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How can you add the most possible attacks per melee (by the book legal) to any single class ?

Dear God. Last time someone challenged Nekira like this she got to some 2,000 attacks per round, though I'm not sure that was purely by the book.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:Dear God. Last time someone challenged Nekira like this she got to some 2,000 attacks per round, though I'm not sure that was purely by the book.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:Dear God. Last time someone challenged Nekira like this she got to some 2,000 attacks per round, though I'm not sure that was purely by the book.

/Sub

Are you serious ... 2,000 ATTACKS !!

What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can run ?

What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can fly ?

Lenwen wrote:What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can run ?

What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can fly ?

You should get the Heroes Unlimited module/Game Setting.

In there is a Mega(?) Power called Sonic Speed, which allows you to run at speeds of Mach 1 or even faster!
(I believe that they call the flying version of that Sonic Flight, and one can get similar speeds if not even greater.)

Lots of good Powers in that system that are compatible with other settings like Rifts Earth!

(Note that there are certain limitations, mainly regarding Powers from that setting and combining them with abilities/OCCs/RCCs in Rifts, deliberately put in place to maintain some semblance of Game Balance.)

Lenwen wrote:What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can run ?

What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can fly ?

As far as running speed, don't know.

Flight speed? I think Cosmo Knights have the top speed. Mach 15 (11,418mph ) at level 15 in atmosphere, and faster than light in the void.

Lenwen wrote:What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can run ?

What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can fly ?

running M15 (see sonic speed)

flying
in space c x15 (See cosmo knight)
in air M15 (see sonic flight)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Lenwen wrote:What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can run ?

What is thee FASTEST .. by physical abilities / magic .. anyone can fly ?

running M15 (see sonic speed)

flying
in space c x15 (See cosmo knight)
in air M15 (see sonic flight)

And those are natural ?

Which means they could be doubled a couple times threw magic right ?

Those are @ L15 and w/o any magic or psi or other hero powers added into the mix.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Those are @ L15 and w/o any magic or psi or other hero powers added into the mix.

Which means the running speed will be able to be upped incredibly more then the flight speed by magic . I think I will do some checking out hehe

Ty Drew.

Well, with the robot building rules in SB1, you can get a humanoid running speed of 220, or animal body running speed of 423. Short of superpowers, I am not sure I have seen anything that tops those speeds running.

As for attacks, not sure how someone would get 2000 attacks per the RAW, but would love to see how they got that.

Ok so I went threw a couple books an came up with this for best overall run speed.

Start with a Superhuman from Hero's setting.. Sonic speed 700 mph. ( i did not include the +mph per lvl as I could not find it)

700 MPH (base)
+50% ----------- Magic Adrenal Rush.
------
1050 MPH.
x2 --------- Greater Fetish : Speed. (Book of magic)
------
2100 MPH.
x2 ----------- Spell : Fleet Feet. ( Palladium Fantasy)
------
4200 MPH.
x2 ----------- Spinetwister
------
8400 MPH.
x2------------ Muscle Boot x2 ( Splynn world book)
------
16,800 MPH.
x2 ----------- Spell : Featherlight. ( Book of Magic)
------
33,600 MPH

Or .. Mach 48.

I think this is right.

Now .. to tackle the flight speed .. hehe

Lenwen wrote:Now .. to tackle the flight speed .. hehe

You have to have to show how fast at what altitude, because Mach speed is different at different altitudes.

Lenwen wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Dear God. Last time someone challenged Nekira like this she got to some 2,000 attacks per round, though I'm not sure that was purely by the book.

/Sub

Are you serious ... 2,000 ATTACKS !!

Something ridiculous like that. It involved chain casting spells and a few other things. I think the flaw in it was that she was doubling previously doubled numbers rather than doubling the base and then adding them.

When you double attacks, and then double them again, you're just supposed to re-add the base...and I think she was redoubling.

So, if spells A, B, C, and D double your attacks, and you start with 5, then after casting the four in a row you'd end with 25 attacks, not 80.

