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I always assumed that most of them were synthetic already.

tristen wrote:One of my players asked if synthetic gemstones could be used in TW items. I have no clue about TW items but from what i am reading they are almost if not totaly identical to natural gems. So now the comes the questtion If a lab was uncovered and someone was able to start manufacturing synthetic gemsstones could they be used in TW items and what would happen if they did not work and there was a large influx of them on the market?

Personally I would not allow synthetic to function exactly like the real thing.
They are called synthetic for a reason after all...
And magic while powerful is finicky.
But yes I would allow them to be used; but there would be a trade off of some sort.

There is nothing (that I remember off hand) in the rules about any difference between nat and synth gemstones affecting their use in magic stuff.

However,
In most concepts of magic, when there is some sort of ability to make gems, the gems have to be natural to work.

I would put it that the gems somehow have gathered the essence of the world's magic in them, thus only nat. gems have the magical qualities that are necessary for their use in magic. Thus synthetic gems have not had any chance to have the qualities that magic would depend on for their use in magic creations.

DM ideas are a good synthesis between the two.

Actually, Palladium did cover this in the Rifts Ultimate Edition, p. 134, right column, third paragraph from the bottom. It the small section on "About Precious gems," and discusses where many kinds of gems can be found naturally in the world. At the end of that paragraph is a notation on synthetics.

By this notation, Diamonds and Zircon are the only ones that can't be synthetic for function with TW devices.

As to whether a class like the Stone Masters, or the Gem Powers super power can work with synthetics i guess would be a GM call. Personally, I would say these examples wouldn't matter it natural or man made.

In general, I would have to say no on the mystical side of things.

Presumably, the reason's crystals work is that they're able to contain some of the magical essence of the world (ley lines) and have been absorbing it for a millennial. While synthetic crystals might be of the composition, they're too young to have actually absorbed enough magic to be useful.

tristen wrote:One of my players asked if synthetic gemstones could be used in TW items. I have no clue about TW items but from what i am reading they are almost if not totaly identical to natural gems. So now the comes the questtion If a lab was uncovered and someone was able to start manufacturing synthetic gemstones could they be used in TW items and what would happen if they did not work and there was a large influx of them on the market?

Given that, in none of the various Books which cover TW construction and/or Gems (Rifts: Atlantis, the Rifts Book Of Magic, Rifts: Federation Of Magic, et al.), are artificial gems listed as potential 'power sources,' we can safely say that, OFFICIALLY, you can't use Artifically-Created Gemstones to power TW devices.

Just as a Necromancer cannot (presumably) use artificial limbs or artificial blood to work his magics, so too can we assume that magics that make use of so-called precious and semi-precious stones want the real thing.


The requirements of TW Device Creation are based not on the physical structure of the gems which can be made (even in the real world) to be physically identical to naturally-produced ones, but on the supernatural "desire" of Magic to have real gems be used.

cornholioprime wrote:

tristen wrote:One of my players asked if synthetic gemstones could be used in TW items. I have no clue about TW items but from what i am reading they are almost if not totaly identical to natural gems. So now the comes the questtion If a lab was uncovered and someone was able to start manufacturing synthetic gemstones could they be used in TW items and what would happen if they did not work and there was a large influx of them on the market?

Given that, in none of the various Books which cover TW construction and/or Gems (Rifts: Atlantis, the Rifts Book Of Magic, Rifts: Federation Of Magic, et al.), are artificial gems listed as potential 'power sources,' we can safely say that, OFFICIALLY, you can't use Artifically-Created Gemstones to power TW devices.

sorry, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. unless you can find a source that says they aren't useable, the logical assumption is going to be that they are functionally identicle to their natural counterparts, since they are chemically and structurally identical..

glitterboy2098 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

tristen wrote:One of my players asked if synthetic gemstones could be used in TW items. I have no clue about TW items but from what i am reading they are almost if not totaly identical to natural gems. So now the comes the questtion If a lab was uncovered and someone was able to start manufacturing synthetic gemstones could they be used in TW items and what would happen if they did not work and there was a large influx of them on the market?

Given that, in none of the various Books which cover TW construction and/or Gems (Rifts: Atlantis, the Rifts Book Of Magic, Rifts: Federation Of Magic, et al.), are artificial gems listed as potential 'power sources,' we can safely say that, OFFICIALLY, you can't use Artifically-Created Gemstones to power TW devices.

sorry, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. unless you can find a source that says they aren't useable, the logical assumption is going to be that they are functionally identicle to their natural counterparts, since they are chemically and structurally identical..

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove that they do. And since artificially-created gems ARE structurally and physically identical to their naturally-created counterparts, yet Magic "says" that they can't be used anyway (in at least two instances), I'd say that you've got quite the burden ahead of you.

Nowhere in any Book is there a listed power, PPE Containment Amount, or TW Spell Component use for any Artificially-created Gem.

Not even in the RUE which is over a decade later in production compared to the earliest books.

If there were, then you'd have a point.

But claiming that Artificial Gems can work in TW devices, without solid proof, is like claiming that Saran Wrap or Jif Peanut Butter can be a valid component in a a TW Device just because Kevin didn't stop to take the time to list each and every single prohibition that there could possibly be.
It should be enough for most people to make the proper inference from the UTTER LACK of artificial stones with powers or PPE Storage Capacity or utility in TW devices without having to ask Kevin to hire an Attorney and a Gemologist to make an exhaustive, "you specifically cannot use these" list of every single artificially-created gemstone that exists now or will in the future.

"Kevin didn't explicitly say that I CAN'T use one of those candy Gemstone Ring Pops in my TW device......or Costume Jewelry.......or the fake treasures in the Chest at the Disney Pirates of the Carribean display......therefore I can!!"

Rappanui wrote:actually, Artificial Gems are the real thing, just not made in the same processes.

an Industrial Diamond is STILL A Diamond. it has all the properties of it.

You make my point for me.

Artificially-manufactured Diamonds ARE, in every physical way that counts, real diamonds (and here we're talking about the ones made from Carbon as opposed to the ones made from things like Cubic Zirconia). Same element, same crystal lattices, and in some cases, from what I hear, they can actually also replicate the imperfections present in naturally-created diamonds!

Physically, they are indistinguishable from naturally-created diamonds.
And yet, Magic finds them "unsuitable" for TW work per the specific wording in several Palladium publications.

And this is a repeating pattern across the Palladium Megaverse.

Even though Animal Blood is genetically FAR closer to human than is D-bee blood, Palladium Vampires cannot derive sustenance from animal blood, but can from D-Bees.
Even though Artificial Blood chemically does the same things that real blood does, neither (Palladium) Vampires or Necromancers, or anyone else that makes use of blood, can use it.
And even though Moonlight is reflected light from the sun, the brightest moonlit evening won't harm a Vampire in the slightest, or scare him in the least, while even the most gloomy, stormy, overcast day -no matter how much darker that day might be than is a brightly moonlit light -will still partially burn a vampire if he is caught outdoors.

Likewise, the rules behind TW Gem Authenticity don't make much logical sense as most of us understand the term...but then again, that's because the logic that we rely on is based on the rules of Physics, not Magic.

In the Palladium Megaverse, Magic has a separate "logic" all its own.



EDIT: This same information was printed across multiple Websites dealing with precious and semiprecious stones, so I bring at least one of them to the Forums as an explanation of what synthetic stones are.

