Why does Rifts not utilize the "Time" aspect ?

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:27 pm

I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

Galroth · Unread post by **Galroth** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:37 pm

Lenwen wrote:I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

I believe they do touch on the time aspect in Dinasaur Swamp. I could be wrong though as I don't actually own that book.

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:46 pm

Galroth wrote:
Lenwen wrote:I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

I believe they do touch on the time aspect in Dinasaur Swamp. I could be wrong though as I don't actually own that book.

Do you not think tho that a Time based line of Rifts books .. would be a HUGE .. seller ?

Do you not also think that its basically an untouched market for Palladium ?

Looonatic · Unread post by **Looonatic** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:46 pm

There was a TMNT book that dealt with time travel. I vaguely recall the rules being very convoluted, but it might represent a good starting point for a cleaned and polished revision for a new RIFTS book.

Galroth · Unread post by **Galroth** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:54 pm

Lenwen wrote:
Galroth wrote:
Lenwen wrote:I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

I believe they do touch on the time aspect in Dinasaur Swamp. I could be wrong though as I don't actually own that book.

Do you not think tho that a Time based line of Rifts books .. would be a HUGE .. seller ?

Do you not also think that its basically an untouched market for Palladium ?

Not for me. I never really liked time travel all that much.

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Looonatic wrote:There was a TMNT book that dealt with time travel. I vaguely recall the rules being very convoluted, but it might represent a good starting point for a cleaned and polished revision for a new RIFTS book.

Good idea. I am very interested in a line of books.. like the dimension books .. but instead dealing with time travel. After all the Rifts are supposed to be time rips as well .

Balabanto · Unread post by **Balabanto** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:58 pm

I agree with Alexander.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:10 pm

You're also forgetting Temporal Magic, which, admittedly, is short 'range', but do you really want to be calculating paradox and cause-and-effect and the very fabric of space/time every time you get an argument with somebody and try to wipe him from existence?

If you don't get a pounding headache thinking about time-travel and paradox, you're not thinking hard enough.

Dunia · Unread post by **Dunia** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:17 pm

One could easily do this oneself, with the help of Chaos earth and some tweaking to PFRP, but it would be a great thing to do, to play with ''what if'' scenarios: What if Coalition Wins, what if Coalition falls to FedMag etc.

Mallak's Place · Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:26 pm

Our group had had several Time Trips each time we tried to keep to Sci-Fi rule #1
"Start messing with the past you end up with monkeys ruling the future."
Basicaly we kept our heads down and tried not to mess with History (to much) or in one case pervented a alternate History from happening.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:43 pm

Lenwen wrote:I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

Lenwen,

I have sent in a two-part submission to Wayne (Rifter) regarding time travel and have shown Kevin a huge book on Time Travel for Palladium (it is a seperate world - so that if GM's and players want to include it in a dimension it is possible to do so). I have not heard anything back from them.
Perhaps soon,
G

P.S. the new rules/game mechanics I created make paradox and time travel easier... And I play-tested the game at the Palladium Open House, the players had a good time!

dragonfett · Unread post by **dragonfett** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:52 pm

Hey guys, you do realize that by stepping through a portal that connects two distant point, that is technically a tear in the fabric of not just space but time as well. Why is that you may ask? Because by connecting two points that are not side by side, you also are eliminating the time that it would normally take to cover said distance (if two said points are even on the same plane of existence).

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:56 pm

Hey guys,

I just got an e-mail from Wayne. They are going to publish it!

dragonfett · Unread post by **dragonfett** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:58 pm

Sweet! Kudos to you!

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:20 pm

dragonfett wrote:Sweet! Kudos to you!

Thank you!

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:32 pm

Kovoston wrote:
Lenwen wrote:I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

Lenwen,

I have sent in a two-part submission to Wayne (Rifter) regarding time travel and have shown Kevin a huge book on Time Travel for Palladium (it is a seperate world - so that if GM's and players want to include it in a dimension it is possible to do so). I have not heard anything back from them.
Perhaps soon,
G

P.S. the new rules/game mechanics I created make paradox and time travel easier... And I play-tested the game at the Palladium Open House, the players had a good time!

I should VERY much like to read this !

Grats on the call too and I will be picking up which ever issue they decide to imput that into.OH YEAH !!

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:10 am

Lenwen wrote:
Kovoston wrote:
Lenwen wrote:I have been wondering for quite a while now Rifts is a tear in the space and TIME of the fabric of reality .. We have multiple dimensions .. which can be seen by the dimension books. Why has Kevin not even even hinted at ever using this VERY sweet gaming idea for a new expansion of books ?

The limits on the possabilities for THAT .. expansion of books is just beyond anything currently put out by Palladium. So my question is simply put .. Why does Palladium not utilize this HUGE resource an put out a book like for it ?

Lenwen,

I have sent in a two-part submission to Wayne (Rifter) regarding time travel and have shown Kevin a huge book on Time Travel for Palladium (it is a seperate world - so that if GM's and players want to include it in a dimension it is possible to do so). I have not heard anything back from them.
Perhaps soon,
G

He plans on using it in Rifter #56 if all goes well.
Thanks!

P.S. the new rules/game mechanics I created make paradox and time travel easier... And I play-tested the game at the Palladium Open House, the players had a good time!

I should VERY much like to read this !

Grats on the call too and I will be picking up which ever issue they decide to imput that into.OH YEAH !!

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:42 am

I generally dislike "Time travel" As source book stuff. As pointed out before they haven't finished covering 'this' world/timeline yet. With books we've been waiting 10+Years to get and such, making a time book that would mess around with established stuff wouldn't be prudent and the "Time travel" unless it's the cornerstone of your game, comes across a little convoluted.

