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Do firearms, as in guns, rifles, bazookas, etc.. get a characters P.P. bonus to strike?
This question came up recently and I am looking for a ruling on this. Normally in my years of GMing and Playing, I have not used/added said PP bonus to strike with modern firearms, but someone elses thoughts on the matter made me pause and question my thought on the matter.

If P.P. bonus SPECIFICALLY IN HEROES UNLIMITED does adds to modern firearms, please quote book [and version/edition if applicable] and page #.

If P.P. bonus SPECIFICALLY IN HEROES UNLIMITED does NOT adds to modern firearms, please quote book [and version/edition if applicable] and page #.

Rappanui wrote:I tell you when it DOES get Added.
Splicers and Palladium Fantasy (where modern weapons are rare unless you're a specific character class, and then it is NEVER applied on burst shots, it's only for single aimed shots
like say, Blunderbusses and what not.

I am aware of the rules in those systems. However I am looking specifically for HEROES UNLIMITED.

As far as I have ever seen, no, PP bonuses do not, just like pretty much every other PB game. (barring splicers and fantasy)

Do I THINK they should? yes.

After having read the modern weapon combat rules in HU2 pg 75. It specifically states do not use hth bonuses. But does not in any passage in that section forbid the use of PP bonuses.
But on pg 79 it states that pp bonuses do not apply to modern weapon combat.

Damian Magecraft wrote:After having read the modern weapon combat rules in HU2 pg 75. It specifically states do not use hth bonuses. But does not in any passage in that section forbid the use of PP bonuses.
But on pg 79 it states that pp bonuses do not apply to modern weapon combat.

Thank You DM

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:After having read the modern weapon combat rules in HU2 pg 75. It specifically states do not use hth bonuses. But does not in any passage in that section forbid the use of PP bonuses.
But on pg 79 it states that pp bonuses do not apply to modern weapon combat.

Thank You DM

NP.
It could be argued that the rule on pg 79 applies only to robot and assault vehicles since it is only found in that section. However the impetus of the rule applying in other modern/futuristic settings by palladium would say otherwise.

I just had to make a ruling on this in DOANE. Hmmm...

PP bonuses should never apply to firearm combat. The only way you get the bonus is if you are using your fists or some type of melee weapon.

Why shouldn't they? (Aside from the fact the rules say so)

By the RAW you do not add them but PP is just as much eye hand coordination as it is physical dexterity.

Shouldn't John Doe with a PP of 22 and 5th level in WP Handgun be better than Joe Shmo with a PP of 10 and 5th level in Handgun? I think so. I am not saying add HTH bonuses just PP bonuses.

jaymz wrote:Why shouldn't they? (Aside from the fact the rules say so)

By the RAW you do not add them but PP is just as much eye hand coordination as it is physical dexterity.

Shouldn't John Doe with a PP of 22 and 5th level in WP Handgun be better than Joe Shmo with a PP of 10 and 5th level in Handgun? I think so. I am not saying add HTH bonuses just PP bonuses.

not to mention if you allow PP bonuses to count with modern weapons you do not need to use or remember the silly -10/-5 rule

Damian Magecraft wrote:

jaymz wrote:Why shouldn't they? (Aside from the fact the rules say so)

By the RAW you do not add them but PP is just as much eye hand coordination as it is physical dexterity.

Shouldn't John Doe with a PP of 22 and 5th level in WP Handgun be better than Joe Shmo with a PP of 10 and 5th level in Handgun? I think so. I am not saying add HTH bonuses just PP bonuses.

not to mention if you allow PP bonuses to count with modern weapons you do not need to use or remember the silly -10/-5 rule

I don't use it anyway. I've watched way too many sci-fi and action movies where the heroes dodge bullets and energy blasts all the time

Severus Snape wrote:I just had to make a ruling on this in DOANE. Hmmm...

PP bonuses should never apply to firearm combat. The only way you get the bonus is if you are using your fists or some type of melee weapon.

I agree with 99% of that. I allow P.P. bonuses with Archery/Bows/Targeting/Thrown and any "combat ability/move" provided by a given weapon [ie: P.P. bonus to "entangle" when using chain weapons].

On a slightly related note, I tend to allow the P.P. bonus to entangle, disarm, maintain balance, etc...

