Keeping MD/MDC rare in Rifts campaigns

[flatline]

I didn't want to derail another thread, so I lifted this post:

If MD weapons and MDC armor are truly rare, then magic and super psionics become dramatically more powerful.

I've never played a campaign where MDC was rare, so I can't actually attest to how that changes the feel of the game.

--flatline

Using md/mdc as Rare adds to the fun of the game alot. Never knowing if someone is a hidden mage or psychic or mutant with access to md powers adds to the uncertanly of the setting. Never knowing if this or that Cyborg is sdc or mdc material also adds an air of unknown horror and mystery to an encounter.

Don't most characters start with MD/MDC equipment?
How do you keep MD/MDC rare once the campaign starts?
What incentives do mages, psychics, and others with MD/MDC powers have to hide their abilities?
How do you keep SD/SDC the norm once the party is fully outfitted with MD/MDC equipment?

I'm struggling to understand how a campaign can begin and remain low powered enough that SC/SDC stays the norm and MD/MDC is the exception.

--flatline

[Proseksword]

In the last RIFTs campaign I ran, the arguably most useful player was the Mind Melter, who wore only light MD armor and carried a simple laser rifle. Despite the rest of the party being a Glitter Boy, another Power Armor (Samson), an Operator, and a combat Cyborg, the Mind Melter regularly dealt with threats to the party with her use of Bio-Manipulation and Telekinesis, and was rarely targeted for attack, because her appearance was plain and unthreatening.

She was able to easily appear to be a random bystander while crippling most of the opposing enemies the party encountered. Granted, she wore MD armor as a sensible precaution, but in most of the parties engagements, she could have just as soon gone without it.

I think the key to having S.D.C. remain relevent in your parties scenarios is having encounters face-to-face in towns and cities where MD weapons are typically restricted or banned, and having encounters with hostile opponents be unexpected and catch your players off-guard. A Glitter Boy pilot isn't going to live in his suit, he's going to get out, go to the bathroom, eat, sleep, and he isn't doing any of that while wearing MD armor. Woe be to him to be snuck up on by a guy with a shotgun while he's out to the john, or held up in a town by a common street thug.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'll give my 2 cents:

Don't most characters start with MD/MDC equipment?

Most, but not necessarily all.
Also, the GM can change the equipment as desired.
Also also, equipment can be destroyed, confiscated, stolen, or otherwise removed from the equation.

How do you keep MD/MDC rare once the campaign starts?

Maybe elaborate on this one, because my initial response is "you just don't use it as often."

What incentives do mages, psychics, and others with MD/MDC powers have to hide their abilities?

Seems like an odd question.
Sometimes they don't have any incentive to hide their abilities.
Other times, they have any number of incentives.

How do you keep SD/SDC the norm once the party is fully outfitted with MD/MDC equipment?

By having them be the guys in MDC armor with MD weapons wandering around through a primarily SDC world.

I'm struggling to understand how a campaign can begin and remain low powered enough that SC/SDC stays the norm and MD/MDC is the exception.

--flatline

You can have the characters be exceptional.


Not sure if any of that helped.

[Proseksword]

You can have the characters be exceptional.


Not sure if any of that helped.

I do believe that was Mr. Siembieda's intention when he expressed that M.D. weaponry was rare in the original book. I don't think the idea was "there's no M.D. weaponry hardly anywhere, and good luck even repairing or replacing the armor you lose". I think what was originally intended was that if player characters encountered a wilderness settlement, there might be a couple of guys with laser rifles and some basic hodge-podge M.D.C. armor, and the player characters would seem like gods to them. It was intended to discourage the idea that the average village had a militia of six power armor and a hundred men in Bushman armor with laser rifles and rail guns.

The idea was much more "don't let the background NPCs prevent the players from taking center stage and being heroes.", not "your players should have their MDC equipment lost, sabotaged, or stolen almost immediately and find themselves wallowing in the mud hiding from a madman with a Wilk's Laser Scapel."

[Akashic Soldier]

The short answer is by keeping most of the adventures within the bounds of Chi-Town or another Coalition City and running a Fringe/CSI style game where the PC's are trying to track down a supernatural menace or killer.

Because MDC weapons are illegal within the city only the military have them and so whereas the PC's can get access to them they need to do so via registration and as a case by case situation to avoid needless collateral damage (leading to the fun adventure where they CAN'T get MD weapon clearance because they dont have enough evidence and STILL have to deal with a serious MD threat that is keeping of CS radar within the bounds of the city.)

Also policing the use of MD can even apply to Magic Users, there are few SDC attack spells. You don't NEED to be dealing Mega Damage and equally in a Sorcerer-City you might be able to rule that like their CS counterpart Mega Damage is outlawed except when used by trained military professionals and use within residential (or other sectors) of their city/realm is punishable by death (or having your hands removed and mouth sealed while full of hot coals -- they are wizards after all).

The REAL problem comes down to Mega Damage Capacity more than inflicting Mega Damage. Mega Damage creatures and Armour make it next to impossible to make the game challenging for your PCs (in combat) if they do not have MD weapons so traveling the world of Rifts suddenly becomes an impossibility unless you keep them to farming communities settled by humans or other humanoid creatures (like Orcs or Orgres or one of the many various D-Bee's in North America) but the thing to remember is that MD IS uncommon to most people.

The problem is that criminals are going to steal it, monsters are going to dish it out, and the military and mercenary groups have it.

If the players are actively trying to be apart of a society... most of the time they can't. Heck, I've often wondered what happens to the poor Full Conversion Cyborg, is he just not allowed into the city?

The other big thing to remember is that most people can handle shooting someone... but watching them burst from microwaves or explode into chunks of gore is unsettling to most even in the grisly world of Rifts. Sure sometimes it means that when a Cardiac Bear (it is a bear made out of sinew, muscle, and bone and its whole body throbs like a beating heart -- I just made it up) bursts out of the wood and attacks the farmer his trusty rifle isn't going to do a lot and the rampaging MD creature will take what it wants from his live stock, kill anyone in its path, and all he and his family can do... is hide in the shelter and hope it goes away or the Coalition shows up to save his ass.

