Why pick on the CS

[kogwar]

I was wondering why people always choose to go after the cs ( not including the obvious out of game reasons like they are in the main book and in the most books) i mean there are plenty of other badies out there like some of the warlords of Russia and the warlords of lone star, or the true federation of magic, or free Quebec ( which in some cases is worse than the cs) or if you want to go smaller Armageddon unlimited and The shadow warriors that you could go after. I mean why so much hate on the cs while they arnt my favorite faction in NA (Baronies ftw) I do thunk they stance on non humans and magic while harsh is understandable and survival based. Well to cut my rant short what do you guys the forum think.

[Jedrious]

because, traditionally, everyone hates Natzis

[DhAkael]

Why?
Because internet.

[TechnoGothic]

The CS are the Nazi...
The CS are the Commie Russians...
The CS HATE You...for being different...
The CS Hates religions...and anyone with one...
The CS Hates magic...and anyone who likes or uses magic...

[Grell]

Because hate only breeds more hate.

[Giant2005]

It is for the same reason people would much rather be able to beat up Mike Tyson than Mike Myers (Actor not the horror icon from the Halloween Films).
Beating the biggest, baddest dude around makes you the new biggest, baddest dude around. Beating up a wimp just makes you a wimp.

[Nightmask]

It is for the same reason people would much rather be able to beat up Mike Tyson than Mike Myers (Actor not the horror icon from the Halloween Films).
Beating the biggest, baddest dude around makes you the new biggest, baddest dude around. Beating up a wimp just makes you a wimp.

Plus having a socially acceptable target reduces how many people target you. When you go after the CS you have no body rushing in to defend them against your actions and putting you on their hit list. Meanwhile if you go around attacking other sorts you're going to attract everyone else who'd favor those sorts. If your group goes around acting like the CS for example you attract every D-bee and magic-user around looking to get you before you get them, go around acting as a defender of others on the other hand and you run into fewer people who'll go 'hey you did this now we'll get you for it'.

[TechnoGothic]

No one likes a Bully.

[flatline]

I was wondering why people always choose to go after the cs ( not including the obvious out of game reasons like they are in the main book and in the most books) i mean there are plenty of other badies out there like some of the warlords of Russia and the warlords of lone star, or the true federation of magic, or free Quebec ( which in some cases is worse than the cs) or if you want to go smaller Armageddon unlimited and The shadow warriors that you could go after. I mean why so much hate on the cs while they arnt my favorite faction in NA (Baronies ftw) I do thunk they stance on non humans and magic while harsh is understandable and survival based. Well to cut my rant short what do you guys the forum think.

Most other powers are either engaged in a symmetric struggle with opponents at similar power levels (NGR vs Gargoyles) or are uninterested in conquest (Atlantis).

The CS is the only power that is openly aggressive, expansionist, and doesn't have something obvious standing in its way. They also get special treatment in the books that many of us feel is completely unjustified.

I think Kevin set them up this way on purpose.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Because most GMs don't know how to use them, because if they did you wouldn't want to mess with them period. Look at the number of ex-coalition soldiers who run off with all their gear, really not one fellow soldier is going to notice that.

[keir451]

One of the big complaints I hear about the CS is how "They can't possibly have all the/any of the resources they're written with." Many people also hate the apparent "power creep" of CS technology and their apparently inexplicable ability to "lose" potentailly several million soldiers that they supposedly don't have.

Some of it comes down to a difference in gaming styles, thought processes or (apparently) author fiat.

I, for example, DON'T hate the CS except as the (relative) bad guy they are written to be and I'm one of the ones who runs the CS as the technological military power house they appear to be (at least to me). Which makes MY CS a terrifying enemy in almost any reality (in the 3 Galaxies they'd be plant food).

Others may not use the CS at all and instead concentrate on other portions of the game realm.
In the end differences of opinion, and how hard we defend those opinions, are the biggest reason fur occaisionally flies here on the boards (usually rat bastards fur, but who's counting ).

[Athos]

Because hate only breeds more hate.

I like this !!!

[kogwar]

But you have to pecos bandits who are nasty in their own right and the evil fed of magic who are in many ways just as powerful as the cs in some aspects and are just as hateful if not more.