I'm also not sure if when one adds attacks if they are added before you double or after. So if spell X adds two attacks, ability Y adds four, and magic item Z adds another two, and then you cast spells A, B, C, and D that double them, I don't know if you take the original 5 attacks, add the additional 8, and THEN start the doubling (which would lead to you having 208 attacks per round), or if you perform the multiplication and then add the bonus attacks (which would lead to you having 33).

/Sub

I believe doubling is predicated upon the base speed and not that which was previously doubled...so it's really additive and not a doubler.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:I think the flaw in it was that she was doubling previously doubled numbers rather than doubling the base and then adding them.

How is that a flaw ? Is it a rule in any of the core books that state only double the base number rather then doubling the number overall as it is stated to do ?

You have made me curious where you got that idea that a double is not a true double but rather an addition of only the base.

In my games .. when it states its doubled .. that is exactly what it is .. its doubled ..

for instance ..

NPC has 5 attacks .. he then uses a spell to double his attacks .. (he now has 10 attacks) and then uses another spell to enchant his weapon which doubles his attacks yet again (after that first spell which had him at 10 attacks, the second spell now doubles his 10 attacks to a total of 20 attacks ) using that 1 weapon.

This is how it is supposed to be its a doubling effect .. an they stack unless otherwise stated .. or perhaps a core book dictates that is not how it is done. But I've never seen in any palladium core book anything that would dispute that logic of "Doubling"

Could you point me straight to something that could settle it ?

I don't have my books handy anymore. Most of my collection (i.e. hundreds and hundreds of books) are in California and I've not been able to get them back yet. I believe the way it's supposed to work is that you double the base and do not double it after additions or other doubling has taken place. I'm far less of a rules guy and more of a fluff guy though, so I'm the wrong guy to ask. I'm there for the story and the feel of the game.

*shrug*

It's part of what draws me to Palladium products. The art and story draws me in.

/Sub

i'm not aware of any specific rules text clarifying how you go about stacking spells in palladium rules. honestly, i doubt kevin thought to include them. he probably assumed everyone would look at the results of one interpretation (which already allows for an awful lot of attacks in 15 seconds), and then compare them to the other (which allows an absurd amount of attacks in 15 seconds) and then go with the interpretation that keeps things reasonable.

Ok so then people want to say its not a "true" doubling .. but mearly an addition .. And no one can cite anything which backs the adding .. rather then the natural text of spells which clearly say double ..

I guess then in all debates about this topic then according to canon .. its a double .. an not just an addition that is upheld.

Thank you guys for your imput .

sure, the spell says double. but it doesn't say to double any other bonuses. if it's doubling your speed, well, your speed is your base speed, not your base speed modified by other spells. if it's doubling your attacks, well, your attacks are your base attacks, not your base attacks modified by other spells. those other attacks are bonus attacks that come from the spell, not from you.

but no, there's no explicit statement either way.

Shark_Force wrote:sure, the spell says double. but it doesn't say to double any other bonuses. if it's doubling your speed, well, your speed is your base speed, not your base speed modified by other spells.

That is wrong. Double is double .. it does not even state double only your base speed. It says double your speed. enhanced or not.

Shark_Force wrote:but no, there's no explicit statement either way.

Wrong. In the spells description is all you need to look at. It clearly states .. doubles your speed.

Nothing else matters. House rules or not my friend.

Lenwen wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:sure, the spell says double. but it doesn't say to double any other bonuses. if it's doubling your speed, well, your speed is your base speed, not your base speed modified by other spells.

That is wrong. Double is double .. it does not even state double only your base speed. It says double your speed. enhanced or not.

Shark_Force wrote:but no, there's no explicit statement either way.

Wrong. In the spells description is all you need to look at. It clearly states .. doubles your speed.

Nothing else matters. House rules or not my friend.

not so.

you have a speed. it is written on your character sheet. that is your speed. that is the number that you should be working from. because that number is your speed. double that number is not your speed, it's how fast you go when under the influence of a certain spell.

Shark_Force wrote:you have a speed. it is written on your character sheet. that is your speed. that is the number that you should be working from. because that number is your speed. double that number is not your speed, it's how fast you go when under the influence of a certain spell.

When you use certain spells to double your speed ..

Can you tell me if said spells say .. double your "base" speed .. or if it just states .. doubles your speed ?