Unless of course he's been doing this for years and has some old weapons that've been passed down through the family over the years (not unlikely) or he had the foresight enough to prepare for a rainy day and spend all that extra money he made from that years good yield that he thought to grab himself a Wilk's Laser Rifle and was prepared. Its a rough life and if nothing else the thing to remember is Mega Damage weapon and armor is expensive.

The average worker earns 40 credits on a bad day and 90 credits on a good day of work and getting MD stuff normally requires being able to legally purchase it (not as common as you'd think) or have the ability to Find Contraband which again is a very small part of society. Plus if you can't navigate the criminal underworld in most places they'll just take your money and then do away with you and leave your faceless body in a ditch with your finger prints burnt off and so much DNA scaring that the most sophisticated computers in Atlantis wouldn't be able to tell who you were.

And of course then there is the fear and the paranoia that comes with people who carry these weapons.

My players hide their MD weapons and are reluctant to use them because I give to much attention to how they kill and how much damage they do when they miss. They might as well be throwing around grenades for the most part. The exception is our Ley Line Walker who seems to resort to Sith Lightning Called Shots ("He's trying to rip me off!! I blow off his leg!") if he thinks that he is justified and can get away with it.

One time a player cried because he used his Vibro-Katana and made a called shot for an antagonists SDC head while inches from his face while screaming a Ki-Shout and got some of the guys skull and brain in their character's mouth as his head was sawed apart like so much carnage-ridden saw dust.

Mega Damage is nasty and should not be taken lightly.

[DhAkael]

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2490881#p2490881
The above being said, MDC armour? Well; the common mook may have some Fury-beetle plates or Tri-top hide leathers to keep their internal organs from being blasted into mist... but for the most part, they MAY have an MDC weapon, they may NOT have MDC protection.

Hiding behind a boulder or tree will NOT save them.
Going into water (especialy if someone uses plasma) will get the person cooked.

So the USE of weapons in general, unless it is as adventurers OR in worst case scenarios vs. beasties that can only do close combat (cardiac bear anyone), will be quite restricted.
Cuz Farmer Joe does not want Sid-the-Squid interdimensional mafia enforcer to take notice and level that 2cm bore man-portable particle beam cannon at him. Farmer Joe will hide away until he can get a lucky shot (hopefully) at Sid's un-armoured face (as e-clips are expensive...in canon at least... to recharge).

But I'm not going to get into a 30 thread-post argument with people over this... read my [censored] mantra and run the game how YOU want; do NOT try and tell me how to run MY, or anyone elses, game.

[Grell]

"your players should have their MDC equipment lost, sabotaged, or stolen almost immediately and find themselves wallowing in the mud hiding from a madman with a Wilk's Laser Scapel."

This sounds like the most epic filler adventure EVER.

[Killer Cyborg]

You can have the characters be exceptional.


Not sure if any of that helped.

I do believe that was Mr. Siembieda's intention when he expressed that M.D. weaponry was rare in the original book. I don't think the idea was "there's no M.D. weaponry hardly anywhere, and good luck even repairing or replacing the armor you lose". I think what was originally intended was that if player characters encountered a wilderness settlement, there might be a couple of guys with laser rifles and some basic hodge-podge M.D.C. armor, and the player characters would seem like gods to them. It was intended to discourage the idea that the average village had a militia of six power armor and a hundred men in Bushman armor with laser rifles and rail guns.

Yup.

The idea was much more "don't let the background NPCs prevent the players from taking center stage and being heroes.", not "your players should have their MDC equipment lost, sabotaged, or stolen almost immediately and find themselves wallowing in the mud hiding from a madman with a Wilk's Laser Scapel."

True, but that would be a cool adventure!

In general, the feeling should be like a lot of Anime. Ninja Scroll comes to mind (only without the rape scenes).
Our three heroes, and the key villains that they face, are all supreme badasses.
They can cut through ordinary people, even your average ninja clan, like they were nothing.
The main adventure comes when all these badasses run into each other and fight, and getting TO the enemy to fight them.
Or, sometimes, just outsmarting them.

[Grell]

Yes.

[Bill]

I haven't done a rare MDC game, yet. If I do try one, I will enforce rarity by making most MDC armor and megadamage weapons available only through sponsoring governments with harsh penalties for persons possessing contraband weapons and armor. So the players would basically start off as outlaws that risk imprisonment or execution if they attempt to enter one of the larger human settlements without first stashing their gear. That would also place a much greater emphasis on black market deals and clandestine operator shops. I think this kind of game has a lot of potential, but I also think it would be a lot less over the top than most players expect from Rifts.

[Akashic Soldier]

I haven't done a rare MDC game, yet. If I do try one, I will enforce rarity by making most MDC armor and megadamage weapons available only through sponsoring governments with harsh penalties for persons possessing contraband weapons and armor. So the players would basically start off as outlaws that risk imprisonment or execution if they attempt to enter one of the larger human settlements without first stashing their gear. That would also place a much greater emphasis on black market deals and clandestine operator shops. I think this kind of game has a lot of potential, but I also think it would be a lot less over the top than most players expect from Rifts.

They could in theory pay for registration but they wouldnt be allowed their gear in major cities and depending on who they have to hand it over to they might not always get it back. It wouldnt surprise me if stuff goes missing from weapons lockers all the time.

[Dr. Doom III]

MD/MDC stuff is rare but PC's are rare too.

[llywelyn]

How do you keep MD/MDC rare once the campaign starts?

It's military tech similar to machine guns and cruise missiles. Confiscate everyone's who isn't wearing a uniform and have any MD-packing AWOLs chased down fast.

Australia already does this. Just impliment it worldwide.

What incentives do mages, psychics, and others with MD/MDC powers have to hide their abilities?

Nix those.

There's no reason for a dinosaur to be MDC when horses and houses aren't.

How do you keep SD/SDC the norm once the party is fully outfitted with MD/MDC equipment?

Once they are?

Well, aside from clawing it back, everyone's SDC except for the military chasing them across creation. Plus, magic still has plenty of illusionistic and manipulative effects to play with.