[Giant2005]

But you have to pecos bandits who are nasty in their own right and the evil fed of magic who are in many ways just as powerful as the cs in some aspects and are just as hateful if not more.

The bandits are just bandits - they are happy to rob and pillage but they will never change the world. They don't even want to change the world. In the eyes of a bandit, any significant world change could harm their occupation.
And the "Federation" of Magic is a joke. If it was actually a federation and involved all of the mages in North America it might be something to consider. As it stands the "federation" of magic is merely a few thousand mages who think they are more capable than they are: an army they are not.

[MikelAmroni]

Because those enemies are not the top dog, or even a factor in the overall socio-political backdrop, aside from in a peripheral way. The CS is THE lynchpin of civilized North America, providing the economic stability that everyone else must feed from, in one way or another. That, in my opinion, is why they get so much meta-plot immunity. If the CS falls, all of North America is shaken, as well as Europe. You'd probably enter a new dark age (though no one would realize it at first) unless Archie 3 or the Republicans swooped in and took over (reestablishing that rock solid economic "center").

It's also fun to use jack booted nazis as antagonists (players don't have a problem seeing them as bad guys), but the equal stress on the gullability of the populace is supposed to the urge to slay their support structure. They are meant to be an unatainable goal or an immovable force that stays no matter what you do. You can lessen the evil, or you can mitigate its effects, but in the end, its still there and still affecting the world. I personally view them less as Nazi Germany, but more as Ceasar's Rome with that death/storm trooper imagery instead of the impressive eagle/legion imagery.

Of course part of the issue is there are a great many here who have such a hate on for the very concept of the CS that they'd disagree with even those basic concepts of what the CS actually provide for the game. Hence why "CS vs _" or "random thing about the CS" threads are popular - they are divisive and demand debate. Any source of conflict on message boards is good fodder for conversation.

[taalismn]

[

I think Kevin set them up this way on purpose.

--flatline

It's kinda like reality...there are people and nations out there that simply do and say things, and act in ways that just seem calculated to totally get people dissed at them, because the commonsense justification for their words and actions is mighty thin, leaving observers going 'what the HELL are these guys thinking...?!'. Even if you remove reporting bias and account for 'they're a product of their times/culture'.

[kogwar]

So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.

[Nightmask]

So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.

Pretty much. They want to be the Big Damn Heroes battling the evil empire like we see in literature and anime so often, not the street corner hero who tripped a purse snatcher so the police could catch him.

[taalismn]

So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.

Pretty much. They want to be the Big Damn Heroes battling the evil empire like we see in literature and anime so often, not the street corner hero who tripped a purse snatcher so the police could catch him.

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

[Nightmask]

So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.

Pretty much. They want to be the Big Damn Heroes battling the evil empire like we see in literature and anime so often, not the street corner hero who tripped a purse snatcher so the police could catch him.

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.

[Dead Boy]

The CS are the Nazi...

Kind of. The CS, as originally written, was intentionally endowed with Nazi symbology and name dropping by Kev to evoke the image of a real-world bad guy everybody can get their their hate on for. It's kind of cheap, but it works! Point of fact, the CS is actually the Roman Empire (who were kind of evil in their own right), but people can't get past the Nazi references. It blinds them with fury to all else.

The CS are the Commie Russians...

Uh, no. Their socioeconomics seem to be capitalist in function, though it's possible they have some socialist social tendencies here and there. That aspect of the CS hasn't been fleshed out all that much.

The CS HATE You...for being different...

"You"? Depends on who "you" are. But let's face it, ALL organizations hate you for being different to one extent or another. Uber liberals hate Republicans, and ultra conservatives hate Democrats. Hate for being different is hardly a CS-only sort of thing.

The CS Hates religions...and anyone with one...

Nope. This claim is completely unsubstantiated. In fact there are numerous mentions to God and prayer in the letters to home from the CS soldiers in the SoT series. Of all the wrongs the CS has committed, this is not one of them.

The CS Hates magic...and anyone who likes or uses magic...

