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How not to be Poor in Rifts
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I'm not going to tell you how to make money in Rifts 'cuz that really deserves its own thread, but no matter what your earning power is, the key to not being poor is to control your expenses.

Armor:
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First off, there is no bigger scam in the game than armor and the repairing of it. If armor is your primary means of surviving MD attacks, it's going to cost you lots of money unless you can repair it yourself. The spell Mend The Broken lets you repair MDC for 1MDC per 30 PPE, but this is a very poor return on your PPE investment. Operators can probably do some armor repairs of their own, but I'm ignorant of how it works.

It's much better to have an alternative to armor that doesn't require cash to repair.

There are plenty of psychic and magic abilities for gaining MDC protection and the only cost is some PPE or ISP which will regenerate for free over time. Technowizard protection can give you even more efficient use of your PPE. If you depend on PPE/ISP or both defense and offense, you have to worry about over extending yourself which is why I prefer technological force fields as my primary source of MDC protection. They run off E-clips and have long durations.

But wait, E-clips cost money to recharge...which brings me to controllable expense #2...

Recharging E-clips:
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Disclaimer: Based on my Electrical Engineering background and common sense (well, we'll see), I've never made players pay to recharge their E-clips. There's nothing special about recharging a secondary cell if you have a power source and know the proper charging procedure (depends on the cell chemistry). From their high potential discharge rate, it seems clear that the E-clip is some sort of extremely advanced capacitor which means the charging procedure is as simple as knowing what cut-off voltage to use. In either case, the characters don't actually need to know this since the E-clip itself would need to provide output regulation anyways and any circuitry that can regulate output can be made to regulate input with a couple extra components, so any store would have a cheap adapter kit so that characters could recharge E-clips off their nuclear powered hover-cycle/power armor/whatever. Any character with some basic technical know-how could rig up their own charging adapter. Higher quality E-clips might come from the manufacturer with this capability as a selling point for product differentiation.

But if your GM won't listen to reason, here are some things you can do:
1. have a technowizard convert the power source of your weapon. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
2. get a weapon that uses some other power source like the Noro crystal weapons that charge from ISP
3. the spell Sub-Particle Acceleration allows you to recharge E-clips if you're careful. It's expensive on PPE, but will do in a pinch. It's a better use for the spell than actually using it in combat (unless your GM lets you use it to over-charge your opponent's E-clips which turns your opponent's own weapon into a bomb).
4. attempt to use weapons that don't require ammunition (most melee weapons, few ranged weapons).


And that's pretty much it. The best time to plan for taking advantage of these is at character generation. Tech players without psionics or magic are clearly at a disadvantage in this regard.

Perhaps others have advice that I missed.

--flatline

Or you could say to your GM, "Hey, for a change can we not be playing dirt-farmers turned mercenaries? I'd like to use some of the cool expensive stuff." And if the GM doesn't get with the program, find another one.

It's also a good idea to have an SDC firearm or crossbow sitting around to deal with things that don't need to be obliterated at the atomic scale. Bullets are amazingly cheap and bolts/arrows can be crafted fairly easily.

Well yeah, I did some calculations awhile back based on how much energy an E-clip should be storing based on references in various books. When it comes down to it, and eclip shouldn't be storing more than about the energy in a tank of gasoline at the most (which is one measuring stick, in a couple of books eclips are alternate power sources for some jetpacks and small vehicles, that provide roughly (+/-50%) the same range as gasoline powered engines in those vehicles).

Considering the cost of gas in the books (I think there is 1, or maybe 2 references to the price of gasoline) runs from 5-20 credits a gallon...you come out to between 50-200 credits per eclip in raw costs to recharge if you assume a gasoline powered generator. Nuclear, natural gas, etc powered sources should probably be cheaper per watt for charging.

So, there really is no good reason why book prices to recharge an eclip are 10-40x higher than the raw cost. When I GM (and I have basically forced the GM I play with occasionally) to go with 100 credits per eclip charge in civilized places (like Merc town) and 400 credits out in the boonies (where they might be running a gasoline generator to power their eclip charger, and might only be able to charge 2-4 eclips per day for you).

azazel1024 wrote:Well yeah, I did some calculations awhile back based on how much energy an E-clip should be storing based on references in various books. When it comes down to it, and eclip shouldn't be storing more than about the energy in a tank of gasoline at the most (which is one measuring stick, in a couple of books eclips are alternate power sources for some jetpacks and small vehicles, that provide roughly (+/-50%) the same range as gasoline powered engines in those vehicles).

CB1 states that an e-clip holds about as much energy as 1,000 car batteries.