[TechnoGothic]

I didn't want to derail another thread, so I lifted this post:

Don't most characters start with MD/MDC equipment?
How do you keep MD/MDC rare once the campaign starts?
What incentives do mages, psychics, and others with MD/MDC powers have to hide their abilities?
How do you keep SD/SDC the norm once the party is fully outfitted with MD/MDC equipment?

I'm struggling to understand how a campaign can begin and remain low powered enough that SC/SDC stays the norm and MD/MDC is the exception.

--flatline

RAW = Yes, unless you wish to limit the equipment.
Just by not having it everywhere or even needed. If most building and towns are sdc wood, and concret still, would you want people with md weapon carrying the things ?
Mages and Psychics could be Showy or Subtle as they wish to be. I allow SDC versions of certain spells to be available too. The Mega-Spells are Rarer to learn, as they wish to keep them secret and to them selves. Psychics. Its all Self-taught. Others with md/mdc powers. Its a case by case thing usually.

"How do you keep SD/SDC the norm once the party is fully outfitted with MD/MDC equipment?"
Easy. How Common place are Bazookas, Tanks, Fighter-jets today ? A Village with a single MD Laser pistol or MD-Laser Rifle is not common. Heck most would SD-Lasers or just Normal Bullets rather that Mega-tech. I don't have Hundreds or Thousands or Millions of MD-Monsters or Dbees running around either.

I eventual went to using HU2, Fantasy, etc...for all my rules, turning Rifts into another sdc setting. Where Military Grade Anti-tank weapons are just rare as they are today. With Militaries and the rare Merc group with them. Removing the md aspect from Rifts has made the setting fit the original fluff much better IMHO but YMMV. I can use people using spells, psi-powers, rifles, armors, while deadly, does not force me reinforce my characters with Tank Armor level protection or have every village or town using MDC concret or TW magic somehow. The Dragon while Mighty is not invulnerable anymore, and simple villagers can try to kill them if they wish to, without spending 10-20 years of their money on Military Anti-tank weapons.

Most Town or Villages In my games are around late 19th Centry era to 17th Centry era in their Tech now. Which is what RMB assumes most of NA is like. CS Cities and Mega-cities are the exception, The Mega-Cities would have Military Level weapons and equipment. Because they have the resources to build or buy them.

PCs are suppose to be one of the Exceptional or Elites. Somehow they have Military weapons even if their Job or background would say noway jose' to the idea. Me, I removed the MD concept so simple concepts such as Scholars, Doctors, made more sense to be around outside Mega-Cities.

[Balabanto]

I kinda run the game a little differently, where "There's no such thing as an NPC." This keeps players on their toes too, and is just as effective. It also makes people think twice before drawing a weapon and just randomly smiting people. My players negotiate a lot when they can. If you want to be amazing heroes, you'll face amazingly heroic level bad guys who want to do really crazy, badass things.

The catch is making this believable in the setting of rifts. Can two super-badass groups have a showdown over the only potable water well within ten miles? Yes! And this stuff SHOULD happen. The flip side of being powerful when everyone is powerful is this. There isn't enough social territory to go around. Conflicts like the Coalition vs. the Federation of Magic spill over onto Joe Farmer. And if Joe Farmer is a goodly soul who just happens to be a d-bee, he's hosed both ways. Put the players into situations where all their firepower won't help them. Sure, you can blast the living daylights out of both sets of bad guys (And chances are, most PC's will choose this route, although they may not survive.), but you have to make adventures where the priority of the adventure is not just beating people up. This isn't to say that you shouldn't have adventures where the PC's get to beat people up, but most adventures I run tend to be a little more complicated than basic slugfests.

The reason why I tend to let the MD ball fall where it lies is this. Champions has the best combat system. It has the best chargen rules set for superheroes. D+D/Pathfinder is the best system for fantasy so far.

So why would I run Rifts this way?

Rifts has the best fluff. Rifts makes supplements the way they did in the old days, with a ton of cool NPC's, awesome backstories, and details that make roleplaying in the world fun. That's why. If you don't use the fluff, you're wasting your gaming experience. So using the fluff (Or at least, it's atmosphere) makes the gaming experience more fun. You can run Rifts without the fluff, but it's not as much fun, at least for me.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i blame the authors of the books and they need to try to out do each other, there isnt no need for half the stuff to be MDC.

[Proseksword]

I hear you Balabanto. The way I tend to run RIFTs, the characters are less of superheros and are more of elite agents. I tend to run my campaigns in the more MDC heavy regions of the world, and I've never really had a problem with the amped power level. I feel like MD armed PCs in a mostly SDC world goes to the players heads real quick and they just conquer towns and screw off instead of adventuring. That's not a particularly enjoyable experience for any of us.

[jaymz]

In this day and age, in Rifts, anything bigger than a homestead/farmstead, in my opinion, will likely have a Sheriff in which the town/village paid for, or at least helped pay for, at least light MDC armour and an MD laser pistol. Most of these villages/towns trade with someone, usually bigger towns, in the way of goods or services and would, again in my opinion, allow them to at least get one person worth of minor MD/MDC equipment. Now it isn't likely new top of the line gear either. It is probably many years old and passed on form one sheriff to the next as the case may be.

Mind you I also get annoyed with GMs who actually think there are MDC monsters behind every tree when there isn't. If there was there would be no villages or small towns as all these monsters would have over run them a long time ago.

[flatline]

Sure, you can blast the living daylights out of both sets of bad guys (And chances are, most PC's will choose this route, although they may not survive.)

This statement bothers me a little. Why would the PCs choose a fight they don't expect to win?

Is it that they don't bother to estimate their odds before starting the fight?

--flatline

[jaymz]

Sure, you can blast the living daylights out of both sets of bad guys (And chances are, most PC's will choose this route, although they may not survive.)

This statement bothers me a little. Why would the PCs choose a fight they don't expect to win?

Is it that they don't bother to estimate their odds before starting the fight?

--flatline

It may be a caught in the crossfire scenario in which the only option is to fight their way out if they can?