Damn skippy! Magic corrupts and spawns more evils in the world than the love of money. It's a form of absolute power, and it makes the people who embrace it rotten from the core on out. Some may resist the evil from within, but the taint of the black seed that is magic is still there, yearning to get out and bring untold death and carnage to the world. Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out! It's the only way to be sure.

[kogwar]

I Agee I mean while in our world it is bad to discriminate just look at some db rccs I mean there are alot of damn dangerous DBs that could level cities easaly and some hide it well dragons for example and that is nit including magic and psionics who can kill you with a thought I damn the would scare the crud out of any gov that was not empowered that way I mean today govs have issues with hand guns let alone pyrokinesis.

[Dr Megaverse]

I Agee I mean while in our world it is bad to discriminate just look at some db rccs I mean there are alot of damn dangerous DBs that could level cities easaly and some hide it well dragons for example and that is nit including magic and psionics who can kill you with a thought I damn the would scare the crud out of any gov that was not empowered that way I mean today govs have issues with hand guns let alone pyrokinesis.

I also feel there is an element of, "A dragon could kill you if it showed up but the CS is pretty much assured to if they do." from a lot of peoples perspectives. Also remember many people do not strictly play human characters, which would give their characters great cause to feel injustice, and as such an understandable desire to fight said injustice.

The CS at large isn't really invulnerable, it just hasn't been confronted by the right set of circumstances yet. What I've always thought was the CS's greatest threat was co-option. Sure they could be destroyed...much more insidious to gradually infect them long term with radical idea change through subtle manipulation.

[keir451]

So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.

Pretty much. They want to be the Big Damn Heroes battling the evil empire like we see in literature and anime so often, not the street corner hero who tripped a purse snatcher so the police could catch him.

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.

That's certainly one way to look at it. Of course the CS doesn't view themselves as the "bad guy", or that they may potentially cause another Dark Age. I think that's part of the "I hate the CS!" problem too many people look at them from the outside, the whole Deathshead symbology, following Hitler's example, etc., and forget the CS's point of view, namely that they see themselves as saviours of humanity.

[ShadowLogan]

I think one of the issues I have with the CS is that unlike other regions on the planet (I'm familiar with), the CS really has no counter in NA (or put another way the CS is the sole Gorilla in the room of NA).

Archie, Republicans, and FoM are all hiding in the shadows. What remains are either small city states that collectively might be a danger to the CS, but individually could be crushed (granted Tolkeen demonstrates the CS can have problems in this area).

While there are non-humans (Vamps, Bugs, Calgary Demons), they each have their own outlooks that really don't strike me as a counter to the CS. Atlantis could be a counter to them, but isn't a NA state (they may be larger gorilla, but one next door).

The CS also strike me as being hypocritics (sp) in that they claim to be the saviors of humanity, but really aren't interested in saving humanity. Only those like-minded humans, and even then that is not a guarantee (look at FQ when they decieded they'd had enough).

I have to also wonder if the CS isn't a corrupting influence on Magic users to some degree (Tolkeen RMB to SoT, maybe even FoM).

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.

Pretty much. They want to be the Big Damn Heroes battling the evil empire like we see in literature and anime so often, not the street corner hero who tripped a purse snatcher so the police could catch him.

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.

That's certainly one way to look at it. Of course the CS doesn't view themselves as the "bad guy", or that they may potentially cause another Dark Age. I think that's part of the "I hate the CS!" problem too many people look at them from the outside, the whole Deathshead symbology, following Hitler's example, etc., and forget the CS's point of view, namely that they see themselves as saviours of humanity.

Dam right CS are good guys

[Looonatic]

Because they wear their armor too long and they smell like feet.

[llywelyn]

Is there a lot of Coalition hate? The books are written to make them the big baddie, but I see a lot of pushback on the boards.

I myself have never seen any accounting of the actual common Dbees in North America. The majority of the books are filled with pretty highly powered races (or godlike AutoGs) followed by the notice that there are only 4 left alive in the multiverse. The impression one's left with is most of the actual Dbee population are the instinctive serial-killer psistalkers & the man-eating simvans.

The very definition of Dbee is an arbitrary and bigoted prejudice in favor of humanoids over "monsters".