I personally hope they won't do any ham fisted time book "In the year 201 PA the CS has spread to cover all of the US and bla bla bla" or "In 201 PA the CS has finally succumbed to it's enemies and fallen, bla bla bla". I love palladium but it's settings tend very much towards the 'pg' side and any 'future' would be almost a stereotypical 'fast forward' in one way or another. And people would never stop complaining. And it'd take up a slot for a book like.. Lumeria... or Northern Gun... books I've wanted for over a decade for the generalized "I watched Dr Who this week, lets make that into a source book" syndrome. (( Anyone seen Mutant Underground? Wonder why there's not an "X" Used in the entire book? So generalized to avoid that, that the book sucks? Anyone seen the "Super hero registration act" collums in the rifter? Notice anything there? lol ))

Time travel might be fun, but if you do it, it's 'Personal'. YOUR time travel and YOUR world changed YOUR way. If you try and shoehorn others into your temporal trips, it falls flat.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:35 am

Kovoston wrote:Hey guys,

I just got an e-mail from Wayne. They are going to publish it!

Of course, we now have another time problem to deal with...Time Until Publishing.
:twisted:

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:05 pm

Bad Mojo wrote:As for the TMNT time travel book, I pretend it never happened(didn't like anything in it).

not even the mutant dinosaurs?

Lenwen · Unread post by **Lenwen** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:00 am

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I generally dislike "Time travel" As source book stuff. As pointed out before they haven't finished covering 'this' world/timeline yet. With books we've been waiting 10+Years to get and such, making a time book that would mess around with established stuff wouldn't be prudent and the "Time travel" unless it's the cornerstone of your game, comes across a little convoluted.

I personally hope they won't do any ham fisted time book "In the year 201 PA the CS has spread to cover all of the US and bla bla bla" or "In 201 PA the CS has finally succumbed to it's enemies and fallen, bla bla bla". I love palladium but it's settings tend very much towards the 'pg' side and any 'future' would be almost a stereotypical 'fast forward' in one way or another. And people would never stop complaining. And it'd take up a slot for a book like.. Lumeria... or Northern Gun... books I've wanted for over a decade for the generalized "I watched Dr Who this week, lets make that into a source book" syndrome. (( Anyone seen Mutant Underground? Wonder why there's not an "X" Used in the entire book? So generalized to avoid that, that the book sucks? Anyone seen the "Super hero registration act" collums in the rifter? Notice anything there? lol ))

Time travel might be fun, but if you do it, it's 'Personal'. YOUR time travel and YOUR world changed YOUR way. If you try and shoehorn others into your temporal trips, it falls flat.

It is an untapped market .. you think to straight an narrow for myself.

They could easily make a time rift world book in which alternate realities formed .. (This is after all what Rifts is all about) there by seeding our "Megaverse" with Legit .. NEW worlds .. yet not new which cause of this or that went this way or that way ..

You do not like it ? Well ever heard of the Tolkeen siege ? I can not count how many palladium fans HATED .. that whole metaplot .. not having issue with who won or lost .. but how the outcome came to be .. Yet we got shoe horned into that whole mess ..

Personally I think the idea of an entire line of books introducing the whole "time travel" aspect of something that should have been there from day one .. is Long past the deadline of any project associated with the Rifts line to include Lumaria .. and Northern Gun .. Who needs yet another sourcebook of new tech toys ..

I was introduced to the game because of its revolutionary game setting .. not because I could tweek out a merc with the latest an greatest NG weapon 101 .. I think its time we finally get that option that was cut an tossed to the Palladium floor .. since day one .. .I think its time we get us some REAL .. alternate Dimensional Worlds .. we could "RIFT" to .. to truly make it a Megaversal system ..

PS_ who says Dr. Who holds the patent on time travel ? (or was I not understanding the whole Dr.Who refrence ? )

It seems to me .. people tend to want certain things .. but not want the new stuff .. the innovative stuff that could breath entire new players an entire new generations of players to the game .. something no other game on the market possess .. a TRULY .. megaversal system .

That is what I hope to see some day from palladium.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:15 am

Lenwen wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I generally dislike "Time travel" As source book stuff. As pointed out before they haven't finished covering 'this' world/timeline yet. With books we've been waiting 10+Years to get and such, making a time book that would mess around with established stuff wouldn't be prudent and the "Time travel" unless it's the cornerstone of your game, comes across a little convoluted.

I personally hope they won't do any ham fisted time book "In the year 201 PA the CS has spread to cover all of the US and bla bla bla" or "In 201 PA the CS has finally succumbed to it's enemies and fallen, bla bla bla". I love palladium but it's settings tend very much towards the 'pg' side and any 'future' would be almost a stereotypical 'fast forward' in one way or another. And people would never stop complaining. And it'd take up a slot for a book like.. Lumeria... or Northern Gun... books I've wanted for over a decade for the generalized "I watched Dr Who this week, lets make that into a source book" syndrome. (( Anyone seen Mutant Underground? Wonder why there's not an "X" Used in the entire book? So generalized to avoid that, that the book sucks? Anyone seen the "Super hero registration act" collums in the rifter? Notice anything there? lol ))

Time travel might be fun, but if you do it, it's 'Personal'. YOUR time travel and YOUR world changed YOUR way. If you try and shoehorn others into your temporal trips, it falls flat.

It is an untapped market .. you think to straight an narrow for myself.

The books that they've promised fans for years... if not literal DECADES are a rather untapped market. I've been waiting on Lemeria what.. 12 or 14 years? Palladium is routinely 6 months to a year behind what they 'update' project. That's if it doesn't get back burnered for years and years. Lemeria has been promised forever. Traix two took years and years and years. I'm sure with little effort we can rattle off 10 to 20 books promised and undelivered. Until they can get books out when they're supposed to, they don't need to spin off side optional material.

Lenwen wrote:
They could easily make a time rift world book in which alternate realities formed .. (This is after all what Rifts is all about) there by seeding our "Megaverse" with Legit .. NEW worlds .. yet not new which cause of this or that went this way or that way ..

Again as pointed out above, until they catch up with the projected books they have, why spin off 'Optional' material? It's not that it's impossible. Sure alternate time lines are possible. In rifts earth sure, even more so. It's that there's soooo much promised that hasn't yet been delivered, that taking time and pushing those projects back to enter in the time book would be even more insulting to those of us waiting years for promised books.

Lenwen wrote:
You do not like it ? Well ever heard of the Tolkeen siege ? I can not count how many palladium fans HATED .. that whole metaplot .. not having issue with who won or lost .. but how the outcome came to be .. Yet we got shoe horned into that whole mess ..