What is the difference between natural and synthetic gemstones?
Gemstones are formed by the crystallization of minerals, caused primarily by heat and pressure. Natural gemstones are formed when the heat and pressure are applied over time by the natural forces of the earth. Synthetic (man-made) gemstones are formed when heat and pressure is applied to minerals over time in a laboratory. Synthetic gemstones are by no means "fake" gemstones; rather, they are man-made gemstones with the same chemical and crystal structure as natural gemstones. In addition, natural gemstones often have inclusions, or imperfections in the stone, while synthetic gemstones are typically free from inclusions.

Synthetic Stones are, physically, the same as Real Stones....but that isn't good enough for Magic.

So.....official notification that we can't use physically identical gemstones, PLUS the fact that there is no listing anywhere for the magical capabilities of artificially-manufactured stones, means that we can infer that Kevin doesn't want us to be able to ANY such stones without him having to make a specific "no you can't do that" listing of every artificial gemstone ever created.

Has anyone asked Kevin in an FAQ about this?

Colt47 wrote:Has anyone asked Kevin in an FAQ about this?

I wouldn't ask Kevin even if I wanted to.

Kevin's job in figuratively keeping Palladium's head above water is WAY more important to the world of gaming than his answers to each every hole in his writings that gamers come across.

Unless Kevin ever of his own free will instituted such a thing, I personally wouldn't waste his time with all these questions even if Palladium Games was at the top of the PAPRPG heap, and Kevin was a multi-multi-millionaire who only had to work 2 or 3 hours a day.

I'd LIKE to see such a thing, of course, but I wouldn't want him to do it unless he positively, absolutely wanted to in his spare time.

Hrmm, lets see
"Synthentic Diamond and sythetic zircon do not work in Techno-Wizardry"
I will asume that Kevin at the time of his writing did not know of other gem stones that could be created, and intended that all synthetic stones be blocked, especially since it does not go on to say "but other synthetic gems may be used"

Rappanui wrote:I think the way gem stones are used in rifts, there's not enough natural supply outside the pits of S aFrica that could fill the Tolkeen demand for Giant gem stones.

the ONLY reason synthetic stones would not work in today's applications is that the stones are actually ANOTHER Stone entirely, only having the appearance of another stone. Industrial Diamonds for all intents and purposes are real, and should work, because there is no means to mean test a stone.

Not if you are arguing that a cubic zirconia is "just" an industrial diamond.
it does not matter what information you find in the REAL world when discussing canon.
All that matters is what the rules say.
And what the rules say is "Synthetic zircon does not work in Techno-wizardy."
Remember Magic is a finicky mistress...
Synthetic means not natural or artificial and apparently that is enough for her to refuse to work.

Rappanui wrote:there are not enough gem stones in the US to support technowizardry, without industrial mining.

That is why Gems cost an arm and a leg in rifts.

Rappanui wrote:there are not enough gem stones in the US to support technowizardry, without industrial mining.

on what game data are you basing this conclusion?

Damian Magecraft wrote:it does not matter what information you find in the REAL world when discussing canon.
All that matters is what the rules say.

Canon be damned.

If the rules make no sense, then they get ignored or fixed. In the case of "synthetic" stones, they're made with the same process that nature uses, just on a vastly stepped up schedule so that stones take weeks or months to form rather than thousands of years. In theory, even the trace impurities can be matched perfectly to whatever reference "natural" stone you compare to.

So in the absence of a reason why a synthetic stone wouldn't work, I say let them work.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:it does not matter what information you find in the REAL world when discussing canon.
All that matters is what the rules say.

Canon be damned.

If the rules make no sense, then they get ignored or fixed. In the case of "synthetic" stones, they're made with the same process that nature uses, just on a vastly stepped up schedule so that stones take weeks or months to form rather than thousands of years. In theory, even the trace impurities can be matched perfectly to whatever reference "natural" stone you compare to.

So in the absence of a reason why a synthetic stone wouldn't work, I say let them work.

--flatline

You dropped part of my quote...
Magic is fickle. It does not always react the way science says it should.
The stones were not naturally formed over time.
Perhaps this prevents the synthetic stones from retaining the magic.
Metaphysics do not have to follow the "laws" of known physics. (and often do not)
The rules say synthetic diamonds (and by implication other synthetic gems) do not function in TW.
you say this makes no sense.
But it makes perfect sense if you stop thinking in terms of normal physics; magic after all defies physics as we understand it (we cannot claim it defies them only when the out come is beneficial; down that path lies the realm of munchkins and poor sports.)

canon be canon, house rules be house rules.
this argument was old when it got restarted.

Rappanui wrote:To sum this argument up: The US Currently Consumes 80% of Gemstones in the world Market.
We Grow 5 times the number of Synthetic stones then we Dig Naturally.
Without a global market, and laboratory conditions to grow them, There is simply NOT enough gemstones that are "Natural" remaining to fullfil Technowizard/Stonemaster Usage. Given the fact that Over 70% of Today's Gemstones are NOT natural that eliminates even more Gemstones from being usable in Technowizardry!
Ergo, without proxy access to Elemental plane of earth, there is No way in hell Technowizardry would even be viable, Gemstones would be so rare except in exotic locations.

Sounds like good reasons for a TW to adventure to me.
And since you are insisting on applying Real World to the fictional (thereby ignoring canon)...
That frees me to use pseudo/semi-official Palladium sources...
I suggest you give the Article: There’s Gold in them thar Hills! by Matthew Daye found in Rifter Zero (page 101) a read. Instead of arguing for a change in the rules he explored a valid explanation that actually fits within the Rifts mythology.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:it does not matter what information you find in the REAL world when discussing canon.
All that matters is what the rules say.

Canon be damned.

If the rules make no sense, then they get ignored or fixed. In the case of "synthetic" stones, they're made with the same process that nature uses, just on a vastly stepped up schedule so that stones take weeks or months to form rather than thousands of years. In theory, even the trace impurities can be matched perfectly to whatever reference "natural" stone you compare to.

So in the absence of a reason why a synthetic stone wouldn't work, I say let them work.

--flatline

You dropped part of my quote...
Magic is fickle. It does not always react the way science says it should.
The stones were not naturally formed over time.
Perhaps this prevents the synthetic stones from retaining the magic.
Metaphysics do not have to follow the "laws" of known physics. (and often do not)
The rules say synthetic diamonds (and by implication other synthetic gems) do not function in TW.
you say this makes no sense.
But it makes perfect sense if you stop thinking in terms of normal physics; magic after all defies physics as we understand it (we cannot claim it defies them only when the out come is beneficial; down that path lies the realm of munchkins and poor sports.)

This statement, and the fact that there are NO artificial gemstones in Kevin's listing of TW-suitable gems, strongly implies if not says outright that Kevin simply doesn't want artificial stones used in his games, not officially.

The in-game reasons why can be anything at all, and have not yet been explained (nor probably ever will be).
The out-of-game reasons why probably have more to do with balance than anything else (i.e., a whole lot of the expense and bother goes out the window if somebody can just bust a display case open and grab the Costume Jewelry inside to make their next god-slaying TW weapon).

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:it does not matter what information you find in the REAL world when discussing canon.
All that matters is what the rules say.

Canon be damned.