Meanwhile, the worst writing I've seen was a Rifter article where GenMod experiments give humanity a 3-year adolescence, higher average intelligence, and mega-damage skin and the author goes out of his way to describe how the players MUST stop this because of the OBVIOUS evil of humanity triumphant.

If the idea was to make Dbee prejudice seem irrational, that's not a good way to go about it. To put it mildly.

[Nightmask]

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.

That's certainly one way to look at it. Of course the CS doesn't view themselves as the "bad guy", or that they may potentially cause another Dark Age. I think that's part of the "I hate the CS!" problem too many people look at them from the outside, the whole Deathshead symbology, following Hitler's example, etc., and forget the CS's point of view, namely that they see themselves as saviours of humanity.

I think people manage to see things just fine, such as the people being deluded into thinking that they're supposed to be saviors while gleefully torching the villages of innocent, peaceful non-humans and magic-users and believing it completely okay to murder even infants for not being human. Troopers that don't do that kind of thing are an exception, either because they start seeing through the lies or because they find it a waste of energy killing obvious non-combatants when it ought to be directed towards actual threats. The guy that goes around killing prostitutes because 'I'm doing this to make the world a better place!' has convinced himself he's not a bad guy either, he's still a very bad and evil guy. Doesn't matter how much you delude yourself evil is evil.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.

That's certainly one way to look at it. Of course the CS doesn't view themselves as the "bad guy", or that they may potentially cause another Dark Age. I think that's part of the "I hate the CS!" problem too many people look at them from the outside, the whole Deathshead symbology, following Hitler's example, etc., and forget the CS's point of view, namely that they see themselves as saviours of humanity.

I think people manage to see things just fine, such as the people being deluded into thinking that they're supposed to be saviors while gleefully torching the villages of innocent, peaceful non-humans and magic-users and believing it completely okay to murder even infants for not being human. Troopers that don't do that kind of thing are an exception, either because they start seeing through the lies or because they find it a waste of energy killing obvious non-combatants when it ought to be directed towards actual threats. The guy that goes around killing prostitutes because 'I'm doing this to make the world a better place!' has convinced himself he's not a bad guy either, he's still a very bad and evil guy. Doesn't matter how much you delude yourself evil is evil.

He is not evil, because like zombies they have no souls, and to my knowledge no cs trooper hasn't done anything you claim they have.

[Nightmask]

Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...

Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.

That's certainly one way to look at it. Of course the CS doesn't view themselves as the "bad guy", or that they may potentially cause another Dark Age. I think that's part of the "I hate the CS!" problem too many people look at them from the outside, the whole Deathshead symbology, following Hitler's example, etc., and forget the CS's point of view, namely that they see themselves as saviours of humanity.

I think people manage to see things just fine, such as the people being deluded into thinking that they're supposed to be saviors while gleefully torching the villages of innocent, peaceful non-humans and magic-users and believing it completely okay to murder even infants for not being human. Troopers that don't do that kind of thing are an exception, either because they start seeing through the lies or because they find it a waste of energy killing obvious non-combatants when it ought to be directed towards actual threats. The guy that goes around killing prostitutes because 'I'm doing this to make the world a better place!' has convinced himself he's not a bad guy either, he's still a very bad and evil guy. Doesn't matter how much you delude yourself evil is evil.

He is not evil, because like zombies they have no souls, and to my knowledge no cs trooper hasn't done anything you claim they have.

Then you haven't read the material on the CS, as they most definitely torched entire villages of innocent aliens. The reason Larson was arrested and forced to flee the CS with his loyal troops was due to being given a direct order to massacre a peaceful D-Bee village that they discovered and his refusing to kill them. At which point another group went and promptly killed everyone in the entire village. It's the entire basis for the CS and why it's an evil empire, all the propaganda even says 'if it's a D-bee don't be fooled, no matter how innocent it looks it's a monster to be killed just for existing!'. Anyone making the mistake of suggesting that maybe they aren't all evil ends up 'reeducated' if he's lucky, or far worse if not. That's all very much in the source material regarding the CS.

