Lab created gems and other TW questions...

[Dr Megaverse]

I took a look around the forums and didn't see anything on these questions so I thought I'd make a new post.

Can lab created gems (emeralds, sapphires, rubys, etc) be used in a TW construct?

Are there any limitations on the kinds of devices which can be converted to utilize both a TW power source and a conventional power source?

Thank you!

[flatline]

The physical properties of gems isn't dependent on their origin or history, so I'd rule "yes".

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

Can lab created gems (emeralds, sapphires, rubys, etc) be used in a TW construct?

RUE pg134: "...Note: Synthetic diamonds and synthetic zircon (man-made) do not work in Techno-Wizardry."

Weather other synthetic gems are out (aside from Diamond and zircon) entirely or not isn't stated, but there is a precedent from diamond and zircon that would point to a no.

[flatline]

So what's the difference between stones made in a lab and those made deep underground?

Chemically and physically, they can be made indistinguishable. Why should technowizardry work with one but not the other?

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

What ever the reason is it probably has some mystical component to it (aside from maybe game balance). Either the gem requires a certain amount of time to soak up PPE and such to be usefull (to a TW or Stone Master), or there is some fundamental physical difference between the two types that isn't apparent except on a mystical level.

[Mack]

So what's the difference between stones made in a lab and those made deep underground?

Chemically and physically, they can be made indistinguishable. Why should technowizardry work with one but not the other?

Because it's not science, it's magic.

[flatline]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

--flatline

[Giant2005]

What if the Diamond wasn't created in a lab but conjured by a conjurer, would that make a difference or still useless?

[Mack]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

What's the scientific process for magic? You can't apply the rules of science to something that is outside of science.

It's magic--that's the only explanation we have.

[Shark_Force]

if you're a GM and you're looking for a way to add this into a game, just change the rules. you don't need any rulebook citations, you're the GM. you ARE the rulebook citation.

if you're a player trying to look for a way to "force" your GM to let you use man-made gems because it's in the rule book, then knock it off. there are good rules lawyers, and there are bad rules lawyers. if you are doing this, then you are being a bad rules lawyer, and you need to stop pulling this kind of nonsense because it's probably ruining other people's fun.

if you're just asking out of curiosity or so that you have the information for future reference or it otherwise doesn't really matter to you, then you already have your answer; no they can't be used. if it doesn't matter to you, there really isn't any need to keep searching for loopholes.

as far as the second question, i can't imagine why there would be any sort of limitation to what can have two sources of energy as needed. you can make a TW generator, which does nothing more than generate completely non-magical electricity usable to power completely unmodified technological devices.

although i suppose to be fair, making anything below a certain size have a TW power supply at all is likely impossible; if you can't physically fit a 1-carat gem into that amount of space, i suppose you can't have a dual TW/regular power supply set-up.

[kronos]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

What's the scientific process for magic? You can't apply the rules of science to something that is outside of science.

It's magic--that's the only explanation we have.

To paraphrase a quote "Any significantly highly advanced technology is seen as magic".. so magic is just a super advanced form of science that some people can access due to some part of the brain that is being used to tap into a different form of energy to shape it on a scale currently unavailable/understandable by current technology?
I think there was a slight hinting at of such reasoning in the marvel movie Thor. I'll have to watch it again, but it's when Thor's explaining the bridge.

[flatline]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

What's the scientific process for magic? You can't apply the rules of science to something that is outside of science.

It's magic--that's the only explanation we have.

In a reality where magic exists and is in any way repeatable, magic is just another science.

--flatline

[Mack]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

What's the scientific process for magic? You can't apply the rules of science to something that is outside of science.

It's magic--that's the only explanation we have.

In a reality where magic exists and is in any way repeatable, magic is just another science.

Exactly. Another science, one apart from our science and with it's own set of rules.

[flatline]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

What's the scientific process for magic? You can't apply the rules of science to something that is outside of science.

It's magic--that's the only explanation we have.

In a reality where magic exists and is in any way repeatable, magic is just another science.

Exactly. Another science, one apart from our science and with it's own set of rules.

I'm confused. Are you saying that magic is a scientific field that doesn't follow any of the rules that are common to all scientific fields? If so, the inherent contradiction present in that statement should be obvious to you.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

I'm confused. Are you saying that magic is a scientific field that doesn't follow any of the rules that are common to all scientific fields? If so, the inherent contradiction present in that statement should be obvious to you.

--flatline

if he isn't, then he should be. magic doesn't worry about conservation of matter or energy, particularly, just as one example. with the same amount of energy, i can create various different masses of wood. takes the same amount of energy, whether i'm a level 10 mage casting the spell, or a level 1 mage, but the amount of mass produced is the same.

as another example, it costs the same amount of energy to transport a 50 pound object 5 miles as it does to transport a 1 pound object 1 foot using teleport:lesser. science tells us that should involve very different amounts of energy. science tells us that if you actually *were* to transfer that object instantly to another point, you're going to have "bad things" happen because the object will then have a truly ridiculous amount of kinetic energy in a different direction than whatever else happens to be in that new location (but the same relative to the universe), but magical teleportation doesn't work like that. science tells us that since you're displacing air to transport the object, you should be able to displace anything else, and thus willfully teleport an object inside another object (and this can even happen accidentally)... which would likely, in most cases, result in a horrible death for most biological life forms to suddenly have 50 pounds of their mass replaced with something else. magic tells us "no, you can't do that".