You asked a question. My opinion was part of the answer. I didn't mind the siege on tolkeen. My only complaint was how it was one of the "one year projects" that took years to finish. Sort of like the current hades war thing was supposed to be a one year thing and done and we're what... 3 or 4 years into it now and a book or two from completion? I personally don't much like the Minion war. I think the books are a bit bla. But I'm hanging in there. I buy them all. Thusly, with my money in palladiums hand. I can give my opinion.

Lenwen wrote:
Personally I think the idea of an entire line of books introducing the whole "time travel" aspect of something that should have been there from day one .. is Long past the deadline of any project associated with the Rifts line to include Lumaria .. and Northern Gun .. Who needs yet another sourcebook of new tech toys ..

How much can you do with that concept? Sounds more like a rifter article to me. Or maybe a series of them at most. An entire line of books? *Shakes head* A spell to move though time. Maybe 5 just so you have different flavors. that's what. 2, 3 pages? Then technological ways to do it.. another 2 or 3.. then all you have is 'Alternate time lines" and people that are invested $100s and $100s into "This" Time line's books, aren't going to want to just instantly step into another.

If they DO want alternate time lines with the same material, they have rifts. They can just 'do' it. I think you're vastly over estimating the draw of buying alternate books of the same thing.

Some of us have been waiting for Lumeria and Northern gun.

Lenwen wrote:
I was introduced to the game because of its revolutionary game setting .. not because I could tweek out a merc with the latest an greatest NG weapon 101 .. I think its time we finally get that option that was cut an tossed to the Palladium floor .. since day one .. .I think its time we get us some REAL .. alternate Dimensional Worlds .. we could "RIFT" to .. to truly make it a Megaversal system ..

For the record, I dont' want Northern Gun for the guns. I want it for the local. lol It's where I live.
You want other dimensions. Have your group fall through a rift. Make um what ever you want. Some of us want concrete information that we've been promised for years and years and years. There's two other threads on the boards now on "How long have you been playing Rifts" or "how'd you start pallaium" Look at it. Many of us have been playing literal decades. (( as in more than one. 20+years)) that's a long wait for some of these books.

Lenwen wrote:
PS_ who says Dr. Who holds the patent on time travel ? (or was I not understanding the whole Dr.Who refrence ? )

It was a more side handed sterotypical reference to gamer's seeing something on TV and it suddenly appearing in the game. The Mutant Underground book ----was---- the Xmen Setting with out the Xmen. It was almost taken point for point. Mutants. How people were scared of them and feard them. How there was anti mutant racisim sort of stuff. How there was a government agency that sought to gather up all the mutants and what not, even though Heroes Unlimited has 30 kinda hero, the mutants were singled out. How there was the 'Underground' mutants. *Cough Murlocks* I could keep going on. But for all of Palladiums _____________NO CONVERSIONS________________ It read like someone went to the Xmen Wiki, took anything "X" or "MARVEL" out of it, and totally generic'd it, to the point of blandness and boredom. I love HU. I love Xmen. That book is one of the worst ones Palladium's put out. When Battlestar was popular we got alot of phase world and fleets of the 3 galaxies. Last year or the year before, Marvel did a huge story arch "SuperHero Registration Act" Rifter 53, rifter 54, ... wow.. Superhero registration act.

Now, I'm a firm believer in playing what's fun. And I know in "Super hero games" Mutants are a standard sterotypical thing. In space games, big space ships are a standard thing... ect.. but the above is the sort of thing I was referencing. Something gets cool in modern geekdom, and then suddenly there's a sourcebook in the works. lol Sadly with palladium it usually takes a year or three to get to presses. Dr Who got cool about 4 or 5 years ago. (( Yes I know it's been around for ever. But the new upswing started with the 9th doctor which hit screen in.... 2005. And took a while to catch on. Then we got a couple of new ones. and the 'geek cred' of Dr Who is in a current upswing. (( well this season is a bit of a downswing but it's "Been" in an upswing for about 5 years)) and you're callin' for time books. *shrugs* Where where ya for the previous 20 years? *Chuckles*

but yeah, it was a general reference for 'It's sellin' on TV. Quick someone write an RPG book for it" thing. (( Hey I like popular Sci-fi stuff. lol but it's kinda funny))

Lenwen wrote:
It seems to me .. people tend to want certain things .. but not want the new stuff .. the innovative stuff that could breath entire new players an entire new generations of players to the game .. something no other game on the market possess .. a TRULY .. megaversal system .

But it's not new. It's always been a part of rifts. So it's 20 years old. Nor is it even new then. "Time travel" has been part of Sci Fi pretty much from the start. Nor is it really innovative when one of the major SciFi shows on now... is about a time travelin' time lord. It's flavor of the week stuff.

Palladium did a Transdimentional/Time travel book. You can find it on Ebay with little effort. I personally like it for the Eastman art and the dinosaurs.

It was written in 1989.

Lenwen wrote:That is what I hope to see some day from palladium.

Well we all want what we want. You want time travel. I'd rather have Lumeria, Northern Gun, Something in the "NO touchy" land west of the "new Rockies" A real Rifts Australia book. Ect ect ect.

Your question was 'Why does rifts not utilize the 'time' aspect. The answer was generally. "Don't want it" and "They're not done solidifying "THIS" timeline. Why branch off?.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:44 am

Bad Mojo wrote:Ah, glad we might get something time travel related. I was also feeling "Time" was being left out of the rifts books. A book dealing with time travel, new time magic/tech, powerful gods/aliens(intelligences)/dbees/creatures who move and manipulate time/history, and what if scenarios would be cool. As for the TMNT time travel book, I pretend it never happened(didn't like anything in it).

Bad Mojo,

You pretty much summed up what was in the forthcoming article (unless Wayne has edited out something). I wanted a fresh new start for Time Travel and I think the Palladium crew saw that and liked it.
G

kogwar · Unread post by **kogwar** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:21 pm

I agree that a time book would eb a few rifter articles at ebst and if you get too many alt time lines you end up like dc comics who ahs to now restart there lien because it si so convoluted with alt lines for gods sake there are 4 batmans but i digress if you want alt history run it in your group but i see no need for a book since the majority of america is not covered the middle east (Though that has its own reasons for nto beign covered), africa and the mediteranian, are hardly touched do those before a time book finish the setting before changing it.