[llywelyn]

Then you haven't read the material on the CS, as they most definitely torched entire villages of innocent aliens.

Define innocent.

all the propaganda even says 'if it's a D-bee don't be fooled, no matter how innocent it looks it's a monster to be killed just for existing!'.

And Tarn and Mr. Siembieda have their own anti-CS propaganda.

All the same, it remains true that in-world there's no scalable way to differentiate "good" (per alignment) Dbees from evil ones or from the arbitrarily-defined "monster" races. And if your mission is to preserve humanity - which it should be - at a political level this is what you work with.

It's fine for you to hate on the CS, but no reason to poke at the boy for his views.

[Nightmask]

Then you haven't read the material on the CS, as they most definitely torched entire villages of innocent aliens.

Define innocent.

Minding their own business not hurting anyone just trying to survive and make a living for their families. You know, INNOCENT. People that didn't do anything to the CS beyond exist.

all the propaganda even says 'if it's a D-bee don't be fooled, no matter how innocent it looks it's a monster to be killed just for existing!'.

And Tarn and Mr. Siembieda have their own anti-CS propaganda.

All the same, it remains true that in-world there's no scalable way to differentiate "good" (per alignment) Dbees from evil ones or from the arbitrarily-defined "monster" races. And if your mission is to preserve humanity - which it should be - at a political level this is what you work with.

And you'd be a complete monster yourself if your policy is 'kill them all all that matters is us', whether you're human or a d-bee. 'All <insert any ethnic or religious orientation> are evil for existing and should be killed for the good of humanity' is seen rightly as nothing but prejudice and hate masquerading as a 'good' thing, it's no less evil when instead of targeting Jews or Blacks you're targeting aliens because 'well we can't tell good ones apart from the bad'.

It's fine for you to hate on the CS, but no reason to poke at the boy for his views.

You know, it's really tiresome when people keep tossing that 'stop hating on the CS' nonsense out every time someone points out that they are NOT the good guys and the actual good people are in a very small minority. Pointing out the facts regarding what the CS is actually written as in the books is not 'hating on the CS' it's stating what they actually are. Might as well try and paint Atlantis as a great and noble kingdom seeking to save those primitive humans from themselves, because neither portrayal is anything but completely wrong.

[llywelyn]

Minding their own business not hurting anyone just trying to survive and make a living for their families. You know, INNOCENT. People that didn't do anything to the CS beyond exist.

Except (a) you only know that through writer's fiat and (b) that's not true.

The earth is not their home and their "nothing beyond existing" in territory the CS claims for humanity constitutes invasion. Modern nations don't execute foreigners for not having passports, but that's because (a) there's a country to send them back to and (b) even in the very worst cases - spies and terrorists - once you take away their weapons they're only human and can be easily incarcerated. In the case of America, there's no power on earth that could force us to free them if we didn't want to.

None of that applies at all to Dbees.

Even the very kindest, best aligned ones potentially carry pathogens and certainly suffer a dual loyalty.

And you'd be a complete monster yourself if your policy is 'kill them all all that matters is us', whether you're human or a d-bee.

That's nonsense. A being that doesn't protect itself and its family first and foremost will go extinct. If you're confused on the point, look up the Moriori sometime.

Of course, the humane thing to do would be to loudly and continuously explain your policy and ensure the Dbees know they are not welcome and need to leave and have the opportunity to do so. It's not really legitimate to say the CS has been lax on that front.

On a case by case basis, a mage could go through and slowly tell good aligned from bad and... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work for magicians, thanks to mental blocks and hidden auras and other natural powers added to restore the natural uncertainty that makes the CS's policy the only legitimate one for human survival. In a realistic world, Lazlo would implode in selfish backbiting and alien betrayal... just like the Federation of Magic in fact did.

[llywelyn]

Fwiw, I (and the CS!) completely understand the point of view of aliens who want to protect their species and fight back or build their own kingdoms. That's their business, just like it's the CS's business to oppose them.

But inasmuch as all of us are humans, it's somewhat questionable that you wouldn't advocate our survival and loathsome that the Rifter article (mentioned above) actively opposes it. It's a fantasy version of the environmentalists who go beyond wanting to make the earth clean and end up wanting to cleanse the earth of us.