Or .. you could find a holy terror and simply ask them to pump out enough of thier silver spikes so as to allow you to get anything you want hehe

flatline wrote:1. have a technowizard convert the power source of your weapon. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

What would be the viability of a technowizard device that converts free PPE into electricity? It seems like something that should definitely exist on Rifts Earth. Obviously the Coalition uses primarily fusion power for their cities, but more magically-inclined societies would probably seek magic solutions.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:Well yeah, I did some calculations awhile back based on how much energy an E-clip should be storing based on references in various books. When it comes down to it, and eclip shouldn't be storing more than about the energy in a tank of gasoline at the most (which is one measuring stick, in a couple of books eclips are alternate power sources for some jetpacks and small vehicles, that provide roughly (+/-50%) the same range as gasoline powered engines in those vehicles).

CB1 states that an e-clip holds about as much energy as 1,000 car batteries.

Just based on those numbers, that is roughly 300kw/hr-500kw/hr (~1,000-1,500MJ). The average car battery tends to have about 80-100 minutes reserve capacity at 20 amps (works out to 400wh give or take a little). Gasoline has an energy content of 34MJ per liter. That comes out to 30-50 liters of gasoline, or a small tank of gas. Of course that is pure energy, gasoline engines (today) aren't that effcient, about 30% or so. I suppose in the future they could be super efficient and be running up around 50% (I forget what Adkinson and Rankle cycle theoretical maxes are, but they are lower than stirling, which is about 50%).

So after doing that math, it actually comes roughly in line with backing up math I've done before, at least in the same ballpark.

PS Of course the question is, what is the measuring stick for the battery capacity? Its rated reserve capacity, which is at a 20 amp discharge? Its slow discharge capacity, which could easily be 30-80% higher at slow discharge rates, say 1-2amps? Or its high discharge rate, say 200amp where capacity might be 40-60% of its rated reserve capacity? Lead Acid batteries have lower capacities the faster you discharge them. Actual it holds for a lot of battery chemistries to the best of my knowledge, the higher the current drain, the lower the realized capacity of the cell/battery is due to increased internal resistance under high drains.

azazel1024 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:Well yeah, I did some calculations awhile back based on how much energy an E-clip should be storing based on references in various books. When it comes down to it, and eclip shouldn't be storing more than about the energy in a tank of gasoline at the most (which is one measuring stick, in a couple of books eclips are alternate power sources for some jetpacks and small vehicles, that provide roughly (+/-50%) the same range as gasoline powered engines in those vehicles).

CB1 states that an e-clip holds about as much energy as 1,000 car batteries.

Just based on those numbers, that is roughly 300kw/hr-500kw/hr (~1,000-1,500MJ). The average car battery tends to have about 80-100 minutes reserve capacity at 20 amps (works out to 400wh give or take a little). Gasoline has an energy content of 34MJ per liter. That comes out to 30-50 liters of gasoline, or a small tank of gas. Of course that is pure energy, gasoline engines (today) aren't that effcient, about 30% or so. I suppose in the future they could be super efficient and be running up around 50% (I forget what Adkinson and Rankle cycle theoretical maxes are, but they are lower than stirling, which is about 50%).

So after doing that math, it actually comes roughly in line with backing up math I've done before, at least in the same ballpark.

PS Of course the question is, what is the measuring stick for the battery capacity? Its rated reserve capacity, which is at a 20 amp discharge? Its slow discharge capacity, which could easily be 30-80% higher at slow discharge rates, say 1-2amps? Or its high discharge rate, say 200amp where capacity might be 40-60% of its rated reserve capacity? Lead Acid batteries have lower capacities the faster you discharge them. Actual it holds for a lot of battery chemistries to the best of my knowledge, the higher the current drain, the lower the realized capacity of the cell/battery is due to increased internal resistance under high drains.

It's the amount of energy that can be drained by the HU power "Energy Absorption" can drain with the Draining Touch.
Looking back over the book (the revised CB1, p. 49), the passage is:
"The character can drain the energy out of an item, like a car battery or energy pack, bu touching it. Maximum absorption capacity is one gigawatt per level. That's the rough equivalent of 10,000 car batteries or 10 E-Clips.

The thing where all my players make their money off is salvaged pistols and rifles, after everyone has decent rifles and pistols we just list how many, good,poor,and mint pistols and rifles they have in storage for sale and how many clips they have. Keeping track of every rifle model and such that isn't great is just a waste....usaly by lv 3 my players have a good million+ in trade goods go through their hands

Zamion138 wrote:The thing where all my players make their money off is salvaged pistols and rifles, after everyone has decent rifles and pistols we just list how many, good,poor,and mint pistols and rifles they have in storage for sale and how many clips they have. Keeping track of every rifle model and such that isn't great is just a waste....usaly by lv 3 my players have a good million+ in trade goods go through their hands

That's a good way to start. E-clips, rifles, and pistols are high value and easy to store and carry. If you have Mend the Broken, then you can improve the condition of damaged items to increase their resale value.