If the rules make no sense, then they get ignored or fixed. In the case of "synthetic" stones, they're made with the same process that nature uses, just on a vastly stepped up schedule so that stones take weeks or months to form rather than thousands of years. In theory, even the trace impurities can be matched perfectly to whatever reference "natural" stone you compare to.

So in the absence of a reason why a synthetic stone wouldn't work, I say let them work.

--flatline

You dropped part of my quote...
Magic is fickle. It does not always react the way science says it should.
The stones were not naturally formed over time.
Perhaps this prevents the synthetic stones from retaining the magic.
Metaphysics do not have to follow the "laws" of known physics. (and often do not)
The rules say synthetic diamonds (and by implication other synthetic gems) do not function in TW.
you say this makes no sense.
But it makes perfect sense if you stop thinking in terms of normal physics; magic after all defies physics as we understand it (we cannot claim it defies them only when the out come is beneficial; down that path lies the realm of munchkins and poor sports.)

So your argument is that it makes perfect sense, just in a way that we can't understand and seems totally arbitrary?

That's kind of the definition of something that doesn't make sense.

And before someone tries to claim that Game Balance is the answer, no, Game Balance is the result, not the cause. You can never explain something by appealing to Game Balance.

--flatline

flatline wrote:So your argument is that it makes perfect sense, just in a way that we can't understand and seems totally arbitrary?

That's kind of the definition of something that doesn't make sense.

Dude, are you on some kind of 'vendetta' to MAKE Kevin make his fictional, real-life-physics-defying system of the realm of the supernatural, make real-world sense?

If all the nonsense that you see bugs you so very much, then why are you still here even playing this game, or any other game based on fictional physics/fictional magic powers for that matter?

I hate to break what should be painfully obvious to you, but NOTHING in the game setting makes real-world sense, or conforms to real-world laws of logic or physics, from the very nuclear engines in their machines to the concept of Megadamage to teleportation and just about everything in between.
Up to and including the demand from the Authors that only REAL (naturally-produced) stones be suitable for the purposes of creating TW devices.

It makes your demand to make this particular aspect of this game make real-world sense, actually look nonsensical in its own right.

And before someone tries to claim that Game Balance is the answer, no, Game Balance is the result, not the cause. You can never explain something by appealing to Game Balance.

--flatline

Seriously, man, what the hell does that even mean?

There are PLENTY of instances where Kevin obviously makes things work certain ways (e.g., people with Super Powers/Supernatural powers can't become Cosmo-Knights; Crazies can't get wired as Juicers, statements to the effect where he states outright that he's nerfed the stats for certain character classes, etc.) for the sake of Game Balance.

He's just loathe (as The Narrator) to 'break the Fourth Wall' and give out-of-game reasons for his restrictions.

I don't require it to make "real world" sense. Just that it have some semblance of internal consistency.

--flatline

flatline wrote:I don't require it to make "real world" sense. Just that it have some semblance of internal consistency.

--flatline

It does have "internal consistency."

Can't use ARTIFICIAL sunlight to kill Palladium Vampires, not even when said light comes from a nuclear detonation that actually matches the full spectrum of the sun's rays and then some? Check.
Can't use an ARTIFICIAL Blood Substitute for rituals requiring Blood Sacrifice? Check.
Can't use ARTIFICAL Bio-Systems for Necromantic rituals and powers? Check.
Can't get PPE from ARITIFICAL beings like The Machine People? Check.
Can't use ARTIFICIAL Gemstones to use in Techno-Wizardy devices? Check.

Sounds to me as if Kevin (and company) has the "internal consistency" of the games down pat.

Rappanui wrote:Yes i know of the stone magic reference.

but the problem is -- as I stated before..
The Current CS Territories (outside of Arkansas) Do NOT have any access to natural gem stones of any worth because they are not FOUND in those locations. All the pre Rifts Jewelry stores mostly worked with imported goods, and 70% of jewelry sold today is made from junk or industrial gems.

the only way for this Gem Science to have been learned is by procuring it from another dimension where such stones are abundant.
Notice, there is almost no use for Gypsum, and that's about the only stone you'll find in say chi town.

The US Currently imports over 80% of the world's Stones, and 70% of them are Man made.
That Ratio does not eXist 300 years later after dimensional appocalypses.

also, Amber is not a gem stone, Amber Quartz is. Amber is just old tree sap, and can be made relatively quickly!

Rifts Earth is an alternate Earth from the one that we are living on.

On that particular Alternate Earth, they have Gemstones (but only just enough to make getting them a real expensive pain in the keester) and Fissile Material (for those magical nuclear engines) and infinite amounts of "Skelebot Metal" lying around all over the place.

Rappanui wrote:that's the whole problem

Rifts Earth is an alternate Earth from the one that we are living on.

On that particular Alternate Earth, they have Gemstones (but only just enough to make getting them a real expensive pain in the keester) and Fissile Material (for those magical nuclear engines) and infinite amounts of "Skelebot Metal" lying around all over the place.
[\quote]
THERE IS NO Effort on making the logistics even reasonable!

Rifts japan has a whole unconquered world to leech from!
Storm spire has elemental planes to steal from
Where the hell does Tolkeen and whatnot get the stones for developing Technowizardry, when 99% of the stones they'll find in pre rifts caches are ... FAKE.

Why can't Tolkeen get gems off-world?

Rappanui wrote:

Rifts Earth is an alternate Earth from the one that we are living on.

On that particular Alternate Earth, they have Gemstones (but only just enough to make getting them a real expensive pain in the keester) and Fissile Material (for those magical nuclear engines) and infinite amounts of "Skelebot Metal" lying around all over the place.

that's the whole problem
THERE IS NO Effort on making the logistics even reasonable!

Rifts japan has a whole unconquered world to leech from!
Storm spire has elemental planes to steal from
Where the hell does Tolkeen and whatnot get the stones for developing Technowizardry, when 99% of the stones they'll find in pre rifts caches are ... FAKE.

Repeat after me:

FICTIONAL Game Books set in FICTIONAL settings involving FICTIONAL powers and FICTIONAL people and FICTIONAL places are NOT representations of the real world.


Just how many decades do you think should Kevin have to worked on his Books back in the beginning to make them "real-world realistic" to every Gemology Geek, Martial Arts Geek, Gun Geek, Paraphysics Geek, Metallurgy Geek, Nuclear Physics Geek, Xenobiology Geek, Mythology/Theology Geek, and every other Geek in every other applicable field of knowledge who might come by these pages?!?

Rappanui wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Rappanui wrote:that's the whole problem

Rifts Earth is an alternate Earth from the one that we are living on.

On that particular Alternate Earth, they have Gemstones (but only just enough to make getting them a real expensive pain in the keester) and Fissile Material (for those magical nuclear engines) and infinite amounts of "Skelebot Metal" lying around all over the place.
[\quote]
THERE IS NO Effort on making the logistics even reasonable!

Rifts japan has a whole unconquered world to leech from!
Storm spire has elemental planes to steal from
Where the hell does Tolkeen and whatnot get the stones for developing Technowizardry, when 99% of the stones they'll find in pre rifts caches are ... FAKE.

Why can't Tolkeen get gems off-world?

Tolkeen can get them from other worlds, .. but the premise is that it was developed on Rifts Earth using Rifts Earth sources... It wasn't a science developed by an alien race but humans using their screwed up Sense of Alchemy and Blue line energy.

and that they were able to get the stones needed by raiding pre rifts Caches of gemstones...

and then no bothers to think " Most gem stones in stores now are either imports from overseas, or fake lab stones..."


