, though I might invoke a loss of parrying ability after each combined strike in much the same way W.P. Paired Weapons does.

the loss of parry in WP paired is presumed to be referring to making simultaneous attacks, since that's the only way it remotely makes sense. heck, it might even be in an FAQ or clarified otherwise somewhere.

I think it makes sense to lose the parry in favor of wielding multiple weapons simultaneously to strike with super TK.

It's the "TYPE" of action that matters to me more than the action itself.

Can a 5th level Mind Melter lift five targets? Sure it can.

Can a 5th level Mind Melter smash five grabbed targets into each other? Sure it can.

Can a 5th level Mind Melter smash Bob, crush Fred, and swing Manny, Moe, and Jack in a circle? No! Each of these is separate, because each action is different. Otherwise, my vibrobrade duels Manny, while I crush Bob, Smash Fred, Throw Moe, and twiddle Jack. This is overly powerful for a single ability because a Mind Melter is not an independently tasking computer.

Balabanto wrote:It's the "TYPE" of action that matters to me more than the action itself.

Can a 5th level Mind Melter lift five targets? Sure it can.

Can a 5th level Mind Melter smash five grabbed targets into each other? Sure it can.

Can a 5th level Mind Melter smash Bob, crush Fred, and swing Manny, Moe, and Jack in a circle? No! Each of these is separate, because each action is different. Otherwise, my vibrobrade duels Manny, while I crush Bob, Smash Fred, Throw Moe, and twiddle Jack. This is overly powerful for a single ability because a Mind Melter is not an independently tasking computer.

I like this train of thought and I agree with it.

In the IRL gaming group I was in we gave living targets of TK a save vs Psi.

In my groups we just let the opponents use parry, dodge as normal as it is a physical attack coming at them. Save vs Psi makes no sense for us as you mentally willing those knives thrown at you to go away, it won't affect them one bit. Not to mention the mind isn't under attack in said case.

My 2 cents.

Rhomphaia wrote:

Nether wrote:In my groups we just let the opponents use parry, dodge as normal as it is a physical attack coming at them. Save vs Psi makes no sense for us as you mentally willing those knives thrown at you to go away, it won't affect them one bit. Not to mention the mind isn't under attack in said case.

My 2 cents.

This is appropriate as it is a physical attack. It's no different than striking someone with a psi-sword or throwing a chair at them. The save vs psionics is for purely mental attacks, such as Induce Sleep, Bio-Manipulation, MPO, Telepathy and the like.

However, where I personally draw the line is giving a character being directly manipulated with TK a "dodge" vs the attack. In this case I can see a save, a mental "shrugging off" of the mental energies. However, parrying and dodging a Mind Melter while he is trying to pick you up with his mind is just...no.

The mental save makes good sense, maybe i should consider current defense of grabs to that. We've just been using parry/dodge for melter trying to grab you as it isn't ideal, but we just treat it as you squirming, wiggling loose and pushing the invisible force away from you to break free. Main concern of mine is that there is some type resistance, albiet a sv or parry/dodge.

thefirstromeo wrote:Ok can a player with super TK with being lvl five, pick up four knives or swords and attack one target with all four weapons at the same timed? So i hit you with four vibro knives doing 4d6.. All with one action?

The write up says it's the same as normal TK just you can lift more.please advise need official ruling

This is a fairly simple question, that should've only received a simple answer. As mentioned above in the quoted area -pick up and attack "one" target... with S TK I say hell yeah the action is feasible in a single action, its basically the same as picking up "ANY" other simple items ie. sticks, dinner plates or whatever. As far as the damage done, that depends on their current state and if they even hit.

Now that being said picking an item up implies that its just laying there, whether it was on or off wasn't stated so therefore not part of the question. If it was in a sheath or contained in another way then that would justify another action spent and in concern to flipping them on, its something as simple as a button or slide switch and it is a Super ability then no that shouldn't require an additional action in my opinion because its not a complicated action. Hell it even states under Telekinesis: door knob is turned and the door flung open, that's two seperate actions but done in only one melee action. I would say that until it is role-played and tried I would agree that they would progressively get better at it and possibly be able to develope a mental quickdraw ability much later on. Now as a GM I would ask are they bunched together within a few inches or are they four items fanned out at different starting points and distances heading to the same target, and depending on which to me would determine how the target is able to try to dodge or parry whether once for all or against each one. One person brought up the question if it would tumble, no its not like a thrown or combustion propelled object that has only an initial controlling force when it starts in motion and weakens over a distance, with Telekinesis its an extension of the will that is projecting it toward a certain point following it along its set path until the character looses concentration by going to a different action or the item is subject to an additional force such as being parried or an unlikely successful grab or outside the telekinetic range, unless the player intentionally wants it to tumble which would be pointless and just for fun I'd have them roll percentage to see which side hits because its not like a skilled and measured thrown knife whose training takes into account the rotations.

