Are Non-human Persons?

[The Baron of chaos]

This is something that other two , highly risky and "minefield" thread made me think about.
Exactly what is the the best and worst way to deal with D-Bees is most verisimile/realistic way?
Is the genocide proposed by Coalition truly the only way?
Is co-existance possible, or the meager resources and human tendency to overpopulate and NOT SHARE will make this problematic(if we could we would gladly wipe out all life form of planet but us!)
If a D-Bees species has been on Earth for more than generation do this grant them the same right as humans to inhabit the planet?
And what about refugees? All considered should they be granted asylum rights or not?
Is it possible to keep one ethical behaviour toward them or the situation simply make that an luxury we can afford?
Killing non-combattants and child D-Bees does classify as "bad"? Is still an horrible thing to do?
And Mutants? What about them?
Expecially the ones created by man...what sort of right they should get? Is fair for them being treated as "stuff"?
And Is Free Quebec banishing Dog Boys(If there is someoen that deserve an invasion of entities, or a permanent connection portal with Madhaven is Free Quebec let it rain entities over entities on them I say).

[Killer Cyborg]

This is something that other two , highly risky and "minefield" thread made me think about.
Exactly what is the the best and worst way to deal with D-Bees is most verisimile/realistic way?
Is the genocide proposed by Coalition truly the only way?
Is co-existance possible, or the meager resources and human tendency to overpopulate and NOT SHARE will make this problematic(if we could we would gladly wipe out all life form of planet but us!)
If a D-Bees species has been on Earth for more than generation do this grant them the same right as humans to inhabit the planet?
And what about refugees? All considered should they be granted asylum rights or not?
Is it possible to keep one ethical behaviour toward them or the situation simply make that an luxury we can afford?
Killing non-combattants and child D-Bees does classify as "bad"? Is still an horrible thing to do?
And Mutants? What about them?
Expecially the ones created by man...what sort of right they should get? Is fair for them being treated as "stuff"?
And Is Free Quebec banishing Dog Boys(If there is someoen that deserve an invasion of entities, or a permanent connection portal with Madhaven is Free Quebec let it rain entities over entities on them I say).

In order:
Integration ideally, deportation secondarily, segregation as a third option, followed by elimination.
No.
It is possible in most cases.
No.
Sometimes.
It is possible.
Yes.
What about them?
Same rights as humans, except possibly when dealing with breeding. No.
Huh?

[Shark_Force]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

[The Baron of chaos]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

This sir, is the greatest ansdwer ever given in this thread. You win a pile of bisexual Altarian Blind Warrior women complete of Nipple armor...and nothing else

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

Never understimate the craving for resources of humankind. Even in Prehistoric era we engaged in war for territory and else. Also we seem to reproduce in crepy super fast way in Rifts earth...there is no shortage of grunts...

[The Baron of chaos]

D-Bees = Zebra Mussels. nuff said.

Hmm excpet Zebra Mussels does not beg for their life, nor did they fight back if cornered, nor vow revenge for the death of beloved( be afraid very afraid of a D.bee Batman or worst a D-Bee Punisher). The only thing they have in common is being species that against their will have been brought in alien environment and try to survive.
After all what the mussels will do? Die because we humans say so? Seem to me that nature have no damn problem with it(Ecosystems, sadly, changes. Naturally not as fast, but changes)it is us that go screwed.

[Killer Cyborg]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

So... if there are millions of something, there must be an easily-obtainable and effectively infinite supply?

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The player character races are people, is all I'm going to say on this.

[DhAkael]

WUT?
Um seriously... WUT?!
I never..how the...INTERNET?

[Nightmask]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

So... if there are millions of something, there must be an easily-obtainable and effectively infinite supply?

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

True, but you can't tell a dangerous human threat from a non-dangerous human either. You can no more go 'well just better to treat all non-humans as evil and dangerous even if they aren't' than you can go 'all humans are safe and trustworthy'. Humans turn on each other all the time, it's more than hypocritical of one to insist 'well better to just assume you're dangerous because I can't tell you apart from a harmless one' when you can't do that with humans either.

[flatline]

Any intelligent being is a "person" and, circumstances permitting, should always be given the chance to show you what kind of person they are.

