Forums of the Megaverse®

Awhile ago me and my player group allowed multiple O.C.C.'s.. I don't remember where we got the rules from. I think they were from Robotech or Palladium Fantasy related. I don't like using them for rifts, but anyways, now I have a player thinking he can change his characters Demigod R.C.C.'s O.C.C. of Master Assassin to another different O.C.C. from another book. Would you allow it? And is it possible? The rules just say O.C.C.'s and not R.C.C.'s.

Thank you guys. I hope I didn't cause any confusion.

depends on how you look at it. an RCC is something you just inherently have, and generally shouldn't allow an OCC. but, at the same time, say demigod could potentially be one of those OCCs that got mislabeled as an RCC... although in my opinion it isn't.

so personally, i would say no. he can't stop being a demigod RCC, it's in his nature. he learns those abilities that he does because that's what his abilities are. he could no more stop learning that than he could stop learning how to keep his balance as his body changes or any more than he could stop learning how to interpret what his eyes are seeing.

in any case, he couldn't change a sub-portion of the RCC either way... *if* i was going to allow an OCC change, it would be the demigod OCC that would stop progressing, not the master assassin portion of his abilities. he doesn't actually have the assassin OCC, he has the demigod OCC/RCC, which includes having the abilities of another OCC in it, but he doesn't actually have that other OCC per se.

I was always under the impression that the Demi-God and Godlings were RCC's only and could not take an OCC.

Demi-Gods are special in that they can have an OOC as part of the RCC they are. That is what I think I remember

Dunia wrote:Demi-Gods are special in that they can have an OOC as part of the RCC they are. That is what I think I remember

That would be correct, as they are brought up as 'mere mortals' by their mortal parent (often without knowledge of their parentage) and learn an OCC suitable to their world (so a demi-god in a purely Ninjas and Superspies setting learns those OCC, whereas one born in a Heroes Unlimited setting develops one of those power categories instead). Godlings on the other hand seem to be considered as being raised by their godly parents and therefor learn what's seen as a default Godling OCC of skills rather than being raised where they'd learn a conventional OCC. However they should be able like anyone else to change and start learning a different OCC given suitable exposure and motivation.

pg 17 Pantheons
The demi-god can pick any occ that fits his human/dbee background

not to mention nearly every statistic of the R.C.C. says "as per chosen O.C.C."

now on the subject of the op...
multiple classes in rifts is generally not allowed.
this is one of those cases, though, where i'v had players ask...
"i live 4000 years and i can never learn another class? are you kidding?"

whatever works for you guys.

wonderdog wrote:pg 17 Pantheons
The demi-god can pick any occ that fits his human/dbee background

not to mention nearly every statistic of the R.C.C. says "as per chosen O.C.C."

now on the subject of the op...
multiple classes in rifts is generally not allowed.
this is one of those cases, though, where i'v had players ask...
"i live 4000 years and i can never learn another class? are you kidding?"

whatever works for you guys.

to which my response would be "get to be 4,000 years old and we'll talk about an upgrade".

lifespan potential has nothing to do with it.

AlexanderD wrote:I would say yes, the above comments are right on, the demigod is a race that can take an OCC, and if a human/elf/dwarf or any other race can have 2 occs, a demigod most certinly can as well. Looking at conversions2, in the god stats, most of them have multiple high level OCCS, and they are gods, but alot of them got where they are by good old adventuring. Heracles for example, started a demigod, though his adventures became higher level in his occs, and was granted godhood by his dad eventually.

At least a few gods have even been shown developing new OCC over the period after the Cataclysm happened, particularly the class of Techno-Wizard, so if a generally 'I've seen it all pretty much' god can find time to learn new OCC a driven demi-god or godling ought to be capable of it as well.

Nightmask wrote:

AlexanderD wrote:I would say yes, the above comments are right on, the demigod is a race that can take an OCC, and if a human/elf/dwarf or any other race can have 2 occs, a demigod most certinly can as well. Looking at conversions2, in the god stats, most of them have multiple high level OCCS, and they are gods, but alot of them got where they are by good old adventuring. Heracles for example, started a demigod, though his adventures became higher level in his occs, and was granted godhood by his dad eventually.

At least a few gods have even been shown developing new OCC over the period after the Cataclysm happened, particularly the class of Techno-Wizard, so if a generally 'I've seen it all pretty much' god can find time to learn new OCC a driven demi-god or godling ought to be capable of it as well.

and it sure as hell doesnt take 4000 years to do it. not 2000, not 1000, not 500.....
"nah sorry i cant learn how to be an operator i already learned how to cast these spells. its just not in my uber-deific intelligence to learn new things"
laffs

wonderdog wrote:

Nightmask wrote:At least a few gods have even been shown developing new OCC over the period after the Cataclysm happened, particularly the class of Techno-Wizard, so if a generally 'I've seen it all pretty much' god can find time to learn new OCC a driven demi-god or godling ought to be capable of it as well.

and it sure as hell doesnt take 4000 years to do it. not 2000, not 1000, not 500.....
"nah sorry i cant learn how to be an operator i already learned how to cast these spells. its just not in my uber-deific intelligence to learn new things"
laffs

just saying, potential life span isn't enough of an argument to learn a new OCC. actual time spent living, sure. but then, i also wouldn't allow anyone to pick up a new OCC without taking at least a year, probably more (depending on the new OCC), out of their life to just sit down and learn the new OCC.

as far as techno-wizardry being proof of a recent acquisition of a new OCC, all the talk about it being a new type of magic developed on rifts earth america as a recent thing is basically a great big pile of BS. maybe that's where it started *on rifts earth*, but i have my doubts of even that (most likely it was discovered by examining captured techno-wizardry devices)

true atlanteans use and are masters of it. the splugorth use and are masters of it. some primitive d-bee society in australia have figured it out. the xiticix use it instinctively. it's found in both north and south america, with no logical way for the people in north america to have taught the people in south america, meaning it's essentially something that is so obvious that multiple separate groups figured it out within a very short timeline. in the three galaxies, it is widely used, and is a key part of what the UWW use for their military.

any nonsense about techno-wizardry being a *recent* development, or the birthplace of it being in rifts earth north america, cannot be logically understood to be referring to the very first development of the technique in the entire megaverse. it is much too prevalent and widely distributed across the megaverse for it to have had it's beginnings on rifts earth in the post-apocalyptic period. about the best that might be claimed is that the techno-wizard culture with their love of aviation jackets and such started in rifts earth north america.

Shark_Force wrote:just saying, potential life span isn't enough of an argument to learn a new OCC. actual time spent living, sure. but then, i also wouldn't allow anyone to pick up a new OCC without taking at least a year, probably more (depending on the new OCC), out of their life to just sit down and learn the new OCC.

good stuff. adventures can even be planned to take place during the training time. intrigue can happen at universities, combat academies, etc. who knows? the pc might even save an instructor or two

magictiger wrote:Awhile ago me and my player group allowed multiple O.C.C.'s.. I don't remember where we got the rules from. I think they were from Robotech or Palladium Fantasy related. I don't like using them for rifts, but anyways, now I have a player thinking he can change his characters Demigod R.C.C.'s O.C.C. of Master Assassin to another different O.C.C. from another book. Would you allow it? And is it possible? The rules just say O.C.C.'s and not R.C.C.'s.

Thank you guys. I hope I didn't cause any confusion.

1) The only published PB canon rules from changing classes only apply to OCC's. They are found in the High Seas book. These rules are Pre-RUE, so only apply to OCC's that are not race restricted, and are not Psychic oriented. (i.e.: the ones that are really RCC's and PCC's.)

1.1) There are some Changing OCC's rules published in the RT(1) Macross book. However, they are as of the new RT(2) books non-canon. Even if you were just considering them just for RT.

1.2) There is the posted optional changing class rules in "The Cutting Room Floor" part of the PB site. Which allow for both RCC's and OCC's to change their classes.

2) DemiGods are mislabeled as an RCC. They should be listed as if a Race. Because they have to take an OCC to have a class. So there is no conflict with the changing class rules from changing their OCC to another OCC.


A quote about the why's PCC's cannot change their class.