Also grats Kovo

glitterboy2098 · Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:29 pm

rifts already explores the time aspect.
you have lots of stuff being brough forwards by the rifts. (dinosaurs, victor lazlo, the Tundra Rangers, half of freaking japan..), and there have been an umber of HLS's in the adventure guide and GMG that offer backwards time travel to pre-rifts or chaos earth time periods, or include items or people who travelled back from the future.

one of the big issues with timetravel in any setting, but espcially in a megaversal setting, is how one treats timelines. if you can overwrite your own timeline, any time travel method quickly becomes "quick, to the UNDO BUTTON!". if you can't, and any change you make spins off into a new timeline..how is this different from normal dimensional travel?

if you can overwrite a timeline, how do you know someone else has done so? you'd be overwritten too (makes villans uber..), and if your just spinning off a new timeline, if a villan goes back and ensures that [insert faction] here conquers the world...who cares? it won't effect your own world/timeline. let [villan name] play around in their own temporal sandbox..

this was one of the reasons the "twists and cycles" method of TDTMNT is so popular here. it allowed timetravel without the option of an undo button, since you could only visit specific eras and time elapsed carried over to all the others. (and since there were dozens, hundreds , thousands, or millions of years between accessable eras, doing the "going back and leaving clues for my past self" doesn't really work well.)
and whether a timeline spun off or was overwritten was up to the GM, although the in book adventures indicated that minor changes (like someone using an assualt rifle in the civil war) would not spin off a new timeline, but merely ripple forward and make changes so subtle that people could remember the previous state as a form of "huh, i could have sworn..' feeling. (call it the Guinan effect..)

personally i'm with pepsi jedi. i'd rather have more of the promised rifts books than a book on time travel. i don't think rifts needs to deal with it. that said, i'd love to see TDTMNT's time travel scheme redone to work with heroes unlimited...timetravel is a popular superhero plot element, and you can easily define the timeline into the classic superhero era's of pulp/silver/gold/etc... (see rifter #5 for great details on that)

The Baron of chaos · Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:41 pm

Well First off I agree with Glitterboy opinion here, as Time travel is quite tricky and within its limit had already been covered in many points in Rifts Earth.
I add that as megaversal rules go, the best source is the one and only Trasdimensional Turtle. Here Erik Wujik put down some nifty rules for a manageable Time Travelling campaign, quite a brilliant idea that say, yes you can travel through time, but there are a few limits: a) you can only jump back and forth in time only of a certain FIXED amount of tim . Twist of roughly 125 years(bt very depending on cycles) and Cycles(that encompass twists) that encompass largess amount of times. And you can't really make one single time leap to reach a precise timeline. b) also due the limit of synchronicity if you spend an hour in the past and then go return in present an hour will have passed, because you can occupy the same space the same time and time is like a flux, so it keep on moving even if you travel within c) this because everythign is charged with Temporal Energy and travelling in time can do weird thing to it, and this coudl cause...strangeness.
Is actually more easy to get than I havemade it. Also form what I seem to understadnr eading many Palladium Books, the concept of alternative timelines exist, so travelling past in time and changing event would result only in the brith of a parallel time line(now I WON'T dwell in the nature of parallel time lines and what alternative present you will reach travelling form acommon point in past...).
But really just give a look at Trasndimensional Turtles and Megaverse Builder, they will help better than any general, offtopic, irrelevant commnet I could give..

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:47 am

The thing is, if you're going to do that, in the way 'You want', you don't -want- books. Because books will enforce -rules-.

You want the 'I wanna be allowed to do it the way I wanna do it"

You have that now. *Waves hand* Make up your own rules.

If you want 'hard' rules for time travel they're not going to fit all those different movies/things, as they all use different types and methods and repercussions ect.

Nothing's stopping you from doing time travel. It's easy. *Waves hand*

"A rift opens with a roaring tear and you're ripped from your feet and flung though the tear in space/time"

Poof. Done. Land where and _WHEN_ your GM wants you to. Play on.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:44 am

They do after all Lazlo came to Rifts. The books are Rifts Present, Near Past, Distant Past. They are called Rifts, Chaos Earth and Beyond the Supernatural. Other dimensions PB has but are not covered by the Rifts: Dimensions books... well I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

glitterboy2098 · Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:58 am

can't blame you, but know your market. rifts has enough going on that time travel really doesn't add much to it.
heroes unlimited, ninja's and superspies, and some of the others might work well, given the fairly vague nature of their worlds.

personally, due to the potential balance issues of non-temporal gameplay (such as pulling a bill and ted's bogus adventure ending..), it might work best as a stand alone setting. some universe out there in the megaverse that doesn't use the cycles/twists set up..and where time travel is the main focus of the game. perhaps set the characters up as agents of various time travel agencies out to manipulate their history in various fashions. the old story collection Oddessy by Keith laumerhad a novella that explored one aspect of such an idea, where there were several eras of such agencies, starting with various forms of 'time tourists', and eventually developing into police agencies to try and fix the damage of the tourists, and farther up the timeline, the damage caused by the previous agencies efforts. to the point you had temporal wars going on between an agency and their future descendants.
the star trek novel Watching the clock examined some of the same concepts, while showcasing a temporal model based on current quantum phsyics with a smattering of technobabble handwavium to explain some of the weirder trek episodes. (annotations by the author can be found here, warning, potential spoilers..)

one of the problems with time travel in a roleplaying game is that without alot of rules to limit what you can do, time travel becomes basically an 'i win button'. with nothing to prevent a player from pulling a bill and ted (going back to just before a tough situation to preset events that make it easy...and like the movie, all they have to do is tell the GM "well, i'll go back and set up X"... it's like the ultimate meta gaming.), or a red vs. blue (looping through time so that you can have two hundred of yourself at a particular point in time..), or dr.who christmas special (going back and altering the past of the bad guy as a kid to make him a good guy, all to avoid actually having to confront him during some other event..) and so on... it makes creating good adventures pretty hard. any halfway intellegent player will be able to use time travel to metagame and go munchkin, with the GM not really having much ability to say "you can't do that".

and if you set up universal rules to prevent that (since organization based rules WILL be broken by the players..), you've also wiped out most of the point ot having a "go anywhen" time travel system.