Even better if you can go some place where there are established markets for weapons (Phase World comes to mind, or Atlantis, if you're the type that can safely walk the streets there). But I realize that not every party has easy access to Dimensional Portal.

--flatline

What always makes me chucke though is when my pc's come to a small village with a trader and plop down a large sack of mdc pistols and vibo knives and ask for a fair to low price and get luaghed all the time.....small hamlets don't have 200k in trade value just laying around. They never rember this....gifting md weapons to villagers is always a good way to earn respect or help since your giving them the means to defend them selves so much better..... 50 wilks pistols popping off tends to disgurage raiders

This isn't helpful.
I was hoping there would be ways to make money in Rifts listed here.

Other than salvage of course, everyone knows how savy salvage is.

Slavery pays good, walk into a out of the way area with a hover truck, shoot the ugly and old throw said folks into back of truck fly south to pecos empire or east to coast to find splugorth traders.....you just made money. Hire attack team..have them come to the meet, have them disarm to meet the boss...throw them in the back of the truck fly south or east again.

get a counjourer, have him create some radio active stuff, leave it all over a town, leave.......come back loot...no one will be alive.
summon a unicorn, whack its horn off and.... well eat it i mean its magical horse meat gotta be kinda tasty... sell horn to alchemist.

cyber snatching looks prety profitable. and if you dont go after military souped up guys probaly pretty easy.
get your priest of darkness to cast blight over a farming area...come in as priests of light sell cure to problem for money.....just cancel your spell after you sleep with duaghters and eat all the food and steal things of gold and silver.

lead tolkeen refugees to a "safe areas and free lands"..... turn them in for rewards to the CS.

take rfid tags place in rifles...sell to outlaws...sell codes to authorities...
refill Eclips for people... swap out guts with single shot bats..... track guys down aftward and attack them with sustained fire at range....

do job placement for necromancers...hook them up with chop shops as an organ and medical waste disposal service....

[b]do work....get a pay check...[/b]

The do work get paycheck is a great idea if you are trying to survive but not if you are an independent adventurer group. You can earn anywhere between 40-90 credits a day. Have you seen how much it costs to fix armor?

In a way its a nice way of keeping my PC's thinking smart and careful of how they use their resources but I'd like to give them a chance to earn some legit cash without needing to sell peoples mothers into slavery or jack military equipment.

My group packs standard staples of existence for trade goods. Mostly in salt. It's dense, and you can pack a heck of a lot of it in the trunk of a car. Just think about what any town in the Old West would need, and invest in that.
Otherwise, we have a Psi-Tek for scavenging battle-damaged wrecks. We have also made a decent living selling nearly depleted nuclear power cells scavenged from powered armors as town power supplies.

by work i ment merc work or raiding or what ever their proffesion is.
and slavery is older than work so dont be anti history hehehehe
everything is relative to the alinment of the PC's

wyrmraker wrote:My group packs standard staples of existence for trade goods. Mostly in salt. It's dense, and you can pack a heck of a lot of it in the trunk of a car. Just think about what any town in the Old West would need, and invest in that.
Otherwise, we have a Psi-Tek for scavenging battle-damaged wrecks. We have also made a decent living selling nearly depleted nuclear power cells scavenged from powered armors as town power supplies.

Now THAT is more like it!

How much do you normally get per sale on the depleted nuclear packs?

Usually the power packs have 1-3 years remaining on them, so we sell them for the equivalent of 250,000 credits for well-equipped communities. For more impoverished places, we'll take a trade, usually in grain or meat. We're goodly aligned, so we're not really out for a serious profit, and we're not going to rip off regular farmers. Self-entitled city dwellers, on the other hand...

wyrmraker wrote:Usually the power packs have 1-3 years remaining on them, so we sell them for the equivalent of 250,000 credits for well-equipped communities. For more impoverished places, we'll take a trade, usually in grain or meat. We're goodly aligned, so we're not really out for a serious profit, and we're not going to rip off regular farmers. Self-entitled city dwellers, on the other hand...

Savvy. I like it.

Considering that we get them for practically nothing, it's a good gig. Also, we accept pay by communities to clean up battlefield sites to reclaim farmland. Considering the well-known hazard of nuclear power cells, we can offer our services pretty much anywhere outside of CS Territory. And we charge a quite nice rate, based on the wealth of the people hiring us.

Akashic Soldier wrote::(

This isn't helpful.
I was hoping there would be ways to make money in Rifts listed here.

Other than salvage of course, everyone knows how savy salvage is.