[Killer Cyborg]

I kinda run the game a little differently, where "There's no such thing as an NPC." This keeps players on their toes too, and is just as effective. It also makes people think twice before drawing a weapon and just randomly smiting people. My players negotiate a lot when they can. If you want to be amazing heroes, you'll face amazingly heroic level bad guys who want to do really crazy, badass things.

I think that you have a different definition of "NPC" from most people.

[Killer Cyborg]

personally i blame the authors of the books and they need to try to out do each other, there isnt no need for half the stuff to be MDC.

Word.
The new books keep using the old top-of-the-line as the standard of power, because the writer want their pet badasses to be a little better than previous pet badasses from previous writers.

[jaymz]

personally i blame the authors of the books and they need to try to out do each other, there isnt no need for half the stuff to be MDC.

Word.
The new books keep using the old top-of-the-line as the standard of power, because the writer want their pet badasses to be a little better than previous pet badasses from previous writers.

Isn't that something that should be vetted during the so called "editing" process? We know for a fact Kevin himself will tone down stats as indicated by Galactus Kid and things he has said about some of the editing done to Triax 2 and that being the case shouldn't the blame then fall to Kevin not the original authors of the manuscripts?

[Killer Cyborg]

personally i blame the authors of the books and they need to try to out do each other, there isnt no need for half the stuff to be MDC.

Word.
The new books keep using the old top-of-the-line as the standard of power, because the writer want their pet badasses to be a little better than previous pet badasses from previous writers.

Isn't that something that should be vetted during the so called "editing" process? We know for a fact Kevin himself will tone down stats as indicated by Galactus Kid and things he has said about some of the editing done to Triax 2 and that being the case shouldn't the blame then fall to Kevin not the original authors of the manuscripts?

I think that there's plenty of blame to go around.

[jaymz]

personally i blame the authors of the books and they need to try to out do each other, there isnt no need for half the stuff to be MDC.

Word.
The new books keep using the old top-of-the-line as the standard of power, because the writer want their pet badasses to be a little better than previous pet badasses from previous writers.

Isn't that something that should be vetted during the so called "editing" process? We know for a fact Kevin himself will tone down stats as indicated by Galactus Kid and things he has said about some of the editing done to Triax 2 and that being the case shouldn't the blame then fall to Kevin not the original authors of the manuscripts?

I think that there's plenty of blame to go around.

I guess that is where I differ from most people that make things up. I make them plausible not over the top best thing around. That is in fact one of the reasons I by and large stopped bothering with a lot of fan sites. Stuff that was being created just maded you think "why hasn't this kingdom or corporation taken over the continent yet?"

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess that is where I differ from most people that make things up. I make them plausible not over the top best thing around. That is in fact one of the reasons I by and large stopped bothering with a lot of fan sites. Stuff that was being created just maded you think "why hasn't this kingdom or corporation taken over the continent yet?"

Exactly.

[jaymz]

I guess that is where I differ from most people that make things up. I make them plausible not over the top best thing around. That is in fact one of the reasons I by and large stopped bothering with a lot of fan sites. Stuff that was being created just maded you think "why hasn't this kingdom or corporation taken over the continent yet?"

Exactly.

I keep forgetting you're one of the people has seen more of the stuff I make/convert than most

[Armorlord]

As I've said on other occasions, I firmly believe in keeping MD gear as a rarity world-wise. However I hold that the starting gear of player characters is the gear that sets them apart from their fellows. Getting that MD gear, conversion, magical training, or unleashed psychic potential is what qualifies them to be heroes, villains, adventurers, tyrants, and benefactors to the rest. Though I have had characters start with less 'stuff' before as well.

[Colt47]

It's actually not that hard to encourage SDC combat in Rifts, really. If you look at the costs for MDC equipment to begin with and then look at bounties and typical rewards for dealing with non-MDC threats, it doesn't pay to use the Mega-damage level technology against them. One shot from a laser pistol might vaporize a wolf terrorizing a village, but that village is only going to pay 75 credits per wolf head... key word being you need the HEAD of said animal.

A problem with the game recently as far as SDC goes is the way weapon proficiencies can discourage SDC combat. The game really seems to push the energy weapon proficiencies, which are mostly MD weapons, as compared to taking handguns, rifles, or something else. In my opinion, I think all characters should have one additional weapon proficiency that is to be chosen from an SDC category of Modern Weapon proficiencies.

Also, all the tech cities typically force people to keep their md/mdc travel gear in lockers.

[flatline]

So all these posts about how to keep a sd/sdc game seem to imply that the majority of the characters are regular humans and that taking away their equipment removes their ability for md/mdc.

What happens when the typical character isn't dependent on equipment to do/receive md/mdc? Can sd/sdc remain the norm?

--flatline

[llywelyn]

What happens when the typical character isn't dependent on equipment to do/receive md/mdc? Can sd/sdc remain the norm?

You're defining your own answer aren't you?

If you want SDC to remain the norm, simply employ it. Juicer? Dragon hatchling? Elder God? Who cares. Just convert to SDC (or go full Palladium and reduce by half or more).

It doesn't make sense that most of them have carbon nanofiber equivalent skin in the first place and there's more than enough canon bits of Kevin going "do what works for you".

[jaymz]

What happens when the typical character isn't dependent on equipment to do/receive md/mdc? Can sd/sdc remain the norm?

You're defining your own answer aren't you?

If you want SDC to remain the norm, simply employ it. Juicer? Dragon hatchling? Elder God? Who cares. Just convert to SDC (or go full Palladium and reduce by half or more).

It doesn't make sense that most of them have carbon nanofiber equivalent skin in the first place and there's more than enough canon bits of Kevin going "do what works for you".

I don't think he is talking about making the entire setting SD/SDC but asking if SD/SDC can be maintained as relevant and "normal" to beings like Dragon Hatchlings, Mega Juicers, so on and so forth, when they are not really reliant on MD/MDC technologies like a squishy would be (squishy being a human or human like being)

I think it can if you want it to be. Those being (Mega-Juicer et al) just have to tread more lightly or suffer the consequences of their missteps in things like punching an SDC being full force when you have Supernatural or Robotic PS thus killing them. Will SDC weapons hurt them? Not likely but a Mega Juicer still has to breathe and eat so you can suffocate him into unconsciousness.