BTS page 13 wrote:A character can not fit into more then one psychic character class (PCC). Each PCC is a direct result of a focus or channelling of PPE into a specific mental and emotional orientation. The nature of psychic energy and the intensity of focus does not allow for the combination of philosophies or powers. Thus, each character can be only one PCC. A PCC is far different from the usual OCC , It reflects the character;s psychic focus and special , psychic abilities and skills. The PCC is an orientation, a train of thought and direction.

Shark_Force wrote:

wonderdog wrote:

Nightmask wrote:At least a few gods have even been shown developing new OCC over the period after the Cataclysm happened, particularly the class of Techno-Wizard, so if a generally 'I've seen it all pretty much' god can find time to learn new OCC a driven demi-god or godling ought to be capable of it as well.

and it sure as hell doesnt take 4000 years to do it. not 2000, not 1000, not 500.....
"nah sorry i cant learn how to be an operator i already learned how to cast these spells. its just not in my uber-deific intelligence to learn new things"
laffs

just saying, potential life span isn't enough of an argument to learn a new OCC. actual time spent living, sure. but then, i also wouldn't allow anyone to pick up a new OCC without taking at least a year, probably more (depending on the new OCC), out of their life to just sit down and learn the new OCC.

as far as techno-wizardry being proof of a recent acquisition of a new OCC, all the talk about it being a new type of magic developed on rifts earth america as a recent thing is basically a great big pile of BS. maybe that's where it started *on rifts earth*, but i have my doubts of even that (most likely it was discovered by examining captured techno-wizardry devices)

true atlanteans use and are masters of it. the splugorth use and are masters of it. some primitive d-bee society in australia have figured it out. the xiticix use it instinctively. it's found in both north and south america, with no logical way for the people in north america to have taught the people in south america, meaning it's essentially something that is so obvious that multiple separate groups figured it out within a very short timeline. in the three galaxies, it is widely used, and is a key part of what the UWW use for their military.

any nonsense about techno-wizardry being a *recent* development, or the birthplace of it being in rifts earth north america, cannot be logically understood to be referring to the very first development of the technique in the entire megaverse. it is much too prevalent and widely distributed across the megaverse for it to have had it's beginnings on rifts earth in the post-apocalyptic period. about the best that might be claimed is that the techno-wizard culture with their love of aviation jackets and such started in rifts earth north america.

Except in the example I'm mentioning the gods are explicitly noted as having gained their interest in Techno-Wizardry and set about learning it because of having learned about it after Rifts Earth became an attractive nexus point for everyone. So whether or not Techno-wizardry exists anywhere else (and obviously it must as it exists in the Three Galaxies, although with the time rifts around it's not impossible that Techno-wizardly originated on Rifts Earth and time-traveling events have caused it to exist far longer in other places like the Three Galaxies) the gods learned about it only after the Cataclysm. I think Hermes took it up and courtesy of his godly PPE reserves created some advanced techno-weapons, like a hand-held rail gun.

So yes Rifts Earth can be the origin of Techno-Wizardly, even though it's existed far longer in other dimensions, and there are definitely gods (I don't think any gods listed with it have been implied to have learned it anywhere but Rifts Earth) written as having only learned about it from and on Rifts Earth and apparently not even aware of it until the coming of the Rifts.

Nightmask wrote:So yes Rifts Earth can be the origin of Techno-Wizardly, even though it's existed far longer in other dimensions, and there are definitely gods (I don't think any gods listed with it have been implied to have learned it anywhere but Rifts Earth) written as having only learned about it from and on Rifts Earth and apparently not even aware of it until the coming of the Rifts.

apparently those gods must have been incredibly ignorant of reality then, because the splugorth appear to have had techno-wizardry for quite some time. as have the true atlanteans.

more likely, people did not do the research and made absurd claims (or, actually, it's quite possible that pantheons was written first, and nobody bothered to acknowledge that they were going completely counter to their claims going back to the original rule book when material was later written which basically made it abundantly obvious that rifts earth north america could not plausibly be the birthplace of techno-wizardry).

and it still doesn't change the fact that having the *potential* to live a long time has absolutely *nothing* to do with your ability to have another OCC *right now*.

live through those years and earn the new OCC, maybe. but it's not like elves are born with 3 OCCs just because they live longer than humans, nor is it like immortals automatically gain every OCC in the books at birth just because they have the *potential* to live indefinitely. *potential* lifespan is beside the point. it has no bearing on how much you know right now, merely on how much you could learn over the course of your life.

so i still wouldn't care if someone argued that a demigod *could* live for 4,000 years. i'm not going to hand out bonus OCCs for future lifespan, i'll deal with it the same way i deal with anyone else getting multiple OCCs: did they earn it yet?

Shark_Force wrote:and it still doesn't change the fact that having the *potential* to live a long time has absolutely *nothing* to do with your ability to have another OCC *right now*.

live through those years and earn the new OCC, maybe. but it's not like elves are born with 3 OCCs just because they live longer than humans, nor is it like immortals automatically gain every OCC in the books at birth just because they have the *potential* to live indefinitely. *potential* lifespan is beside the point. it has no bearing on how much you know right now, merely on how much you could learn over the course of your life.

so i still wouldn't care if someone argued that a demigod *could* live for 4,000 years. i'm not going to hand out bonus OCCs for future lifespan, i'll deal with it the same way i deal with anyone else getting multiple OCCs: did they earn it yet?

and i agreed with this. i didnt see anyone arguing against it. not sure why you felt so adamently to reiterate something that the person you presented the argument to agreed with.
but it kind of skirts the issue. all i was really saying is telling a demi-god they can only have 1 O.C.C. in the entire of their 4000 years of existence because the rules say so is absurd.

i'll say it again so we're clear.
i agree it shouldnt be just handed out simply based on life span.
i agree it should be earned.
i agree time should be spent playing the O.C.C. they originally selected before selecting another one.

wonderdog wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:and it still doesn't change the fact that having the *potential* to live a long time has absolutely *nothing* to do with your ability to have another OCC *right now*.

live through those years and earn the new OCC, maybe. but it's not like elves are born with 3 OCCs just because they live longer than humans, nor is it like immortals automatically gain every OCC in the books at birth just because they have the *potential* to live indefinitely. *potential* lifespan is beside the point. it has no bearing on how much you know right now, merely on how much you could learn over the course of your life.

so i still wouldn't care if someone argued that a demigod *could* live for 4,000 years. i'm not going to hand out bonus OCCs for future lifespan, i'll deal with it the same way i deal with anyone else getting multiple OCCs: did they earn it yet?

and i agreed with this. i didnt see anyone arguing against it. not sure why you felt so adamently to reiterate something that the person you presented the argument to agreed with.
but it kind of skirts the issue. all i was really saying is telling a demi-god they can only have 1 O.C.C. in the entire of their 4000 years of existence because the rules say so is absurd.

i'll say it again so we're clear.
i agree it shouldnt be just handed out simply based on life span.
i agree it should be earned.
i agree time should be spent playing the O.C.C. they originally selected before selecting another one.

Definitely if you were going to apply the rules for multiple OCC it'd be in a situation like this, as it's definitely I agree absurd that in centuries or millenia of life that every demi-god or godling would stay in the same field for their entire existence. Some would have to end up bored or be too curious or what have you to stick with the one and would after getting what they felt was everything that they could out of it simply move on to something else. A demi-god of knowledge for example is very likely to have such insatiable curiosity that he could end up switching OCC over his lifetime to learn something he simply can't learn in his current field.

Shark_Force wrote:

Nightmask wrote:So yes Rifts Earth can be the origin of Techno-Wizardly, even though it's existed far longer in other dimensions, and there are definitely gods (I don't think any gods listed with it have been implied to have learned it anywhere but Rifts Earth) written as having only learned about it from and on Rifts Earth and apparently not even aware of it until the coming of the Rifts.

apparently those gods must have been incredibly ignorant of reality then, because the splugorth appear to have had techno-wizardry for quite some time. as have the true atlanteans.