[Nightmask]

I'm confused. Are you saying that magic is a scientific field that doesn't follow any of the rules that are common to all scientific fields? If so, the inherent contradiction present in that statement should be obvious to you.

--flatline

if he isn't, then he should be. magic doesn't worry about conservation of matter or energy, particularly, just as one example. with the same amount of energy, i can create various different masses of wood. takes the same amount of energy, whether i'm a level 10 mage casting the spell, or a level 1 mage, but the amount of mass produced is the same.

as another example, it costs the same amount of energy to transport a 50 pound object 5 miles as it does to transport a 1 pound object 1 foot using teleport:lesser. science tells us that should involve very different amounts of energy. science tells us that if you actually *were* to transfer that object instantly to another point, you're going to have "bad things" happen because the object will then have a truly ridiculous amount of kinetic energy in a different direction than whatever else happens to be in that new location (but the same relative to the universe), but magical teleportation doesn't work like that. science tells us that since you're displacing air to transport the object, you should be able to displace anything else, and thus willfully teleport an object inside another object (and this can even happen accidentally)... which would likely, in most cases, result in a horrible death for most biological life forms to suddenly have 50 pounds of their mass replaced with something else. magic tells us "no, you can't do that".

Science would say 'why does it take the same amount of energy? Does the method of transporting an object from one point to another without crossing the intervening distance prove to be independent of the mass and distance involved and require the same amount of energy regardless?' Because in your example science doesn't have the means of transporting objects across distances save by the linear transport method and by that method yes it does indeed take more energy to cover greater distances or moving greater mass. Teleportation may not require a variable amount of energy or have means of compensating for differences in potential and kinetic energy.

What we see of magic still qualifies as a science, it's how techno-wizards manage to create things because they have to follow rules. Different rules but still clearly defined rules (use x gem with y spell and z configuration to get this result).

[wyrmraker]

I personally would allow lab-created gemstones for use in techno-wizardy. Structurally, there is no difference between a natural gem and a lab-created one. In addition, it takes a lot of time, effort, and some specialized equipment to manufacture gemstones, and some of the ingredients can't just be found at the corner store.
For game mechanics reasons, I would allow a techno-wizard to make his own, provided he had the proper ingredients and the equipment. But the equipment wouldn't be very portable, the ingredients would be expensive or need to be found, and the energy requirements for the heat generation would be exorbitant (I'm thinking that he'd have to use a pair of 20 year nuclear batteries from giant robots, not powered armors).
But that would be my ruling. Especially when a few of the gems listed don't exist outside of a laboratory. As for diamond and zircon, those might be special cases, and I would rule them as stand-alone cases.

[Shark_Force]

What we see of magic still qualifies as a science, it's how techno-wizards manage to create things because they have to follow rules. Different rules but still clearly defined rules (use x gem with y spell and z configuration to get this result).

but TW devices don't follow rules, at least not completely. you can start off with a set of blueprints for a perfectly functional device... with which you have the basis for you to design a different device which will also function perfectly. you get a bonus to design your own version of a device for working from a set of plans, you do *not* get the ability to just make the device from someone else's plans. why? because it is *not* a science. it's an art, just like other types of magic.

and if all you need to have a science is to be able to ask questions, then anything is a science. for example, "do people born under a certain astrological sign experience certain specific events in their lives?" is a question. apparently, you consider astrology to be a science, based on your reasoning for magic to be a science. as is everything else. under your definition. i doubt the average scientist would particularly appreciate being lumped into the same group as faith-healers, astrologists, fortune tellers, tarot card readers, palm readers, etc, but according to your absurdly vague definition, they're all equally science.

now, magic has certain rules, no question of that. but those rules are not the same rules as the ones that other things operate under. they are not the natural laws of the universe that science has revealed.

[SAMASzero]

I asked myself about this once, and this is what I figured out.

Lab-created gems are structurally identical to natural ones, this is true. I saw no reason for them not to be usable.

Then I got Rifts' Australia (One) and read about the Songjuicer. Then it all clicked.

It's not a matter of process, but a matter of time. A natural gem has had thousands to millions of years of having the natural flow of energy of the world/universe flowing through it. It's effectively "primed" to hold PPE or channel magic. A new, Lab-created Gem is too fresh to use.

So theoretically, it should be able to prime a fresh Lab-made gem so that it can hold or channel magic. IMO, the crudest way to do so would be to bury the gem underneath a ley line or at a Nexus point and let the energy of the line(s) flow through it. But I figure that could take years, decades, or even centuries. Something would have to be devised to rapidly pass PPE through a gem to allow it to use magic.