TDTMNT avoids this with it's cycles and constant flow approach. you still get the fun of time travel adventures, but you can't use time travel as an instant win device.

The Baron of chaos · Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:30 am

glitterboy2098 wrote:can't blame you, but know your market. rifts has enough going on that time travel really doesn't add much to it.
heroes unlimited, ninja's and superspies, and some of the others might work well, given the fairly vague nature of their worlds.

personally, due to the potential balance issues of non-temporal gameplay (such as pulling a bill and ted's bogus adventure ending..), it might work best as a stand alone setting. some universe out there in the megaverse that doesn't use the cycles/twists set up..and where time travel is the main focus of the game. perhaps set the characters up as agents of various time travel agencies out to manipulate their history in various fashions. the old story collection Oddessy by Keith laumerhad a novella that explored one aspect of such an idea, where there were several eras of such agencies, starting with various forms of 'time tourists', and eventually developing into police agencies to try and fix the damage of the tourists, and farther up the timeline, the damage caused by the previous agencies efforts. to the point you had temporal wars going on between an agency and their future descendants.
the star trek novel Watching the clock examined some of the same concepts, while showcasing a temporal model based on current quantum phsyics with a smattering of technobabble handwavium to explain some of the weirder trek episodes. (annotations by the author can be found here, warning, potential spoilers..)

one of the problems with time travel in a roleplaying game is that without alot of rules to limit what you can do, time travel becomes basically an 'i win button'. with nothing to prevent a player from pulling a bill and ted (going back to just before a tough situation to preset events that make it easy...and like the movie, all they have to do is tell the GM "well, i'll go back and set up X"... it's like the ultimate meta gaming.), or a red vs. blue (looping through time so that you can have two hundred of yourself at a particular point in time..), or dr.who christmas special (going back and altering the past of the bad guy as a kid to make him a good guy, all to avoid actually having to confront him during some other event..) and so on... it makes creating good adventures pretty hard. any halfway intellegent player will be able to use time travel to metagame and go munchkin, with the GM not really having much ability to say "you can't do that".

and if you set up universal rules to prevent that (since organization based rules WILL be broken by the players..), you've also wiped out most of the point ot having a "go anywhen" time travel system.

TDTMNT avoids this with it's cycles and constant flow approach. you still get the fun of time travel adventures, but you can't use time travel as an instant win device.

I agree wiht that. Time travel make for some good, but often extremely confusing, reading, but it is quite hard to roleplay it unless in a setting specifically made for it, also in the end YOU NEED some rules to limit what you can or cannot do...Also pretyty much any fictional setting had its own set of rules, some even more strict (and confusing) that the Twist/Cycle.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:40 am

Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

The Baron of chaos · Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:33 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

Oh don't know, 9 times out of ten fiction gave use something to prevent such things.
Either the universe won't allow it - "you can use time machine to prevent the event that triggered its creation/use in first place" , generally fixing things in some way, or the lack of all knowing, prevent to foresee ALL the consequences of any change in time, or you can only travel in parallel, but similar, world. all this to prevent the universe to collapse unto himself due paradox.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:49 pm

The Baron of chaos wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

Oh don't know, 9 times out of ten fiction gave use something to prevent such things.
Either the universe won't allow it - "you can use time machine to prevent the event that triggered its creation/use in first place" , generally fixing things in some way, or the lack of all knowing, prevent to foresee ALL the consequences of any change in time, or you can only travel in parallel, but similar, world. all this to prevent the universe to collapse unto himself due paradox.

That's the point. With out enforcing a 'god rule' or something via OOC hand of god... you swiftly get this result. Or the converse one.

"Living in Rifts time is dangerous and hard! I'll use my time machine to travel back to "Rift day -20 years" and live my life then in the golden age. End of game." lol

Time travel is cool and all, but do we need books for such things, when each and every game would have to be 100% "personalized" and 100% "Separate from established cannon" ?

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:17 pm

Wow, what a debate we have going on here!

I wouldn't create/write a book that was an "alternate timeline" to Rifts Earth or anything known (unless Kevin asked me to). I HAVE already written a book (not the one that I submitted to the Rifter) that is in a Far Future setting (not hundreds of years but thousands - so the technology and magic are very advanced and guarded) and is an alternate world that is not connected to Rifts, BTS, N&SS, Scraypers, Palladium Fantasy or anything. Why did I do it? Because my players (I think there are 60+ of them by now, that I have run in these many years) came to me and asked for it!

The Game World stands alone, unless the PLayers and the GM want it to intersect with their personal game world somehow (either magicly or technologically). That's all that is really needed!!

I used to speak to Eric Wujcik on the phone and he was the type of GM that allowed for unlimited adventures in his games, with a slant of creativity, and yes game balance that suited the genre of that world!
I agree that we need Time Travel updated with NEW things in it (That's why I wrote the Rifter Article because my players are new, and dont understand much of the mechanics of the older material - and they didn't like the mutant animals).
I'm certain that a lot of people will not care for much of what I have written but that's the way it is. I think all our writers and artists have taken a beating for what they have created... People who want to use the OPTIONAL rules are more that welcome to it!

Oh, BTW... If anyone tries to use time travel to their advantage in game, then I have a nasty suprise (actually many nasty suprises) waiting for them. This new enemy is out looking for you! The plot is simple and direct and the players who are smart will live - those who are stupid will probably be destroyed by the new enemy.

I wish I had every one of you on this thread in a game with me as GM. I sure would like to see you as a group adventureing, role-playing and dealing with this new threat! Magic, new aliens, new technology, new civilizations, new psionics, new spirits and gods, new secret organizations, new weapons and a new enemy! I use time travel as a backdrop and not as the main theme. The danger sometimes lies within the game group and there is more out there than what is created in any of the books.