It will take more work but it can be done.

[flatline]

What happens when the typical character isn't dependent on equipment to do/receive md/mdc? Can sd/sdc remain the norm?

You're defining your own answer aren't you?

If you want SDC to remain the norm, simply employ it. Juicer? Dragon hatchling? Elder God? Who cares. Just convert to SDC (or go full Palladium and reduce by half or more).

It doesn't make sense that most of them have carbon nanofiber equivalent skin in the first place and there's more than enough canon bits of Kevin going "do what works for you".

I don't think he is talking about making the entire setting SD/SDC but asking if SD/SDC can be maintained as relevant and "normal" to beings like Dragon Hatchlings, Mega Juicers, so on and so forth, when they are not really reliant on MD/MDC technologies like a squishy would be (squishy being a human or human like being)

This is exactly what I'm asking. I always play spell casters, so even though the character may be SDC, he has easy access to MDC protection (armor of ithan, whatever) and MD attacks (throwing stones, lightning bolt, whatever).

If the GM wants combat to be a challenge, then he has almost no choice but to make the opponents md/mdc. It only takes one character to force the escalation.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

This is exactly what I'm asking. I always play spell casters, so even though the character may be SDC, he has easy access to MDC protection (armor of ithan, whatever) and MD attacks (throwing stones, lightning bolt, whatever).

If the GM wants combat to be a challenge, then he has almost no choice but to make the opponents md/mdc. It only takes one character to force the escalation.

--flatline

Say you have a mage with Armor of Ithan and Call Lightning.

He can be shot with a poison dart or arrow before he even knows combat is about to start.

He can be put up against SDC creatures that are impervious to electricity, resulting in a stalemate unless one of them thinks of something clever.

He can be put up against a SDC foe that has psionics that reach right through his AoI.

He can be put up against a number of SDC foes that have poison gas or other attacks that bypass AoI.

He can be put up against a massive swarm of animated dead.

He can be put up against a group of bandits in SDC vehicle with SDC armor and weapons. A good suit of modern body armor can have 280 SDC as per N&S, and it's not at all unlikely that at some point between the era in that setting and Rifts Earth, somebody figured out how to produce SDC armor with 300-600 SDC or better.
An average mage has about 125 PPE at first level. He casts AoI, that's down to 115 PPE, leaving him enough PPE to cast Call Lightning 7 times.
If he's up against 6 bandits in two SDC vehicles (say 300 SDC each, average for cars), each bandit with basic Class IV Hard Armor (280 SDC), and armed with a good assault rifle loaded with explosive rounds (2d6x10+3 SDC per shot, 4d6x10+6 SDC per short burst), he's got a good fight on his hand.
He's only got a 66% chance of taking out each vehicle in a single Call Lightning, and the same odds of taking out each bandit with a single hit, and there are more bandits than he has Call Lightnings in any case.
Meanwhile, he has 10 MDC in his AoI, and each bandit is going to inflict an average of 146 SDC per shot, which comes out as an average of 1 MD. Once they're all in position to shoot, he only has a single round of attacks or so before his AoI is eliminated.
Moreover, Call Lightning is a 6th level spell, so he'll need two attacks to cast it, and he won't be able to because he'll be under heavy fire.
Even with a lower level spell that he CAN get off (and, honestly, when I started this scenario I thought that Call Lighting was low enough to cast in one attack), something like Fire Bolt, then he he can cast it, but the enemy can dodge and hide behind cover. Also, the range isn't so great.

Sure, your mage isn't going to be alone, but if you have a party of mages, increase the numbers or stats of the enemy.
If it's a mixed party, have more bandits, tougher bandits, or bandits plus something else.

That help any?

[DhAkael]

Short answer... no.
Long answer... hell no.

Heck, just read any of David Webbers 'Honour 'Verse' novels or heck, the expanded universe of the Bolo.
Even the olde TSR Gama-world was pretty much a "un-armoured / armed squsihies BETTER have mutations or they DIE real quick." mentality.

So SDC is only relevant to contanied URBAN games where your access to the technology is limmited and YES, magi and psionics WILL have an advantage. That's why you use things like tear gas & contact poison gas / liquids to subdue them.
As for the MDC beings...errmmm... douse your SDC hieny in steak sauce and hope the beasty eats you head first?

But Jaymz has pretty much detailed ways this can be dealt with; it just requires the GM's and -gasp- PLAYERS to work together ("HERESY!!!" say the munchkins) to make it ballance out. You know... ROLE play as opposed to just using stats.

Either that or just go and play Exalted. EVERYONE & THING is basicly an unbeatable uber-being / structure.
..and for those who want to be playing fragiles; 1st edition BTS has some great rules for playing ordinary joes. I.E.; Monster Lunch-meat >:-)==)

[flatline]

KC: Why are you allowing SD assault rifles to harm MDC armor of ithan?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

What happens when the typical character isn't dependent on equipment to do/receive md/mdc? Can sd/sdc remain the norm?
--flatline

Yes.

I addressed stuff like mages, a bit, but let's say you have a hatchling dragon. He's a MDC tank, that inflicts MD naturally in several ways.
He's awesome.

But he's not omnipotent.

Part of the issue, I think is that people want to play RPGs like they were action movies... but they don't really play them like they were action movies.
In most action movies, the heroes are far and away superior to the enemies that they face.
The hero fights various numbers of rather easy opponents who present no real challenge, and/or faces various obstacles, then eventually faces some large challenge. This is the norm for action movies.
This is also why some people use what they call "mook" rules, where they have generic villains have reduced stats and capabilities, so that the heroes can easily defeat them with no real risk. This actually IS a lot like an action movie in some ways.
The only problem that I have with mook rules is that there's no need to gimp opponents down to be weaker than they're supposed to be when you can (and should) simply use less powerful opponents.
For example, I've seen people complaining that it's too hard to take out CS Grunts in combat, so they gimp down the CS grunts the PCs face, using reduced MDC instead of the full MDC that the grunts should have, except for cases where the PCs fight a "boss", who has normal or better stats.
But they gimped down the new Heavy Deadboy armor, instead of simply using the old-style light armor with only 50 MDC, or instead of using bandits in Plastic Man and Urban Warrior instead of using CS grunts at all.