I happily make money AND adventure. I've a TW skyship (three masted clipper-ship style) with a few TW upgrades as per the rules, and I run cargo. SOMEONE has to get those CFT caps to the Pecos Empire. SOMEONE has to move food, fuel, and passengers around. If you're going somewhere interesting, then that's awesome. There's ALWAYS somewhere interesting on Rifts Earth. Add to which, if someone finds out that you're carting ammunition, medical supplies, juicer bio-comps and drugs, or whatever they happen to want, then the adventure of Rifts Earth finds YOU.

Naturally, all this dangerous work requires a fairly healthy injection of cash, which allows further upgrades to crew, sky ship, and equipment, as well as making my life on Rifts Earth rather comfortable indeed in my plush cabin below deck.

Money can be easy to make depending on your alignment.
I recommend watching the Anime "Desert Punk" if you want inspiration of how to make money as an Aberrant or Anarchist Merc.

Akashic Soldier wrote::(

This isn't helpful.
I was hoping there would be ways to make money in Rifts listed here.

Other than salvage of course, everyone knows how savy salvage is.

I had originally intended to create another thread on "How to get Rich", but there's no reason we can't talk about how to make money here in this thread.

#1 best way to make money: Dimension hopping
Every dimension has different markets. Items that are cheap in one market may be expensive in another. The value of high tech weapons has price parity between Rifts Earth and Phase World, so sell your weapons in the 3 Galaxies and either purchase them there or purchase trade goods that you can sell for a profit on Rifts Earth (or wherever).

If you can't do that...

#2 Choose your local markets
Don't buy or sell to the first guy meet who says he's a trader. Travel a lot and everywhere you go, learn about the local market. Make friends and contacts. Arrange buyers for goods before you have them so that you know the price ahead of time. Learn what kinds of things they sell so that if you find another market where demand is high for that type of good, you can take advantage of it.

--flatline

An old WEG supplement Tramp Freighters had good information on selling commodities among different markets. Highly recommended for any profit seeking merchant like games.

The best way is to sell spells. And don't be stingy about who you sell it to. In Rifts knowledge is power, and spells exemplify knowledge and power.

Operators are another money making class. Yeah they fix up team gear and whatnot. But they add to what you salvage, what you can barter and trade. Given enough time they can build tons of things.

And that leaves you to the ultimate killer of making
money - time. There is never enough to do what you want to accomplish.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:Well yeah, I did some calculations awhile back based on how much energy an E-clip should be storing based on references in various books. When it comes down to it, and eclip shouldn't be storing more than about the energy in a tank of gasoline at the most (which is one measuring stick, in a couple of books eclips are alternate power sources for some jetpacks and small vehicles, that provide roughly (+/-50%) the same range as gasoline powered engines in those vehicles).

CB1 states that an e-clip holds about as much energy as 1,000 car batteries.

Just based on those numbers, that is roughly 300kw/hr-500kw/hr (~1,000-1,500MJ). The average car battery tends to have about 80-100 minutes reserve capacity at 20 amps (works out to 400wh give or take a little). Gasoline has an energy content of 34MJ per liter. That comes out to 30-50 liters of gasoline, or a small tank of gas. Of course that is pure energy, gasoline engines (today) aren't that effcient, about 30% or so. I suppose in the future they could be super efficient and be running up around 50% (I forget what Adkinson and Rankle cycle theoretical maxes are, but they are lower than stirling, which is about 50%).

So after doing that math, it actually comes roughly in line with backing up math I've done before, at least in the same ballpark.

PS Of course the question is, what is the measuring stick for the battery capacity? Its rated reserve capacity, which is at a 20 amp discharge? Its slow discharge capacity, which could easily be 30-80% higher at slow discharge rates, say 1-2amps? Or its high discharge rate, say 200amp where capacity might be 40-60% of its rated reserve capacity? Lead Acid batteries have lower capacities the faster you discharge them. Actual it holds for a lot of battery chemistries to the best of my knowledge, the higher the current drain, the lower the realized capacity of the cell/battery is due to increased internal resistance under high drains.

It's the amount of energy that can be drained by the HU power "Energy Absorption" can drain with the Draining Touch.
Looking back over the book (the revised CB1, p. 49), the passage is:
"The character can drain the energy out of an item, like a car battery or energy pack, bu touching it. Maximum absorption capacity is one gigawatt per level. That's the rough equivalent of 10,000 car batteries or 10 E-Clips.

Not that I really expect PB to do their homework, but a gigawatt is not a measure of energy, it is a measure of power. However, even if they meant a gigaJOULE, that is the equivelent to about 1,000 car batteries, not 10,000 (off by a factor of 10). If they meant a gigawatt hour, than that is the equivelent to about 3,600 car batteries or a factor of more than a thousand.

I'd go more with 1,000 car batteries and 1 eclip and the stated, but slightly modified, 1 gigajoule. Its a some what more resonable number. Supposing it takes 1 melee action to do the drain, lets call it 3 seconds that is 333MW of power.