You are trying to insinuate .. a home rule .. as a canon refrenced rule in which case you with all due respect my friend is wrong.

If the spell's and or abilities said double only base speed .. I would be in complete agreement or heck if there was a core book rule in any setting that could back your home rule I would gladly say you are right.

But I can not in good judgement say you are right .. even when the spells an abilities say exactly the opposite of your belief.

Lenwen wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:you have a speed. it is written on your character sheet. that is your speed. that is the number that you should be working from. because that number is your speed. double that number is not your speed, it's how fast you go when under the influence of a certain spell.

When you use certain spells to double your speed ..

Can you tell me if said spells say .. double your "base" speed .. or if it just states .. doubles your speed ?

You are trying to insinuate .. a home rule .. as a canon refrenced rule in which case you with all due respect my friend is wrong.

If the spell's and or abilities said double only base speed .. I would be in complete agreement or heck if there was a core book rule in any setting that could back your home rule I would gladly say you are right.

But I can not in good judgement say you are right .. even when the spells an abilities say exactly the opposite of your belief.

you only have a base speed. that base speed can be modified, but the modified speed isn't yours, any more than riding in a vehicle increases your speed. yes, you're moving faster. no, your speed didn't increase.

Shark_Force wrote:you only have a base speed. that base speed can be modified, but the modified speed isn't yours, any more than riding in a vehicle increases your speed. yes, you're moving faster. no, your speed didn't increase.

Hate to say the same thing over ..

But show me 1 spell that doubles speed .. that states .. doubles your "Base" speed only.

I will ceed the point .. once you can do this. Otherwise .. you are trying to push a home rule off as canon ..

Which is wrong.

Lenwen wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:you only have a base speed. that base speed can be modified, but the modified speed isn't yours, any more than riding in a vehicle increases your speed. yes, you're moving faster. no, your speed didn't increase.

Hate to say the same thing over ..

But show me 1 spell that doubles speed .. that states .. doubles your "Base" speed only.

I will ceed the point .. once you can do this. Otherwise .. you are trying to push a home rule off as canon ..

Which is wrong.

show the rule that says it does, which you're attempting to claim is the only official way to read it. as i read it, *you* don't have a speed of what the spell gives you, that's just how fast the spell moves you. your speed is written down right on your character sheet, and casting the spell doesn't change that stat, it merely changes how fast you are able to move.

Shark_Force wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:you only have a base speed. that base speed can be modified, but the modified speed isn't yours, any more than riding in a vehicle increases your speed. yes, you're moving faster. no, your speed didn't increase.

Hate to say the same thing over ..

But show me 1 spell that doubles speed .. that states .. doubles your "Base" speed only.

I will ceed the point .. once you can do this. Otherwise .. you are trying to push a home rule off as canon ..

Which is wrong.

show the rule that says it does, which you're attempting to claim is the only official way to read it. as i read it, *you* don't have a speed of what the spell gives you, that's just how fast the spell moves you. your speed is written down right on your character sheet, and casting the spell doesn't change that stat, it merely changes how fast you are able to move.

That is understandable. But its a house rule.

You can read the spells descriptions .. and add what you want to the spells description. But I read it as it is written. And that is how it is written not "your stat" it is your speed an when your speed is doubled .. Its doubled .. not Plus what ever to your stat .. but your running / flying speed.

And another thing that breaks your whole side of the arguement ..

Beings with out the capability of flight .. have no flight speed period. Yet they are granted the ability of flight threw spells .. an other such spells can double that ..

Your arguement breaks down in that very aspect.

meh. i can see i'm going nowhere with trying to explain this to you. i'm done. someone else can try to explain simple logic to lenwen if they want, i'm through trying to argue with mr "my interpretation of the rules is the only possible way to read them".

Shark_Force wrote:meh. i can see i'm going nowhere with trying to explain this to you. i'm done. someone else can try to explain simple logic to lenwen if they want, i'm through trying to argue with mr "my interpretation of the rules is the only possible way to read them".

You read more into something that clearly does not say what you want it to say.

I read the spells as they are written .. not adding anything.