While I don't remember the game stats on one so far as I'm aware they don't have Techno-Wizardly, they have bio-Wizardry and Rune Magic and advanced conventional technology not techno-wizardly. From what I've seen of them Splugorth are all about the biological and reshaping life or otherwise using it in some fashion; rather than doing things with techno-wizardly they do it via bio-wizardry instead. Haven't seen anything that's implied Techno-Wizardry is a very long-term thing for Atlanteans predating the Cataclysm either.

Also it's quite inaccurate to try and mock the gods as ignorant morons because it somehow should be known by everyone that Techno-Wizardry exists because that's simply not so. Even gods of knowledge and travel don't know everything and the Splugorth for all their raiding have no knowledge of many things that exist in the Multiverse. Plenty of entities simply aren't aware of such things or only learned of them recently as gods measure time.

- the standard, *mass-produced* kydian armor (across the megaverse) is a techno-wizardry armor.

- the splugorth are known to sell techno-wizardry weapons to the gargoyles in europe.

- if you open the rifts book of magic, the splugorth have an entire section of TW gear dedicated to them. i think we can safely say that the splugorth both have and use techno-wizardry extensively. probably more than anyone else. and remember, the splugorth are known across the megaverse as traders and merchants.

- the altara warrior women's standard-issue armor of ithan medallion is noted as being advanced techno-wizardry.

- the nexus knights of england are also noted as having techno-wizardry weapons.

- the south american city of manoa, a true atlantean city which has no regular contact with north america, makes extensive use of techno-wizardry, including power armors and such

- there are a few armors from the incan empire that are specifically noted as being techno-wizardry in the book of magic.

- the people in japan, completely isolated from america, also have techno-wizardry weapons and equipment. and a specialised techno-wizard OCC as i recall.

- the mokoloi in australia have developed their own form of techno-wizardry. they have no contact with north america, and are in fact a very primitive society.

- the nuhr use techno-wizardry devices also. including a talisman of armor that works just like the splugorth one that the blind warrior women all carry.

- the naut'yll, who are noted as being particularly insular if i'm not mistaken, have techno-wizardry weapons.

now if all these various groups, several of which are noted as being more advanced than north american techno-wizards, including a number of groups with relatively few resources, have techno-wizardry... well, quite frankly, techno-wizardry being only a couple of centuries old (at most) and having reached all of these people just *doesn't make sense*. not to mention all the stuff that isn't in the rifts book of magic but is still out there... it wouldn't surprise me to discover techno-wizard stuff in china, and i know the UWW uses it extensively as well.

much more plausible explanations include that the basic principles behind techno-wizardry are blindingly obvious to the point where even primitive cultures can figure it out (and for that matter, the xiticic have also figured it out instinctively), or that there is some other source that has spread the knowledge across the entire megaverse.

and imo the most plausible explanation is that it is, in fact, both of the above. the atlanteans in legend are known to have had crystal-based technology. what does that remind you of? because to me, it sounds an awful lot like techno-wizardry. in all likelihood, they weren't the first or only people to use it in their time either. they might have learned it from someone else. regardless, over time many different people have gained the knowledge of techno-wizardry, likely because it is so wide-spread and because merchants like the splugorth have sold it across the megaverse (and also sold techno-wizards themselves). at the same time, it is likely that people discover (or rather, re-discover) techno-wizardry for themselves, although not at the same proficiency as those who have truly mastered the techniques over centuries.

in any event, i would say that techno-wizardry probably goes back at *least* as far as ancient atlantis, and quite probably more in some form or another (after all, if barely-intelligent bugs can stumble across it without any inborn magical capabilities apart from the xiticix queen's techno-wizardry capabilities, it can't be *that* difficult to figure out).

Shark_Force wrote:- the standard, *mass-produced* kydian armor (across the megaverse) is a techno-wizardry armor.

Which you've nothing to support it wasn't developed AFTER Rifts Earth discovered TW and spread that knowledge elsewhere.

Shark_Force wrote:- the splugorth are known to sell techno-wizardry weapons to the gargoyles in europe.

Which proves nothing, selling just means you got it from someone who could make it or learned how to make it from them.

Shark_Force wrote:- if you open the rifts book of magic, the splugorth have an entire section of TW gear dedicated to them. i think we can safely say that the splugorth both have and use techno-wizardry extensively. probably more than anyone else. and remember, the splugorth are known across the megaverse as traders and merchants.

They've a big selection of Bio-wizardry items that get lumped in with Techo-wizardry. Also just because they sell TW items does not mean that they've always known about TW or been able to engage in it, just as an arms merchant doesn't have to know anything about building the weapons he's selling. It also doesn't mean that they couldn't have learned it in the centuries after the Cataclysm like many others did.

Shark_Force wrote:- the altara warrior women's standard-issue armor of ithan medallion is noted as being advanced techno-wizardry.

Again, not proof that the Splugorth have known about Techno-wizardry anywhere near as long as you claim, and I haven't seen where there's any valid claim to those amulets being TW in nature, let alone of an advanced nature.

Shark_Force wrote:- the nexus knights of england are also noted as having techno-wizardry weapons.

Again what exactly has that got to do with supporting a claim that the Splugorth or anyone else has known about TW long before the coming of the Rifts or that it didn't originate on Rifts Earth? Just because you've got something doesn't mean anything about you being able to build it. That Arthur analog has a Psi-weapon from before the coming of the Rifts, doesn't mean he or anyone else can make them or has a clue to how to do it.

Shark_Force wrote:- the south american city of manoa, a true atlantean city which has no regular contact with north america, makes extensive use of techno-wizardry, including power armors and such

Rifts Japan, zero contact with North America, the Techno-Ninjas independently developed Techno-Wizardry while attempting to develop new ways to deal with their rivals the mystic ninja. Also lack of regular contact does not mean zero contact at all, only takes one Techno-Wizard to teach it to the locals and 'seed' the area with the knowledge.

Shark_Force wrote:- there are a few armors from the incan empire that are specifically noted as being techno-wizardry in the book of magic.

Another case of 'so what's that supposed to prove?'; doesn't prove anything about the origins of Techno-wizardry.

Shark_Force wrote:- the people in japan, completely isolated from america, also have techno-wizardry weapons and equipment. and a specialised techno-wizard OCC as i recall.

Yes, they independently developed it, as I previously noted. They didn't have it taught to them by some D-bee whose people knew about Techno-wizardry or otherwise do anything but originate it purely by their own efforts.

Shark_Force wrote:- the mokoloi in australia have developed their own form of techno-wizardry. they have no contact with north america, and are in fact a very primitive society.

I've no access to that book but again, them having it doesn't support the idea that TW originated somewhere else and was simply taught to humanity after the Rifts came, humanity developed it on its own and is credited with originating it.

Shark_Force wrote:- the nuhr use techno-wizardry devices also. including a talisman of armor that works just like the splugorth one that the blind warrior women all carry.

Do they build them themselves? Have they ever encountered the Splugorth? Maybe they copied it after having seen it in action, or acquiring one for study.

Shark_Force wrote:now if all these various groups, several of which are noted as being more advanced than north american techno-wizards, including a number of groups with relatively few resources, have techno-wizardry... well, quite frankly, techno-wizardry being only a couple of centuries old (at most) and having reached all of these people just *doesn't make sense*. not to mention all the stuff that isn't in the rifts book of magic but is still out there... it wouldn't surprise me to discover techno-wizard stuff in china, and i know the UWW uses it extensively as well.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Rifts Earth is one of the biggest nexus locations in the multiverse currently, with Rifts shifting people about across space and time at every second of every day on the planet. Also going by the common fallacy that people believe that in societies reduced to such primitive levels that no one ever travels anywhere when in fact even in our more primitive days you had people who traveled hundreds or even thousands of miles (like the Vikings). It would make LESS sense that nothing spread anywhere under such conditions.

Shark_Force wrote:much more plausible explanations include that the basic principles behind techno-wizardry are blindingly obvious to the point where even primitive cultures can figure it out (and for that matter, the xiticic have also figured it out instinctively), or that there is some other source that has spread the knowledge across the entire megaverse.

That's not a more plausible explanation, that's merely trying to justify an unfounded conclusion based on your having a problem with the idea that *gasp* humanity actually figured out something no one else had. Apparently because 'gee humans are just too stupid and primitive to have figured that out it must have existed elsewhere and someone just showed it to them'. Sorry but that's not a valid foundation for a conclusion.