[Nightmask]

What we see of magic still qualifies as a science, it's how techno-wizards manage to create things because they have to follow rules. Different rules but still clearly defined rules (use x gem with y spell and z configuration to get this result).

but TW devices don't follow rules, at least not completely. you can start off with a set of blueprints for a perfectly functional device... with which you have the basis for you to design a different device which will also function perfectly. you get a bonus to design your own version of a device for working from a set of plans, you do *not* get the ability to just make the device from someone else's plans. why? because it is *not* a science. it's an art, just like other types of magic.

and if all you need to have a science is to be able to ask questions, then anything is a science. for example, "do people born under a certain astrological sign experience certain specific events in their lives?" is a question. apparently, you consider astrology to be a science, based on your reasoning for magic to be a science. as is everything else. under your definition. i doubt the average scientist would particularly appreciate being lumped into the same group as faith-healers, astrologists, fortune tellers, tarot card readers, palm readers, etc, but according to your absurdly vague definition, they're all equally science.

now, magic has certain rules, no question of that. but those rules are not the same rules as the ones that other things operate under. they are not the natural laws of the universe that science has revealed.

No, I don't consider astrology a science, and no one can't derive from my referring to magic as a science that it absurdly means one has to consider astrology a science too. Magic has consistent, reproducible results and one can engage in tests and verifications of magic. It's as often taught 'here do things this way to get this result' which is no different than a chemist going 'mix this with that to get an explosion'. You even have standardized designs available of Techno-Wizard items so apparently they are doing things in a consistent, verifiable way just like any other science. 'Noooo I can't have my magic be a science that would make it so uncool and mundane!' is often the silly argument given to justify the insistence that 'no really magic is different it's not scientific' even when it so obviously is. You even have mages engaging in what is effectively scientific research to learn new spells, modify existing spells, and expand on the limits of what magic can do. All things science does with conventional technology. There is no practical difference between the two.

[Dr Megaverse]

So theoretically, it should be able to prime a fresh Lab-made gem so that it can hold or channel magic. IMO, the crudest way to do so would be to bury the gem underneath a ley line or at a Nexus point and let the energy of the line(s) flow through it. But I figure that could take years, decades, or even centuries. Something would have to be devised to rapidly pass PPE through a gem to allow it to use magic.

Interesting idea!

I ask because I'm writing up a Rifts adventure and I'm trying to make it as cannon friendly as possible, should others care to try it someday. The group trying to use said gems would have access to Golden Age tech, as well as some Three Galaxies tech, the facilities to produce them and also incorporate magic, read TWs.

Assuming that gems OTHER than diamonds and zircons can be used provided they are "charged" in some fashion, what kind of device would have to be built to facilitate this? TW I'm assuming, however I'm at a loss as to which spells might be used for such a device...

[Zer0 Kay]

I can promise you that there's no fundamental physical difference.

If it has to "soak" in PPE for 100,000+ years, would 1 year at a ley line nexus be equivalent?

What's the scientific process for magic? You can't apply the rules of science to something that is outside of science.

It's magic--that's the only explanation we have.

In a reality where magic exists and is in any way repeatable, magic is just another science.

Exactly. Another science, one apart from our science and with it's own set of rules.

I'm confused. Are you saying that magic is a scientific field that doesn't follow any of the rules that are common to all scientific fields? If so, the inherent contradiction present in that statement should be obvious to you.

--flatline

Really so Magic has to follow the laws of gravity? NOPE
So magic has to follow the laws of thermal dynamics? NOPE

Magic doesn't follow the laws of science... it breaks them... because it can.

Fake stones don't work for the same reason that UV rays or even a multi spectrum light that exactly mimics the suns rays don't do anything to vampires.

Fake stones don't work for the same reason that Pepsi One isn't Pepsi... just one calorie Scott... not enough.

If it isn't natural it has no mystic links. If it is conjured through the use of magic, I'd call it natural unless the spell says otherwise.

[Zer0 Kay]

I asked myself about this once, and this is what I figured out.

Lab-created gems are structurally identical to natural ones, this is true. I saw no reason for them not to be usable.

Then I got Rifts' Australia (One) and read about the Songjuicer. Then it all clicked.

It's not a matter of process, but a matter of time. A natural gem has had thousands to millions of years of having the natural flow of energy of the world/universe flowing through it. It's effectively "primed" to hold PPE or channel magic. A new, Lab-created Gem is too fresh to use.

So theoretically, it should be able to prime a fresh Lab-made gem so that it can hold or channel magic. IMO, the crudest way to do so would be to bury the gem underneath a ley line or at a Nexus point and let the energy of the line(s) flow through it. But I figure that could take years, decades, or even centuries. Something would have to be devised to rapidly pass PPE through a gem to allow it to use magic.

Hmm... and maybe forcing PPE into a gem that is not primed (maybe in an attempt to prime it quicker) would cause a catastrophic failure of the crystal? Hmm this is adding interesting fluff for my magebane crystal plant... thanks.

[Zer0 Kay]

So theoretically, it should be able to prime a fresh Lab-made gem so that it can hold or channel magic. IMO, the crudest way to do so would be to bury the gem underneath a ley line or at a Nexus point and let the energy of the line(s) flow through it. But I figure that could take years, decades, or even centuries. Something would have to be devised to rapidly pass PPE through a gem to allow it to use magic.

Interesting idea!

I ask because I'm writing up a Rifts adventure and I'm trying to make it as cannon friendly as possible, should others care to try it someday. The group trying to use said gems would have access to Golden Age tech, as well as some Three Galaxies tech, the facilities to produce them and also incorporate magic, read TWs.