The Logistics in Rifts, NA is flawed Extremely, when it comes to NA and the CS.

And being that its a fictional world who is to say that the cashes are of synthetics?

Rappanui wrote:well , just based on the fact that there's no reason at all to assume that somehow that world, Gemstones are far more abundant and Chemical science hadn't developed away to generate artificial stones.
Since this is the case, crystals should be worth 10 times what they are worth now, and technowizardry should be barely non existant outside communities who don't have access to other worlds.

and yet there is no reason to assume that the caches are of synthetics...
and given that contrary to your "real world" facts and conclusions TW is a functioning existent field of endeavor.
I would say that; That supports an alternate theory to what you propose. and since the internal consistency of the rules states that artificial/synthetic anything and magic do not mix there must be some explanation that does not require breaking that consistency.
The caches being of natural stones is one such theory. (not necessarily the best; but one theory).
Another would be that during the cataclysm when all those Rifts were opening and closing randomly they dumped sufficient amounts of natural stones in NA to make TW viable.

Without answering the question "Why don't synthetic stones work with TW", there can be no internal consistency within the setting. Just a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?
Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?
Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?
What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?
What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

Decide on the mechanism and the answers to all those questions fall out naturally. Ignore the mechanism and you have a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Without answering the question "Why don't synthetic stones work with TW", there can be no internal consistency within the setting. Just a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?
Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?
Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?
What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?
What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

Decide on the mechanism and the answers to all those questions fall out naturally. Ignore the mechanism and you have a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

--flatline

The rules make it plain that only natural stones work.
so the answer to all of your questions involving naturally formed stones is: yes they work
have skills that allow that; trial and error; develop a spell to identify real stones from fakes; etc...
as to the aged synthetics? Synthetic is still synthetic.
the Metaphysics is not that hard to grasp.

Rappanui wrote:And thus, no attempt has been made to explain how a country once awash in synthetic stones is now able to procure diamonds at at the drop of a hat. Despite having no more mines to operate (except in some abandoned mines in Arkansas and Colorado)....

multiple explanations have been offered you have chosen to ignore them because they do not support your claim or stance that synthetics must be allowed to work in TW based on facts gathered from sources outside the FICTIONAL setting.
If you want to allow it in your games that is fine...
However; Do not try and foist your opinion off as fact and the only sensible way to play. (big surprise its not).

Rappanui wrote:And thus, no attempt has been made to explain how a country once awash in synthetic stones is now able to procure diamonds at at the drop of a hat. Despite having no more mines to operate (except in some abandoned mines in Arkansas and Colorado)....

Instead of just repeating and repeating and repeating YOUR OPINION.....

.....

....please tell all of the rest of us the "logic" behind your premise that a FICTIONAL setting that has modern-day Dinosaurs and Robots and Aliens and Gods and Alien Intelligences and Twenty-Year Nuclear Engines and Monsters and Mutated Humanoids/Animals and Magic and Psychic powers.....

....MUST somehow exactly mirror the real world that doesn't have ANY of these things?

Are you just trying to troll at this point?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Without answering the question "Why don't synthetic stones work with TW", there can be no internal consistency within the setting. Just a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?
Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?
Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?
What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?
What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

Decide on the mechanism and the answers to all those questions fall out naturally. Ignore the mechanism and you have a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

--flatline

The rules make it plain that only natural stones work.

The rule has no supporting in-game mechanism. As such, it is a candidate for being ignored.

the Metaphysics is not that hard to grasp.

The metaphysics are completely missing, so they are impossible to grasp. It's the metaphysics that I'm asking for.

--flatline

cornholioprime wrote:

Rappanui wrote:And thus, no attempt has been made to explain how a country once awash in synthetic stones is now able to procure diamonds at at the drop of a hat. Despite having no more mines to operate (except in some abandoned mines in Arkansas and Colorado)....

Instead of just repeating and repeating and repeating YOUR OPINION.....

.....

....please tell all of the rest of us the "logic" behind your premise that a FICTIONAL setting that has modern-day Dinosaurs and Robots and Aliens and Gods and Alien Intelligences and Twenty-Year Nuclear Engines and Monsters and Mutated Humanoids/Animals and Magic and Psychic powers.....

....MUST somehow exactly mirror the real world that doesn't have ANY of these things?

If it doesn't work like the real world, then there must be an in-game mechanism to explain the difference.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Without answering the question "Why don't synthetic stones work with TW", there can be no internal consistency within the setting. Just a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?
Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?
Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?
What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?
What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

Decide on the mechanism and the answers to all those questions fall out naturally. Ignore the mechanism and you have a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

--flatline

The rules make it plain that only natural stones work.

The rule has no supporting in-game mechanism. As such, it is a candidate for being ignored.

the Metaphysics is not that hard to grasp.

The metaphysics are completely missing, so they are impossible to grasp. It's the metaphysics that I'm asking for.

--flatline

The rules are missing?
we have shown over multiple posts where the rules support the stance synthetic gems will not work. Are you intentionally ignoring that wich does not fit your world view? or are you just skipping the posts because ithey are tl;dr?

The metaphysics of ANY rpg are to be found with in the rules themselves.
The Rules of how magic works; what does and does not work in conjunction with the forces of magic are the metaphysics.
so unless you are claiming that the rules for magic do not exist; then I am at a loss for just what it is you are seeking here.

flatline wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Rappanui wrote:And thus, no attempt has been made to explain how a country once awash in synthetic stones is now able to procure diamonds at at the drop of a hat. Despite having no more mines to operate (except in some abandoned mines in Arkansas and Colorado)....

Instead of just repeating and repeating and repeating YOUR OPINION.....

.....

....please tell all of the rest of us the "logic" behind your premise that a FICTIONAL setting that has modern-day Dinosaurs and Robots and Aliens and Gods and Alien Intelligences and Twenty-Year Nuclear Engines and Monsters and Mutated Humanoids/Animals and Magic and Psychic powers.....

....MUST somehow exactly mirror the real world that doesn't have ANY of these things?

If it doesn't work like the real world, then there must be an in-game mechanism to explain the difference.

--flatline

Its called the rules...
that is the support
or do want a book that spends 20 pages explaining why rule such and such is just so?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Without answering the question "Why don't synthetic stones work with TW", there can be no internal consistency within the setting. Just a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?
Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?
Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?
What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?
What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

Decide on the mechanism and the answers to all those questions fall out naturally. Ignore the mechanism and you have a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

--flatline

The rules make it plain that only natural stones work.

The rule has no supporting in-game mechanism. As such, it is a candidate for being ignored.

the Metaphysics is not that hard to grasp.

The metaphysics are completely missing, so they are impossible to grasp. It's the metaphysics that I'm asking for.

--flatline

The rules are missing?
we have shown over multiple posts where the rules support the stance synthetic gems will not work. Are you intentionally ignoring that wich does not fit your world view? or are you just skipping the posts because ithey are tl;dr?

The metaphysics of ANY rpg are to be found with in the rules themselves.
The Rules of how magic works; what does and does not work in conjunction with the forces of magic are the metaphysics.
so unless you are claiming that the rules for magic do not exist; then I am at a loss for just what it is you are seeking here.