To offset that, I use the Ranged Combat rules found in Rifter #30, pgs: 36, 37, 44, 45 & 46. [a lot from that issue is good stuff]
Also: Rifter #11, pg 17 "Ranged Combat Rules"

Just because you can do a backflip doesn't mean you have hand and eye coordination and
steady hand to fire a gun. Watch the t.V. show Top Shot. Do anyone of those people look like
their acrobats, gymnasts, or have P.P. like a certain web head, a man with no fear, or a
teleporting demon? You can be 70 years old a be a dead shot marksman but have the agility
of a semi-truck on flat tires.

Reagren Wright wrote:Just because you can do a backflip doesn't mean you have hand and eye coordination and
steady hand to fire a gun. Watch the t.V. show Top Shot. Do anyone of those people look like
their acrobats, gymnasts, or have P.P. like a certain web head, a man with no fear, or a
teleporting demon? You can be 70 years old a be a dead shot marksman but have the agility
of a semi-truck on flat tires.

Good thing having a high PP doesn't actually make you better gymnast or acrobat in Palladium games then eh?

EDIT - Also you you don't have to be an excellent gymnast to be an excellent swordsman yet PP ads to that.

It is of course very contradictory.

Page 79 does say
"Bonuses to strike can be gained by skills, such as hand to hand combat and/or robot combat and/or from a high Physical Prowess (P.P.) attribute. All Bonuses are accumulative". Sounds Pretty Clear "Remember, bonuses from robot combat apply only when a robot is being piloted."Ok. "This bonus does not apply to missle related combat and P.P. bonuses do not apply to modern weapons" why did it have to contradict itself just two sentences down!

I have always assumed that when they said "modern weapons" they meant it in the context of "Robot & Assault Vehile Combat". You don't get to use your P.P. bonus when your firing a tanks main cannon, or a shoulder mounted plasma cannon. I don't think the intention was to place the rules for personal firearms under the Robot's section. So I'd rather emphasise the actually section dealing with fire arms.

Page 75 offers us
"This skill provides special bonuses to strike when using that weapon". "Do not add this strike bonus to your character's hand to hand skill, it applies only to use of modern weapons..."

These lines may seem to proclude the use of P.P. or other strike bonuses, but I don't think so. I personally think it is a reminder not to add your W.P. Rifle to your Strike bonus all the time, after all it is a special bonus that "only applies to that weapon".

The last thing worth noting [that I see at the moment] is also on page 75. Last paragraph on the right hand side. "Characters with no W.P. skills in that type of weapon can shoot bursts from it, but all shots are -6 to strike, and no other strike bonuses apply, not even P.P. attribute bonuses."

Why go out of your way to tell people that they can't use the P.P attribute bonus on a wild burst, if you never intended that anyone get that bonus ever? I think the implication goes with the standard rule that "all applicable bonuses stack".

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After all those mental gynastic to justify my position. I can understand and adapt to which ever interpertation the GM wants to use. . . But personally I want the bonuses. After all those super-punks get to use their Physical Prowess while shooting lasers from their butts, I want my gun totters to have the same playing field!

I can not tell you for sure, but I always assumed PP did count on all attacks.

In my opinion PP bonuses should apply to modern weapons combat. As the rules stand now it is purely a matter of training. So under the rules as they stand now Stephen Hawkings and Michael J. Fox are just as good a shot as Bob Munden and Jerry Miculik.

"Physical Prowess: Shows the degree of Dexterity and Agility of a character." Where is that shown in combat with modern weapons?

I found the official, canon answer to this question.

Heroes Unlimited : Game Masters Guide - page: 204, 2nd column, 1st paragraph.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:I found the official, canon answer to this question.

Heroes Unlimited : Game Masters Guide - page: 204, 2nd column, 1st paragraph.

Which says exactly what, for anyone who happens not to have the book?

PP bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons.

jaymz wrote:PP bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons.

Which you'd really have to wonder why, not like aiming a modern weapon is any different than a crossbow or trying to hit something with any other ranged weapon.

Nightmask wrote:

jaymz wrote:PP bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons.

Which you'd really have to wonder why, not like aiming a modern weapon is any different than a crossbow or trying to hit something with any other ranged weapon.

Wonder away. NMI was looking for the canon answer and that's the answer.

Ironically, I am normally apt to play the game by the book, but after the discussions I have had on the subject, potential submitted material, etc... I am starting to lean towards the "PP bonus should add to most firearms". I say most, because would it really matter what you PP is when firing a M60 on full auto? or launching a man-portable Stinger missile system?

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Ironically, I am normally apt to play the game by the book, but after the discussions I have had on the subject, potential submitted material, etc... I am starting to lean towards the "PP bonus should add to most firearms". I say most, because would it really matter what you PP is when firing a M60 on full auto? or launching a man-portable Stinger missile system?