Assuming that gems OTHER than diamonds and zircons can be used provided they are "charged" in some fashion, what kind of device would have to be built to facilitate this? TW I'm assuming, however I'm at a loss as to which spells might be used for such a device...

Talisman and some temporal magic one that slows down the talisman spell so it gradually pumps up the crystal and another that operates over the two spells so it doesn't seem like it takes that long. Or a TW shovel so when you burry the crystal it transports it back in time and you immediately dig it up again and its ready... if someone in the past didn't find it. So there would be a percentage success which basically accounts for something happening. So you get a field where you have workers/robots burrying the stones and trying to dig them up. Chance success should depend on the type of crystal too. Emeralds are fairly fragile almost none are free from defects, most of the ones in jewelry have resin in them to seal the natural fractures. So dimonds would have the greatest percent chance of being found again due to durability but likely least due to value and being found.

Another reason that natural is different from lab grown... less flaws and maybe those flaws are what allow them to do what they do?

[Mack]

In a reality where magic exists and is in any way repeatable, magic is just another science.

Exactly. Another science, one apart from our science and with it's own set of rules.

I'm confused. Are you saying that magic is a scientific field that doesn't follow any of the rules that are common to all scientific fields? If so, the inherent contradiction present in that statement should be obvious to you.

--flatline

Let me try it a different way.

There's the science that we know, and then there's magic which adheres to a different set of rules.

Here's a (poor) analogy: There's the English language that we know, and then there's the Russian language which adheres to a different set of rules.

[flatline]

It would be very satisfying if the laws of physics were special cases of the laws that apply magic. For instance, if the variables that magic brings to the table are zeroed in each equation, then the natural physical laws are the result.

But that's not what I'm claiming is the case in the Palladium universe (although that is the case for Call of Cthulu).

If magic is a scientific field, then it has its own principles (perhaps analogous to the laws of physics, but not necessarily so) that it MUST conform to. If a natural gem works for technowizardry and an artificial gem doesn't, then there must be some qualitative or quantitative difference between the two gems that is testable and well defined according to whatever rules apply to Magic. Once the difference is understood, then perhaps the artificial stone can be treated somehow to make it suitable for technowizardry.

--flatline

[Colt47]

Man made gems will work under the condition that they are forged to function with magic. The logic I've come up with after looking through all the rulings is that something has to have a PPE/ISP circuit to support magic. In most cases, technological processes used on Rifts Earth are not built to create these circuits, which is why lab created gems don't work out of the box.

So, if someone was smart, built a factory on a leyline, and allowed the PPE to flow through the forming gemstone as they are being created, the gem should work just as well as a 100% naturally occurring one. The area would have to be kept clear of significant micro circuitry, but that isn't really a problem given how artificial gems are made.

Not to mention said factory owner would save a ton of credits on electricity, since PPE driven electric generators aren't super rare.

[Zer0 Kay]

It would be very satisfying if the laws of physics were special cases of the laws that apply magic. For instance, if the variables that magic brings to the table are zeroed in each equation, then the natural physical laws are the result.

But that's not what I'm claiming is the case in the Palladium universe (although that is the case for Call of Cthulu).

If magic is a scientific field, then it has its own principles (perhaps analogous to the laws of physics, but not necessarily so) that it MUST conform to. If a natural gem works for technowizardry and an artificial gem doesn't, then there must be some qualitative or quantitative difference between the two gems that is testable and well defined according to whatever rules apply to Magic. Once the difference is understood, then perhaps the artificial stone can be treated somehow to make it suitable for technowizardry.

--flatline

the quantitative difference... the artificial ones can't store PPE.

[flatline]

It would be very satisfying if the laws of physics were special cases of the laws that apply magic. For instance, if the variables that magic brings to the table are zeroed in each equation, then the natural physical laws are the result.

But that's not what I'm claiming is the case in the Palladium universe (although that is the case for Call of Cthulu).

If magic is a scientific field, then it has its own principles (perhaps analogous to the laws of physics, but not necessarily so) that it MUST conform to. If a natural gem works for technowizardry and an artificial gem doesn't, then there must be some qualitative or quantitative difference between the two gems that is testable and well defined according to whatever rules apply to Magic. Once the difference is understood, then perhaps the artificial stone can be treated somehow to make it suitable for technowizardry.

--flatline

the quantitative difference... the artificial ones can't store PPE.

That can be the result, but that can't be the reason. It's the reason that is important. What allows a natural stone to store PPE and why doesn't an artificial stone have it?

--flatline

[Armorlord]

As far as my own games go, I take the comment regarding synthetic diamond and zircon to be referring only to Rifts Earth and less then perfect manufactured stones created via conventional real life methods. More exotic techniques from more advanced societies should work fine, whether the magically grown and shaped crystalline of the Star Elves or advanced nanofabrication. Which I would see as very important to advanced magical societies with commercial and industrial mass manufacture of TW everything, such as the United Worlds of Warlock.

Remember, that blurb is in the same set of data that calls Techno-Wizardry a unique development found only in North America, it is at least a shade off from completely accurate.

As a further aside, it is worth noting that using gems at all is still an odd thing. Out of all the official TW gear, there are only a couple that make any mention of gems. Gold and silver get a lot of mention though.