You say it does not double .. I say according to the spells words .. verbatium .. They do .

You have not shown anything tho I've asked multiple times for verification of your house rule according to the books .. and I'd ceed the point to you.

You are trying to use a House rule .. as a canon rule on a question about canon sourced answers. There in lies the folly of your logic.

shark force, lanwen is correct in my opinion, you are reading the spell as if it says "you move as if you're speed was doubled", instead it says "double your speed", you have a speed, that speed was doubled, therefore if you double your speed again you double your new speed, not your base speed. If you raise a stat then that stat is raised until the duration of the effect expires.
private int X = 10;
X = X*2;
System.out.println(X);
X = X*2;
System.out.println(X);
if you run that little bit of code you get 20 and 40, not 20 and 30.

BIBBI wrote:shark force, lanwen is correct in my opinion, you are reading the spell as if it says "you move as if you're speed was doubled", instead it says "double your speed", you have a speed, that speed was doubled, therefore if you double your speed again you double your new speed, not your base speed. If you raise a stat then that stat is raised until the duration of the effect expires.
private int X = 10;
X = X*2;
System.out.println(X);
X = X*2;
System.out.println(X);
if you run that little bit of code you get 20 and 40, not 20 and 30.

well, yeah. but that code isn't the computer trying to understand the game. that code is nothing more than you telling the computer to double a number, then double the result of that. you are claiming that your speed stat is a variable. i am declaring it as constant and using a variable to store the added speed. my argument is that the speed you move at can be changed by spells and such, the speed attribute is only changed if it is a permanent change.

there isn't really any proof either way, but one way leads to absolutely ridiculous nonsensical numbers if abused and reasonable numbers if not abused, while the other way leads to reasonable numbers if not abused and only slightly more ridiculous numbers if abused.

i wouldn't be surprised if the continuous doubling the way you and lenwen want to interpret the rules could lead to someone traveling at relativistic velocities (and i don't mean using FTL travel in space) which should simply incinerate you (and superheat the air you're passing through) because of the friction followed shortly by your corpse slamming into something at relativistic velocities and causing climate to change and putting a huge crater where you landed. and if the friction doesn't burn you because you're immune to fire/heat, it will probably crush you instead.

so you can go ahead and use the interpretation of the rules that turns a person into a relativistic projectile weapon if you'd like. i'll stick to my interpretation, where people can *still* go very fast, but not at velocities best measured as fractions of c.

Shark, I agree that many of the spells are ripe for abuse (and this isn't limited to just speed related spells). However, in the absence of text/rules that says otherwise we're forced to take the simplest explanation.

This is why Rifts requires GM's to have a firm and steady hand, and to decide what's best for their own game.

WildWalker wrote:

Mack wrote:<snip> Rifts requires GM's to have a firm and steady hand, and to decide what's best for their own game.

This.

Feature, not flaw.

Agreed, undoubtedly.

Mack wrote:Shark, I agree that many of the spells are ripe for abuse (and this isn't limited to just speed related spells). However, in the absence of text/rules that says otherwise we're forced to take the simplest explanation.

This is why Rifts requires GM's to have a firm and steady hand, and to decide what's best for their own game.

*shrug* neither is particularly complex. and in fact, if you were to express it mathematically, my interpretation (addition) would be "simpler" than the other interpretation (multiplication). each interpretation can appear "simpler" because of how it's presented to you; present it a different way, and the answer to which is "simpler" changes.

so which is really simpler? how do you even define what makes it simpler?

i'll agree that a rifts GM needs to be more involved in deciding what sort of rules are best for their game as compared to most RPGs (at least, most RPGs that are being produced today). but that just means we both could be right within the context of our own game (which is always true, and does not require saying in any case except where someone else is insisting that you play the game their way or you're doing it wrong), not that the way i interpret the rules is wrong.

Ive seen both debates in the past. In the end, I follow Shark's logic. I see it as doubling the speed on your character sheet each time. If my speed is 10, spell one doubles that speed for 20, or 10 more. Spell two also doubles that speed to 20, or 10 more. Combine those with the original stat and its 30.