Shark_Force wrote:and imo the most plausible explanation is that it is, in fact, both of the above. the atlanteans in legend are known to have had crystal-based technology. what does that remind you of? because to me, it sounds an awful lot like techno-wizardry. in all likelihood, they weren't the first or only people to use it in their time either. they might have learned it from someone else. regardless, over time many different people have gained the knowledge of techno-wizardry, likely because it is so wide-spread and because merchants like the splugorth have sold it across the megaverse (and also sold techno-wizards themselves). at the same time, it is likely that people discover (or rather, re-discover) techno-wizardry for themselves, although not at the same proficiency as those who have truly mastered the techniques over centuries.

Yeah, sorry, but 'sounds like' doesn't mean 'it is'. A lot of things might seem familiar or have a common nature but be completely unrelated when looked at more closely. You're also ignoring that Atlanteans have Stone Magic, a magic unrelated to Techno-Wizardry that also makes use of crystals, so not surprising that they've a purely magical, non-TW use of crystals. Crystals are often associated with magic use, nothing so shocking about the idea of Techno-Wizardry developing to make use of them like many other sorts of magic have. Diabolists require crystals for some of their magicks to function, does that make them TW too? Of course not.

Shark_Force wrote:in any event, i would say that techno-wizardry probably goes back at *least* as far as ancient atlantis, and quite probably more in some form or another (after all, if barely-intelligent bugs can stumble across it without any inborn magical capabilities apart from the xiticix queen's techno-wizardry capabilities, it can't be *that* difficult to figure out).

A very unsubstantiated conclusion, including the level of intelligence of the Xiticix and how the items that they create in being considered TW items implies that your dog or cat could become a TW. Especially when you right there credit at least one variety of the insect with the ability to create these items that get called TW items even when they don't resemble normal TW items. An instinctive ability to do something doesn't equate to something being easy, there are a lot of instinctive predators with phenomenal combat ability that doesn't mean combat is so easy a toddler can learn it. You're tossing out a lot of material that's highly subjective or without foundation as if it were fact when it's far from it.

ah. so in other words, your opinion is that for thousands, nay, millions of years, nobody thought up techno-wizardry or could use it, notwithstanding many of them are in fact absolutely brilliant (humans don't have to be stupid for other races to be smarter, you know) and also use both technology and magic. and then suddenly, right after techno-wizardry is discovered on rifts earth, several other cultures spontaneously also develop those techniques from scratch, but somehow this form of magic is also not so blatantly obvious a path that nobody else could figure it out for millions of years, including the other humans that have been around for much of that time.

and that half of the stuff that is listed as techno-wizardry in nature is not, in fact, techno-wizardry. including the xiticix weapons which function exactly like techno-wizardry in every way, the splugorth items which function exactly like techno-wizardry in every way, etc.

seriously, while it is theoretically possible that this sort of thing *could* happen, it's so absurdly improbable that it doesn't pass the sniff test.

to go from nobody having techno-wizardry to suddenly multiple different civilisations all developing it spontaneously within a short period of time and spreading it across the entire megaverse is just so absurdly implausible as to be unworthy of consideration.

possible? theoretically. but so improbable that i'd need a lot better than some vague theories about how it happened, when none of those other examples of techno-wizardry have any indication that they followed from the north american techno-wizardry tradition in them, and in several cases the likelihood of having gained the knowledge from the north american techno-wizardry tradition is so absurdly unlikely individually (never mind collectively) as to be laughable.

and on a side note, stone magic as a crystal-based technology is moronic. it's not technology, a miniscule handful of people know it which makes it an incredibly unlikely thing for anyone to pick up on as being the main form of technology of a culture, and if it couldn't be used to make pyramids the few people who do know it would be the laughing stock of the entire magic community for choosing a form of magic that is impractical, expensive, inflexible, and has no significant bonuses over other forms of magic. frankly, there is a very good reason why only a tiny handful of people know stone magic.

Shark_Force wrote:ah. so in other words, your opinion is that for thousands, nay, millions of years, nobody thought up techno-wizardry or could use it, notwithstanding many of them are in fact absolutely brilliant (humans don't have to be stupid for other races to be smarter, you know) and also use both technology and magic. and then suddenly, right after techno-wizardry is discovered on rifts earth, several other cultures spontaneously also develop those techniques from scratch, but somehow this form of magic is also not so blatantly obvious a path that nobody else could figure it out for millions of years, including the other humans that have been around for much of that time.

Meanwhile in your opinion everything ought to be known by everyone because with so many around everything should have been discovered and learned by everyone without exception and nothing can exist as something that requires just the right circumstances (high technology world falling to massive magical cataclysm) in order for people to discover. Sorry but your opinion is most certainly not blatantly obvious and just because so many humans are around doesn't mean that they are certain to have the same experiences and breakthroughs in order to discover a particular new idea. Having your Da Vinci born a thousand years too early and without those principles to spark his mind around and he's not going to discover anything. You need a level of advanced technology and magical awareness to have reason to think 'I wonder if I can combine these?' or go 'Eureka! I know how to blend magic and technology into an entirely new field!'.

Shark_Force wrote:and that half of the stuff that is listed as techno-wizardry in nature is not, in fact, techno-wizardry. including the xiticix weapons which function exactly like techno-wizardry in every way, the splugorth items which function exactly like techno-wizardry in every way, etc.

Gizmoteer items get referred to as Techno-Wizardry even though there's nothing remotely magical about them, magical weapons from Heroes Unlimited get classed as Rune weapons even though they share almost nothing in common to what's thought of as a Rune weapon in Rifts, just because it's called a Techno-Wizard item doesn't mean it's a product of traditional Techno-Wizardry. Particularly with the likes of the Splugorth who're masters of Rune magic and BIO-Wizardry, rather than TECHNO-Wizardry.

Shark_Force wrote:seriously, while it is theoretically possible that this sort of thing *could* happen, it's so absurdly improbable that it doesn't pass the sniff test.

I guess my nose must work better than yours then, as your reasoning has it as so easy a discovery it's like the wheel and even people that don't have technology can be techno-wizards. Reasoning that must be applicable to everything so therefor everyone should know Rune Magic, Fleshsculpting, Mirror Magic, etc. Clearly everyone doesn't know these things which should by your reasoning be just as well known by everyone, because not everything is so easy to discover as you're claiming.

Shark_Force wrote:to go from nobody having techno-wizardry to suddenly multiple different civilisations all developing it spontaneously within a short period of time and spreading it across the entire megaverse is just so absurdly implausible as to be unworthy of consideration.

Sorry but you don't get to decide the worthiness of things, especially on such a flimsy argument as 'I find it unlikely so it must not be so'. Your finding it unlikely has no bearing at all on the plausibility of something, lots of things people insist just aren't possible (like the Moon Landing) and point to all sorts of 'I find that part there as highly unlikely' as their 'proof', which isn't proof of anything.

Shark_Force wrote:possible? theoretically. but so improbable that i'd need a lot better than some vague theories about how it happened, when none of those other examples of techno-wizardry have any indication that they followed from the north american techno-wizardry tradition in them, and in several cases the likelihood of having gained the knowledge from the north american techno-wizardry tradition is so absurdly unlikely individually (never mind collectively) as to be laughable.

More laughable to insist that just because those things lumped as techno-wizardry actually are rather than it being used as a catch-all category just as 'Rune Weapon' is used as a catch-all for powerful magical artifacts even though there are at least three different distinct classes of artifacts (Heroes Unlimited, Nightbane, Rifts/Palladium Fantasy) that display little in common. Just because something's called a Rune Weapon even though it doesn't fit the listed abilities common to those created by Runesmith's doesn't mean it was created by a Runesmith, and just because something's called a Techno-Wizard item doesn't mean it was created by someone who was a Techno-Wizard or using principles common to their particular OCC.

Shark_Force wrote:and on a side note, stone magic as a crystal-based technology is moronic. it's not technology, a miniscule handful of people know it which makes it an incredibly unlikely thing for anyone to pick up on as being the main form of technology of a culture, and if it couldn't be used to make pyramids the few people who do know it would be the laughing stock of the entire magic community for choosing a form of magic that is impractical, expensive, inflexible, and has no significant bonuses over other forms of magic. frankly, there is a very good reason why only a tiny handful of people know stone magic.