[azazel1024]

I vote yes to being acceptable.

If not, there wouldn't be a lot of TW gear in the world. Especially without a lot of gemstone mines going on in the post Rifts world, even using some recovered precious stones from pre-rifts times, there is going to be a certain lack of gem stones.

Especially as big as some of the stones need to be in some TW contraptions. Finding 1 carat diamonds might not be too hard. You'd have tens of thousands of pre-rifts engagement rings to pick over (if not millions). However, finding a 5 carat stone for something would be nearly impossible without synthetic creations.

If you want, and I've never thought on this much, I'd say that for a synthetic gem stone, the device has 3/4 of the range/duration/damage/payload as a natural gemstone. Simply reflecting the mysticalness of one created by the earth.

I mean, why not. It imparts some coolness, I guess.

Synthetic gem stones should cost 1/5th normal price (most aren't that hard to make, especially with MDC materials and the kind of anvils that would allow you to make).

[ShadowLogan]

Rifts WB2 Atlantis pg104 in the section on Stone Magic: "Synthetic diamonds and synthetic zircon (man-made) do not work for magic."

So we have a second distinct magic branch that uses gems that is impacted negatively.

[cornholioprime]

So what's the difference between stones made in a lab and those made deep underground?

Chemically and physically, they can be made indistinguishable. Why should technowizardry work with one but not the other?

--flatline

The answer is that the two stones are physically the same, but not magically the same.
Beyond that, there is literally no rhyme or reason whatsoever behind magic's "decision" to accept the one and not the other.

Artificially-produced, full spectrum artificial light that is 100% identical to regular sunlight in every way, might be physically identical to actual sunlight, but not magically identical.

D-Bee blood -even that of D-Bees that are extremely human-looking -is MUCH farther away genetically (and physically/chemically) than the blood of the animals that have always inhabited the planet alongside humans (it's what allows all of us species to eat each other without getting poisoned). Yet, as far as Magic is "concerned," a Vampire can drink and get 'nourishment' from a D-Bee, but none at all from an earth animal -even though it's actually far closer to human blood in terms of makeup.


There is no in-game explanation for TW demands for real stones.
And there is no out-of-game explanation for TW demands for real stones.


A lot of the time, in the Palladium Megaverse, the magic works in certain ways "just because."

[cornholioprime]

I vote yes to being acceptable.

If not, there wouldn't be a lot of TW gear in the world. Especially without a lot of gemstone mines going on in the post Rifts world, even using some recovered precious stones from pre-rifts times, there is going to be a certain lack of gem stones.

Especially as big as some of the stones need to be in some TW contraptions. Finding 1 carat diamonds might not be too hard. You'd have tens of thousands of pre-rifts engagement rings to pick over (if not millions). However, finding a 5 carat stone for something would be nearly impossible without synthetic creations.

If you want, and I've never thought on this much, I'd say that for a synthetic gem stone, the device has 3/4 of the range/duration/damage/payload as a natural gemstone. Simply reflecting the mysticalness of one created by the earth.

I mean, why not. It imparts some coolness, I guess.

Synthetic gem stones should cost 1/5th normal price (most aren't that hard to make, especially with MDC materials and the kind of anvils that would allow you to make).

That doesn't wash as an explanation.

First off, there isn't actually all that much TW gear in the world, especially compared to all the other stuff out there.
Second, even if there was a whole lot of TW gear in the world, it wouldn't matter -Kevin has never really paid attention to the amount of 'stuff' in the world; as far as he has always been concerned, there's enough ______________________ to run whatever person, places, or things that he wants to run, and to hell with the fine, real-world technical details/logistics, he's got a story to tell.

I mean -for just one example -does anybody here REALLY believe that there is enough of the rare radioactive elements to run every single vehicle, power armor, robot, weapon and spaceship they have out there??

[kronos]

Well the boards seem fairly divided about the whole synthetic vs natural gems, although there is a cannon quote saying man-made gems don't work.

Now.. someone mentioned using magic to create the gems might work, but not knowing what spells to use. Maybe this process can make some cheap gems that'll work, but require more of them to get the same result, or only provide half or one-quarter the desired results.
So if we follow this line of thinking, how do we go about doing this? From what I can remember off the top of my head (I did do research into this years ago, and I don't have my Rifts books handy, so bear with me), gems are created (depending on the type of gem) from carbon, or various elements, placed under a great deal of pressure and heat over time. So we need a device that generates great pressure and heat.
So a fire elemental can deal with heat. Maybe an earth elemental can deal with pressure, or some gravity based spell, one that can increase gravity (I'm sure there's one somewhere). These two elementals direct their power into a chamber with the carbon in it, like graphite or coal, and you get a gem after awhile. In theory. Or use high level spell casters with the proper spells.

Something that I remember is synthetic gems can also have various intentional 'flaws' which allow for different 'effects' to happen to the gem. Like introducing boron or something. So if these 'flawed' gems now have different or added properties, like able to channel electricity due to some copper 'flaws' introduced into the process, and with magic flowing into the chamber to create the synthetic gem, the new created gem might get a bonus ability that's electricity based?