The parallel you want to draw is that real-world Racist Group X wants to rid the world of all the other races and they're monsters. Except the analogy (and I know Mr. Siembieda shares it with you) doesn't work. There is scientifically no valid difference between Group X and all the other races they dislike. It's cultural, so even if they did win and replaced the world, subgroups would form and keep trying to kill each other. It's human nature and we have to try. real. hard. to get past it and live together or it will. never. end.

But none of that applies to the Xiticix (which you and the books agree with) and very little of it can be applied to the Dbees as currently written (which you oppose, but only because you can read the alignments on their character sheets).

Of course, unless you're Buddhist and more concerned with Life itself than with the human lives of your family and children.

[Balabanto]

The problem with the CS, in my opinion, is that there's no counter-movement within it that is more reasonable. No government this large can exist without some form of in-house opposition, regardless of it's opinion. Their Psi-division isn't running around checking for signs of revolution, either. They're just running around being police and stopping ordinary crime, for the most part, except for the ones in true military positions.

All of my problems with the CS involve their logistics and operations. In combat, they're absolutely devastating. My PC's would rather fight dozens of demons than the Coalition states, because missiles are the great equalizer, and Demons generally prefer to use magic.

But this stuff about magically producing a new army from scratch to fight Tolkeen? Ridiculous!

No one seizing the day to attack the Coalition States and open up a second front when EVERYONE outside their borders hates them? ALSO ridiculous.

It's not the nation. It's the plot immunity and impossibility of failure. As an atmosphere piece, I love the Coalition States, because the PC's are scared of this monolithic tyranny that threatens their lives.

As far as logistics, common sense, etc, these guys should be on their last legs. Their two strongholds of power are separated by a thousand miles, their chief scientist, Desmond Bradford, is completely insane, and their resources can't be supported given their own population.

And, there are too many groups interested in bringing them down while they're weak. Tolkeen has become their Vietnam, a nasty bog-down where they try to eliminate insurgents, battle revenge squads (Tolkeen Liberation Front, anyone?), and keep adventurers out.

With the Xiticix on the horizon, the minion war brewing, and all of these other factors, the CS should be in BIG trouble. But there's absolutely NO indication that this is actually the case.

WHERE ARE ALL THESE EXTRA PEOPLE COMING FROM? It's a raw population issue on a prima facie basis.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Then you haven't read the material on the CS, as they most definitely torched entire villages of innocent aliens. The reason Larson was arrested and forced to flee the CS with his loyal troops was due to being given a direct order to massacre a peaceful D-Bee village that they discovered and his refusing to kill them. At which point another group went and promptly killed everyone in the entire village. It's the entire basis for the CS and why it's an evil empire, all the propaganda even says 'if it's a D-bee don't be fooled, no matter how innocent it looks it's a monster to be killed just for existing!'. Anyone making the mistake of suggesting that maybe they aren't all evil ends up 'reeducated' if he's lucky, or far worse if not. That's all very much in the source material regarding the CS.

can you think of any more or just that one?

[Nightmask]

Minding their own business not hurting anyone just trying to survive and make a living for their families. You know, INNOCENT. People that didn't do anything to the CS beyond exist.

Except (a) you only know that through writer's fiat and (b) that's not true.

The earth is not their home and their "nothing beyond existing" in territory the CS claims for humanity constitutes invasion. Modern nations don't execute foreigners for not having passports, but that's because (a) there's a country to send them back to and (b) even in the very worst cases - spies and terrorists - once you take away their weapons they're only human and can be easily incarcerated. In the case of America, there's no power on earth that could force us to free them if we didn't want to.

None of that applies at all to Dbees.

Even the very kindest, best aligned ones potentially carry pathogens and certainly suffer a dual loyalty.

Yeah, sorry, but you're wrong. Those D-Bees in at least most cases have lived on Rifts Earth for Generations, it's as much their home as it is the CS's home. They are as much natives as the white settlers's descendents became natives of North America. It also doesn't matter that I know that CS is engaging in acts of genocide due to reading the books on it, that doesn't make it somehow less valid when it does the opposite and completely validates the point that the CS is an evil empire. They don't stop being evil empires because 'well they don't think they are'. A terrorist who blows up a bomb in the middle of a crowded street doesn't become good because 'well he thought it was justified'.