Shouldn't be calling people morons, violation of the TOS you ought to know. Especially when you're wrong. Stone Magic is a technology, and amazing how you insist that 'Oh no THIS magic is just too special and precious for anyone else to have discovered it in all the centuries since it was discovered, even though these others know it too' but insist 'Oh no Techno-Wizardly is just so obvious an idea everyone ought to be able to discover Techno-Wizardry even when they have no technology at all'.

You're also laughably off base about Stone Magic, which is capable of doing quite a bit more than just make magical pyramids and given it makes use of gems like Techno-Wizards do hardly overly expensive since the TW manages to get by finding gems enough for it to be a very valued technology. Might want to reexamine the Stone Master, they also derive various super-powers from gemstones in their possession, making them quite flexible especially if they've got a wide range of stones handy. So the Stone Master is quite versatile, at least as much if not moreso than a number of other spellcasting classes. The Diabolist and Summoner for example are far more impractical and inflexible and only good if you've got room to plan ahead yet certainly not extinct because 'gee it's just not worth it' by any means. Same goes with the Nazcan Line Maker, a magical technology that one would think fairly useless given its requirements yet an empire runs on it. Just because something's not in your face obvious doesn't mean it's not the main form of technology. Massive amounts of our society's technology is fairly hidden or unnoticed and yet without it we'd be still living in caves.

Nightmask wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

wonderdog wrote:

Nightmask wrote:At least a few gods have even been shown developing new OCC over the period after the Cataclysm happened, particularly the class of Techno-Wizard, so if a generally 'I've seen it all pretty much' god can find time to learn new OCC a driven demi-god or godling ought to be capable of it as well.

and it sure as hell doesnt take 4000 years to do it. not 2000, not 1000, not 500.....
"nah sorry i cant learn how to be an operator i already learned how to cast these spells. its just not in my uber-deific intelligence to learn new things"
laffs

just saying, potential life span isn't enough of an argument to learn a new OCC. actual time spent living, sure. but then, i also wouldn't allow anyone to pick up a new OCC without taking at least a year, probably more (depending on the new OCC), out of their life to just sit down and learn the new OCC.

as far as techno-wizardry being proof of a recent acquisition of a new OCC, all the talk about it being a new type of magic developed on rifts earth america as a recent thing is basically a great big pile of BS. maybe that's where it started *on rifts earth*, but i have my doubts of even that (most likely it was discovered by examining captured techno-wizardry devices)

true atlanteans use and are masters of it. the splugorth use and are masters of it. some primitive d-bee society in australia have figured it out. the xiticix use it instinctively. it's found in both north and south america, with no logical way for the people in north america to have taught the people in south america, meaning it's essentially something that is so obvious that multiple separate groups figured it out within a very short timeline. in the three galaxies, it is widely used, and is a key part of what the UWW use for their military.

any nonsense about techno-wizardry being a *recent* development, or the birthplace of it being in rifts earth north america, cannot be logically understood to be referring to the very first development of the technique in the entire megaverse. it is much too prevalent and widely distributed across the megaverse for it to have had it's beginnings on rifts earth in the post-apocalyptic period. about the best that might be claimed is that the techno-wizard culture with their love of aviation jackets and such started in rifts earth north america.

Except in the example I'm mentioning the gods are explicitly noted as having gained their interest in Techno-Wizardry and set about learning it because of having learned about it after Rifts Earth became an attractive nexus point for everyone. So whether or not Techno-wizardry exists anywhere else (and obviously it must as it exists in the Three Galaxies, although with the time rifts around it's not impossible that Techno-wizardly originated on Rifts Earth and time-traveling events have caused it to exist far longer in other places like the Three Galaxies) the gods learned about it only after the Cataclysm. I think Hermes took it up and courtesy of his godly PPE reserves created some advanced techno-weapons, like a hand-held rail gun.

So yes Rifts Earth can be the origin of Techno-Wizardly, even though it's existed far longer in other dimensions, and there are definitely gods (I don't think any gods listed with it have been implied to have learned it anywhere but Rifts Earth) written as having only learned about it from and on Rifts Earth and apparently not even aware of it until the coming of the Rifts.

By that logic TW could have also originated in the Three Galaxies and been seeded on earth by someone transported via random rift.

Galroth wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Except in the example I'm mentioning the gods are explicitly noted as having gained their interest in Techno-Wizardry and set about learning it because of having learned about it after Rifts Earth became an attractive nexus point for everyone. So whether or not Techno-wizardry exists anywhere else (and obviously it must as it exists in the Three Galaxies, although with the time rifts around it's not impossible that Techno-wizardly originated on Rifts Earth and time-traveling events have caused it to exist far longer in other places like the Three Galaxies) the gods learned about it only after the Cataclysm. I think Hermes took it up and courtesy of his godly PPE reserves created some advanced techno-weapons, like a hand-held rail gun.

So yes Rifts Earth can be the origin of Techno-Wizardly, even though it's existed far longer in other dimensions, and there are definitely gods (I don't think any gods listed with it have been implied to have learned it anywhere but Rifts Earth) written as having only learned about it from and on Rifts Earth and apparently not even aware of it until the coming of the Rifts.

By that logic TW could have also originated in the Three Galaxies and been seeded on earth by someone transported via random rift.

Given the books state that Techno-Wizardry originated on Rifts Earth then no, the reciprocal argument is invalid. Examples of it shown elsewhere would have to be seeded from Earth, and also examples of continuity errors where a writer simply used the class or the idea someplace where it would contradict the origin stated for Techno-Wizardry. There is after all a lot of material for Rifts and someone erring by 'oh we have to have some new Techno-Wizard items to go along with the conventional technology' and including such even though it means the tech predates the discovery date or origin of the Techno-Wizard class.

Mind you Techno-Wizards are not the only OCC that create technology that combines magic and technology, it's only the most well known class that does so in Rifts. The Cybermancers (I think that's the OCC's name) from the Nightbane setting also combine magic and technology in the form of gruesome meldings of flesh and technology. They can create what can be classed as Techno-Wizard items even though they aren't a Techno-Wizard class, even crafting techno-magic cybernetics for implantation into others (without any stated impediment of one's PPE, presumably because they're specialists at melding flesh and technology).

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Except in the example I'm mentioning the gods are explicitly noted as having gained their interest in Techno-Wizardry and set about learning it because of having learned about it after Rifts Earth became an attractive nexus point for everyone. So whether or not Techno-wizardry exists anywhere else (and obviously it must as it exists in the Three Galaxies, although with the time rifts around it's not impossible that Techno-wizardly originated on Rifts Earth and time-traveling events have caused it to exist far longer in other places like the Three Galaxies) the gods learned about it only after the Cataclysm. I think Hermes took it up and courtesy of his godly PPE reserves created some advanced techno-weapons, like a hand-held rail gun.

So yes Rifts Earth can be the origin of Techno-Wizardly, even though it's existed far longer in other dimensions, and there are definitely gods (I don't think any gods listed with it have been implied to have learned it anywhere but Rifts Earth) written as having only learned about it from and on Rifts Earth and apparently not even aware of it until the coming of the Rifts.

By that logic TW could have also originated in the Three Galaxies and been seeded on earth by someone transported via random rift.

Given the books state that Techno-Wizardry originated on Rifts Earth then no, the reciprocal argument is invalid. Examples of it shown elsewhere would have to be seeded from Earth, and also examples of continuity errors where a writer simply used the class or the idea someplace where it would contradict the origin stated for Techno-Wizardry. There is after all a lot of material for Rifts and someone erring by 'oh we have to have some new Techno-Wizard items to go along with the conventional technology' and including such even though it means the tech predates the discovery date or origin of the Techno-Wizard class.

Mind you Techno-Wizards are not the only OCC that create technology that combines magic and technology, it's only the most well known class that does so in Rifts. The Cybermancers (I think that's the OCC's name) from the Nightbane setting also combine magic and technology in the form of gruesome meldings of flesh and technology. They can create what can be classed as Techno-Wizard items even though they aren't a Techno-Wizard class, even crafting techno-magic cybernetics for implantation into others (without any stated impediment of one's PPE, presumably because they're specialists at melding flesh and technology).