The easier, or more munchkin, route is to just keep doubling the modified speed attribute...but Ive found that leads to abuse in games I've GM'd, which is why I do it this way. I do this for "double damage" stacks too.

Just my 2 cents,

I would handle multiple doubling of attributes, MDC/SDC, etc. the same way Criticals are handled. Rather that doubling each time, you use the largest multiplier as a base (usually the x2, but on occasion x3 or higher) and increase the multiplier by one for each additional 'doubling' of the attribute.

So, as an example, rather than Base Speed x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 = Total Speed, I would have it Base Speed x6 (x2 plus 4 for the extra doubles) = Total Speed.

But that's me.

Might as well point this out again.

Additive bonuses stack. Multipliers are based on the base stat before any other additive or multiplicative bonuses. You could think of it as +100% of your base stat instead of doubling.

Don't believe me? Take a look at Book of Magic, page 22, second question on the left column. It explains spell stacking for strength pretty clearly, and if it's good for one attribute, it should be good for all of them unless otherwise stated.

I would guess a Rifts Source/Reference book would be cannon. Does that mean that Lenwen will cede the point?

Really, if you want to run it the other way, there's nothing wrong with that as long as the enemies have the same kinds of tricks up their sleeves. If I ever play a mage, I'm going to try my hardest to speed buff an enemy off a cliff, just for comedic value. That or speed them up, sidestep, and stick a foot out.

Smooth Operator wrote:Might as well point this out again.

Additive bonuses stack. Multipliers are based on the base stat before any other additive or multiplicative bonuses. You could think of it as +100% of your base stat instead of doubling.

Don't believe me? Take a look at Book of Magic, page 22, second question on the left column. It explains spell stacking for strength pretty clearly, and if it's good for one attribute, it should be good for all of them unless otherwise stated.

There is the flaw of your an everyone elses arguement ..

"if it's good for one attribute, it should be good for all of them unless otherwise stated"

Well, they do call them rule books, not exception books.

Smooth Operator wrote:Well, they do call them rule books, not exception books.

Well said.

But in the absence of one rule governing all ..

You can not just put another rule in place .. of one that is not specific to its own subject matter .

There in lies where that side of the debate breaks down ..

Smooth Operator wrote:Might as well point this out again.

Additive bonuses stack. Multipliers are based on the base stat before any other additive or multiplicative bonuses. You could think of it as +100% of your base stat instead of doubling.

Don't believe me? Take a look at Book of Magic, page 22, second question on the left column. It explains spell stacking for strength pretty clearly, and if it's good for one attribute, it should be good for all of them unless otherwise stated.

I would guess a Rifts Source/Reference book would be cannon. Does that mean that Lenwen will cede the point?

Really, if you want to run it the other way, there's nothing wrong with that as long as the enemies have the same kinds of tricks up their sleeves. If I ever play a mage, I'm going to try my hardest to speed buff an enemy off a cliff, just for comedic value. That or speed them up, sidestep, and stick a foot out.

Good find, Smooth Operator.

Pretty much settles the issue.

It's good to see that you have a sense of humor, Lenwen.

I would assert that the explanation for strength would set a precident. Note that a precident can be used for similar cases. Since there was no formal rule on stacking attribute bonuses for spells and BoM outlined stacking for strength type spells, one could view it as a precident.

All in all, either form of stacking is fairly easy to counter. Speed of the snail reduces pretty much all combat bonuses "to one third of their normal ability".

Now, here's a question I'd like an answer to. Do the rules state what happens if you cast the same spell on yourself twice? Does it refresh the duration or stack with itself? I haven't found anything, but I haven't looked very hard either. I just automatically assumed that wouldn't work.

Also, what exactly would you be casting to double attributes more than once?

Smooth Operator wrote:It's good to see that you have a sense of humor, Lenwen.

I would assert that the explanation for strength would set a precident. Note that a precident can be used for similar cases. Since there was no formal rule on stacking attribute bonuses for spells and BoM outlined stacking for strength type spells, one could view it as a precident.

All in all, either form of stacking is fairly easy to counter. Speed of the snail reduces pretty much all combat bonuses "to one third of their normal ability".