My beef with the CS is that they decided that being non-human is sufficient cause by itself to warrant a death penalty.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

The Altess are what the human race would become without the CS.
They are pro-human but see value in the lesser races and are willing to use them for personal benefit.
If we were able to exterminate the CS and start using the lesser races in a similar manner, our technology would rapidly progress too (well that is what happens in every other science fiction medium when alien tech is introduced).
The "Pro human" CS are the one thing that are holding the human race of Earth back and probably quite intentionally. It is easier to oppress the unenlightened.

[DhAkael]

The Altess are what the human race would become without the CS.
They are pro-human but see value in the lesser races and are willing to use them for personal benefit.
If we were able to exterminate the CS and start using the lesser races in a similar manner, our technology would rapidly progress too (well that is what happens in every other science fiction medium when alien tech is introduced).
The "Pro human" CS are the one thing that are holding the human race of Earth back and probably quite intentionally. It is easier to oppress the unenlightened.

WURD

[Giant2005]

The Altess are what the human race would become without the CS.
They are pro-human but see value in the lesser races and are willing to use them for personal benefit.
If we were able to exterminate the CS and start using the lesser races in a similar manner, our technology would rapidly progress too (well that is what happens in every other science fiction medium when alien tech is introduced).
The "Pro human" CS are the one thing that are holding the human race of Earth back and probably quite intentionally. It is easier to oppress the unenlightened.

establish trade then. but don't allow settlements

And how exactly is that possible?
Firstly, an important aspect of a successful trade partnership is that either side actively seeking the genocide of the other agreeing party tend to terminate the agreements.
Secondly, considering that the CS have no means of dimensional travel, how do they trade with beings on other planets if they are not allowed to settle on Earth? At the very least an earthbound trading outpost must be established.

[Akashic Soldier]

I am going to put aside my regularly jackassery to address a serious issue and I would appreciate it if people didn't make light of the following post as it is all very real.

As many of you know I have strong ties to the Punk Rawk community and several Counter-Culture groups and organizations from my youth. One such group were skinheads. Although I myself was never a member of the skin head movement I was for a good many years a member of S.H.A.R.P. (Skin-heads Against Racial Predigest). It is my experience that it is very easy to say that it is all insanity from where you are sitting but understanding it is dangerous so I only sugest that people read on if they are grounded in their beliefs and conciser the following content with maturity and receive the information as it was intended (to be educational) and not subversive or racist.

The easiest thing to do in the world is hate someone else. Love and Hate are two things that people understand intrinsically as part of the human condition and as grieved as I am to admit it, loving is the more difficult of the two. Unfortunately these two aspects of our nature are not exclusive to one another. It is possible to love hating something or hate loving someone... even hate someone because you love them. More often than not hatred comes from envy or jealousy and a primal school of thinking that most people never really evolve out of but often evolve into. This is what has happened with the Coalition States.

Before I continue If you have never seen the film Romper Stomper, it is about the skinhead movement in Melbourne and I would recommend taking the time to rent it from iTunes or check it out. Although this film is about a group of racists bound together in hateful crime and not an organization bound together in hate it does explore this culture (and disturbingly accurately) and it will help you to relate to the mindset of the fanatics who live by these ideas. In the film you will watch the evolution of a young man into a fanatic loyalist skinhead and see what their world is like. Although not a perfect mirror of the Coalition States the methodology used to brainwash the people would be exactly the same (except on a larger scale) and it will help the readers here see beyond common social preconception of the Neo-Nazi Skinhead movement and see into the frightening charisma of the men (Like Karl Prosek) who breed this kind of thinking in lost souls looking for order and control over their lives.

In real life racism unions are more common than people might suspect, although we see the flyers with caricatures of ugly money hungry Jews and scoff them off the propaganda on those pamphlets is disturbingly accurate. This is not because Jews are money grubbing stereotypes but because it is easy for you or I to limit our view so that we perceive them as such and the Jews, and the Blacks, and the Whites, and the Chinese and every race of man has sins and flaws and moments of shame that can be used to exemplify the evil or inferiority of that specific group. Racists grab hold of these shortcomings and exemplify them in others and use the weakness of others to blind themselves to their own weakness and rise against a single common enemy.