Like i said, I ran the game at the 2009 Palladium Open House and it went well! Who knows, with the input of players there may be a suplimental book with all these unique aspects in it.

Game on folks!
G

Looonatic · Unread post by **Looonatic** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:29 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

Impossible. If they went back with proof the Cataclysm happened and managed to convince people thus preventing the Cataclysm, they would have no reason to go back in time and no proof to show. Thus it is by definition impossible to travel through time to prevent the reason you had to travel through time.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:22 am

Looonatic wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

Impossible. If they went back with proof the Cataclysm happened and managed to convince people thus preventing the Cataclysm, they would have no reason to go back in time and no proof to show. Thus it is by definition impossible to travel through time to prevent the reason you had to travel through time.

For a lunatic , you make a lot of sense!

Prince Artemis · Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:03 am

This was covered with Kevin over several shows actually. He's not a huge fan of time travel, since it can easily be turned into a crutch for things and he has no plans on expanding it beyond what is already in the books (at the time of the shows, things may have changed).

Also, period based rpgs tend to fail spectacularly so no, it's not a huge seller that they haven't tapped yet. It's a dud their not wasting time on.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:35 pm

Looonatic wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

Impossible. If they went back with proof the Cataclysm happened and managed to convince people thus preventing the Cataclysm, they would have no reason to go back in time and no proof to show. Thus it is by definition impossible to travel through time to prevent the reason you had to travel through time.

As if time travel it self didn't hit the 'impossible barrier'

But, no. It's not. It's a time paradox. And thus, is the crux of the problem. When you mess around with time you have infinate butterfly effect. (( and I don't mean the crappy movie))

ANYTHING you do in time, changes things. You could step on a plant by accident. it dies, so it doesn't grow into a tree, a tree that later has a branch that falls off and breaks little Georgey's leg.. Georgey doesn't have a summer sitting in the house reading books so he doesn't get the urge to run for president and POOF You've altered the course of history by simply stepping on a plant....

You COULD go back in time, and warn people about the Cataclysm... and while the Cataclysm would still happen, the world would be much much more prepaired. Thus changing the landscape of the entire game. Thusly you might erace your SELF, when the time stream rippeled. but the time stream would already be changed.

That's if you're playing with a time stream that self corrects. Conversely you could ((Back to the future style)) have created an ALTERNATE time stream, where you warned earth and they're much more ready for the events, and you're in THAT, new and ALTERED time stream..

But 'Impossible to do'? Not if time travel is 'Possible' and this is the exact sorta crap that makes an entire BOOK on time travel ukky.

A rifter article? SURE!! Optional stuff for it in the rifter? Sure.. I'd read it. It'd be interesting. Established cannon? An entire book or (( multiple)) Books worth? No thank you.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:16 pm

Looonatic wrote:There was a TMNT book that dealt with time travel. I vaguely recall the rules being very convoluted, but it might represent a good starting point for a cleaned and polished revision for a new RIFTS book.

It was called Transdimensional TMNT and those that don't like that MDC turns to SDC in an SDC world wouldn't like it because the TE, temporal energy, that permiates everything can do that. It could change a GAU-8 Avenger into a musket if you go backwards and a war chariot into a tank if you go foward. Of course some would say that makes more sense than the current Rifts deal with you never know what a rift will do to you.

glitterboy2098 · Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:25 pm

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Looonatic wrote:There was a TMNT book that dealt with time travel. I vaguely recall the rules being very convoluted, but it might represent a good starting point for a cleaned and polished revision for a new RIFTS book.

It was called Transdimensional TMNT and those that don't like that MDC turns to SDC in an SDC world wouldn't like it because the TE, temporal energy, that permiates everything can do that. It could change a GAU-8 Avenger into a musket if you go backwards and a war chariot into a tank if you go foward. Of course some would say that makes more sense than the current Rifts deal with you never know what a rift will do to you.

uhhh..source on that one? TE became Bio-E, so only living things got changed. non-living things were uneffected. otherwise the adventure where Doc Feral sells modern submachineguns to the confederate army in the 1800's wouldn't work at all.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:27 pm

I think instead of time it would be more interesting to do a fan submitted book series with each individuals submission being about the size of a Rifter. Each book would present an parallel rifts dimension. I was toying with calling the series Rifts: Genesis as each one is a new beginning.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:31 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Looonatic wrote:There was a TMNT book that dealt with time travel. I vaguely recall the rules being very convoluted, but it might represent a good starting point for a cleaned and polished revision for a new RIFTS book.

It was called Transdimensional TMNT and those that don't like that MDC turns to SDC in an SDC world wouldn't like it because the TE, temporal energy, that permiates everything can do that. It could change a GAU-8 Avenger into a musket if you go backwards and a war chariot into a tank if you go foward. Of course some would say that makes more sense than the current Rifts deal with you never know what a rift will do to you.

uhhh..source on that one? TE became Bio-E, so only living things got changed. non-living things were uneffected. otherwise the adventure where Doc Feral sells modern submachineguns to the confederate army in the 1800's wouldn't work at all.

Actually non-living things were affected as well, either rapidly eroding and breaking down as a result of TE decaying it or it went in the other direction it tended to be okay just got a bit better/more reliable as it was now a bit more durable.

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:38 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Looonatic wrote:There was a TMNT book that dealt with time travel. I vaguely recall the rules being very convoluted, but it might represent a good starting point for a cleaned and polished revision for a new RIFTS book.

It was called Transdimensional TMNT and those that don't like that MDC turns to SDC in an SDC world wouldn't like it because the TE, temporal energy, that permiates everything can do that. It could change a GAU-8 Avenger into a musket if you go backwards and a war chariot into a tank if you go foward. Of course some would say that makes more sense than the current Rifts deal with you never know what a rift will do to you.

uhhh..source on that one? TE became Bio-E, so only living things got changed. non-living things were uneffected. otherwise the adventure where Doc Feral sells modern submachineguns to the confederate army in the 1800's wouldn't work at all.