The average residential overhead power line carries a voltage of 4.6 of 33kv and typically they are around 0 wire gauge give or take some which gives you a maximum transmission amperage of about 150 amps for 0 gauge copper wire. So even with 33kv wires, you only have a max transmision power of about 5mw on a residential power line.

Now lets look at transmision power lines. Those big boys are much bigger. A big transmision line is going to be about 500-750mm^2 with a current carry capacity of 600-800amps at 110kv (there are some larger/higher voltage). So even on a big transmision line you have MAYBE 88mw of power running down the line to max it out.

So you are still drawing more power than a high voltage transmision line can possibly push.

Look at it from a generator stand point, a medium sized nuclear reactor puts out in the region of 150-300mw. So the super power would litterally let you nom on the hookup from a good sized nuclear reactor without batting an eye.

Just a wee bit more power than I think is resonable even for a super power.

azazel1024 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's the amount of energy that can be drained by the HU power "Energy Absorption" can drain with the Draining Touch.
Looking back over the book (the revised CB1, p. 49), the passage is:
"The character can drain the energy out of an item, like a car battery or energy pack, bu touching it. Maximum absorption capacity is one gigawatt per level. That's the rough equivalent of 10,000 car batteries or 10 E-Clips.

Not that I really expect PB to do their homework, but a gigawatt is not a measure of energy, it is a measure of power. However, even if they meant a gigaJOULE, that is the equivelent to about 1,000 car batteries, not 10,000 (off by a factor of 10). If they meant a gigawatt hour, than that is the equivelent to about 3,600 car batteries or a factor of more than a thousand.

Apparently they meant something that nets out as 10k car batteries.

It goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyways:

The fastest way to make money is to take expensive gear from people who have expensive gear. And then sell it.

--flatline

flatline wrote:It goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyways:

The fastest way to make money is to take expensive gear from people who have expensive gear. And then sell it.

--flatline

Yup.
Unfortunately, it's also the fastest way to make enemies.

If you have access to interdimensional travel, commerce would be another effective way.
Especially in combination.

In our campaign, the party ended up in conflict with the Xiticix from time to time, and amassed quite a bit of Xiticix weapons.
We held them in storage, and eventually gained the ability to reliably travel from Rifts Earth to the Palladium world.
So some of the PCs opened a store in Dweomer (Rifts Earth), and a shop in The Place Of Magic (Palladium), and would import alchemist enchanted weapons from Palladium for sale on Rifts Earth, and export Rifts Techno-wizardry to Palladium.
Kickstarting the process with the Xiticix weapons, which were too common and low-powered for the inhabitants of Rifts Earth to appreciate, but that sold pretty well in Palladium, where the 4000' range and 4d6 damage made them valuable weapons.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's the amount of energy that can be drained by the HU power "Energy Absorption" can drain with the Draining Touch.
Looking back over the book (the revised CB1, p. 49), the passage is:
"The character can drain the energy out of an item, like a car battery or energy pack, bu touching it. Maximum absorption capacity is one gigawatt per level. That's the rough equivalent of 10,000 car batteries or 10 E-Clips.

Not that I really expect PB to do their homework, but a gigawatt is not a measure of energy, it is a measure of power. However, even if they meant a gigaJOULE, that is the equivelent to about 1,000 car batteries, not 10,000 (off by a factor of 10). If they meant a gigawatt hour, than that is the equivelent to about 3,600 car batteries or a factor of more than a thousand.

Apparently they meant something that nets out as 10k car batteries.

Yeah, maybe. The ability to suck up enough power to black out a medium sized city still seems a might overkill/ridiculous.

azazel1024 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:It's the amount of energy that can be drained by the HU power "Energy Absorption" can drain with the Draining Touch.
Looking back over the book (the revised CB1, p. 49), the passage is:
"The character can drain the energy out of an item, like a car battery or energy pack, bu touching it. Maximum absorption capacity is one gigawatt per level. That's the rough equivalent of 10,000 car batteries or 10 E-Clips.

Not that I really expect PB to do their homework, but a gigawatt is not a measure of energy, it is a measure of power. However, even if they meant a gigaJOULE, that is the equivelent to about 1,000 car batteries, not 10,000 (off by a factor of 10). If they meant a gigawatt hour, than that is the equivelent to about 3,600 car batteries or a factor of more than a thousand.

Apparently they meant something that nets out as 10k car batteries.

Yeah, maybe. The ability to suck up enough power to black out a medium sized city still seems a might overkill/ridiculous.

Yet is a fairly common thing in super-hero comics and all the old monster movies. If it fed on electricity you couldn't find a monster that didn't feed on the power output requirements of a small city or more.

SamtheDagger wrote: (and when they cannot, you have a hovercycle).