Anyway, the point is that a lot of people who say that they're looking for "cinematic action" don't us gimp rules, but they don't really follow the standard movie formula either.
They want to play Zorro, only they also want every fight to be a challenge... even though Zorro dominates almost every battle effortlessly. Zorro's main problem was never winning swordfights. His main challenge was keeping his identity secret, winning the ladies, saving the day, and so on.
Basically, they want two conflicting things: they want their characters to be impressive, like movie characters are, but they also want most of their battles to be easy wins, like movie battles are.
And they don't feel impressive when they have an easy win, because they feel it was TOO easy... but at the same time, they don't feel impressive when every battle is an even match, because then they just feel average.
Which is the problem people get into with Rifts, especially with MDC.
They want their characters to be powerful enough to be impressive, but they also want to be challenged.
So they gear up, and they get badass OCCs/RCCs, and they try to make supreme badass characters... but their standard is already skewed, because they view MDC as the norm, with low-end MDC being "weak."
When it's really all relative.

You have a straight, from-the-book SAMAS character, and he's a veritable GOD compared to most of the (normal humanoid) inhabitants of Rifts Earth.
You have a vagabond with a Wilk's 320 and a suit of Plastic Man armor, and he's damned near a demigod.

You take a fancy, souped-up Mega-Juicer, though, and there's still stuff out there that can drop him without breaking a sweat, or sometimes even breaking stride.

In Rifts, the fact that something out there can kill you doesn't make you weak: the fact that something can kill you is inevitable.

Anyway, back to the Dragon.
He's MDC.
Sometimes, you'll need MDC foes to throw at him.
Neither of these things mean that MDC is common overall.

Say your dragon is a wanderer, and he travels from town to town as his general deal, like an Old West gunfighter, or like David Banner in the Hulk TV show, or any number of other classic heroes.
The standard setup in Rifts is that most towns have a defender or group of defenders that have mega-damage capabilities.

So he might run into one town, and find that the local protector is also a dragon. They make friends, the other dragon says he could use the PC's help with a problem, and the PC agrees to help. Maybe the NPC dragon needs help with a technical problem, like building a mine, or maybe he needs help because of an enemy that is encroaching on his turf, and the enemy is too tough to handle on his own. So the two dragons team up, solve the problem or stop the enemy. Then the PC dragon finds out that the NPC dragon is really a bad guy, and the favor was actually a bad thing for the PC to help with. Like maybe the dragon plans to use human slaves in the mine, or maybe the enemy enroaching on the territory was less evil than this dragon turns out to be, or whatever.
So then the dragons fight each other, and the PC wins.
Maybe he kills the other dragon, in which case the town is now easy prey for enemies. Maybe the PC dragon decides to become the new protector, maybe not.
Maybe the NPC dragon escapes, and become a recurring villain.
Maybe the PC forced the NPC dragon to promise to behave better in the future, and finds a way to make it stick.
There's an adventure, with some potential to be a campaign, depending on how it turns out.

Of course, the PC dragon there is alone in that scenario, but the basic plot could easily enough be adapted to a group.
Of course, the more powerful the party, the less likely the scenario. If you have a party of 6 hatchling dragons wandering around, it's unlikely that they'll find a village with 6 other hatchling dragons protecting it, and it'll be more of a stretch each time they find something that powerful protecting a town.
So beyond a certain power level, it doesn't work as well, not over the long term anyway.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC: Why are you allowing SD assault rifles to harm MDC armor of ithan?

--flatline

Because those are the rules.

RUE 288

Mega-Damage Capacity armor is impervious to SDC/HP damage! SDC attacks that inflict 1-99 points of damage bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman....
...Only SDC weapons that inflict 100 or more SDC points of damage can hurt MDC armor.

Rifts 11

Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a MDC structure. SDC missiles and explosive that can inflict over 100 SDC points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage. In these rare cases, approximately every 100 SDC points of damage equals 1 mega-damage point. Always round down SDC damage. For example: A missile that inflicts 450 SDC equals 4 MDC.

RUE makes no mention that I can find of the "explosives are the only SDC attacks that can ever harm MDC targets" rule, so that rule appears to have been changed along with the wording of it.
Currently, ANY SDC attack that inflicts over 100 SDC/HP damage can damage a MDC structure.

In the previous scenario, though, I chose explosive rounds specifically, so the scenario would work under either RMB or RUE rules. Either way, the bandits can harm MDC foes/armor.

Some have argued from time to time that a burst shouldn't count as "a single attack," and therefore should be unable to inflict damage to a MDC target, even if the total damage from the burst is over 100 SDC damage.
Their interpretation is not, however, ever mentioned in the rules. The rules constantly and consistently treat burst as a single attack.
Even going with that interpretation, though, the explosive bullets I list will still inflict 2d6x10 SDC per single shot, which still allows for a chance to inflict mega-damage, albeit a much smaller chance than with the burst damage.

Also, to be clear, I was not saying that every attack would in fact inflict damage to the AoI, only those attacks that inflicted more than 100 SDC.
The range of damage for the bursts in the scenario would be 46-246 damage, so sometimes the attacks would inflict 99 or under SDC, resulting in no damage at all, and other times the attacks would inflict 200+ SDC, resulting in 2 MDC lost from the armor.
The 1 MD per burst average was just that, an average. Depending on the rolls, things might go faster or slower.

Does that clear things up?

[Proseksword]

One rule I've lived by in GMing RIFTs is that there is always something bigger, badder, and more dangerous than you, and the last thing it likes is a potential rival with a pulse. In a lot of ways, it is a significant advantage to appear less powerful than you really are, because appearing powerful means appearing like a threat, and appearing like a threat means someone will feel the need to take you down.

I've had several players play Glitter Boys in my campaigns. Each and every one of them has found that in general they draw far more attention than they are worth.