And you'd be a complete monster yourself if your policy is 'kill them all all that matters is us', whether you're human or a d-bee.

That's nonsense. A being that doesn't protect itself and its family first and foremost will go extinct. If you're confused on the point, look up the Moriori sometime.

I'm not confused about anything. 'Hey those people over there are different than us we need to kill them to protect ourselves' is NOT protecting yourself. It's murder that you try and make up excuses for how it's okay when it's not. There are way too many people in the world right this minute killing people because they're the wrong color, race, religion, country, etc as far as they're concerned and tell themselves how it's okay because they're 'protecting' themselves. Total nonsense, it's about protecting yourself at all, it's about hate and destroying anything that you don't approve of.

Of course, the humane thing to do would be to loudly and continuously explain your policy and ensure the Dbees know they are not welcome and need to leave and have the opportunity to do so. It's not really legitimate to say the CS has been lax on that front.

On a case by case basis, a mage could go through and slowly tell good aligned from bad and... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work for magicians, thanks to mental blocks and hidden auras and other natural powers added to restore the natural uncertainty that makes the CS's policy the only legitimate one for human survival. In a realistic world, Lazlo would implode in selfish backbiting and alien betrayal... just like the Federation of Magic in fact did.

'We plan on killing you all so that nothing that isn't human is no longer alive on this planet' is the CS policy, and as you yourself point out they have no place to go back to. They can either run and try and survive the dangers of Rifts Earth for someplace else relative safe all while the CS is expanding behind them and do nothing but give their descendents a few more generations of life before the CS kills them for existing or try and find some way to defend what little land they have.

[llywelyn]

The problem with the CS, in my opinion, is that there's no counter-movement within it that is more reasonable.

This is unquestionably true.

Internal dysfunction was handwaved away, but there are no fascist states that actual work in the short term, let alone the long one. Really good article at Forbes right now about the "Five Leadership Mistakes of the Galactic Empire", talking about how these Super Baddie societies can't possibly work and open themselves up for destruction by the heroes.

For instance:

Mistake #3: Having no tolerance for failure.

...Even beyond this one mistake, by adopting a management style of “failure leads to Force choking,” Vader developed an organizational culture that was destined to be weak. People would be afraid to offer feedback or suggestions, choosing instead to follow orders to the letter. This ensures that decisions are made at a very high level, and anyone under those levels will lack initiative or the ability to act on their local knowledge. What’s more, by punishing failure so harshly, the Empire provides an incentive for people within the organization to actually lead their superiors to failure. After all, the quickest way to promotion in the Empire is for your boss to make a mistake, so it’s in your own best interests to ensure that he does.

GMs can fix that, but Palladium pretty much ignores it. Sourcebook 1 goes so far as to say the upper levels of management are all selfish and evil, but don't want power and wouldn't betray the leadership... Say what?

resources can't be supported given their own population.

In their defense, they have super-GenModd'd food supplies and potentially automated factories. There are resources they should be taking better care of (like uranium and sulfur), but mostly the tech level seems to support them.

WHERE ARE ALL THESE EXTRA PEOPLE COMING FROM? It's a raw population issue on a prima facie basis.

Well, it does say in the old RMB that something like 40% of the burbs die of violence or disease every year. Maybe it was an early reveal that the Computer has opened up the Cloning Vats.

[llywelyn]

A terrorist who blows up a bomb in the middle of a crowded street doesn't become good because 'well he thought it was justified'.

No. But the context for it never being good (and it isn't) depends (a) upon the fact that terrorism is a horribly ineffective way to correct injustice and (b) all of us being humans.

I'm not confused about anything. 'Hey those people over there are different than us we need to kill them to protect ourselves' is NOT protecting yourself. It's murder that you try and make up excuses for how it's okay when it's not.

That's highly confused.

Murder is one thing, euthanasia is another, execution is another, war is another, manslaughter a fifth, reckless homicide a sixth, vengeance a seventh, self-defense, etc., etc., etc. ...