The only mention I can find of Techno-wizardry being invented in North America is in the section being written from the point of view of Erin Tarn. That section shouldn't be taken as gospel since she isn't being written as being omniscient.

If you have a contradictory quote that isn't from one of the fluff sections written by her, I'd like to know.

Galroth wrote:The only mention I can find of Techno-wizardry being invented in North America is in the section being written from the point of view of Erin Tarn. That section shouldn't be taken as gospel since she isn't being written as being omniscient.

If you have a contradictory quote that isn't from one of the fluff sections written by her, I'd like to know.

Any quotes from anywhere that contradict that quote? Which btw given the Pantheons Of The Megaverse has multiple entries of gods only learning about Techno-Wizardry because it showed up on Rifts Earth supports the contention that the Techno-Wizard OCC originates on Rifts Earth, otherwise these gods wouldn't be going 'wow that's new!' and so eager to learn it they'd already know it. If multiverse-traveling gods hadn't heard about it until being drawn to Rifts Earth odds are it originated there, just as the Dakar currently hold exclusive knowledge of Inertia-beam technology, the Intruders solid energy technology, the Vellox their 'hurt anything no matter what it's immunities to energy' weapons, and so on.

Everything has to start somewhere, and it's a bit ridiculous to insist that it's impossible the people on Rifts Earth could have discovered a single magic no one else had while simultaneously insisting that all these other races must be the only ones who know or can figure out the technology that they've got. The only ones with some claim to that so far are the Prometheans as their unusual relation to space-time is essential for creating phase tech, making it a racial ability that so far no one's independently developed. As it stands the material supports the idea of the Techno-Wizard OCC originating on Rifts Earth and ending up seeded elsewhere due to the many rift events that occur every second of every day. While there may be other OCC that can create items that can be classed as Techno-Wizard items that doesn't mean that they are Techno-Wizard OCC but instead simply a class that can create items that fit that heading. You need to divorce the class Techno-Wizard from the category Techno-Wizard devices. A Psi-Tech can build a robot, so can an Operator, that doesn't make them the same because they can build the same or similar item.

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:The only mention I can find of Techno-wizardry being invented in North America is in the section being written from the point of view of Erin Tarn. That section shouldn't be taken as gospel since she isn't being written as being omniscient.

If you have a contradictory quote that isn't from one of the fluff sections written by her, I'd like to know.

Any quotes from anywhere that contradict that quote? Which btw given the Pantheons Of The Megaverse has multiple entries of gods only learning about Techno-Wizardry because it showed up on Rifts Earth supports the contention that the Techno-Wizard OCC originates on Rifts Earth, otherwise these gods wouldn't be going 'wow that's new!' and so eager to learn it they'd already know it. If multiverse-traveling gods hadn't heard about it until being drawn to Rifts Earth odds are it originated there, just as the Dakar currently hold exclusive knowledge of Inertia-beam technology, the Intruders solid energy technology, the Vellox their 'hurt anything no matter what it's immunities to energy' weapons, and so on.

Everything has to start somewhere, and it's a bit ridiculous to insist that it's impossible the people on Rifts Earth could have discovered a single magic no one else had while simultaneously insisting that all these other races must be the only ones who know or can figure out the technology that they've got. The only ones with some claim to that so far are the Prometheans as their unusual relation to space-time is essential for creating phase tech, making it a racial ability that so far no one's independently developed. As it stands the material supports the idea of the Techno-Wizard OCC originating on Rifts Earth and ending up seeded elsewhere due to the many rift events that occur every second of every day. While there may be other OCC that can create items that can be classed as Techno-Wizard items that doesn't mean that they are Techno-Wizard OCC but instead simply a class that can create items that fit that heading. You need to divorce the class Techno-Wizard from the category Techno-Wizard devices. A Psi-Tech can build a robot, so can an Operator, that doesn't make them the same because they can build the same or similar item.

Only Mummu the Maker's entry mentions him learning about Techno-wizardry on Rifts Earth, because it is still 'rare' in the Megaverse, not because it originated there. I'm not saying it couldn't have originated on Rifts Earth, I'm just saying Rifts Earth isn't the only possible birthplace of Techno-wizardry.


Edit: Page 84 of Phase World. The Warlocks have had Techno-wizardry (Palladium's words not mine) since they met the Star Elven Empire thousands of years ago. Now one of three things could have happened. TW was invented by humans in the dark ages of Rifts earth and was seeded into the deep past through a rift. TW was invented in the Three Galaxies and was seeded to rifts earth through a rift. Or it was invented more than once in multiple locations.

My personal vote is for option 3.

sooooo...a thread about multiple o.c.c.'s has degraded into an argument about the origins of techno-wizardry?
im all for the argument. shoulda probably started a separate thread for it, but whateva.

Failgoat wrote:sooooo...a thread about multiple o.c.c.'s has degraded into an argument about the origins of techno-wizardry?
im all for the argument. shoulda probably started a separate thread for it, but whateva.

Well you know how it goes, things kind of snowball and you don't even realize you've gone off on an unrelated tangent until someone else points it out.

@ nightmask: the stone wizard's "special powers" are nothing more than the exact same spells everyone else gets. except that they don't get the full list, including a number of the best spells. and they have to destroy gemstones worth thousands of credits every time they want to cast anything. stone magic sucks royally. if anyone discovered it and didn't start by saying "hey, i can make a dimensional beacon for travelers that as a side benefit keeps ley line storms from happening", nobody else would be interested in hearing about it. the spell selection is cripplingly small, the power of most of those spells is a joke, and it costs thousands of credits to cast the ones that don't suck. stone magic is probably rare because when someone comes up to you and says "hey look, i can cast the exact same spell as a regular ley line walker, except that i have to destroy *diamonds* to do it.", people probably smack you upside the head and tell you to study regular magic which requires only PPE.

as far as mirror magic, well, given it's based on the mirrorwall, i think it's pretty safe to say that it bloody well *should* be insanely rare and essentially unique to the nightbane dimension, because that's about the only place that has a mirrorwall at all. also, it is severely lacking in power and versatility compared to regular spell magic. you may not have noticed, but other than mirror magic they get about half of a column of spells that they can choose. that's it. if you took the regular spell list of only level 1 and 2 spells, it would be longer than the entire list of what mirror magic gets.

as far as fleshsculpting, it's probably rare because of the requirements: IQ 14+, ME and MA 9+, and must be a minor psychic or better. and they are very limited in their spell selection, though at least not as limited as mirror mages (but you're screwed if you want to, say, remove the stone wall that's in your path, or fight a robot vehicle). and in fact, they're noted as being rare in the nightbane setting, but also as having been re-discovered recently by the people there, as the reason for the rareness.

rune magic isn't widely known because the people who know it tend to be brutally murdered by the splugorth. a very high probability of being hunted down and killed by interdimensional traders who have minions numbering into the billions is a pretty big discouragement. also the fact that to practice your craft and make something useful for yourself, you have to capture a powerful being that could otherwise have been your ally and trap it's soul inside an inanimate object for eternity.

these other forms of magic have a logical reason to be rare. they are very specialised, in one case limited to one dimension (that being a dimension where magical knowledge is rare in the first place), and while they have their uses are not on the whole as versatile or even as powerful as regular incantation magic.

techno-wizardry is none of those things. it's arguably even more powerful than regular magic because it allows others to use it, takes 1 action to activate regardless of spell level, and your spell knowledge can be combined into new effects providing a drastic increase in versatility. the drawbacks of spells that are difficult to cast can be reduced or removed (including long casting time, high PPE requirements, limited range or area, etc). and in the meanwhile, you can still use regular incantation magic on top of that.

techno-wizardry, unlike most of the rare magics, is an extremely desirable form of magic to know.