There's no hiding them, and powerful enemies can see them from miles away.

Anyone who isn't an ally tends to instantaneously view them as a threat, and either conspire to neutralize them or attacks them outright.

Since they're constantly getting in fights, they are constantly in need of complicated, expensive repairs.

Virtually nobody feels comfortable with a potential sonic-boom in their midst.

Even when you get out of them, they're a very tempting target for people to attempt to steal, sabotage, or otherwise screw with.

The most successful characters in my campaigns tend to toward being the kind that look like ordinary folk - wizards, psychics, rangers, gunslingers, and to a lesser extent, headhunters. Juicers, Borgs, and other crazy supernatural powerhouses tend to just get into one brutal scrape after another without really accomplishing anything, story-wise.

[The Beast]

KC: Why are you allowing SD assault rifles to harm MDC armor of ithan?

--flatline

Because those are the rules.

RUE 288

Mega-Damage Capacity armor is impervious to SDC/HP damage! SDC attacks that inflict 1-99 points of damage bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman....
...Only SDC weapons that inflict 100 or more SDC points of damage can hurt MDC armor.

Rifts 11

Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a MDC structure. SDC missiles and explosive that can inflict over 100 SDC points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage. In these rare cases, approximately every 100 SDC points of damage equals 1 mega-damage point. Always round down SDC damage. For example: A missile that inflicts 450 SDC equals 4 MDC.

RUE makes no mention that I can find of the "explosives are the only SDC attacks that can ever harm MDC targets" rule, so that rule appears to have been changed along with the wording of it.
Currently, ANY SDC attack that inflicts over 100 SDC/HP damage can damage a MDC structure.

In the previous scenario, though, I chose explosive rounds specifically, so the scenario would work under either RMB or RUE rules. Either way, the bandits can harm MDC foes/armor.

Some have argued from time to time that a burst shouldn't count as "a single attack," and therefore should be unable to inflict damage to a MDC target, even if the total damage from the burst is over 100 SDC damage.
Their interpretation is not, however, ever mentioned in the rules. The rules constantly and consistently treat burst as a single attack.
Even going with that interpretation, though, the explosive bullets I list will still inflict 2d6x10 SDC per single shot, which still allows for a chance to inflict mega-damage, albeit a much smaller chance than with the burst damage.

Also, to be clear, I was not saying that every attack would in fact inflict damage to the AoI, only those attacks that inflicted more than 100 SDC.
The range of damage for the bursts in the scenario would be 46-246 damage, so sometimes the attacks would inflict 99 or under SDC, resulting in no damage at all, and other times the attacks would inflict 200+ SDC, resulting in 2 MDC lost from the armor.
The 1 MD per burst average was just that, an average. Depending on the rolls, things might go faster or slower.

Does that clear things up?

Actually that was mentioned in the RMB, and it said that bursts would not do MD. I'm not sure if RUE changed this.

(and no I can't quote page number because my books are in a different state)

[Dr. Doom III]

KC: Why are you allowing SD assault rifles to harm MDC armor of ithan?

--flatline

Because those are the rules.

RUE 288

Mega-Damage Capacity armor is impervious to SDC/HP damage! SDC attacks that inflict 1-99 points of damage bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman....
...Only SDC weapons that inflict 100 or more SDC points of damage can hurt MDC armor.

Rifts 11

Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a MDC structure. SDC missiles and explosive that can inflict over 100 SDC points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage. In these rare cases, approximately every 100 SDC points of damage equals 1 mega-damage point. Always round down SDC damage. For example: A missile that inflicts 450 SDC equals 4 MDC.

RUE makes no mention that I can find of the "explosives are the only SDC attacks that can ever harm MDC targets" rule, so that rule appears to have been changed along with the wording of it.
Currently, ANY SDC attack that inflicts over 100 SDC/HP damage can damage a MDC structure.

In the previous scenario, though, I chose explosive rounds specifically, so the scenario would work under either RMB or RUE rules. Either way, the bandits can harm MDC foes/armor.

Some have argued from time to time that a burst shouldn't count as "a single attack," and therefore should be unable to inflict damage to a MDC target, even if the total damage from the burst is over 100 SDC damage.
Their interpretation is not, however, ever mentioned in the rules. The rules constantly and consistently treat burst as a single attack.
Even going with that interpretation, though, the explosive bullets I list will still inflict 2d6x10 SDC per single shot, which still allows for a chance to inflict mega-damage, albeit a much smaller chance than with the burst damage.

Also, to be clear, I was not saying that every attack would in fact inflict damage to the AoI, only those attacks that inflicted more than 100 SDC.
The range of damage for the bursts in the scenario would be 46-246 damage, so sometimes the attacks would inflict 99 or under SDC, resulting in no damage at all, and other times the attacks would inflict 200+ SDC, resulting in 2 MDC lost from the armor.
The 1 MD per burst average was just that, an average. Depending on the rolls, things might go faster or slower.

Does that clear things up?

Actually that was mentioned in the RMB, and it said that bursts would not do MD. I'm not sure if RUE changed this.

(and no I can't quote page number because my books are in a different state)

Yep since every bullet only does SDC damage it will never harm an MDC structure. Explosives however doing hundreds of SDC damage can do Minor MDC damage because it's all in one hit.

[Akashic Soldier]

Yep since every bullet only does SDC damage it will never harm an MDC structure. Explosives however doing hundreds of SDC damage can do Minor MDC damage because it's all in one hit.

That is not how I interpret it.

If a single action/attack causes over 100 points of SDC damage I allow it to inflict MDC.

To do anything less is to cheapen a massive effort on someones behalf. Inflicting that much damage isn't an EASY task by any means and most ways you are going to be able to do it are in one shot all-or-nothing attacks.

[Akashic Soldier]

Short answer... no.
Long answer... hell no.

Heck, just read any of David Webbers 'Honour 'Verse' novels or heck, the expanded universe of the Bolo.
Even the olde TSR Gama-world was pretty much a "un-armoured / armed squsihies BETTER have mutations or they DIE real quick." mentality.