Hell, even if you don't allow synthetic gems to be used in techno-wizard devices, you can sell custom made gems for used in various devices, like radar systems, computer systems (quantum computers), laser focusing chambers. These types of gems could be designed for greater range, more damage, better critical range (natural 19-20 or even 18-20 maybe?), or something else.

Just my 2 creds.

[Nightmask]

Well the boards seem fairly divided about the whole synthetic vs natural gems, although there is a cannon quote saying man-made gems don't work.

Now.. someone mentioned using magic to create the gems might work, but not knowing what spells to use. Maybe this process can make some cheap gems that'll work, but require more of them to get the same result, or only provide half or one-quarter the desired results.
So if we follow this line of thinking, how do we go about doing this? From what I can remember off the top of my head (I did do research into this years ago, and I don't have my Rifts books handy, so bear with me), gems are created (depending on the type of gem) from carbon, or various elements, placed under a great deal of pressure and heat over time. So we need a device that generates great pressure and heat.
So a fire elemental can deal with heat. Maybe an earth elemental can deal with pressure, or some gravity based spell, one that can increase gravity (I'm sure there's one somewhere). These two elementals direct their power into a chamber with the carbon in it, like graphite or coal, and you get a gem after awhile. In theory. Or use high level spell casters with the proper spells.

Something that I remember is synthetic gems can also have various intentional 'flaws' which allow for different 'effects' to happen to the gem. Like introducing boron or something. So if these 'flawed' gems now have different or added properties, like able to channel electricity due to some copper 'flaws' introduced into the process, and with magic flowing into the chamber to create the synthetic gem, the new created gem might get a bonus ability that's electricity based?

Hell, even if you don't allow synthetic gems to be used in techno-wizard devices, you can sell custom made gems for used in various devices, like radar systems, computer systems (quantum computers), laser focusing chambers. These types of gems could be designed for greater range, more damage, better critical range (natural 19-20 or even 18-20 maybe?), or something else.

Just my 2 creds.

Palladium's rules as they currently stand don't support anyone, PC or NPC, producing synthetic gems that can work for magical purposes or custom make them with special magical or non-magical properties. It's a great idea though, having a TW building a gem-producing device that could custom create gems to meet any particular need the TW has.

[cornholioprime]

.....Now.. someone mentioned using magic to create the gems might work, but not knowing what spells to use. Maybe this process can make some cheap gems that'll work, but require more of them to get the same result, or only provide half or one-quarter the desired results.

Kevin is at least one step ahead of us in this regard, even if one is of the mind that conjuring/creating something brings into existence a completely natural, magic-compatible object (there's absolutely nothing in the texts that say one way or the other, at least as far as I know; house-rule either way is OK as far as I'm concerned).

Conjured Objects exist temporarily in most cases.
Making them exist permanently typically involves the permanent donation of HP/SDC/MDC/PPE on the part of the spell caster.

See Rifts Book of Magic, page 53-54.

[azazel1024]

For radioactives, yes there is enough and more than enough.

You don't have every single person running around in a vehicle powered by a nuclear reactor. You have most military vehicles powered by one and a lot of other stuff.

Lets assume efficiency has doubled by post rifts times. The US produces 806.2TWh of nuclear power each year as of 2011. If you assume there are a million nuclear powered vehicles in North America as of Post Rifts (which equates to anything from about 1 in 15 to 1 in 50 people/Dbees having a nuclear powered vehicle depending on the numbers for population you want, and factor in all those with no vehicles, or gas powered or electric vehicles)...you actually have a resonable number.

806.2 divided by a million is 806,200 kw/hr per vehicle of power production. That works out to 2,208KWh a day or ~92KW of power production 24/7/365 for each of those million vehicles. That is about 130HP if you convert it in to Imperial units.

So...actually, yeah, there are plenty of fissionables around to power the "nuclear economy" of post-Rifts Earth and then some. Now, is there realistically enough access to fissionables to power it. That is another potential question as I don't know of much in the way of Uranium or Thorium mines in the area that the CS supposedly controls.

[cornholioprime]

For radioactives, yes there is enough and more than enough.

You don't have every single person running around in a vehicle powered by a nuclear reactor. You have most military vehicles powered by one and a lot of other stuff.

Lets assume efficiency has doubled by post rifts times. The US produces 806.2TWh of nuclear power each year as of 2011. If you assume there are a million nuclear powered vehicles in North America as of Post Rifts (which equates to anything from about 1 in 15 to 1 in 50 people/Dbees having a nuclear powered vehicle depending on the numbers for population you want, and factor in all those with no vehicles, or gas powered or electric vehicles)...you actually have a resonable number.

806.2 divided by a million is 806,200 kw/hr per vehicle of power production. That works out to 2,208KWh a day or ~92KW of power production 24/7/365 for each of those million vehicles. That is about 130HP if you convert it in to Imperial units.

So...actually, yeah, there are plenty of fissionables around to power the "nuclear economy" of post-Rifts Earth and then some. Now, is there realistically enough access to fissionables to power it. That is another potential question as I don't know of much in the way of Uranium or Thorium mines in the area that the CS supposedly controls.