Shark_Force wrote:@ nightmask: the stone wizard's "special powers" are nothing more than the exact same spells everyone else gets. except that they don't get the full list, including a number of the best spells. and they have to destroy gemstones worth thousands of credits every time they want to cast anything. stone magic sucks royally. if anyone discovered it and didn't start by saying "hey, i can make a dimensional beacon for travelers that as a side benefit keeps ley line storms from happening", nobody else would be interested in hearing about it. the spell selection is cripplingly small, the power of most of those spells is a joke, and it costs thousands of credits to cast the ones that don't suck. stone magic is probably rare because when someone comes up to you and says "hey look, i can cast the exact same spell as a regular ley line walker, except that i have to destroy *diamonds* to do it.", people probably smack you upside the head and tell you to study regular magic which requires only PPE.

Uh no, that's not the case of the powers Stone Masters get at all, and what exactly do you think a TW has to do but effectively destroy a gem by tying it up as part of a device? I don't know where you're getting that extremely poor opinion of Stone Magic but it's definitely at odds with the actual power available to the OCC.

Shark_Force wrote:as far as mirror magic, well, given it's based on the mirrorwall, i think it's pretty safe to say that it bloody well *should* be insanely rare and essentially unique to the nightbane dimension, because that's about the only place that has a mirrorwall at all. also, it is severely lacking in power and versatility compared to regular spell magic. you may not have noticed, but other than mirror magic they get about half of a column of spells that they can choose. that's it. if you took the regular spell list of only level 1 and 2 spells, it would be longer than the entire list of what mirror magic gets.

You really need to reread the material on the Mirror Wall and Mirror Masters, as the Mirrorwall is noted as bordering ALL dimensions and one can get to any dimension and world from inside the Mirrorwall if they know what they're doing. Yes they're limited in spell availability but that makes them a quantum leap up from a non-powered character. A well-trained espionage PC isn't going to compete well with someone who can use Mirror Magic to get into places otherwise impossible and spy on any situation where a mirror exists.

Shark_Force wrote:as far as fleshsculpting, it's probably rare because of the requirements: IQ 14+, ME and MA 9+, and must be a minor psychic or better. and they are very limited in their spell selection, though at least not as limited as mirror mages (but you're screwed if you want to, say, remove the stone wall that's in your path, or fight a robot vehicle). and in fact, they're noted as being rare in the nightbane setting, but also as having been re-discovered recently by the people there, as the reason for the rareness.

Really going all out to downplay the power of these various spell-casting classes, particularly since stone walls and robot vehicles are a problem for just about everyone but the range of damaging and healing spells available to the Fleshsculpter makes them formidable opponents.

Shark_Force wrote:rune magic isn't widely known because the people who know it tend to be brutally murdered by the splugorth. a very high probability of being hunted down and killed by interdimensional traders who have minions numbering into the billions is a pretty big discouragement. also the fact that to practice your craft and make something useful for yourself, you have to capture a powerful being that could otherwise have been your ally and trap it's soul inside an inanimate object for eternity.

these other forms of magic have a logical reason to be rare. they are very specialised, in one case limited to one dimension (that being a dimension where magical knowledge is rare in the first place), and while they have their uses are not on the whole as versatile or even as powerful as regular incantation magic.

techno-wizardry is none of those things. it's arguably even more powerful than regular magic because it allows others to use it, takes 1 action to activate regardless of spell level, and your spell knowledge can be combined into new effects providing a drastic increase in versatility. the drawbacks of spells that are difficult to cast can be reduced or removed (including long casting time, high PPE requirements, limited range or area, etc). and in the meanwhile, you can still use regular incantation magic on top of that.

techno-wizardry, unlike most of the rare magics, is an extremely desirable form of magic to know.

Techno-Wizardly is also limited, you have to build it into an external device if you try and just cast one of those spells it's slashed in half for its effectiveness across the board. Their magics are bound by the same restrictions any conventional technology has with regards to usefulness, and there are many mages around with some ability to create purely magical weapons and devices nothing special about the Techno-Wizard in that regard.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizardly is also limited, you have to build it into an external device if you try and just cast one of those spells it's slashed in half for its effectiveness across the board. Their magics are bound by the same restrictions any conventional technology has with regards to usefulness, and there are many mages around with some ability to create purely magical weapons and devices nothing special about the Techno-Wizard in that regard.

Actually according to the R:UE you can now just channel a spell through an appropriate device (like using your laser rifle or other projectile weapon for casting Fire Bolt).

no, stone magic really does suck. they get barely any spells, and most of them are junk. and the stone master literally *destroys* the gem. with a techno-wizard, you could salvage the gem when you're done with the device, and you can even just keep using the device in the vast majority of cases. but hey, feel free to present something that you feel makes the stone mage particularly worthwhile other than building pyramids. i'm curious to see what makes you think it isn't a terrible, terrible OCC.

the mirror wall may extend to all dimensions in the sense that you can get to any dimension through it, but then, you can get to any dimension without going through the mirror wall as well. only one dimension is actually surrounded by it, with the rest it's barely even there at all, and then pretty much only if you're trying to travel to the one dimension where it *is* a major factor. as far as superior espionage? i'm not sure how you can persuade yourself of that fact. the sheer volume of useful espionage spells a regular incantation user gets is much greater. mirror mages don't even get invisibility. i guess maybe if your espionage is trying to break into the local carnival's hall of mirrors, they're pretty awesome. otherwise, nothing special.

flesh sculptors? well, they're really good at what they do. but while a normal incantation user might have a hard time dealing with a stone wall or a robot vehicle, they can in fact deal with those problems using magic. a flesh sculptor can only deal with things that are made out of flesh. this is a fairly self-evident drawback to me, but i guess in your world stone walls are actually just made out of flesh, somehow. i'm not saying they're weak, i'm saying they're EXTREMELY specialized. a standard caster is more versatile simply because they're not so specialized, they can affect any sort of material with many of their spells (for example, they can deal with a stone wall by fireballing it if it's SDC, dispel magic barrier if it's a magical MDC wall, mystic portal if it's a regular stone wall with MDC or simply too much SDC to trivially blast through, etc).

techno-wizardry at least can be used, even if at half range (not effectiveness across the board; a magic net still works just as well, it just won't reach as far, last as long, or be quite as tough, but it's the same dodge roll to avoid it and it incapacitates people exactly the same if they fail to avoid it). furthermore, they can cast at full strength provided they have an appropriate technological focus (a gun for damaging spells, goggles for spells that let you see, a flashlight for light spells, etc, and it can just be a regular item, no special preparation needed). in many cases, this can be fairly easily improvised. and in any case, half-use of a spell (even though in many cases it's more than half) is massively better than absolutely no use ever. a techno-wizard might have a weaker fire ball or mystic portal if they can't find a convenient technological focus, but they still have a fire ball or mystic portal at all.

i'd much rather be stuck with a reduced spell than no spell (and again, with a proper focus there is not even a reduction).

Back to the original discussion...
I have often wondered about the game mechanic of putting an OCC and an RCC together for game-canon items. Such as the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy. Totally permitted by the book. But two different XP charts, skill sets, etc. So how would that work in terms of game mechanics?

wyrmraker wrote:Back to the original discussion...
I have often wondered about the game mechanic of putting an OCC and an RCC together for game-canon items. Such as the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy. Totally permitted by the book. But two different XP charts, skill sets, etc. So how would that work in terms of game mechanics?

Ditch the racial skills and use the more expensive xp chart.
About the Techno-Wizardry being invented in North America thing... The TW Fire-Breathing Arqubus is a Pre-Rifts TW device invented by the Ninja. It obviously contradicts Erin Tarn's opinion.
I think Erin Tarn is just of the mindset that "Americans are awesome" so she deducted that Techno-Wizardry had to have been invented there because they are the only ones in the Megaverse capable of such a feat.

I often wonder why so many people are against characters learning new skills outside their original character class when the ability to do so is written about in many of the books. In PFRPG (Old Ones stands out in my mind), Rifts Mercenary Adventures and in one of the Phase World books there training courses that add skills by taking training courses. In Heroes Unlimited characters can continue learning skills (usually by attending college courses). All it takes is time and money. I don't remember specifically where but there is an article about party members mentoring each other as well.

Special O.C.C. abilities probably remain unique to specific to their O.C.C. in which case a character can change an O.C.C. a limited number of times according to PFRPG rules.