So SDC is only relevant to contanied URBAN games where your access to the technology is limmited and YES, magi and psionics WILL have an advantage. That's why you use things like tear gas & contact poison gas / liquids to subdue them.
As for the MDC beings...errmmm... douse your SDC hieny in steak sauce and hope the beasty eats you head first?

But Jaymz has pretty much detailed ways this can be dealt with; it just requires the GM's and -gasp- PLAYERS to work together ("HERESY!!!" say the munchkins) to make it ballance out. You know... ROLE play as opposed to just using stats.

Either that or just go and play Exalted. EVERYONE & THING is basicly an unbeatable uber-being / structure.
..and for those who want to be playing fragiles; 1st edition BTS has some great rules for playing ordinary joes. I.E.; Monster Lunch-meat >:-)==)

Here Here!

[Dr. Doom III]

Yep since every bullet only does SDC damage it will never harm an MDC structure. Explosives however doing hundreds of SDC damage can do Minor MDC damage because it's all in one hit.

That is not how I interpret it.

If a single action/attack causes over 100 points of SDC damage I allow it to inflict MDC.

To do anything less is to cheapen a massive effort on someones behalf. Inflicting that much damage isn't an EASY task by any means and most ways you are going to be able to do it are in one shot all-or-nothing attacks.

Effort? Effort's got nothing to do with it.
It's all about force. Each of those tiny little bullets just don't have enough force individually to harm MDC material.

[Akashic Soldier]

Effort? Effort's got nothing to do with it.
It's all about force. Each of those tiny little bullets just don't have enough force individually to harm MDC material.

Palladium's Experience System is a guideline for how I run my game.

So the short answer is (in my game and just in my game) if my players bust their ass setting things up so that they can do enough damage to hurt the unbeatable MDC foe I reward them instead of laughing in their face.

Unless of course they fail... then I laugh in their face.

And if other people don't like how I run my games... all I have to say is!

"Let me tell y'all what it's like
Being male, middle-class and white
It's a b*tch, if you don't believe
Listen up to my new CD
(Sha-mon)

I got sh*t runnin' through my brain
It's so intense that I can't explain
All alone in my white-boy pain
Shake your booty while the band complains

I'm rockin' the suburbs
Just like Michael Jackson did
I'm rockin' the suburbs
Except that he was talented
I'm rockin' the suburbs
I take the cheques and face the facts
That some producer with computers fixes all my sh*tty tracks

I'm p*ssed off but I'm too polite
When people break in the McDonald's line
Mom and Dad you made me so uptight
I'm gonna cuss on the mic tonight

I don't know how much I can take
Girl, give me something I can break

I'm rockin' the suburbs
Just like Quiet Riot did
I'm rockin' the suburbs
Except that they were talented
I'm rockin' the suburbs
I take the cheques and face the facts
That some producer with computers fixes all my sh*tty tracks

In a haze these days
I pull up to the stop light
I can feel that something's not right
I can feel that someone's blasting me with hate
And bass
Sendin' dirty vibes my way
'Cause my great great great great Grandad
Made someones' great great great great Grandaddies slaves
It wasn't my idea
It wasn't my idea
Never was my idea

I just drove to the store
For some Preparation-H

Y'all don't know what it's like
Being male, middle-class and white
Y'all don't know what it's like
Being male, middle-class and white
Y'all don't know what it's like
Being male, middle-class and white
Y'all don't know what it's like
Being male, middle class and white

It gets me real p*ssed off, it makes me wanna say
It gets me real p*ssed off and it makes me wanna say
It gets me real p*ssed off and it makes me wanna say
F*CK!

Just like Jon Bon Jovi did
I'm rockin' the suburbs
Except that he was talented
I'm rockin' the suburbs
I take the cheques and face the facts
That some producer with computers fixes all my sh*tty tracks

These days
Yeah yeah
I'm rockin' the suburbs
Yeah yeah
I'm rockin' the suburbs
Yeah yeah"

Next time I'll bring my backup singers but it was a bit short notice.

*Does the robot*

[TechnoGothic]

What song it that ? Artist ?

[Akashic Soldier]

What song it that ? Artist ?

Ben Folds, Rocking the Suburbs.

[jaymz]

Yep since every bullet only does SDC damage it will never harm an MDC structure. Explosives however doing hundreds of SDC damage can do Minor MDC damage because it's all in one hit.

That is not how I interpret it.

If a single action/attack causes over 100 points of SDC damage I allow it to inflict MDC.

To do anything less is to cheapen a massive effort on someones behalf. Inflicting that much damage isn't an EASY task by any means and most ways you are going to be able to do it are in one shot all-or-nothing attacks.

Effort? Effort's got nothing to do with it.
It's all about force. Each of those tiny little bullets just don't have enough force individually to harm MDC material.

Please don't start with the real science in my futuristic science fiction fantasy world.

Besides the book never states that it has to be one bullet just one "attack" without defining what that "attack" must be. It doesn't say a single shot, or one bullet or anything like that so by the wording that would mean ANY "attack" that does more than 100sd does 1 point of md. At least that is my interpretation. You have a different one so that puts the two sides at a stand still.

So stop trying to say your way is the right way since, which is typically standard procedure with Palladium rules, there is no "right" way. The "right" way is whatever way you interpret it.

[Colt47]

Actually, another curiosity about MD energy weapons in Rifts is why they don't all have an SDC setting. It seems like it would be a no brainer considering that not everyone and everything requires an mega-damage answer. Also, it really shouldn't be that difficult to add a lower powered setting to an energy powered gun of all things.


Edit: Obviously, this makes more sense for the laser and ion rifles than the weapons designed specifically for taking on heavy duty threats, like plasma ejectors and particle beam cannons, but still...

[jaymz]

Actually, another curiosity about MD energy weapons in Rifts is why they don't all have an SDC setting. It seems like it would be a no brainer considering that not everyone and everything requires an mega-damage answer. Also, it really shouldn't be that difficult to add a lower powered setting to an energy powered gun of all things.


Edit: Obviously, this makes more sense for the laser and ion rifles than the weapons designed specifically for taking on heavy duty threats, like plasma ejectors and particle beam cannons, but still...

Agreed