Within the skinhead community there is a process called "Getting your red laces" which is a coming of age process by which new recruits head out into the city, stalk a (normally African American man) and beat him savagely. The initiate then curb stomps him or beats him to death (often with a baseball bat) and then is welcomed into the ranks. Now before you start imagining a bunch of men with para-military uniforms crudely slapped together stomping an unfortunate blackman to death keep in mind that female skinheads are JUST as common as men. This isn't some adolescent testosterone driven gang impulse. It is a way of life. I would not be surprised if the Coalition has similar unofficial initiation traditions for new recruits that the senior officers know about and look the other way on as a sort of hazing ritual. Now as you read this you are no doubt thinking "this is inhuman" but to these cultures this is a great cause for celebration and something people really get worked up over. It is better than swearing on a bible or taking some half-assed oath. The red laces mean you are for real and you're now part of the family and are always followed by drinking and raves.

But HOW right?
HOW can someone justify living this way?

Lack of information mainly, not theirs, yours. Its shocking isnt it. They're the ones that are ****** up so how is he turning this around on me?! Well, the fact is... you don't know what they do. You have not lived the lives they have and are not able to reach the conclusions they reach because you are not looking for someone to blame for why everything in the world is so messed up. And if you are (like myself) I doubt that you would have been insane enough to explore these dangerous counter-culture philosophies. Its not that I think you are naive or stupid or there is something wrong with you, I just know from personal experience that getting that close to these organizations and being able to get back out while retaining clarity is actually a very difficult thing to do. The Coalition is a state based around hatred, they are a standing army, every man woman and child are raised and conditioned to lash out against things that are different and before you start making more pre-conceptions...

I have seen half naked children barely able to walk with swastikas painted on their baby-bellies screaming blasphemies and squat $hitting on pictures of President Obama.

I'm serious here. Children are far from innocent. It is SO easy to teach a child to hate irrational and throw around racial slurs. Its terrible to watch but that's reality--babies are empty save for what we fill them with. Does this mean that these Skinheads (or the Coalition) are evil? By no means, they may do evil things but they still love their family and are doing what they think is right for God, for me, for you, for America. Well, unless you fall into one of the categories that they classify as social cancers. And that is how it is. Its terrible but there are some that are just regular everyday people that you could not pick out of the crowd who just think that the black man served society better as slaves and do not vocalize this or even express it outside of their homestead for fear of persecution. What you need to remember is, in their minds it makes sense. This hatred though often irrational by the standards of you or I, is not insane. It is often VERY calculated and thought out, almost a religion. You can expect that for every point you could raise against (any) member of the Coalition States (even the children) against a set course of behavior they could give you two that justify it. That is just how they're raised and educated and specifically why subversive material is illegal. As a single unified body rallied against the enemies of mankind the Coalition can prevail! As a bunch of free thinking left-wing hippies complaining about occupying Tolkeen they are divided and weakened and those protestors have been corrupted (maybe by magic) but most certainly by subversive D-Bee propaganda and must be purged before the infect the rest of the pure community.

Its a horrible way of thinking and by no means does it mean that Coalition Soldiers or Citizens cannot be stand up people who are great to share a coffee with or have a conversation with, you might not even notice they are a member of the CS until they start ***** about how Deadball and Juicing is a proud human tradition and what a crock it is that now they're allowing all these prissy D-Bee players into the leagues. It is the nature of hatred, like love, to be charismatic. Racist jokes are funny. They are. From the Irish man's submarine with screen doors to every black guy joke about fried chicken. We've all laughed at least once. And well, if you haven't you're either lying, more mature than is good for you, or taking life WAY to seriously and need to chill out. Racial profiling does not ALWAYS mean you are a racist. However as you will notice from shows like House M.D. and other Magnificent Bastard personalities in entertainment that people LOVE jerks. They are highly entertaining and usually rather endearing. This us or them mentality thrives in Rifts, and don't think its just the CS because short of Lazlo there are few-to-no accepting communities, so you can be guaranteed that there are Flooper and Brutosaur jokes about humans that we would find in poor taste that they would find hilarious and no doubt weekly gathering where they slag off how stupid and undeserving of their power humanity is. With the exception of races like the Almana who have evolved into an almost loving ("D-Bee Communists!!!" roar the CS masses) species there are really very few species that would not look down on other species who are different than themselves. That is how people (and things) often build their communities.