I don't know whether or not your numbers are correct or not, and therefore of course I (we) don't know whether or not that would be true in Rifts Earth, the fact of the matter remains that calculating how much of something there needs to be in the world to run/supply/sustain _____________, isn't exactly something that Kevin is concerned about, one way or the other.

Whether we are talking about the amount of fissile material that we'd need to run everything, or the amount of material that would need to be present and/or introduced to maintain the Counter-Orbital Debris Field, or any number of other things, Kevin is interested in Setting/Story first and physiology/physics/logistics second.

[Zer0 Kay]

As far as my own games go, I take the comment regarding synthetic diamond and zircon to be referring only to Rifts Earth and less then perfect manufactured stones created via conventional real life methods. More exotic techniques from more advanced societies should work fine, whether the magically grown and shaped crystalline of the Star Elves or advanced nanofabrication. Which I would see as very important to advanced magical societies with commercial and industrial mass manufacture of TW everything, such as the United Worlds of Warlock.

Remember, that blurb is in the same set of data that calls Techno-Wizardry a unique development found only in North America, it is at least a shade off from completely accurate.

As a further aside, it is worth noting that using gems at all is still an odd thing. Out of all the official TW gear, there are only a couple that make any mention of gems. Gold and silver get a lot of mention though.

You do realize that labgrown diamonds are more "perfect" than the natural stuff that does hold PPE right?

[Zer0 Kay]

It would be very satisfying if the laws of physics were special cases of the laws that apply magic. For instance, if the variables that magic brings to the table are zeroed in each equation, then the natural physical laws are the result.

But that's not what I'm claiming is the case in the Palladium universe (although that is the case for Call of Cthulu).

If magic is a scientific field, then it has its own principles (perhaps analogous to the laws of physics, but not necessarily so) that it MUST conform to. If a natural gem works for technowizardry and an artificial gem doesn't, then there must be some qualitative or quantitative difference between the two gems that is testable and well defined according to whatever rules apply to Magic. Once the difference is understood, then perhaps the artificial stone can be treated somehow to make it suitable for technowizardry.

--flatline

the quantitative difference... the artificial ones can't store PPE.

That can be the result, but that can't be the reason. It's the reason that is important. What allows a natural stone to store PPE and why doesn't an artificial stone have it?

--flatline

Then there is likely nothing that the physical sciences can detect in it. It could be because the real gem is connected to the elemental plane while the artificial one is not. That is absolutely NOT canon though.

[flatline]

It would be very satisfying if the laws of physics were special cases of the laws that apply magic. For instance, if the variables that magic brings to the table are zeroed in each equation, then the natural physical laws are the result.

But that's not what I'm claiming is the case in the Palladium universe (although that is the case for Call of Cthulu).

If magic is a scientific field, then it has its own principles (perhaps analogous to the laws of physics, but not necessarily so) that it MUST conform to. If a natural gem works for technowizardry and an artificial gem doesn't, then there must be some qualitative or quantitative difference between the two gems that is testable and well defined according to whatever rules apply to Magic. Once the difference is understood, then perhaps the artificial stone can be treated somehow to make it suitable for technowizardry.

--flatline

the quantitative difference... the artificial ones can't store PPE.

That can be the result, but that can't be the reason. It's the reason that is important. What allows a natural stone to store PPE and why doesn't an artificial stone have it?

--flatline

Then there is likely nothing that the physical sciences can detect in it. It could be because the real gem is connected to the elemental plane while the artificial one is not. That is absolutely NOT canon though.

Presumably there's some way for a technowizard to tell if stones are suitable before he creates his device.

--flatline

[azazel1024]

For radioactives, yes there is enough and more than enough.

You don't have every single person running around in a vehicle powered by a nuclear reactor. You have most military vehicles powered by one and a lot of other stuff.

Lets assume efficiency has doubled by post rifts times. The US produces 806.2TWh of nuclear power each year as of 2011. If you assume there are a million nuclear powered vehicles in North America as of Post Rifts (which equates to anything from about 1 in 15 to 1 in 50 people/Dbees having a nuclear powered vehicle depending on the numbers for population you want, and factor in all those with no vehicles, or gas powered or electric vehicles)...you actually have a resonable number.

806.2 divided by a million is 806,200 kw/hr per vehicle of power production. That works out to 2,208KWh a day or ~92KW of power production 24/7/365 for each of those million vehicles. That is about 130HP if you convert it in to Imperial units.

So...actually, yeah, there are plenty of fissionables around to power the "nuclear economy" of post-Rifts Earth and then some. Now, is there realistically enough access to fissionables to power it. That is another potential question as I don't know of much in the way of Uranium or Thorium mines in the area that the CS supposedly controls.

I don't know whether or not your numbers are correct or not, and therefore of course I (we) don't know whether or not that would be true in Rifts Earth, the fact of the matter remains that calculating how much of something there needs to be in the world to run/supply/sustain _____________, isn't exactly something that Kevin is concerned about, one way or the other.

Whether we are talking about the amount of fissile material that we'd need to run everything, or the amount of material that would need to be present and/or introduced to maintain the Counter-Orbital Debris Field, or any number of other things, Kevin is interested in Setting/Story first and not physiology/physics/logistics second.

Fixed it for you

[cornholioprime]

For radioactives, yes there is enough and more than enough.