Rhomphaia wrote:

Nether wrote:In my groups we just let the opponents use parry, dodge as normal as it is a physical attack coming at them. Save vs Psi makes no sense for us as you mentally willing those knives thrown at you to go away, it won't affect them one bit. Not to mention the mind isn't under attack in said case.

My 2 cents.

This is appropriate as it is a physical attack. It's no different than striking someone with a psi-sword or throwing a chair at them. The save vs psionics is for purely mental attacks, such as Induce Sleep, Bio-Manipulation, MPO, Telepathy and the like.

However, where I personally draw the line is giving a character being directly manipulated with TK a "dodge" vs the attack. In this case I can see a save, a mental "shrugging off" of the mental energies. However, parrying and dodging a Mind Melter while he is trying to pick you up with his mind is just...no.

I treat it as a ranged attack where dodge is the save. Same as a gun. Point blank to 10 feet, -10, out to 50 feet, -5.

thefirstromeo wrote:Ok can a player with super TK with being lvl five, pick up four knives or swords and attack one target with all four weapons at the same timed? So i hit you with four vibro knives doing 4d6.. All with one action?

The write up says it's the same as normal TK just you can lift more.please advise need official ruling

I would say the answer is a disappointing, "it depends". The thing to keep in mind is while some psychic powers allow the character to work his mojo while only being generally aware of the target's location, telekinesis (and Super by extension) requires the psychic to have a line of sight on the object to be manipulated. As such if the psychic glances down at one knife on his hip and does a draw-activate-fling, it's not a problem. If the psychic has a knife on each hip and tries to do the same thing (assuming he's using Super TK and is high enough level to manipulate two or more items, of course) then it's no dice since it's impossible to visually observe them both at the same time. Switch it up a bit where the knives are all together and laid out on a table, (or maybe already in hand and held up where they can all be observed), then it should be possible for the psychic to manipulate the knives as a collective.

To be honest, I hadn't thought of using Super TK in this way before due to the more detailed description of ordinary TK and its focus on manipulating one object at a time, and Super's more anemic write-up failing to counter that imagery.

Nether wrote:

Rhomphaia wrote:The way I would rule it is as follows;

One action to pick the objects up (all vibro-knives).
One action to activate the objects.
One action to hurl them at the target.

One must remember that this action, in combat, will be highly visible and while the target may not know who did it, they will be alerted to a psychic and unless the attack came from behind, they will be able to parry/dodge (only one, perhaps two blades in case of parry) normally. These are not guided missiles and not subject to volley rules.

By that same gaming style, it should take a soldier 3 actions to shoot someone.

One action to raise weapon towards target
One action to aim down weapon sites for accurate shot
One action to pull the trigger

To each their own in gm'ing style.

If you were gm'ing me i would just avoid playing characters with powers like that as there is very little debate about just shooting someone for far superior damage and it takes 1 action vs 3. It sounds like Tech would be the way to go in said games.

I agree with Nether that it should be one fluid action, though by somewhat different reasoning. The power's description cites a few examples of what constitutes a single action. One of which is turning a doorknob and opening a door. Though technically two different actions, it is officially defined as one. To me that says that so long as the manipulations are isolated to a single system (a door and all its attachments, a vibro-knife and its various buttons, ...), the psychic is free to make a reasonable number or manipulations to it as a single melee action/attack.

I guess people actually genuinely believe they know 'how it works' - despite how other people have an equal amount of belief, yet they believe in something else entirely. How true belief always seems, eh?

Or if it's just being made up, what's it being made up in reference to? Hey, my take is that they psychic has to meditate for eight hours before he cand do this just the once! Doesn't sound fun? Well heck, no one else is considering what's fun when they make up theirs, why do I have to?

Noon wrote:Or if it's just being made up, what's it being made up in reference to? Hey, my take is that they psychic has to meditate for eight hours before he cand do this just the once! Doesn't sound fun? Well heck, no one else is considering what's fun when they make up theirs, why do I have to?

Do what you like in your game if it floats your boat. Personally, I prefer to base my arguments in established canon material so it's objective and fair. From that, "fun" is a byproduct because no one feels cheated or screwed over. But that's just me.