Uhhh... I gave you the source. TMNT: Transdimensional. TE never became Bio-E EVER. Bio-E has ALWAYS been Bio-E... ALWAYS. TE is the mechanic presented in TMNT:Transdimensional for explaining why time travelers from the future can't bring advanced weapons and annihilate the Barbarians AND the mechanic that allows PCs to travel to the future and not get annihilated by a violent coalition that knows that people dissapeared from x spot 100 years ago and have a small force posted at the spot just to kill them when ever they come through... not saying that would be practical but that would be the kind of things a dumb GM would try to pull.

Looonatic · Unread post by **Looonatic** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:32 pm

Kovoston wrote:
Looonatic wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Add in a Time travel book to rifts... give rules for it.

Takes your group about 10 minutes to figure out if they travel back in time to before the rifts hit. Take proof with them warn the world. Then. poof the world prepairs for rifts and.... 50 rifts books the GM owns are suddenly usless.

Impossible. If they went back with proof the Cataclysm happened and managed to convince people thus preventing the Cataclysm, they would have no reason to go back in time and no proof to show. Thus it is by definition impossible to travel through time to prevent the reason you had to travel through time.

For a lunatic , you make a lot of sense!

Crazy is the new Sane. :-D

glitterboy2098 · Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:17 pm

Zer0 Kay wrote:Uhhh... I gave you the source. TMNT: Transdimensional. TE never became Bio-E EVER. Bio-E has ALWAYS been Bio-E... ALWAYS. TE is the mechanic presented in TMNT:Transdimensional for explaining why time travelers from the future can't bring advanced weapons and annihilate the Barbarians AND the mechanic that allows PCs to travel to the future and not get annihilated by a violent coalition that knows that people dissapeared from x spot 100 years ago and have a small force posted at the spot just to kill them when ever they come through... not saying that would be practical but that would be the kind of things a dumb GM would try to pull.

page number please. i have TDTMNT open here, and i'm not seeing that at all.

on pg 33 it says mechanical devices brought backwards in time tend to 'erode'. rust, become dull, etc. objects moved forwards become more durable. then it goes on to talk about how long it takes for these effects to manifest (weeks for a short hop [under a million years], days for longer hops, with increasing chances after that peroid)

then it goes on to talk about how living creatures 'evolve' going forwards, and 'devolve' going backwards. you make a save vs. change after certain peroids of time, then gain or lose 5 bio-E each time you fail, until you 'adapt' to the TE level (how long is given i nthe book)

the book then talks about temporal freeze, pushing the time stream vs jumping it, and then the rule about synchrosity and geography of time.

in the adventure "doc feral's Dynamic Dimensional doohicky" (starts on pg96), doc feral invents a time machine, which a disgruntled employee of his steals, installs in an old pick up truck, and uses to sell 20th century weapons to the confederates in the american civil war.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:02 pm

Okay, do you really need paradox in a time travel game...? No, you do not! Popular theory nowadays in the scientific community state that paradox doesn't exsit.

When I first started reserching paradox I came up with so many possibilities that I often allowed my players to pick their predestined law of causality... It turned out pretty okay as many of the players I ran wanted nothing to do with the more chaotic form of temporal paradox. They went back in time found the villain and brought him back to justice along with his futureistic weapons. No harm done...

Anyone read Michael Crichton's TIMELINE novel? He was a smart fellow. He had it to where there was no paradox at all (Yes, I said it was stupid too when I first read it but...), and unleas you destroyed the entire planet Earth or something like that, then you wouldn't change much of anything... The old Series of Doctor Who was like that (Tom Baker's Doctor said to Sara Jane that unless you are a POWERFUL being - like Sutek the god-like Destroyer, you would have a hard time fouling the timeline as it is like a rubber band - try killing Hitler as a child and someone else will take his place). They always said that Time was really resiliant and could repair itself in many ways. Of course in my game there are beings that will stop you if you get crazy...

Quote: "If a person goes back in time to change something specific, once the change is made there would be no impetus for the person to go back and make what now does not have to be changed..so, if the person doesn't go back the change never gets made so now the person DOES want to go back to make the change, and so it goes around in a mobius strip-like loop. supposedly if one could go back in time and change something then all existence would cease to advance beyond the point of the trip back and the universe would be trapped in this temporal snare...which is like trying to discuss religion with a prune or some other lower life form, and if you've ever tried that, then you know what life must be like for women married to insurance salesmen..."
Taken from the Impossibilities web.

Honestly, you don't have to have paradox in the game.
But I as the GM put it there cause I like to mess with my players.

My two cents worth!
G

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:12 pm

Kovoston wrote:Okay, do you really need paradox in a time travel game...? No, you do not! Popular theory nowadays in the scientific community state that paradox doesn't exsit.

When I first started reserching paradox I came up with so many possibilities that I often allowed my players to pick their predestined law of causality... It turned out pretty okay as many of the players I ran wanted nothing to do with the more chaotic form of temporal paradox. They went back in time found the villain and brought him back to justice along with his futureistic weapons. No harm done...

Anyone read Michael Crichton's TIMELINE novel? He was a smart fellow. He had it to where there was no paradox at all (Yes, I said it was stupid too when I first read it but...), and unleas you destroyed the entire planet Earth or something like that, then you wouldn't change much of anything... The old Series of Doctor Who was like that (Tom Baker's Doctor said to Sara Jane that unless you are a POWERFUL being - like Sutek the god-like Destroyer, you would have a hard time fouling the timeline as it is like a rubber band - try killing Hitler as a child and someone else will take his place). They always said that Time was really resiliant and could repair itself in many ways. Of course in my game there are beings that will stop you if you get crazy...

Quote: "If a person goes back in time to change something specific, once the change is made there would be no impetus for the person to go back and make what now does not have to be changed..so, if the person doesn't go back the change never gets made so now the person DOES want to go back to make the change, and so it goes around in a mobius strip-like loop. supposedly if one could go back in time and change something then all existence would cease to advance beyond the point of the trip back and the universe would be trapped in this temporal snare...which is like trying to discuss religion with a prune or some other lower life form, and if you've ever tried that, then you know what life must be like for women married to insurance salesmen..."
Taken from the Impossibilities web.