No, metaphysics exist in-game. Rules should accurately reflect the metaphysics of the setting. In this case, we have rules, but no metaphysics.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Without answering the question "Why don't synthetic stones work with TW", there can be no internal consistency within the setting. Just a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?
Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?
Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?
What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?
What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

Decide on the mechanism and the answers to all those questions fall out naturally. Ignore the mechanism and you have a bunch of arbitrary rulings.

--flatline

The rules make it plain that only natural stones work.

The rule has no supporting in-game mechanism. As such, it is a candidate for being ignored.

the Metaphysics is not that hard to grasp.

The metaphysics are completely missing, so they are impossible to grasp. It's the metaphysics that I'm asking for.

--flatline

The rules are missing?
we have shown over multiple posts where the rules support the stance synthetic gems will not work. Are you intentionally ignoring that wich does not fit your world view? or are you just skipping the posts because ithey are tl;dr?

The metaphysics of ANY rpg are to be found with in the rules themselves.
The Rules of how magic works; what does and does not work in conjunction with the forces of magic are the metaphysics.
so unless you are claiming that the rules for magic do not exist; then I am at a loss for just what it is you are seeking here.

No, metaphysics exist in-game. Rules should accurately reflect the metaphysics of the setting. In this case, we have rules, but no metaphysics.

--flatline

Let me see I get this...
Because there is no fluff explanation the metaphysics do not exist?
When there is no fluff the rules are the metaphysics. Since as you say the rules support the metaphysics they therefore must be based on the metaphysics.
The simple metaphysics (as they pertain to this discussion) of the Mega-verse is that artificial/synthetics and Magic do not interact well (if at all). There is no explanation beyond that needed; we understand at that point just what needs to be understood for purposes of game play. you cannot use artificial gems in TW. why? Because Artificial diamonds will not work. to exclude them and not other artificial stones is counter intuitive. (while magic is fickle it does have its own internal consistency.)

flatline wrote:No, metaphysics exist in-game. Rules should accurately reflect the metaphysics of the setting. In this case, we have rules, but no metaphysics.

--flatline

So you missed that post that was made just a little while back regarding those MULTIPLE examples of artificial replacements for natural processes and materials NOT being able to be used in the realm of the supernatural?

You're really not helping the argument that you're trying to put forth.

flatline wrote:How does a technowizard tell a "good" stone from a "bad" stone?

The answer is simple, if the T-Wizard in question doesn't have a sufficiently high skill in the required fields: The same way that a would-be Vampire Hunter who doesn't have sufficient skill in, say, Metallurgy will have to find out if the shiny, silvery blade in his hands is real silver or not.

The answer for both persons is to either find out by (hopefully NOT fatal) trial-and-error, or take said item to an expert in the two items' respective materials.

Do natural stones from low PPE dimensions still work?

A]] They already exist, and are used extensively, on the low-magic world/dimension known as Palladium.

B]] There is NO requirement in the first place, in this Palladium Game Module or any other, that the materials in question require the dimension to have a set magical energy level in order to work.

Does the Silver Sword somehow NOT affect the supernatural creature if the creature is hit on the Palladium World, or the world of Heroes Unlimited, or Wormwood, or Skraypers, or Aliens Unlimited?

Does natural amber that is only 50 years old work?

The mechanics of the game setting don't require the amber in question (or any other gem for that matter) to be any particular age at all, just NATURALLY-occurring.

What about synthetic amber that is 5000 years old?

The mechanics of the game setting don't require the amber in question (or any other gem for that matter) to be any particular age at all, just NATURALLY-occurring.

What about synthetic stones that were aged millions of years via temporal magic?

The mechanics of the game setting don't require the amber in question (or any other gem for that matter) to be any particular age at all, just NATURALLY-occurring.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:
The rule has no supporting in-game mechanism. As such, it is a candidate for being ignored.

the Metaphysics is not that hard to grasp.

The metaphysics are completely missing, so they are impossible to grasp. It's the metaphysics that I'm asking for.

--flatline

The rules are missing?
we have shown over multiple posts where the rules support the stance synthetic gems will not work. Are you intentionally ignoring that wich does not fit your world view? or are you just skipping the posts because ithey are tl;dr?

The metaphysics of ANY rpg are to be found with in the rules themselves.
The Rules of how magic works; what does and does not work in conjunction with the forces of magic are the metaphysics.
so unless you are claiming that the rules for magic do not exist; then I am at a loss for just what it is you are seeking here.

No, metaphysics exist in-game. Rules should accurately reflect the metaphysics of the setting. In this case, we have rules, but no metaphysics.

--flatline

Let me see I get this...
Because there is no fluff explanation the metaphysics do not exist?
When there is no fluff the rules are the metaphysics. Since as you say the rules support the metaphysics they therefore must be based on the metaphysics.
The simple metaphysics (as they pertain to this discussion) of the Mega-verse is that artificial/synthetics and Magic do not interact well (if at all). There is no explanation beyond that needed; we understand at that point just what needs to be understood for purposes of game play. you cannot use artificial gems in TW. why? Because Artificial diamonds will not work. to exclude them and not other artificial stones is counter intuitive. (while magic is fickle it does have its own internal consistency.)

The setting is more important than the rules. As such, the "fluff" that provides the in-game explanation for things is of more value than the rules that describe the game mechanics.

It's not enough to say that particular diamonds won't work. In the absence of an explanation of WHY they won't work (how is the natural diamond physically or metaphysically different than the synthetic?), then the rules are baseless and arbitrary since we don't know what they are trying to describe and thus we can't evaluate if they do a good job describing it.

What if I built a box several miles in dimensions, filled it with carbon rich materials, and came back in a million years? Would the diamonds inside be suitable for technowizardry?

--flatline

flatline wrote:The setting is more important than the rules. As such, the "fluff" that provides the in-game explanation for things is of more value than the rules that describe the game mechanics.

It's not enough to say that particular diamonds won't work. In the absence of an explanation of WHY they won't work (how is the natural diamond physically or metaphysically different than the synthetic?), then the rules are baseless and arbitrary since we don't know what they are trying to describe and thus we can't evaluate if they do a good job describing it.

What if I built a box several miles in dimensions, filled it with carbon rich materials, and came back in a million years? Would the diamonds inside be suitable for technowizardry?

--flatline

Yeah, at this point I'm personally willing to declare that you're just playing dumb and acting as if you've never, ever, noticed an internal consistency to the metaphysical aspects of the game......all because, as I see it, you don't want to concede your opinion no matter what contradictory facts are presented to you.

How is it that Palladium Vampires are absolutely immune to the effects of a nuclear explosion, but not naturally-occurring Sunlight.........when both types of nuclear fission/fusion produce all the same wavelengths of light?
Answer: A META-Physical rule -The "Meta" in "Metaphysical" pertaining to an effect that lies outside the bounds of linear logic and physical laws.

How is it that a Palladium Vampire can drink the Blood of an alien D-Bee, and gain nourishment from it....but not be able to do so from the blood of an Earth animal...even though the genetic composition of the earth animal's blood is MUCH closer to human than is the alien D-Bee (most/all lifeforms on the same planet usually having a common origin), and Vampires can also drink (actually prefer) the blood of humans?
Answer: A META-Physical rule -The "Meta" in "Metaphysical" pertaining to an effect that lies outside the bounds of linear logic and physical laws.