Get a pushbike. Cheaper than a hovercycle, and for a juicer, they are faster.

Comrade Corsarius wrote:

SamtheDagger wrote: (and when they cannot, you have a hovercycle).

Get a pushbike. Cheaper than a hovercycle, and for a juicer, they are faster.

A bike is not faster than hover cycle... your bike can not go 300 mph over any terrian...I don't care what rule you find ....go ride your bike as fast as you can on a street......then go ride your bike as fast as you can on just a lawn......then go and try to use it on some sand or rocky areas....time yourself.....

Hover bike for the win.....
Back to the matter at hand

Rember though if you replace the loggers axes with vibo axes ....they are going to have a lot less work, so unintended consequences say you just made the logging company richer by getting the same amount ofproduct twice as fast...so half the work hours or half the number of loggers......not a principled thing to do...

Zamion138 wrote:

Comrade Corsarius wrote:

SamtheDagger wrote: (and when they cannot, you have a hovercycle).

Get a pushbike. Cheaper than a hovercycle, and for a juicer, they are faster.

A bike is not faster than hover cycle... your bike can not go 300 mph over any terrian...I don't care what rule you find ....go ride your bike as fast as you can on a street......then go ride your bike as fast as you can on just a lawn......then go and try to use it on some sand or rocky areas....time yourself.....

Okay, done.

And in real-world testing, I can ride my bike a LOT faster than I can ride my hoverbike.
How about you?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:

Comrade Corsarius wrote:

SamtheDagger wrote: (and when they cannot, you have a hovercycle).

Get a pushbike. Cheaper than a hovercycle, and for a juicer, they are faster.

A bike is not faster than hover cycle... your bike can not go 300 mph over any terrian...I don't care what rule you find ....go ride your bike as fast as you can on a street......then go ride your bike as fast as you can on just a lawn......then go and try to use it on some sand or rocky areas....time yourself.....

Okay, done.

And in real-world testing, I can ride my bike a LOT faster than I can ride my hoverbike.
How about you?

After taking my hover bike out the shed and cheking its nuke engine for radation leeks I took it on quick spin over some stuff....it ran just fine no speed varitaions I could not notice any speed variations on my trip...id have to say my hover bike wins...I took it up to only 200had mph mind you so I didn't bury the needle maybe at 600mph it would have been effected but I couldn't find my helmet and did not want to risk it

Zamion138 wrote:After taking my hover bike out the shed and cheking its nuke engine for radation leeks I took it on quick spin over some stuff....it ran just fine no speed varitaions I could not notice any speed variations on my trip...id have to say my hover bike wins...I took it up to only 200had mph mind you so I didn't bury the needle maybe at 600mph it would have been effected but I couldn't find my helmet and did not want to risk it

Okay I call Shenanigans on this...

1) You have a Hoverbike (They do exist, but highly suspect)
2) If you do, it has a Nuclear reactor for an engine (They are heavily regulated items, and the fact an individual would have a nuclear device inside personal property. The government would be knocking on your door)
3) You have a shed

the Black Market sourcebook will be the perfect guide for this kind of thing

You got me ....it was at my moms house I don't have a shed at my place

I looked for radiation leeks around my hoverbike too. All I found were radiation carrots and radishes. They do glow in an odd kind of way, though.

If you wish to discuss juicer bike vs hovercycle, I made a thread (speed demons) about it.

This thread is about making $$$ and my 'get a bike' was a joke. Hopefully this will put us back on topic.

*ahem* I, for one, strongly encourage anyone to adventure for money. After all, they need to pay someone to take them to far away places, to wait while they go and slay that nasty thing in that big hole, and cart all of their treasure and riches back again. The capacious hold and well-appointed cabins of my sky ship allows for adventurers of all types, and at very reasonable rates. It's how I (and my group) stay rich, but alive. I just have a list of things I don't touch or carry, and places I don't go to without the blessing of an elder dragon/powerful AI/god (proof of deity required upon discussion of credentials).

Just make sure you don't save lives for free - if you save someone tell them they owe you 20k, if they don't like it, shoot them until they do.

Give your Cyborgs PW tech, Nanomachine Self-Repair System (Pw-Cyberai).
Tie you Cyborg Force Field into your cyborg powersource or get a seperare power-cell for it.
Give your cyborg Energy weapons with built-in power source option.

Why, you Cyborg repairs itself for Free, Force Field replinishes for free, gives you unlimited payload weapons for free.

Also try this one...
BE A DRAGON !!!

Even better yet, be a god!

flatline wrote:How not to be Poor in Rifts
=====================

I'm not going to tell you how to make money in Rifts 'cuz that really deserves its own thread, but no matter what your earning power is, the key to not being poor is to control your expenses.

