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The Dragon races are presented in playable form (as noted in Dragons and Gods, a worth while book no matter, even if you don't use the Dragons as PCs). However, I'm pleased as peach they are generally not a core playable race. Too often they are presented as too common, or too powerful without the proper backing (tons of health does not a good villain / pseudo-god make), and thus become too kill-able within the mechanics of the game.

I wouldnt want them but the way they are presented in D&G's you could easily create and RCC (or convert Rifts).

Had a dragon as a PC in a Rifts campaign once... the person playing it stayed in human form most of the time, and was very successful. The dragon as a PC in a fantasy campaign was not so much a success, but much of that was due to the fact the player decided to play him as an arrogant jerk, and they let him be a sacrificial lamb. However, later had one in PF that worked great!

Cinos wrote:The Dragon races are presented in playable form (as noted in Dragons and Gods, a worth while book no matter, even if you don't use the Dragons as PCs). However, I'm pleased as peach they are generally not a core playable race. Too often they are presented as too common, or too powerful without the proper backing (tons of health does not a good villain / pseudo-god make), and thus become too kill-able within the mechanics of the game.

Agreed, D&G is a great resources for PF.

We did play dragons once a long time ago. Boy did that game get out of hand, but it also got boring pretty quick too. No real character development.

I had a Dragon character once. The GM allowed it because while my character was far more powerful than the rest of the group, my character was pretending to be an elf and didn't want to be exposed. The dragon avoided physical combat and always dealt with combat with magic. The whole trying to keep the guise of a simple elf wizard was hard with the GM because since the dragon didn't need to eat because it could live off the magic, I had to remember to say, I stop and eat something, or acting tried, or pretending to have a low physical strength. If I didn't declare it, he treat it like I was a dragon not a dragon pretending to be an elf, so I had to always remember to be careful about everything I said and did.

Dragon PCs are great, in any setting.
You have to watch out for your Metamorphis time limit if your "pretending" your not a Dragon to your group. Otherwise, the Chiang-ku is best for Dragon PCs, their unlimited metamorph time is helpful pretending your whatever else.

zyanitevp wrote:Had a dragon as a PC in a Rifts campaign once... the person playing it stayed in human form most of the time, and was very successful. The dragon as a PC in a fantasy campaign was not so much a success, but much of that was due to the fact the player decided to play him as an arrogant jerk, and they let him be a sacrificial lamb.

Well Dragons usually ARE arrogant Jerks so he was playing in character.

However, I would not allow an ADULT dragon as a PC in any PFRPG game. A Hatchling on the other hand might be a possability depending on whom is playing it. BTW FYI The hatchling would have to learn/earn/buy all of it's magical knowledge just like any other PC Character class without getting a Free ride. There might be some exceptions on a case by case basis depending on the sub race of dragon.

FreelancerMar wrote:

zyanitevp wrote:Had a dragon as a PC in a Rifts campaign once... the person playing it stayed in human form most of the time, and was very successful. The dragon as a PC in a fantasy campaign was not so much a success, but much of that was due to the fact the player decided to play him as an arrogant jerk, and they let him be a sacrificial lamb.

Well Dragons usually ARE arrogant Jerks so he was playing in character.

However, I would not allow an ADULT dragon as a PC in any PFRPG game. A Hatchling on the other hand might be a possability depending on whom is playing it. BTW FYI The hatchling would have to learn/earn/buy all of it's magical knowledge just like any other PC Character class without getting a Free ride. There might be some exceptions on a case by case basis depending on the sub race of dragon.

Only Great Horn Dragons start with spells at birth. The others learn spells by 2nd level to 3rd level. Ogg Chaing-ku all know Tattoo Magic...

Check out the draconid in Rifts: Phase World. The ONLY thing that we will allow into our games as PC's. Natural AR of 10, 3D4 x 10 SDC, 2D6x10 HP. And lastly, drop the RCC skills and insert PFRPG OCC skills instead. In our games they can be any OCC.

For a rifts game, hatchling dragon PCs are downright underpowered when they stand next to technological equivalents. A good power armor pilot even in a Samson will kick their ass all over the street. Dragons are tanks because they can have a lot of MDC and draw fire for the group because theyre big.

In Palladium Fantasy you dont have all the tech options, and while I have no experience with playing or GMing them, I think a hatchling in fantasy would be overpowered.

I’ve had players run hatchling dragons as characters in Rifts. It has never really played out well in the long run. In Rifts the stats are fine. The real problem is the limited metamorphosis coupled, because of the attention dragons draw, and the dragons’ natural disposition. Really if anyone plays them as they should be it just won’t go well in the long run.

In PF, even a hatchling would be way too powerful. And, the attention dragons draw as problem would be amplified ten fold because they are so powerful. I just don’t think it would turn out well.

Now, if you had the right player and GM, and game revolved around the dragon and the hiccups of having a party with a dragon, you might have a good game on your hands. Might.

If you use the D&G Hatchling Dragons, they hold their own better in Rifts against Tech. The D&G version gives all Hatchling a good selection of skills. While the Rifts versions lack skills.