I find it highly unlikely you play a pacifistic campaign, and yet you are paying no attention to any context at all aside from their alignment. Works fine for a one-off role-playing session (as long as you're psychic and the GM isn't feeling sneaky) but not at all well as a social policy, let alone a means of survival.

Here's a link to the Wiki article on the Moriori. You really ought to read it sometime.

...and as you yourself point out they have no place to go back to.

No. The CS has no recognized gov't to easily dump them off on is what I said.

Although, come to think of it, you're absolutely right that the more humane thing to do would be to dump them through the St. Louis rift.

Congratulations! You actually changed someone's mind and won an argument on the internet.

[... And it is in fact very, very hard for me to think of another example that I myself have witnessed. Wow.]

[flatline]

The earth is not their home

Please explain how them living here on Earth yet the Earth isn't their home.

--flatline

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The earth is not their home

Please explain how them living here on Earth yet the Earth isn't their home.

--flatline

Because they are illegal aliens and we of CSINS are serious about our job here

[Zamion138]

The CS is just easy story writing for a GM, if any player is a magic user or non human. Well these guys in black with the shiny rich toys are pre-made and ready to fight.
If you have a party of all human headhunters and a non psi operator its harder to say here lets go fight the guys that give the best paying contracts and where you get all your replacement parts and where you take R&R.
So inless the players want to be difficult and have half the party be pro-human and the other half Non-human (thats a nightmare to GM) then you got the CS wanting to hurt your budy or team mate at the least cuase hes blue and yellow skined even though he has saved your life 20 times over. makes you not want to let that happen.

[Balabanto]

The CS is just easy story writing for a GM, if any player is a magic user or non human. Well these guys in black with the shiny rich toys are pre-made and ready to fight.
If you have a party of all human headhunters and a non psi operator its harder to say here lets go fight the guys that give the best paying contracts and where you get all your replacement parts and where you take R&R.
So inless the players want to be difficult and have half the party be pro-human and the other half Non-human (thats a nightmare to GM) then you got the CS wanting to hurt your budy or team mate at the least cuase hes blue and yellow skined even though he has saved your life 20 times over. makes you not want to let that happen.

Except that there's a hypocritical fallacy here. Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.

[flatline]

Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.

Where is this stated? Is this cannon?

--flatline

[llywelyn]

The earth is not their home

Please explain how them living here on Earth yet the Earth isn't their home.

Sorry if that's confusing. I know they have questionable loyalties, but of course the writers' home is earth.

I was talking about the Dbees, whose homeland is elsewhere by definition.

[llywelyn]

Is this cannon?

No.

This is cannon.

I know that's a really common mistake here, so nothin' personal. Still, bears pointing out.

[Balabanto]

Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.

Where is this stated? Is this cannon?

--flatline

Its in the xiticix book, which no one reads.

[Mercdog]

Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.

Where is this stated? Is this cannon?

--flatline

Well... I think "Trust" might be a bit much.

I can't quote the exact passage at the moment, but according to CWC (and a brief mention in Skraypers under the Tandoori R.C.C.), the CS will use d-bee (and more rarely magic using) mercenaries from time to time. Essentially, if they know your working towards furthering a goal they also desire, like the destruction of the xiticix, they tend to treat you a little better. Or at least won't interfere or attack you unless given good reason.

However, even a d-bee merc with preferred status probably shouldn't stick around for long after the jobs done, nor expect a heartfelt "Thank you."

[flatline]

The earth is not their home

Please explain how them living here on Earth yet the Earth isn't their home.

Sorry if that's confusing. I know they have questionable loyalties, but of course the writers' home is earth.

I was talking about the Dbees, whose homeland is elsewhere by definition.

What is a "homeland"? Many "D-bees" were born on Rifts Earth and have never known any other home. They have as much reason to call Rifts Earth their home as someone born in Chi Town.

Just because human ancestors lived on Earth before the rifts came doesn't give the CS any special claim to Earth. It's just a convenient way to justify the wholesale slaughter of other beings living on land that the CS wants to possess.

--flatline