You don't have every single person running around in a vehicle powered by a nuclear reactor. You have most military vehicles powered by one and a lot of other stuff.

Lets assume efficiency has doubled by post rifts times. The US produces 806.2TWh of nuclear power each year as of 2011. If you assume there are a million nuclear powered vehicles in North America as of Post Rifts (which equates to anything from about 1 in 15 to 1 in 50 people/Dbees having a nuclear powered vehicle depending on the numbers for population you want, and factor in all those with no vehicles, or gas powered or electric vehicles)...you actually have a resonable number.

806.2 divided by a million is 806,200 kw/hr per vehicle of power production. That works out to 2,208KWh a day or ~92KW of power production 24/7/365 for each of those million vehicles. That is about 130HP if you convert it in to Imperial units.

So...actually, yeah, there are plenty of fissionables around to power the "nuclear economy" of post-Rifts Earth and then some. Now, is there realistically enough access to fissionables to power it. That is another potential question as I don't know of much in the way of Uranium or Thorium mines in the area that the CS supposedly controls.

I don't know whether or not your numbers are correct or not, and therefore of course I (we) don't know whether or not that would be true in Rifts Earth, the fact of the matter remains that calculating how much of something there needs to be in the world to run/supply/sustain _____________, isn't exactly something that Kevin is concerned about, one way or the other.

Whether we are talking about the amount of fissile material that we'd need to run everything, or the amount of material that would need to be present and/or introduced to maintain the Counter-Orbital Debris Field, or any number of other things, Kevin is interested in Setting/Story first and not physiology/physics/logistics second.

Fixed it for you

Yeah, that's a pretty much spot-on correction.

[Zer0 Kay]

It would be very satisfying if the laws of physics were special cases of the laws that apply magic. For instance, if the variables that magic brings to the table are zeroed in each equation, then the natural physical laws are the result.

But that's not what I'm claiming is the case in the Palladium universe (although that is the case for Call of Cthulu).

If magic is a scientific field, then it has its own principles (perhaps analogous to the laws of physics, but not necessarily so) that it MUST conform to. If a natural gem works for technowizardry and an artificial gem doesn't, then there must be some qualitative or quantitative difference between the two gems that is testable and well defined according to whatever rules apply to Magic. Once the difference is understood, then perhaps the artificial stone can be treated somehow to make it suitable for technowizardry.

--flatline

the quantitative difference... the artificial ones can't store PPE.

That can be the result, but that can't be the reason. It's the reason that is important. What allows a natural stone to store PPE and why doesn't an artificial stone have it?

--flatline

Then there is likely nothing that the physical sciences can detect in it. It could be because the real gem is connected to the elemental plane while the artificial one is not. That is absolutely NOT canon though.

Presumably there's some way for a technowizard to tell if stones are suitable before he creates his device.

--flatline

It couldn't possibly be by seeing if it takes PPE or not could it? Nooooooooo, couldn't possibly be, because that is just the desired result, not the way they can check. No one has EVER checked the final quality of an object they desire by checking the same quality before they refine it right.

[Galroth]

If you are just looking for cheap stones to use just substitute industrial grade diamonds for jewelery grade. Save yourself a ton of credits since both are formed naturally and therefore qualify for use in techno-wizard items.

[llywelyn]

Lab-created gems are structurally identical to natural ones, this is true. I saw no reason for them not to be usable.

Then I got Rifts' Australia (One) and read about the Songjuicer. Then it all clicked.

Assuming you're not going in for the handwavium the setting is actually built with, This.

There's some magical phlogiston that seeps into the stuff. You could try priming them by burial under a nexus, but you're risking fragility and critical failures.

[The Beast]

That can be the result, but that can't be the reason. It's the reason that is important. What allows a natural stone to store PPE and why doesn't an artificial stone have it?

--flatline

Time...

[The Beast]

I vote yes to being acceptable.

If not, there wouldn't be a lot of TW gear in the world. Especially without a lot of gemstone mines going on in the post Rifts world, even using some recovered precious stones from pre-rifts times, there is going to be a certain lack of gem stones.

Especially as big as some of the stones need to be in some TW contraptions. Finding 1 carat diamonds might not be too hard. You'd have tens of thousands of pre-rifts engagement rings to pick over (if not millions). However, finding a 5 carat stone for something would be nearly impossible without synthetic creations.

If you want, and I've never thought on this much, I'd say that for a synthetic gem stone, the device has 3/4 of the range/duration/damage/payload as a natural gemstone. Simply reflecting the mysticalness of one created by the earth.

I mean, why not. It imparts some coolness, I guess.

Synthetic gem stones should cost 1/5th normal price (most aren't that hard to make, especially with MDC materials and the kind of anvils that would allow you to make).

From my understanding, alot of stones used today are synthetic.

[Zer0 Kay]

Lab-created gems are structurally identical to natural ones, this is true. I saw no reason for them not to be usable.

Then I got Rifts' Australia (One) and read about the Songjuicer. Then it all clicked.

Assuming you're not going in for the handwavium the setting is actually built with, This.

There's some magical phlogiston that seeps into the stuff. You could try priming them by burial under a nexus, but you're risking fragility and critical failures.

yeah cuz there is non-handwavium magic.