Starmage21 wrote:For a rifts game, hatchling dragon PCs are downright underpowered when they stand next to technological equivalents. A good power armor pilot even in a Samson will kick their ass all over the street. Dragons are tanks because they can have a lot of MDC and draw fire for the group because theyre big.

Kinda disagree with this. A hatchling played smart using all their abilities can walk all over big tech things. I know i could play that and I've had players do all kinds of stuff.

Starmage21 wrote:In Palladium Fantasy you dont have all the tech options, and while I have no experience with playing or GMing them, I think a hatchling in fantasy would be overpowered.

Agree here.

IMHO, depending on the power level of the game a dragon hatchling is playable in PFRPG. The characters need a very good and experianced player who knows the powers, advantages, disadvantages of the dragon hatchling. The adult dragon is out of scope. I wouldn't let the dragon character start with the Rifts skills and not the skills from D&G. The main problem for a dragon is his metamorphosis time and a player has to keep its eye on this other wispe *buff* in the middle of a town market a dragon metamorphes into his/her true dragon form.

Carl Gleba wrote:

Starmage21 wrote:For a rifts game, hatchling dragon PCs are downright underpowered when they stand next to technological equivalents. A good power armor pilot even in a Samson will kick their ass all over the street. Dragons are tanks because they can have a lot of MDC and draw fire for the group because theyre big.

Kinda disagree with this. A hatchling played smart using all their abilities can walk all over big tech things. I know i could play that and I've had players do all kinds of stuff.

Starmage21 wrote:In Palladium Fantasy you dont have all the tech options, and while I have no experience with playing or GMing them, I think a hatchling in fantasy would be overpowered.

Agree here.

Disagree, for the first time, with Carl! Right power level, experienced PC's both playing the hatchling and those around the hatchling, high level enemies- worked really well.
Also, what if the Minion War has spilled out of the LOTD?.... Then you need all the high power you can get, or if the characters want to go into LOTD...

zyanitevp wrote:Disagree, for the first time, with Carl! Right power level, experienced PC's both playing the hatchling and those around the hatchling, high level enemies- worked really well.
Also, what if the Minion War has spilled out of the LOTD?.... Then you need all the high power you can get, or if the characters want to go into LOTD...

I've played Dragons in PF and it lost its interest after the first battle. If you're playing a high powered game sure thats one thing, but any other game a dragon would walk over just about anything. Its all about context.

Yeah in PF, a Dragon can work, but the power level needs to match their ability at some point. maybe not the whole story, but having the Dragon encounter monsters of the same power level from time to time is required. Ir very high level wizards, etc...Does not hurt using a Godling from PotM either.

one thing to remember is RPG isn't just about combat. lot of people focus on the combat aspects and not the role playing aspect. Playing a hatchling dragon with a good GM can be challenging. with all that power the dragon can have a huge hubris but often forget things like, numbers can make a difference, or that sometimes there is a time for subtle. Sure a dragon can take down a patrol real easy and generally leaving clear signs it was a dragon who did the work. when the patrol doesn't return they will send out scouts and learn a dragon is in the land, now every two bit person who thinks they are a dragon slayer will be after the dragon, some will be useless others will be a challenge but they will be a problem to the dragons plans. having people and groups randomly show up to attack the dragon regardless of the other events going on can ware on even a dragon. The more the dragon kills the higher the reward until groups and creatures that can take down a dragon hatchling will take the call. if the reward is high enough people will buy magical equipment that takes away the dragons advantage and give them an edge.

It's also difficult to do business under these conditions. Even if the dragon says "I'll just use metaphor" after time people will wise up and it will cause issues like a changeling hunt. Towns may start issuing quarantine where people have to watched for a day before they are allowed to enter to make sure they aren't a dragon in disguise.

tuvermage wrote:one thing to remember is RPG isn't just about combat. lot of people focus on the combat aspects and not the role playing aspect. Playing a hatchling dragon with a good GM can be challenging. with all that power the dragon can have a huge hubris but often forget things like, numbers can make a difference, or that sometimes there is a time for subtle. Sure a dragon can take down a patrol real easy and generally leaving clear signs it was a dragon who did the work. when the patrol doesn't return they will send out scouts and learn a dragon is in the land, now every two bit person who thinks they are a dragon slayer will be after the dragon, some will be useless others will be a challenge but they will be a problem to the dragons plans. having people and groups randomly show up to attack the dragon regardless of the other events going on can ware on even a dragon. The more the dragon kills the higher the reward until groups and creatures that can take down a dragon hatchling will take the call. if the reward is high enough people will buy magical equipment that takes away the dragons advantage and give them an edge.

It's also difficult to do business under these conditions. Even if the dragon says "I'll just use metaphor" after time people will wise up and it will cause issues like a changeling hunt. Towns may start issuing quarantine where people have to watched for a day before they are allowed to enter to make sure they aren't a dragon in disguise.

Agree completely- this is what makes it fun!

Well a dragons is very powerful for a Player characters in Pf,maybe if ther under a cruse locking away half ther MD,Hp,P.p.e and I.s.p. this way a dragon is force to wokr with others to find a end to the cruse.

I would only use Dragons as Npc.