Now, here's a question I'd like an answer to. Do the rules state what happens if you cast the same spell on yourself twice? Does it refresh the duration or stack with itself? I haven't found anything, but I haven't looked very hard either. I just automatically assumed that wouldn't work.

Also, what exactly would you be casting to double attributes more than once?

Ah .. I like the way you think hehe .

Smooth Operator wrote:Additive bonuses stack. Multipliers are based on the base stat before any other additive or multiplicative bonuses. You could think of it as +100% of your base stat instead of doubling.

Don't believe me? Take a look at Book of Magic, page 22, second question on the left column. It explains spell stacking for strength pretty clearly, and if it's good for one attribute, it should be good for all of them unless otherwise stated.

Yeah, pretty clear. Good find. Ive been doing it wrong (at least ever since BoM came out). So now, the question is, since multiplied bonuses dont stack, which spell is actively multiplied between the two? The last one cast? Does the second negate the first? Or is it that both spells would run concurrently with one another, with both spells providing double strength? (example, spell 1 doubles strength from 10 to 20 for 5 minutes, spell 2 doubles strength from 10 to 20 for 10 minutes. When spell 1 runs out, spell 2 is still doubling strength for another 5 minutes). Id think its the latter based on p 22 in BoM.

Smooth Operator wrote: All in all, either form of stacking is fairly easy to counter. Speed of the snail reduces pretty much all combat bonuses "to one third of their normal ability".

But now I'm thinking my previous paragraph cant be true because how can you concurrently have a third base stat while also having double base stat? Its not possible...or is it a difference between the two? Perhaps its just the last one cast is the answer regardless. Now I feel like I am playing Magic the Gathering again...

Smooth Operator wrote: Now, here's a question I'd like an answer to. Do the rules state what happens if you cast the same spell on yourself twice? Does it refresh the duration or stack with itself? I haven't found anything, but I haven't looked very hard either. I just automatically assumed that wouldn't work.

Not sure anymore Your above answer to the original topic brings up more questions. Im leaning to, in the event of the same spell cast twice, it effectively extends to duration to the last time the spell was cast. That way, either its the last spell cast, or it run concurrently with the first, the duration would still be the same in both rulings.

For multiplicitive bonuses, just think of x2 as being +100% of the base. So, if you could find and access two different spells that double an attribute, it would be x3 if you accept the referenced BoM statement as a ruling for all attributes. It's hard for me to say what it says without saying what it says, so it's probably best to read it.

For what it's worth, I think additional casts refresh the duration. I wouldn't stack effects. I haven't found anything that explicitly states it, but it makes sense the way I imagine magic to work.

Basically, I think of a spell as shaping magic in a specific way to create an effect in a specific way. For strength, maybe one spell has the effect of creating a complimentary force equal to what your muscles put out. Maybe another spell imroves the nervous system's signaling so that every cell contracts with maximum effort at the same time. Maybe another spell alters physics inside your body and cheats physics to increase the mechanical advantage of your muscles (it's ridiculously low if you think about it).

So, you have several spells that accomplish the same things in different ways. Casting the same spell again wouldn't do anything but refresh the duration because the effect it was designed to create is already happening. However, if you had all of these spells at your disposal, you could use them all and layer the effects.

Maybe that's way off base, but as an engineer, that's the best way I can wrap my head around it. It would explain why some of these spells can do more for some people than others with the same cost. If you've got more to work with, you get a better return for your investment. Some people might think that's too much logic to attribute to magic, but if you can cheat physics, biology, and maybe even entropy, that's magic to me.

Now speed of the snail, that's a case where is specifically states what it reduces stats to. Also it mentions altering time, so I'll just leave that one alone. Still though, if I'm reading it correctly, you basically get to use one cast to null all of the enemy mage's hard work. Kind of like kicking down someone's sand castle.

Smooth Operator wrote:just think of x2 as being +100% of the base.

This.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Smooth Operator wrote:just think of x2 as being +100% of the base.

This.

Okay, so now im back to what I normally do.

all you guys trying to do the +100% to base .. are using a house rule ..

The spells say double speed .. that is what it does. Anything other then doubling the speed (even if its already been doubled a couple times) is a house rule.

And can not be justified by anything other then a house rule.