Easy fix is to say it applies to small arms (rifles, pistols, crossbows and the likes) and not heavy weapons or missile systems.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Ironically, I am normally apt to play the game by the book, but after the discussions I have had on the subject, potential submitted material, etc... I am starting to lean towards the "PP bonus should add to most firearms". I say most, because would it really matter what you PP is when firing a M60 on full auto? or launching a man-portable Stinger missile system?

That would depend on how you are using to M60, are you using it as a mounted weapon? are you using it as a handheld weapon? if you are using it handheld are you using it like the SEALs which is like a rifle? The 5.56 LMG and 7.62 GPMG as used by the modern military is as a high capacity, high rate of fire rifle.

Mounted weapons such as the .30 cal and .50 cal machine guns rely less on the shooters skill and more on a high rate of fire. Fixed weapons strictly rely on maneuvering the vehicle or turet to hit its target.

The Stinger is a fire and forget missile system that relies on internal hardware and programing and not the skill of the shooter.

Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

heavy weapons like an M60 would probably need a high ps to allow a bonus to strike since you can man handle the weapon to stay on target longer.

jaymz wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

heavy weapons like an M60 would probably need a high ps to allow a bonus to strike since you can man handle the weapon to stay on target longer.

I agree.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

heavy weapons like an M60 would probably need a high ps to allow a bonus to strike since you can man handle the weapon to stay on target longer.

I agree.

The Seals train to fire the M60E3 from the shoulder in short burst (3-5 rounds). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzsPqUKnKU)

The M60 has for the most part been relegated to a vehicle mounted weapon. It has been replaced by the M240 7.62x51 MMG and the M249 5.56 SAW.

I was using the limiting factor of 7.62x51 GPMGs or less as a factor for shoulder fired Machine guns as weapons for adding PP.

Do you think the .950 JDJ (http://minx.cc/?post=326408) rifle would be too heavy to fire off handed?

Since we are talking about people with better that normal PPs and PSs in the first place using human average (10-13) as normal.

I recently went through a similar discussion with the group I play with concerning a GEO Front Gun Masters and Machine guns. We came to the conclusion that if a normal person can shoulder it and fire it like a rifle the Gun Master can use it. Which put the top end at the M60E3/E4, M240.

SpiritInterface wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

heavy weapons like an M60 would probably need a high ps to allow a bonus to strike since you can man handle the weapon to stay on target longer.

I agree.

The Seals train to fire the M60E3 from the shoulder in short burst (3-5 rounds). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzsPqUKnKU)

The M60 has for the most part been relegated to a vehicle mounted weapon. It has been replaced by the M240 7.62x51 MMG and the M249 5.56 SAW.

I was using the limiting factor of 7.62x51 GPMGs or less as a factor for shoulder fired Machine guns as weapons for adding PP.

Do you think the .950 JDJ (http://minx.cc/?post=326408) rifle would be too heavy to fire off handed?

Since we are talking about people with better that normal PPs and PSs in the first place using human average (10-13) as normal.

I recently went through a similar discussion with the group I play with concerning a GEO Front Gun Masters and Machine guns. We came to the conclusion that if a normal person can shoulder it and fire it like a rifle the Gun Master can use it. Which put the top end at the M60E3/E4, M240.

That is great that someone [Gun Master] or whoever can use a given weapon, however that does not mean they should or could get their P.P. bonus.
As for the Gun Master - Stingers is typically fired from shoulder - should a gun master be able to use it? Rocket Launchers too... Of course, in this thread I am specifically asking about the environment known as Heroes Unlimited and not Rifts where the Gun Master is from. Though the Gun Master would make a great Hero or Villain PC/NPC

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

My argument for allowing it stems not from how well trained or from any "real world" stance.
I just ask that you consider it from this perspective before making a decision.
Its from the KIS (keep it simple) perspective.
PP counts with all weapons except modern/future/
To off set the excessive ability of many characters to easily dodge Modern/Future weapons an additional rule had to be created. (-10 dodge)
That rule carries multiple exception that are to be applied in very specific circumstances.
By allowing PP to count towards Modern/Future hand held weapons it standardizes the rules and allows one to eliminate the tacked on rule and its exceptions (and equals out to roughly the same effect) thus simplifying the mechanics and ease with which new comers to the mechanics can learn them.

so ends my one; only; and best argument for allowing PP bonuses to apply to modern/future weapons.
Do with it what you will.