Of course special things like psionics, the ability to channel magic energy, and super powers are not something learned in a college (well magic can be).

enhancer wrote:.
It seems that Palladium was trying to make another item like the others that went magical after the Great Cataclysm like the "Ten-Thousand-Strength" Nunchakus and the Ghostly Katana of Soul Slaying, and didn't pay too much attention to what they were writing.

*chuckles* this is something that I've noticed over the years that none of the writers do any research into what the previous books had to say on the subject that they are writing about. [And in a very recent book (RBM) did not even look at a dictionary to make sure what they said was correct. ]

So it is all very confusing when someone comes along to try to make seance of it all.

magictiger wrote:Awhile ago me and my player group allowed multiple O.C.C.'s.. I don't remember where we got the rules from. I think they were from Robotech or Palladium Fantasy related.

I don't have the older Robotech books so I'm not sure about that one.

The Palladium RPG did have dual/multiple OCC rules, but they were left out of PF 2nd Ed. They can be found on the cutting room floor: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... index.html under Errata for Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition:
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html

Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.

A bunch of related questions to multiple OCCs can also be found here: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ombat.html

3. Why can't you have multiple OCC's with Psychic character classes?
Answer: The psychic characters powers are very specific and natural powers. They cannot suddenly just develop a new set of natural powers.

6. If a Character changes OCCs, does that character retain his/her original OCC's abilities?
Answer: Yes, they retain their classes original abilities but they are frozen.

7. If a Character changes from one Men Of Magic OCC to another, how do you determine the power of his/her spells?
Answer: If the spell can be used by either OCC, use the higher level of the two.

26. How many times can you change an OCC? When you change how many skills do you get and from what OCC skills, related or secondary.?
Answer: Treat multiple O.C.C.s in Rifts as you would in Palladium. Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current P.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as soon as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level). When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C. Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new P.P.E., S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. all new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C. Characters who change to a new O.C.C. will get all of the O.C.C. skills and special abilities, but only HALF the number of O.C.C. related and secondary skills. When powers/skills are duplicated, they get whichever is the better of the two, they do NOT add them together. For special powers and abilities that specific O.C.C.s may possess, adjust where necessary. At the GM's discretion, characters may continue to change O.C.C.s repeatedly as long as they pay the experience points for their apprenticeships.

29. What is the rule for characters wanting to change OCC's, or once they have changed, going back to the original OCC. Also we had a RCC (Sea Titan), that wanted to change to another OCC, so our ruling was that a "Sea Titan" was a man at arms OCC, so he could change to a new man at arms OCC by freezing his current level and starting at level 1 in his new OCC, experience needed for new OCC would be the standard required. If he wanted to change to an OCC outside of "man at arms" then it would take twice as many experience points for each level. What is your opinion on this ruling?
Answer: A character returning to its original OCC would have to undergo a refresher period equal to its 1st level of experience to get back to its original level of its former OCC. It seems like a fair ruling.

53. Can a Achilles Neo-Human R.C.C. have an O.C.C.? If so which ones can I chose from? Do I get both the RCC and OCC skills? Would I use the RCC exp. table or the OCC exp. table?
Answer: Yes they can elect to take a O.C.C. at a later level. Use the rules for changing O.C.C. (tall their powers and abilities from the Neo-Human are frozen).

102. Can one dual-OCC into a PCC? It seems to me that one cannot just "become" a psychic by Dual classing...
Answer: You cannot.

And here: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ccpcc.html

26. If a Demi-god had the powers of a necromancer, but the OCC of a Ley Line walker, would he/she suffer the doubled PPE cost for using non-necromagic spells? Also, if that same necromancer/demigod chose the OCC of necromancer would he have any special bonuses for already having the powers of a necromancer?
Answer: The Line Walker OCC would not suffer the doubled PPE cost for using non-necromantic spells. The Necromancer OCC would get bonuses (such as spell strength and/or decreased PPE cost, etc.) based on their level. The GM should assign whatever they feel is appropriate. Normally when casting spells if the character has multiple O.C.C.'s, use the highest level which is appropriate for the spell being cast or ability being used.

68. Can a Psychic RCC from rifts choose to adopt a Non-Psychic OCC at higher levels? Like, lets say a Psi-Tech becoming an Operator to better his grasp of the mechanical skills.
Answer: They can change OCC's but cannot select a R.C.C.

94. In Psyscape, the prolog story for the Harvester, there is a CS Mind Melter with SF training. Does this mean that a Mind Melter, when first created can use the SF O.C.C., or does he/she start with the R.C.C. skills of a Mind Melter and gets the O.C.C. related and secondary skills of the SF O.C.C.?
Answer: That NPC can be considered a special case (like all NPC's), or a Mind Melter may elect to switch occ's (freezing their advancement as a Mind Melter) and change to another OCC.

Hope this helps. I personally don't like the one about having to gain level 1 XP as a refresher, but I guess it encourages sticking with something you might come back to. I think we also need an FAQ about what level a player has to be in an OCC before they're able to instruct people in how to switch to that OCC. Presumably a level 1 or 2 Techno-Wizard isn't experienced enough to train new ones... but I dunno.

magictiger wrote:I don't like using them for rifts, but anyways, now I have a player thinking he can change his characters Demigod R.C.C.'s O.C.C. of Master Assassin to another different O.C.C. from another book. Would you allow it? And is it possible? The rules just say O.C.C.'s and not R.C.C.'s. Thank you guys. I hope I didn't cause any confusion.

It's possible, and sure, would allow it. The demigod is selecting a new OCC, not a new RCC, after all.

There are cases where I'd let people switch to non-OCCs like PCCs or RCCs too. Like the PCCs in Mystic China for example are basically magic classes, which usually get labelled as OCCs. Or if a player somehow gets imbued with Godling powers (like what happened to Lord Coake's friend) letting them switch to the Godling RCC and it's skills should be okay. Though that does sorta demand an abnormal situation. I'm wracking my mind to think of an RCC you should be able to just "train to be" but nothing comes to mind...

Though it does say the CS is somehow able to train psychics to become Nullifiers even if they might not have been otherwise. Not sure how that works.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards are not the only OCC that create technology that combines magic and technology, it's only the most well known class that does so in Rifts. The Cybermancers (I think that's the OCC's name) from the Nightbane setting also combine magic and technology in the form of gruesome meldings of flesh and technology.

Cybermage, close

Isn't the 'Cybermancer' that guy mentioned in who King Gilgamesh found to make himself immortal via sacrificing and absorbing the soul/body of clones? Maybe that guy was a Biomancer, Cybermage and Necromancer amongst other things?

To use the example of Nightbane, they're an RCC but they can select OCCs which are unique to Nightbane. I don't think it explicitly says they can't select other ones but it's sort of implied, I dunno.

A more correct way to say it is that Nightbane is a race with RCC's that they can take.
-------------
A Race is what you are. An RCC is a class restricted to a certain race.

What confuse the issue is that there are races restricted to a singe RCC; and that PB has (since the RMB) labeled races and PCC's as RCC's. (and since RUE they list PCC's as OCC's.)

[*waves hand dismissively at those neh-sayers as if to say"I've heard your arguments before, you need not try to change the immovable object"* Is only saying what IS without any filter of style which the books are written with.]

Once a long long time ago in a first edition far far away. There were seperate classes for things. And each thing was what it was some were races that could choose to be things for that was the style of the game, and others were races that could just be what they were for that too was the style. And then many decades did pass, and lo the rules they were an acretion from many authors who did various levels of research. And terms were used poorly, and other terms were found to be not as absolute as they were once. And it was found that soon the line between when is a race a race and when is an rcc and rcc of if they are or are not was fuzzy and thread bare.

The point of this is that USUALLY an RCC is when a race can only take one skill package....but of course that isnt always used like that which creates mass confusion. Like Drew said, in theory you should have a 'race' and an 'class' and sometimes the only 'class' certain races can take is one that is specific to that race (this creates the rcc) but sometimes its fuzzy if that should be the ONLY class for said race.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:A more correct way to say it is that Nightbane is a race with RCC's that they can take.

No, it isn't. 'Nightbane' is an RCC. 'Nightbane Sorcerer' is an OCC. That's how they're labelled.