Honestly, you don't have to have paradox in the game.
But I as the GM put it there cause I like to mess with my players.

My two cents worth!
G

The thing is, for that theory to be 'accepted' you're presuming (( with no factual basis what so ever)) that we are destined to be where we are. I tend to by and large leave destiny out of my sci fi. You say if you went back and killed hitler as a kid, that someone else would just take his place and get the same result. There's no evidence that can be cited that the world is on a pre-set path of destiny in that nature.

For your explanation of time travel to be accepted, we have to accept that, and that just means that nothing we do matters because the world is going where it's going no matter what choices we make.

I don't except that as fact.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:45 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Kovoston wrote:Okay, do you really need paradox in a time travel game...? No, you do not! Popular theory nowadays in the scientific community state that paradox doesn't exsit.

When I first started reserching paradox I came up with so many possibilities that I often allowed my players to pick their predestined law of causality... It turned out pretty okay as many of the players I ran wanted nothing to do with the more chaotic form of temporal paradox. They went back in time found the villain and brought him back to justice along with his futureistic weapons. No harm done...

Anyone read Michael Crichton's TIMELINE novel? He was a smart fellow. He had it to where there was no paradox at all (Yes, I said it was stupid too when I first read it but...), and unleas you destroyed the entire planet Earth or something like that, then you wouldn't change much of anything... The old Series of Doctor Who was like that (Tom Baker's Doctor said to Sara Jane that unless you are a POWERFUL being - like Sutek the god-like Destroyer, you would have a hard time fouling the timeline as it is like a rubber band - try killing Hitler as a child and someone else will take his place). They always said that Time was really resiliant and could repair itself in many ways. Of course in my game there are beings that will stop you if you get crazy...

Quote: "If a person goes back in time to change something specific, once the change is made there would be no impetus for the person to go back and make what now does not have to be changed..so, if the person doesn't go back the change never gets made so now the person DOES want to go back to make the change, and so it goes around in a mobius strip-like loop. supposedly if one could go back in time and change something then all existence would cease to advance beyond the point of the trip back and the universe would be trapped in this temporal snare...which is like trying to discuss religion with a prune or some other lower life form, and if you've ever tried that, then you know what life must be like for women married to insurance salesmen..."
Taken from the Impossibilities web.

Honestly, you don't have to have paradox in the game.
But I as the GM put it there cause I like to mess with my players.

My two cents worth!
G

The thing is, for that theory to be 'accepted' you're presuming (( with no factual basis what so ever)) that we are destined to be where we are. I tend to by and large leave destiny out of my sci fi. You say if you went back and killed hitler as a kid, that someone else would just take his place and get the same result. There's no evidence that can be cited that the world is on a pre-set path of destiny in that nature.

For your explanation of time travel to be accepted, we have to accept that, and that just means that nothing we do matters because the world is going where it's going no matter what choices we make.

I don't except that as fact.

Well that was Owlman's motivation for wanting to destroy Earth Prime, the idea that if all possibilities existed then there was no free will and the only action that could matter would be destroying everything (meanwhile his counter-part decided it was pointless to try and destroy everything and would make no difference as something would negate his choice being successful).

So for free will to exist a multiverse can't contain every possible choice, if every choice exists then there is no free will and everything's just an illusion of it. From what I gather of the Trandimensional TMNT set-up not all possibilities come into being and one can go back and alter time as history will reorder itself around the change without paradox being a problem as it simply accepts the new events (although the reordering is slow enough someone with suitable powers or skills can detect it and attempt to fix things).

Zer0 Kay · Unread post by **Zer0 Kay** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:13 am

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Uhhh... I gave you the source. TMNT: Transdimensional. TE never became Bio-E EVER. Bio-E has ALWAYS been Bio-E... ALWAYS. TE is the mechanic presented in TMNT:Transdimensional for explaining why time travelers from the future can't bring advanced weapons and annihilate the Barbarians AND the mechanic that allows PCs to travel to the future and not get annihilated by a violent coalition that knows that people dissapeared from x spot 100 years ago and have a small force posted at the spot just to kill them when ever they come through... not saying that would be practical but that would be the kind of things a dumb GM would try to pull.

page number please. i have TDTMNT open here, and i'm not seeing that at all.

on pg 33 it says mechanical devices brought backwards in time tend to 'erode'. rust, become dull, etc. objects moved forwards become more durable. then it goes on to talk about how long it takes for these effects to manifest (weeks for a short hop [under a million years], days for longer hops, with increasing chances after that peroid)

then it goes on to talk about how living creatures 'evolve' going forwards, and 'devolve' going backwards. you make a save vs. change after certain peroids of time, then gain or lose 5 bio-E each time you fail, until you 'adapt' to the TE level (how long is given i nthe book)

the book then talks about temporal freeze, pushing the time stream vs jumping it, and then the rule about synchrosity and geography of time.

in the adventure "doc feral's Dynamic Dimensional doohicky" (starts on pg96), doc feral invents a time machine, which a disgruntled employee of his steals, installs in an old pick up truck, and uses to sell 20th century weapons to the confederates in the american civil war.

Yeah I think the actual transformation part may have been a house rull... so many years ago sorry. But as you just stated the TE is still there and is not bio-E. But more durrable as they move foward in time so you go from 200 AD and jump to 209PA and that Centurion armor is MDC. You take that Deadboy armor back and it is only able to stop SDC damage. At least that is the way we looked at it when we applied the mechanic to Rifts in order to explain the SDC become MDC and MDC becomes SDC bit.

Kovoston · Unread post by **Kovoston** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:44 am

Yes,
But that's the point Pepsi Jedi. Free Will vs. Fate is a great plot idea if the players want it. I do see what you mean when you say that. It's up to the players and GM to choose what they want in a game and go with it.

Was the Coalition destined to go on battling monsters and Dee-bees for ever?
Was Victor Lazlo destined to end up in Rifts Germany?
Was Heroes Earth destined to be invaded by demons?
Did the Nightbane hear the call of Fate when Dark Day occured?
Were the Splugorth supposed to be stopped/halted when they invaded Phase World?
The list goes on and on....
G