IF any UNTRAINED person can pick up a Sword, Bow, Crossbow and get their PP Bonus ... So Should an Untrained person using a Handgun or Rifle. Period.

High PP + WP Skill = Greatness

High PP individuals might be considered the "Naturals" when it comes to Firearms, and Bows, etc...

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Sorry Spirit, but I dont care how one is trained, but P.P. bonus is not going to come into play when firing a M60 - bipod/tripod/fire from the hip, whatever. That is my opinion.

My argument for allowing it stems not from how well trained or from any "real world" stance.
I just ask that you consider it from this perspective before making a decision.
Its from the KIS (keep it simple) perspective.
PP counts with all weapons except modern/future/
To off set the excessive ability of many characters to easily dodge Modern/Future weapons an additional rule had to be created. (-10 dodge)
That rule carries multiple exception that are to be applied in very specific circumstances.
By allowing PP to count towards Modern/Future hand held weapons it standardizes the rules and allows one to eliminate the tacked on rule and its exceptions (and equals out to roughly the same effect) thus simplifying the mechanics and ease with which new comers to the mechanics can learn them.

so ends my one; only; and best argument for allowing PP bonuses to apply to modern/future weapons.
Do with it what you will.

Actually, it is -4 dodge firearms and such in HU. Not -10

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:That is great that someone [Gun Master] or whoever can use a given weapon, however that does not mean they should or could get their P.P. bonus.
As for the Gun Master - Stingers is typically fired from shoulder - should a gun master be able to use it? Rocket Launchers too... Of course, in this thread I am specifically asking about the environment known as Heroes Unlimited and not Rifts where the Gun Master is from. Though the Gun Master would make a great Hero or Villain PC/NPC

In the HU2 setting it would be the Hardware Weapons master who gets a broader range of weapons and not the Gun Master.

Concerning your argument about the Stinger, 1) it is a fire and forget missile that depends on internal hardware and software to strike its target, 2) Missiles are specifically forbidden. I think you want to use a RPG or LAWS rocket as your example of a hand held shoulder launched missile. The reason that they give against machine guns is accuracy.

My main problem with not allowing PP is that currently under the system a character with a 4 PP shooting a pistol or rifle hits just as well as a character with a 26 PP.

SpiritInterface wrote:In the HU2 setting it would be the Hardware Weapons master who gets a broader range of weapons and not the Gun Master.

Yes this is true, but you specifically brought up and mentioned Gun Master.

Regardless of what weapon or weapon system YOU want to talk about, certain weapons, regardless of what anyone thinks should not benefit from a high PP. An M60 or similar - I dont care how well trained you are, you should not get a bonus from your PP.. this is just one example.

All in all, I found the book answer for what I needed. Thank you.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:In the HU2 setting it would be the Hardware Weapons master who gets a broader range of weapons and not the Gun Master.

Yes this is true, but you specifically brought up and mentioned Gun Master.

Regardless of what weapon or weapon system YOU want to talk about, certain weapons, regardless of what anyone thinks should not benefit from a high PP. An M60 or similar - I dont care how well trained you are, you should not get a bonus from your PP.. this is just one example.

All in all, I found the book answer for what I needed. Thank you.

I had mentioned that I had gone through a similar debate with the Gun masters.

In HU2 don't get PP bonuses to strike no matter what and bonuses to strike are based solely on WP and Level.

SpiritInterface wrote:In HU2 don't get PP bonuses to strike no matter what and bonuses to strike are based solely on WP and Level.

This I know.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:In HU2 don't get PP bonuses to strike no matter what and bonuses to strike are based solely on WP and Level.

This I know.

That is the part that makes no sense. The fact that a character with a PP of 4 but is level 8 with WP semi-auto rifle is a better shot that a character who has a 26 PP and WP semi-auto-rifle but is level 1.

So if Stephen Hawkings and Michael J. Fox were level 8 and Bob Munden and Jerry Miculik were level 1 they would beat them in a competition.

SpiritInterface wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:In HU2 don't get PP bonuses to strike no matter what and bonuses to strike are based solely on WP and Level.

This I know.

That is the part that makes no sense. The fact that a character with a PP of 4 but is level 8 with WP semi-auto rifle is a better shot that a character who has a 26 PP and WP semi-auto-rifle but is level 1.

So if Stephen Hawkings and Michael J. Fox were level 8 and Bob Munden and Jerry Miculik were level 1 they would beat them in a competition.

spirit...
its a game mechanic...
that kind of logic has no business in it.
Extremes are just that...
and few systems can survive the rules taken to extremes.