How is that if a Tattooed Man's arm is cut off, thrown into a fire and completely incinerated, and that same Tattooed Man is given a replacement arm made from DNA culled from a completely different part of his body...the Magic Tattoos reappear on that brand new arm?
Answer: A META-Physical rule -The "Meta" in "Metaphysical" pertaining to an effect that lies outside the bounds of linear logic and physical laws.

And how is that, regardless of the time the naturally-occurring gem has been sitting in the ground -whether it finally came into existence as said gem just yesterday or a billion years ago -that it is suitable for use in a TW device, but NOT an artificially-created gem, even if it were possible to completely duplicate the naturally-occurring one right down to the placement of each and every atom?
Answer: A META-Physical rule -The "Meta" in "Metaphysical" pertaining to an effect that lies outside the bounds of linear logic and physical laws.

Magic in the Palladium Setting is NOT just Arthur C. Clarke "indistinguishable super-science," and by its very advertised nature, it is allowed to follow some semblance of internal consistency -in this case, not allowing the man-made in many/most cases to be a substitute for spells and rituals and effects that ask for the naturally-made -but outside of that internal consistency, Magic doesn't have to follow the dictates of logic as you or I or Damian or anybody else understands it in the real world.

Cornholioprime, you do not understand what metaphysics is. A rule that says something works a certain way is not the same as the metaphysical explanation of what's going on in-game.

The effect of synthetic stones not working with TW is the result of some in-game metaphysical mechanism that, if understood, explains how synthetic stones are different from natural stones. The rule given describes the effect without giving any insight into the explanation for the effect. If you can't understand that distinction, then any argument you make, no matter how masterfully done, will be irrelevant to my argument except maybe by accident.

Please attempt to understand my argument before declaring anything about it or me. If you're not capable of understanding it, perhaps you should ask clarifying questions instead of just writing me off as a troll or pedant. You might just learn something.

--flatline

flatline wrote:The effect of synthetic stones not working with TW is the result of some in-game metaphysical mechanism that, if understood, explains how synthetic stones are different from natural stones.

There isn't any PHYSICAL difference between an artificially-produced Gem and its naturally-produced counterpart.

However, there is a METAPHYSICAL difference between the two aforementioned stones that has nothing whatsoever to do with the two stones' molecular composition, purity, or anything else PHYSICAL.

You're demanding that a FICTIONAL power that is DELIBERATELY stated as being designed to defy the laws of physics, and logical progression, as we understand these things, be explained with real-world logic anyway.

Go ahead, tell the rest of us: How, exactly, is that demand of yours supposed to be carried out?

The rule given describes the effect without giving any insight into the explanation for the effect. If you can't understand that distinction, then any argument you make, no matter how masterfully done, will be irrelevant to my argument except maybe by accident.

There ISN'T any logical explanation for the supernatural -non-logical -effect, and this has been pointed out to you repeatedly with example after example after example.

The supernatural in Palladium Games has been DELIBERATELY designed, from the ground up, so to speak, to defy even the internal pseudo-physics of the fictional setting.

You are asked again: By what means should the non-logical, follow real-world logic?

Please attempt to understand my argument before declaring anything about it or me. If you're not capable of understanding it, perhaps you should ask clarifying questions instead of just writing me off as a troll or pedant. You might just learn something.

--flatline

Get off your high horse.

When you IGNORE all that has been put in front you thus far -and IIRC this hasn't been the only Thread in which you've come forth with this "FICTIONAL magical powers MUST make REAL-WORLD sense" nonsense, then yes, you richly deserve the calling out that you've gotten.

I'll ask you once more in parting:

How is a FICTIONAL plot device, deliberately designed to NOT conform even to the internal rules of science in the fictional setting, supposed to be explained with real-world logic?



Back to you.

cornholioprime wrote:

flatline wrote:The effect of synthetic stones not working with TW is the result of some in-game metaphysical mechanism that, if understood, explains how synthetic stones are different from natural stones.

There isn't any PHYSICAL difference between an artificially-produced Gem and its naturally-produced counterpart.

I'm glad we agree.

However, there is a METAPHYSICAL difference between the two aforementioned stones that has nothing whatsoever to do with the two stones' molecular composition, purity, or anything else PHYSICAL.

For the rule to be non-arbitrary, that must be the case. However, no such difference has been posited in the books, this thread, or any previous thread on this same subject that withstands any non-trivial analysis.

You're demanding that a FICTIONAL power that is DELIBERATELY stated as being designed to defy the laws of physics, and logical progression, as we understand these things, be explained with real-world logic anyway.

It defies physics, but not logic. Magic, as something that is discoverable, repeatable, and testable, must be bound by in-game metaphysical constraints even if these constraints lie outside the laws of physics. As such, logic is just as applicable here as anywhere else.

Go ahead, tell the rest of us: How, exactly, is that demand of yours supposed to be carried out?

I don't think such a mechanism can be both internally consistent and still satisfy the rule as written. As such, I'm content to throw the rule out. However, in the interests of healthy forum discussion, I'm giving you and anyone else who feels so inclined the chance to convince me that such a mechanism is, in fact, possible.

Suggest to me a candidate mechanism and I promise I'll help you make the best case for it before I test it to see if it's suitable. I've already done this exercise for the most obvious mechanisms and found they all have fatal flaws that require them to be discarded.

The rule given describes the effect without giving any insight into the explanation for the effect. If you can't understand that distinction, then any argument you make, no matter how masterfully done, will be irrelevant to my argument except maybe by accident.

There ISN'T any logical explanation for the supernatural -non-logical -effect, and this has been pointed out to you repeatedly with example after example after example.

The supernatural in Palladium Games has been DELIBERATELY designed, from the ground up, so to speak, to defy even the internal pseudo-physics of the fictional setting.

You are asked again: By what means should the non-logical, follow real-world logic?

Saying that logic doesn't apply is like saying that math doesn't apply. It's a nonsensical statement.

The metaphysical laws of the setting are clearly different than those of the real world, but logic still applies to them. If we knew what they were, we wouldn't even be having this discussion since because the implications would be perfectly clear to everyone.

Please attempt to understand my argument before declaring anything about it or me. If you're not capable of understanding it, perhaps you should ask clarifying questions instead of just writing me off as a troll or pedant. You might just learn something.

--flatline

Get off your high horse.

Knock me off of it. Stun me by actually demonstrating that you even understand the issue here because from where I'm sitting, it doesn't even look like you're trying.

When you IGNORE all that has been put in front you thus far -and IIRC this hasn't been the only Thread in which you've come forth with this "FICTIONAL magical powers MUST make REAL-WORLD sense" nonsense, then yes, you richly deserve the calling out that you've gotten.

I don't require anything to make REAL-WORLD sense. I just require it to make GAME-WORLD sense. I've stated this multiple times in different ways trying to get you and others to understand that quoting rules to me, which is all you've done, is irrelevant to my concern since rules that describe something that can't possibly make in game sense are, by definition, BAD RULES.

Prove to me that you can actually understand the issue and think critically about it and then maybe being "called out" by you will have some meaning. Here's your chance! Show me that a self-consistent in-game mechanism can exist that is consistent with the book rule that isn't some contrived piece of garbage and I'll quite happily go "Golly, you're right!"

I'll ask you once more in parting:

How is a FICTIONAL plot device, deliberately designed to NOT conform even to the internal rules of science in the fictional setting, supposed to be explained with real-world logic?

