Rules on Creating a new O.C.C.?

[Cinos]

No formal rules exist to my knowledge, and given how classes exist in the game, I doubt great ones could be made, there's already a massive discrepancy between classes, both because they represent things in a world (which aren't always even), and vague rules which can lead to under or over powered options.

Best you can do is shoot from the hip and play test, play test, play test, and seek out real feedback from people willing to bash your writing into the ground. I think it was JuliusCreed who made some fairly good and not over the top / purely replacement classes, with any luck he could give some pointers too in a less jerk-like manner I would.

My personal rules for making them (which is a large process that takes me about a month of effort for one class -before- testing), is concept first (what they do, for example, I'll use a Warrior, versatile melee and short range fighter able to either dish melee damage, or tank it up for parties). Then, the rules, and how they develop, and what their weak points are. In this case (said warrior class), they have poor non-combat versatility, they get poor skill choices, limited mostly to military life skills (military, physical, and to maintain their skills), and most skills are at a much lower value then other classes. They also lack large versatility in their class specials. That's not to say they don't have any, but the thief ended up with social bonuses as a choice (calling in favors), evasion (dodge bonuses, stealth bonuses, vanishing, etc), and skill boosters for their class. Warrior ended up with things like Cleaving attacks, added damage to Power / Charge Attacks, damage reduction with shields, boosted SDC to armors, taunts and the like, all centered around combat.

Afterthought; Feel free to PM me if you do want to talk tool, just know I'm crass when talking tool, and won't hesitate to call stupid game design stupid

[drewkitty ~..~]

The average skill numbers is about 15-19.
If the OCC gives a lot of skills as OCC skills and OCCR skills then the class should only allow only a few secondary skills, and fewer level up skills.

If there are few OCC skills, then give more OCCR and 2ndary skills and more level up skills.

[Eryk Stormbright]

@Cinos - what about a hybrid class? Both melee and spell-caster ( not stronger than a pure melee class nor as powerful as a pure spell-caster class ), is that out of line? Also, I'm assuming this type of character would also lack in non-combat oriented skills?

There is a Half Wizard Class in MoM Pg. 69 if that helps you any.

[Cinos]

@Cinos - what about a hybrid class? Both melee and spell-caster ( not stronger than a pure melee class nor as powerful as a pure spell-caster class ), is that out of line? Also, I'm assuming this type of character would also lack in non-combat oriented skills?

It's not out of line by any means. It also depends on your setting use and how you view characters as a whole (For example, I disagree with the assertion that PC's should be better then the norm, and treat all NPC's the same as I would a player).

Splicing a Melee class with a casting class in PB using normal rules is a careful wire to walk from a design stand point, because fighter classes are already fairly lack luster, while casters can be very good, but also have limits of armor imposed on them (which can make them extremely volatile, prone to death, or spouts of uselessness if they get back spell fails, or super sweet if they get meaningless spell fails, like reduced durations on Fireball).

Cutting away skills, leaving them with fewer free Primary skills, and lower then average related skills is one way to go, along with a limited skill tree. Limiting how many spells they can have, or restricting the spells they may pick (like only combat related spells, only damage spells, etc) is a way to make them distinct from wizards. I'd also suggest speeding up and cutting range of spells, to make them more viable while engaged in melee combat (perhaps a choice to jack cost to make the spell instantly castable, perhaps with usage limitations, or forced damage when used, or stamina costs if you use housed stamina rules). Lowering range forces them into close combat, to promote the core idea of a melee mage, and also helps negate some of the benefits wizards have in long range combat.

However, Eryk Stormbright makes a good suggestion at looking at existing classes like the Half Wizard (Battle Magus also comes to mind, but they are quite powerful, toning them down some for PF could be an option though). War Mages in a Rifter would be another venue.

[Cinos]

Actually, another question. I identify as a Video Gamer ( since I was born and raised on them ), and have only been table-top RPG'ing for two years. Is it a faux paus to use a video game character class as a new o.c.c. provided it's within the bounds of the book?

Depends on the group, and how much you take from it. I've had plenty of characters, gear and ideas spawned from video games, movies and novels. I personally try to avoid getting too close to the mark (for various reasons not at all related with avoiding a faux paus). Adding something inspired by an outside source to me is fine (some may disagree), so long as it is -inspired by the setting- by the end of its creation. Fitting in nicely and homogeneously with the setting is the most important goal of anything in the game (class or not).