Rappanui wrote:with sharpshooting skill You get to add some bonuses due to to PP, And all the Modern Weapon Character heroes get this skill. so you don't need to give it to every tom dick and Sally with just normal gun training.

Sorry Rappanui but Sharpshooting in in HU2 does not give you any bonuses to strike.

I think he is talking the special ability of the Hardware: Weapons class and a fer other classes...but would need to look up whether it gives a PP based strike bonus.

AlanGunhouse wrote:I think he is talking the special ability of the Hardware: Weapons class and a fer other classes...but would need to look up whether it gives a PP based strike bonus.

It doesn't it only gives you bonuses to Initiative and some trick shots.

I voted no but I think it should
A steady hand/eye coordination counts for something. So I add PP/10. A PP 30 adds +3
Thrown weapons the same thing +Spd/10

KillWatch wrote:....
Thrown weapons the same thing +Spd/10

Uhm, why would "thrown" weapons like an axe or throwing blades or a spear benefit from ones Speed attribute?

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

KillWatch wrote:....
Thrown weapons the same thing +Spd/10

Uhm, why would "thrown" weapons like an axe or throwing blades or a spear benefit from ones Speed attribute?

running throw?

I take Spd as over all, which sometimes palladium does and does not. The faster something is coming at you the less time you have to react or are we not looking at the -10 rule anymore

KillWatch wrote:I take Spd as over all, which sometimes palladium does and does not. The faster something is coming at you the less time you have to react or are we not looking at the -10 rule anymore

Your post makes it seem as if "thrown items get a bonus to strike of +spd/10
And in Heroes, there is no "-10" rule. It is "-4"

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

KillWatch wrote:I take Spd as over all, which sometimes palladium does and does not. The faster something is coming at you the less time you have to react or are we not looking at the -10 rule anymore

Your post makes it seem as if "thrown items get a bonus to strike of +spd/10
And in Heroes, there is no "-10" rule. It is "-4"

not only that but SPD has never been used for anything but how fast you can run in one minute.....

jaymz wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

KillWatch wrote:I take Spd as over all, which sometimes palladium does and does not. The faster something is coming at you the less time you have to react or are we not looking at the -10 rule anymore

Your post makes it seem as if "thrown items get a bonus to strike of +spd/10
And in Heroes, there is no "-10" rule. It is "-4"

not only that but SPD has never been used for anything but how fast you can run in one minute.....

I have gamed with "KillWatch" a few times in real life. A decent guy he is. However his houserules equate to an entire rewrite of the PB / HU system. I think it boiled down to 3, maybe 4 binders each as thick as the HU2 corebook.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

KillWatch wrote:I take Spd as over all, which sometimes palladium does and does not. The faster something is coming at you the less time you have to react or are we not looking at the -10 rule anymore

Your post makes it seem as if "thrown items get a bonus to strike of +spd/10
And in Heroes, there is no "-10" rule. It is "-4"

not only that but SPD has never been used for anything but how fast you can run in one minute.....

I have gamed with "KillWatch" a few times in real life. A decent guy he is. However his houserules equate to an entire rewrite of the PB / HU system. I think it boiled down to 3, maybe 4 binders each as thick as the HU2 corebook.

ok
TMNT: Spd gives dodge bonus
-10 to dodge bullets, because they are fast, not because they are agile. but I know this is an optional rule
and I was just saying what I do. Being agile, to me, does not convey speed. Which, depending on what book and what else you are looking at Palladium does or does not believe, looking at XSpd (+1 attack, +1 Initiative, +2 Strike, +3 Parry etc) which is only "Spd" power. Sonic Speed fortunately does not give these bonuses (I+6, S+1, P+3, Auto Dodge+4), so apparently Spd isn't just for forward momentum, but as at least hinted at as having other notable aspects.
So TMNT and at least two powers contradict the book's official statement that Spd is only for forward movement.
Now Maybe they want to keep it simple with one attribute as a tributary to combat bonuses, but you can't say you can build popular heroes with the system as it is. taking Flash for example. He has Superspeed at 14 (DCH3rded: which works out to be about 4 miles per second) He is seen delivering 20+ attacks in a single panel (seen as he is running around a huddled group of crooks as he delivers several punches).
The other side of this is one could argue that PP has nothing to do with your feet or your sense of balance. That strength is just in the arms. PB is just in the face etc. I just to go with the other attributes and apply spd to the whole body.
but again just me