And again, I'm not asking it to be consistent with science (although that would be even better if it was). All that I'm asking is that it make some attempt to be consistent IN-GAME.

I'm starting to suspect that you don't know what logic is if you think that logic can't be applied to any arbitrary set of rules...

Back to you.

Right back atchya.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

flatline wrote:The effect of synthetic stones not working with TW is the result of some in-game metaphysical mechanism that, if understood, explains how synthetic stones are different from natural stones.

There isn't any PHYSICAL difference between an artificially-produced Gem and its naturally-produced counterpart.

I'm glad we agree.

If you understand the first part of the 'equation' ("It doesn't matter that both sets of gems are physically identical"), then you SHOULD be able to understand the second part of the 'equation' ("The difference that Magic 'sees' in the two gemstones has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with their physical qualities -which is a recurring theme in Palladium Magic").

As far as I'm concerned, you're just trying to play dumb for the purposes of pushing a personal agenda.

For the rule to be non-arbitrary, that must be the case. However, no such difference has been posited in the books, this thread, or any previous thread on this same subject that withstands any non-trivial analysis.

The only difference that you CAN be given for the reason why Magic will "reject" the naturally-made stone but "accept" the artificially-produced-even-if-it-physically-reproduces-the-natural-stone-down-to-the-smallest-subatomic-detail stone......

....IS "just because."

No other explanation is necessary, and indeed any such explanation would be impossible to come up with, by the very nature of an energy source that has been explicitly described in multiple Palladium publications throughout the years as defying both logic and the laws of physics.

What you are attempting to do is trying to get the Authors to explain what they have already said is inexplicable, and to assign some manner of logical process to what the Authors have already said defies convention (read: logic).

You're demanding that a FICTIONAL power that is DELIBERATELY stated as being designed to defy the laws of physics, and logical progression, as we understand these things, be explained with real-world logic anyway.

It defies physics, but not logic. Magic, as something that is discoverable, repeatable, and testable, must be bound by in-game metaphysical constraints even if these constraints lie outside the laws of physics. As such, logic is just as applicable here as anywhere else.

Magic may be bound by INTERNAL "laws" (e.g., "the stones and blood that you use in the creation of that Golem must be real and not man-made"), but apart from whatever peek the Authors give us into the inner workings of a given magical effect, no further explanation is necessary -or in many cases even possible (Q: "Why can't I combine my strongest beliefs with the use of Costume Jewelry and Artificial Blood to create that Golem?" A: The answer is 'Just Because.').

Go ahead, tell the rest of us: How, exactly, is that demand of yours supposed to be carried out?

I don't think such a mechanism can be both internally consistent and still satisfy the rule as written. As such, I'm content to throw the rule out. However, in the interests of healthy forum discussion, I'm giving you and anyone else who feels so inclined the chance to convince me that such a mechanism is, in fact, possible.

WE are the ones telling YOU that your desire to have that which has been repeatedly stated to be non-sensical (Palladium Magic) make sense, is a futile task.

Since YOU are the one who keeps insisting that Palladium Magic conform to real-world logical progression, and/or the laws of physics, it is up to YOU to prove YOUR argument.

Suggest to me a candidate mechanism and I promise I'll help you make the best case for it before I test it to see if it's suitable. I've already done this exercise for the most obvious mechanisms and found they all have fatal flaws that require them to be discarded.

The sooner that you grasp the fact that Palladium Magic doesn't actually have a set "mechanism," that it in fact simply manifests in certain ways for non-linear, non-logical reasons, the better off you'll be.

The rule given describes the effect without giving any insight into the explanation for the effect. If you can't understand that distinction, then any argument you make, no matter how masterfully done, will be irrelevant to my argument except maybe by accident.

There ISN'T any logical explanation for the supernatural -non-logical -effect, and this has been pointed out to you repeatedly with example after example after example.

The supernatural in Palladium Games has been DELIBERATELY designed, from the ground up, so to speak, to defy even the internal pseudo-physics of the fictional setting.

You are asked again: By what means should the non-logical, follow real-world logic?

Saying that logic doesn't apply is like saying that math doesn't apply. It's a nonsensical statement.

If Palladium Magic were logical, it wouldn't be "magic" as that force is defined within the fictional Palladium setting.

The pseudo-science of the setting, is logical.
The metaphysical forces in the setting, are not.

The metaphysical laws of the setting are clearly different than those of the real world, but logic still applies to them.

Not even close.

Palladium Magic breaks the rules of physics and logic on a regular basis.

I don't require anything to make REAL-WORLD sense. I just require it to make GAME-WORLD sense.

You were already provided with multiple examples, in this very Thread, about how "consistent" Palladium Magic is in-game about requiring naturally-produced items and forces to cause supernatural effects. We have seen this internal in-game consistency in places as diverse as (amongst other things) the "Natural Materials As Armor Don't Affect Magic Users" rule, the "Silver Weapon Must Be At Least 85% Pure Silver To Harm The Vampire" rule, the "Artificial Beings Cannot Have PPE, No Matter How Advanced, Not Even The Machine People" rule, the "Vampires Are Completely Immune To The Effects of a Nuclear Detonation, But They'll Burn Up In Sunlight" rule, and of course the "Gems Used In The Construction Of TW Devices Must Be Naturally Made" rule.

The in-game consistency of this particular facet of palladium Magic is blindingly obvious.....for anybody who doesn't have an agenda, that is. That the Authors are consistent across multiple examples shows that, in fact, they HAVE made a logically coherent game-world requirement for The Natural to affect The Supernatural, as opposed to The Artificial.

I've stated this multiple times in different ways trying to get you and others to understand that quoting rules to me, which is all you've done, is irrelevant to my concern since rules that describe something that can't possibly make in game sense are, by definition, BAD RULES.

See above.

Contrary to your opinion, the stated-in-so-many-words rule about Natural Substances (but not Artificial Substances) being suitable for supernatural applications is actually quite prevalent throughout the books.

Panomas wrote:I agree with cornholioprime and over time have agreed with the thoughts he's shared so many times i might just have to find something to sig-

Just a small tid-bit of information here...
Corny and I do not always agree on the interpretation of the magic system...
But you can bet when we do agree we are not in the wrong.

cornholioprime wrote:

flatline wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

flatline wrote:The effect of synthetic stones not working with TW is the result of some in-game metaphysical mechanism that, if understood, explains how synthetic stones are different from natural stones.

There isn't any PHYSICAL difference between an artificially-produced Gem and its naturally-produced counterpart.

I'm glad we agree.

If you understand the first part of the 'equation' ("It doesn't matter that both sets of gems are physically identical"), then you SHOULD be able to understand the second part of the 'equation' ("The difference that Magic 'sees' in the two gemstones has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with their physical qualities -which is a recurring theme in Palladium Magic").

So, the two gems are different in a non-physical way. What is that difference? Near as I can tell, the difference is purely historical.

As far as I'm concerned, you're just trying to play dumb for the purposes of pushing a personal agenda.

For the rule to be non-arbitrary, that must be the case. However, no such difference has been posited in the books, this thread, or any previous thread on this same subject that withstands any non-trivial analysis.

The only difference that you CAN be given for the reason why Magic will "reject" the naturally-made stone but "accept" the artificially-produced-even-if-it-physically-reproduces-the-natural-stone-down-to-the-smallest-subatomic-detail stone......

....IS "just because."

Which is a cop out, not an explanation.