For example, I once ran a game including Material from FF7 (and later Espers). The former was done in a Palladium setting -but- I removed many of the other magic elements from the game (Summoners and Diabolists where more or less removed) because they no longer made sense with such a radically different take on magic. While the Espers where included with Rifts, which works more or less fine without major changes.

Another example includes Warriors within my incarnation of the rule set. Since I didn't feel them 'cool' enough to be really sweet at high levels, I opened up whole new realms of power to them. I justified this logic by stating that all beings use magic innately, though less obviously. Those who dedicate to being a fighter wholly slowly channel energy into their bodies, high level warriors can shatter trees with swings, or in one case, use a siege ladder as a melee weapon. However, without this stated change to the world; these abilities would make no sense and greatly detract from the setting as a whole.

Either way, you will find pureists who will decry them no matter how well inserted they are so long as one reference to the original remains.

As a note to the insight, I'm glad it's helpful, I rant about it enough, so I'll sum it up with, I've rewritten my version of PF already (an ongoing project) over the past 10 years with back and forth with my play test group, so it's something I'm used to at this point

[Shawn Merrow]

When I want to make a O.C.C. I try to find an existing one that is similar to what I want the new one like. I will use that as a template for creating the new one. Say I wanted to create a new scholar that is also given warrior training by a secret order. I would start with the scholar and pull a few skills and replace them with more combat orientated selections. I would have it start out with better hand to hand and reduce the secondary skills to compensate. A few changes here and there and its done. If you go that route its not that hard to make a new O.C.C. for your game.

[The Dark Elf]

When I want to make a O.C.C. I try to find an existing one that is similar to what I want the new one like. I will use that as a template for creating the new one. Say I wanted to create a new scholar that is also given warrior training by a secret order. I would start with the scholar and pull a few skills and replace them with more combat orientated selections. I would have it start out with better hand to hand and reduce the secondary skills to compensate. A few changes here and there and its done. If you go that route its not that hard to make a new O.C.C. for your game.

If the pen is mightier than the sword, would he have W.P. pen?

[drewkitty ~..~]

When I want to make a O.C.C. I try to find an existing one that is similar to what I want the new one like. I will use that as a template for creating the new one. Say I wanted to create a new scholar that is also given warrior training by a secret order. I would start with the scholar and pull a few skills and replace them with more combat orientated selections. I would have it start out with better hand to hand and reduce the secondary skills to compensate. A few changes here and there and its done. If you go that route its not that hard to make a new O.C.C. for your game.

If the pen is mightier than the sword, would he have W.P. pen?

They do, it is the writing skill.

[Shawn Merrow]

When I want to make a O.C.C. I try to find an existing one that is similar to what I want the new one like. I will use that as a template for creating the new one. Say I wanted to create a new scholar that is also given warrior training by a secret order. I would start with the scholar and pull a few skills and replace them with more combat orientated selections. I would have it start out with better hand to hand and reduce the secondary skills to compensate. A few changes here and there and its done. If you go that route its not that hard to make a new O.C.C. for your game.

If the pen is mightier than the sword, would he have W.P. pen?

[Cinos]

If the pen is mightier than the sword, would he have W.P. pen?

They do, it is the writing skill. [/quote]

Hmm, what's the critical bonus from WP Pen? If I use Death Blow with Writing, is it a good or bad story . . . ?

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. There's some good advice in this thread. I'm headed for bed soon so I'll keep this short. Someone else asked a similar question before and this was my response to them (so I try to include it when possible):

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=118051

You can read through that thread (if you're interested). It's only a few posts long (though a few of the posts are long). Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[The Dark Elf]

When I want to make a O.C.C. I try to find an existing one that is similar to what I want the new one like. I will use that as a template for creating the new one. Say I wanted to create a new scholar that is also given warrior training by a secret order. I would start with the scholar and pull a few skills and replace them with more combat orientated selections. I would have it start out with better hand to hand and reduce the secondary skills to compensate. A few changes here and there and its done. If you go that route its not that hard to make a new O.C.C. for your game.

If the pen is mightier than the sword, would he have W.P. pen?

They do, it is the writing skill.