Armor:
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First off, there is no bigger scam in the game than armor and the repairing of it. If armor is your primary means of surviving MD attacks, it's going to cost you lots of money unless you can repair it yourself.

It's not a scam so much as an expensive procedure, but I agree that it's a HUGE economic factor.
-The best way to avoid armor repair bills is to avoid getting shot in the first place. Granted, it's bound to happen some time, but you should never enter battle with the plan that the enemy is going to shoot you.
-Also, it's good to have a naturally MDC character that can bio-regenerate.

The spell Mend The Broken lets you repair MDC for 1MDC per 30 PPE, but this is a very poor return on your PPE investment.

With plated MDC armor, that means you're spending 30 PPE in order to save 700 credits.
That's not horrible- that's a week's wage for a lot of people.

Operators can probably do some armor repairs of their own, but I'm ignorant of how it works.

The Field Armorer skill allows you to repair up to 20 MDC to body armor, assuming that you have the proper equipment and presumably the appropriate MDC scrap materials.
Other skills, such as Weapons Engineer allow for repairing body armor, but again, appropriate equipment and materials would be required.
And that's where the crucial part of the equation comes in, the question of what exactly constitutes "proper equipment and materials" for body armor repair.

For some people, all you need is a Laser Torch.
These are the people who are baffled by the cost of armor and armor repairs.

Personally, look at the text (SB1r, p, 36, for example):
The Black Market, Northern Gun, Manistique, Titan Robotics, Merctown, many 'Burbs, and most tech-oriented communities offer repairs of body armor, power armor and robotics. Still, availability is fairly limited, the level of quality and cost varies, and one might have to travel hundreds and hundreds of miles to get somewhere that can do the work. A good rule of thumb is if the community can provide bionic services or sells robots and/or power armor, they can repair Mega-Damage armor and robots.
Not always, but often.

To me, this pretty clearly indicates that armor repair is not something that just any Operator can perform with his laser torch and some MDC scrap from destroyed enemies. If it was, then repairs would be cheaper and much, much more readily available.
But in canon, armor repair is something found in a limited number of places.
Even places that deal with bionics and robots/power armor can not necessarily perform repairs on basic MDC body armor.
To me, this indicates that a full shop and/or specialty equipment and materials are required.
Which means that field repairs using improvised means and materials are not very effective at all.

It's much better to have an alternative to armor that doesn't require cash to repair.

Absolutely!
The Naruni force fields are good for that, as are amulets or talismans of Armor of Ithan or other magical protection.
Likewise, seeking cover behind a MDC companion (the party dragon, or a MDC mount) that can bio-regenerate can protect your armor from immediate damage.
For that matter, any kind of cover is pretty good.

Also, stuff to provide concealment. Smoke grenades, for example. Stuff to make it harder to hit you.

Recharging E-clips:
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Disclaimer: Based on my Electrical Engineering background and common sense (well, we'll see), I've never made players pay to recharge their E-clips. There's nothing special about recharging a secondary cell if you have a power source and know the proper charging procedure (depends on the cell chemistry).

You don't have anything similar in the real world to compare with Rifts E-Clips.
They hold the power of 1,000 car batteries in something the size of your hand or smaller.
They can explode for massive damage if overloaded.
We have zero information on what exactly is involved in packing that much power into such a small package.
You seem to be assuming that it works the same way as a modern battery or capacitor, but the fact is that this is futuristic technology that may well not resemble anything that we're familiar with today, other than in basic similarity in function.

In a vacuum, the kind of assumption that you are making is not unreasonable, but we are not in a vacuum.
We have facts to deal with, and these facts do not fit the conclusion that you have come to.
E-Clip recharging costs CR1200-CR1500 (RUE259) on the black market.
An Operator with the proper equipment can perform a recharge for CR800.
That's a lot of money for an expert in his field using the proper equipment, unless there's a lot of skill and learning that goes into the procedure.
That's nearly half a month's wages for a CS Grunt (CR1,700 per month).
A "Good" monthly salary for a mercenary line soldier is CR1,600 (Mercenaries, p. 18), so once again, that's a half-month's salary just to recharge an e-clip, using the cheapest market price for a single recharge.
That kind of cost does not support the notion that e-clips are easy and/or simple to recharge, even if you have the right equipment.

here are some things you can do:
1. have a technowizard convert the power source of your weapon. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

This was one of, if not THE, primary advantages of Techno-Wizards in the original Rifts book.
In RUE, nothing is mentioned about Techno-Wizards having this ability. I do not know if this is an omission of negligence or of deliberation.
Even then, of course, you cannot use a TW-Converted weapon if you're a normal person, unless you learned the ability as a child, or unless the Techno-Wizard also builds in the ability for the device to be used by normal people.

2. get a weapon that uses some other power source like the Noro crystal weapons that charge from ISP

Yup.