No other explanation is necessary, and indeed any such explanation would be impossible to come up with, by the very nature of an energy source that has been explicitly described in multiple Palladium publications throughout the years as defying both logic and the laws of physics.

You've stated this several times as if you think you're actually making an argument for something. What you're really saying is that Palladium didn't bother to create a magic system that is more sophisticated than a list of spells and no underlying themes or principles as to how magic works.

I'm sure you'll state this exact same sentiment many more times before this thread finally dies out and it will continue to not be an argument.

What you are attempting to do is trying to get the Authors to explain what they have already said is inexplicable, and to assign some manner of logical process to what the Authors have already said defies convention (read: logic).

You're demanding that a FICTIONAL power that is DELIBERATELY stated as being designed to defy the laws of physics, and logical progression, as we understand these things, be explained with real-world logic anyway.

It defies physics, but not logic. Magic, as something that is discoverable, repeatable, and testable, must be bound by in-game metaphysical constraints even if these constraints lie outside the laws of physics. As such, logic is just as applicable here as anywhere else.

Magic may be bound by INTERNAL "laws" (e.g., "the stones and blood that you use in the creation of that Golem must be real and not man-made"), but apart from whatever peek the Authors give us into the inner workings of a given magical effect, no further explanation is necessary -or in many cases even possible (Q: "Why can't I combine my strongest beliefs with the use of Costume Jewelry and Artificial Blood to create that Golem?" A: The answer is 'Just Because.').

Sorry, but "just because" will never be an answer. A more intellectually honest answer would be "I don't know".

Go ahead, tell the rest of us: How, exactly, is that demand of yours supposed to be carried out?

I don't think such a mechanism can be both internally consistent and still satisfy the rule as written. As such, I'm content to throw the rule out. However, in the interests of healthy forum discussion, I'm giving you and anyone else who feels so inclined the chance to convince me that such a mechanism is, in fact, possible.

WE are the ones telling YOU that your desire to have that which has been repeatedly stated to be non-sensical (Palladium Magic) make sense, is a futile task.

Since YOU are the one who keeps insisting that Palladium Magic conform to real-world logical progression, and/or the laws of physics, it is up to YOU to prove YOUR argument.

And I already have. Given the seeming impossibility that an internally consistent in-game mechanism exists that can make the stated rule work, the rule is a BAD RULE and should be tossed out along with all the extrapolation you guys have added to it since it specifically mentions just a couple of types of stones, yet you apply it to all stones that can be synthetically made.

Suggest to me a candidate mechanism and I promise I'll help you make the best case for it before I test it to see if it's suitable. I've already done this exercise for the most obvious mechanisms and found they all have fatal flaws that require them to be discarded.

The sooner that you grasp the fact that Palladium Magic doesn't actually have a set "mechanism," that it in fact simply manifests in certain ways for non-linear, non-logical reasons, the better off you'll be.

I'm comforted by the fact that you're so concerned about my well-being, but I'm well aware of the sad state of comic book physics and arbitrary power lists in the Palladium books. That doesn't mean that we can't salvage the setting.

The rule given describes the effect without giving any insight into the explanation for the effect. If you can't understand that distinction, then any argument you make, no matter how masterfully done, will be irrelevant to my argument except maybe by accident.

There ISN'T any logical explanation for the supernatural -non-logical -effect, and this has been pointed out to you repeatedly with example after example after example.

The supernatural in Palladium Games has been DELIBERATELY designed, from the ground up, so to speak, to defy even the internal pseudo-physics of the fictional setting.

You are asked again: By what means should the non-logical, follow real-world logic?

Saying that logic doesn't apply is like saying that math doesn't apply. It's a nonsensical statement.

If Palladium Magic were logical, it wouldn't be "magic" as that force is defined within the fictional Palladium setting.

The pseudo-science of the setting, is logical.
The metaphysical forces in the setting, are not.

Claiming we can't reason about something is just another cop out.

The metaphysical laws of the setting are clearly different than those of the real world, but logic still applies to them.

Not even close.

Palladium Magic breaks the rules of physics and logic on a regular basis.

It breaks the rules of physics, sure. But where does it violate logic? It's certainly subject to cause and effect (cast spell + supply sufficient PPE == effect). When was the last time you had the spell effect take place before you cast the spell?

I don't require anything to make REAL-WORLD sense. I just require it to make GAME-WORLD sense.

You were already provided with multiple examples, in this very Thread, about how "consistent" Palladium Magic is in-game about requiring naturally-produced items and forces to cause supernatural effects.

You provided examples of RULES, not in-game mechanisms. In fact, just about every rule provided is probably an example of a BAD RULE just like the synthetic gem rule. It does nothing to strengthen your non-existent argument except to demonstrate that there's lots of other rules that probably need to be fixed in order to preserve the integrity of the setting.

We have seen this internal in-game consistency in places as diverse as (amongst other things) the "Natural Materials As Armor Don't Affect Magic Users" rule, the "Silver Weapon Must Be At Least 85% Pure Silver To Harm The Vampire" rule, the "Artificial Beings Cannot Have PPE, No Matter How Advanced, Not Even The Machine People" rule, the "Vampires Are Completely Immune To The Effects of a Nuclear Detonation, But They'll Burn Up In Sunlight" rule, and of course the "Gems Used In The Construction Of TW Devices Must Be Naturally Made" rule.

Quoting (potentially bad) rules does nothing to address my argument.

The in-game consistency of this particular facet of palladium Magic is blindingly obvious.....for anybody who doesn't have an agenda, that is. That the Authors are consistent across multiple examples shows that, in fact, they HAVE made a logically coherent game-world requirement for The Natural to affect The Supernatural, as opposed to The Artificial.

But it hinges on an arbitrary and indefensible definition of the idea of "man-made" or "natural" or "synthetic" that falls apart under any scrutiny at all. What is it about "man-made" things that make them unsuitable for magic? What is it about the origin of the thing that makes it work

I've stated this multiple times in different ways trying to get you and others to understand that quoting rules to me, which is all you've done, is irrelevant to my concern since rules that describe something that can't possibly make in game sense are, by definition, BAD RULES.

See above.

Contrary to your opinion, the stated-in-so-many-words rule about Natural Substances (but not Artificial Substances) being suitable for supernatural applications is actually quite prevalent throughout the books.

So what? Rules with no explanatory mechanisms are worthless. You could post 1000 more examples of rules and it would still be irrelevant to my concern. The rules should conform to the setting, not the other way around. If something can't be made to make sense within the game, then any rule that requires it should be thrown out since it is, by definition, a BAD RULE.

Why would you put the preservation of bad rules ahead of the integrity of the setting?

And you keep implying that I have an agenda like that's a bad thing. My agenda is to improve the setting. I'm not an active player and even if I was, I certainly wouldn't need your approval to run my game the way I like it.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Panomas wrote:I agree with cornholioprime and over time have agreed with the thoughts he's shared so many times i might just have to find something to sig-

Just a small tid-bit of information here...
Corny and I do not always agree on the interpretation of the magic system...
But you can bet when we do agree we are not in the wrong.

Simply declaring yourself the winner because you agree with someone that you don't normally agree with is an excellent way to win a debate. I can't wait for Obama or Romney to agree with something that Stalin or Hitler said just so they can play this trump card!

*waits for the sarcasm to pool on the floor*

--flatline