3. the spell Sub-Particle Acceleration allows you to recharge E-clips if you're careful. It's expensive on PPE, but will do in a pinch. It's a better use for the spell than actually using it in combat (unless your GM lets you use it to over-charge your opponent's E-clips which turns your opponent's own weapon into a bomb).
4. attempt to use weapons that don't require ammunition (most melee weapons, few ranged weapons).

It's a munchy disaster of a spell, IMO, but in canon you are correct that it's a cheap and easy way to recharge e-clips.

Tech players without psionics or magic are clearly at a disadvantage in this regard.

Yes, if they're on their own.
One of the nice things about being a CS Grunt, though, is that they provide armor repairs and e-clip recharging, which is a HUGE advantage if you play by the rules as written.
Likewise, large mercenary groups and certain armies/militias can provide the same services.
So if you're a small fish, you might as well be a remorah, and survive by living off of a bigger fish's leavings.


But the main thing is, just use good strategy.

-Never play an ace where a deuce will do, and never use MDC ammunition where SDC ammo will get the job done.
There are a lot of creatures who are vulnerable to SDC attacks (especially if the GM uses the original monster generation tables from the back of the Rifts book).
Just having the skill Lore: Demons & Monsters can save you a lot of money, if you use it, and if you keep the proper gear.
That silver knife in your belt might save you thousands of credits worth of ammunition.
That SDC flamethrower might be a more cost-efficient weapon than that plasma ejector.
And so on.

-Assess encounters properly.
If you're about to battle a pack of demons, and nobody's paying you for the job, you're about to lose some money unless you do things very, very well.
If you get hit for only 10 MD in the course of a battle, you're out CR7,000 if you're wearing MDC plate armor of any kind, and that's not counting the ammunition you used to kill the enemy.
5 PCs get hit for only 10 MD each, and now the party is down CR35,000, plus ammunition loss.
Because most demons don't carry much in the way of loot.
Now is the time to think about why exactly you're getting into this particular battle at this particular time.
If it's to save a bus of blind orphans, then you gotta do what you gotta do... but if it's just because they're demons and because you're adventurers, then you might want to rethink things, and to consider calling for reinforcements, finding a local town and seeing if they'll hire you for the job, waiting for a more opportune time when you can ambush them successfully without taking a hit, tipping off the CS then leaving the area, or some other plan that will not leave you CR35,000 in the hole.

-Don't get shot.
Or stabbed, or bitten, or otherwise get your armor damaged.
Ambush, dodge, retreat, surrender, find cover, use concealment, and otherwise use the same tactics and strategies that people use in combat or potential combat in the real world in order to avoid getting shot.
Granted, it's not always going to work out, but you should always TRY to not get shot.
Any plan which includes you getting shot is, as a rule, a bad idea.
There may be exceptions, but those are the exceptions.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The spell Mend The Broken lets you repair MDC for 1MDC per 30 PPE, but this is a very poor return on your PPE investment.

With plated MDC armor, that means you're spending 30 PPE in order to save 700 credits.
That's not horrible- that's a week's wage for a lot of people.

What I meant was that 30 PPE to repair 1 MDC is way way way less economical than using the PPE to create magical MDC protection to prevent your armor from getting damaged in the first place. Even first level Armor of Ithan gives you 1 MDC per 1 PPE.

If your armor does get damaged, using Mend The Broken at a rate of 30 PPE per 1 MDC is still faster and more convenient than finding someone to do the repair for you. Assuming, of course, you have the PPE.

--flatline

Zamion138 wrote:You got me ....it was at my moms house I don't have a shed at my place

I knew it!

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The spell Mend The Broken lets you repair MDC for 1MDC per 30 PPE, but this is a very poor return on your PPE investment.

With plated MDC armor, that means you're spending 30 PPE in order to save 700 credits.
That's not horrible- that's a week's wage for a lot of people.

What I meant was that 30 PPE to repair 1 MDC is way way way less economical than using the PPE to create magical MDC protection to prevent your armor from getting damaged in the first place. Even first level Armor of Ithan gives you 1 MDC per 1 PPE.

Agreed!
Mend the Broken is something that you do between battles, in your down-time.
Armor of Ithan is something that you do right before or during battle.

I love the suggestions of salvaging Nuclear Power Packs from Armors, Robots, and vehicles. I salvaged one last night from a downed samas.

I am gonna Up the ante though...

Last night we were in game and supperior to the coalition force we fought. One of our characters used a huge spell and basically formed a river of lava beneath the convoy. The skelbots got whiped out along with the officers. At that point the grunts inside a MarkIV EPC Surrandered. So...We took the whole vehicle. The CS Grunts can walk home

We are dimmensionaly hopping so will probably sell it at some point for other items. not too bad for a days work. not lots of exp... but the cash will help out.