I guess my point is, from a moral and ethical standpoint yes the Coalition State's treatment of non-human persons is horrific and wrong but at the same time...

In our world, since 2003 Dolphins have been classified as intelligent Non-Human persons with IQ's exceeding that of chimps and several traits that we had previously thought to only exist in humanity, and yet most people reading this will not care or take an active stance against their slaughter and if a technology was developed that allowed us to translate their language (something I have been talking about developing for years with Diana Reiss) and these stupid fish claimed that the ocean was their ancestral home and we had no right to trawl it for fish or pump oil and to stick to the land you can be guaranteed that peoples sympathies for these loving angels of the sea would quickly give way to a territorial feud over resources. Generally people are only as evolved as the immediate needs allow them to be.

Everyone is looking to do whatever is easiest to get the most out of life and life is much MUCH easier when you can blame someone else for everything that is wrong in your life. Existing in a state of mind where you are aware of impulse and whim and do not allow these things to dictate your actions (obtaining a truly unbiased point of view and reaching for the truth and not what you want the truth to be) is a constant struggle.

Stereotyping groups, beliefs and trying to simplify life to "This is wrong" is really a dangerous path of thought and way of thinking when what we really should be asking is "Why is it wrong?" before an action is taken. We have empathy and common sense and for everything else that seems like its too hard, we have perseverance and God.

[Giant2005]

Nice post Akashic.

[Akashic Soldier]

Nice post Akashic.

And not even one boner joke. I better be careful or people might actually be on to me.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

All I'm going to say is take a good hard look as the history of humanity.
Now you think humans in general will accept non-humans as equals?
Humans can't get along with their fellow humans what makes you think humans will get along non-humans that have powers human don't?
One on one sure you can get along but once groups forming then the problems start.

[DhAkael]

Nice post Akashic.

And not even one boner joke. I better be careful or people might actually be on to me.

My posts on the CS; natch.
The avergae CS mook...evil actions but may not BE evil.
The leadership?
Oh [censored] yeah

[llywelyn]

True, but you can't tell a dangerous human threat from a non-dangerous human either. You can no more go 'well just better to treat all non-humans as evil and dangerous even if they aren't' than you can go 'all humans are safe and trustworthy'.

As mentioned in the CS thread, there are other issues.

Any number of races are simply handwaved as incurable evil, others described as almost all evil while leaving an out for PCs to be goody rebels. Theoretically, you could band the other races together to fight them off, but if the humans don't need the other races to do so, there's no need. Moreover, separating friend from foe is (in fact) unworkable and (even in theory) dangerous and time-consuming.

There's nothing that could be done about Dbee's divided loyalties. You see racial and ethnic divisions in America that would be dangerously counterproductive in an apocalyptic setting; the only way to fix them is to reset the "tribal" setting to "human" instead of X, Y, or Z ethnicity. That's doable since we all share the same DNA: nix the antimiscegenation laws and within a generation everyone is jumbled together with families loving each other across old lines. What's not doable that other factually distinct races could ever form viable interracial families. Their tribalism could be never be reset, and in any kind of scarcity those divisions would imperil human survival, except in cases like the Dog Boys where we're instinctively looked at as the pack leaders.

And again, baddie humans deprived of their tech are easily dealt with. Dbees, mages, and psionics aren't. The parallel is not human racism: the parallel is groups of people banded together who insist on constructing nuclear weapons on their own without state supervision. Even those doing so with the purest motives are too dangerous to be allowed to do so. That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

On the other hand, as mentioned before, I am a convert: the CS should be escorting the Dbees who are already here to open rifts like St. Louis rather than gunning them down. The only fly in the ointment is the potential for holding camps or transit teams to open their caretakers up to assault.

[Giant2005]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

That is the most pessimistic thing I have ever heard.
You don't think that beings that aren't racist to the extent that they have an uncontrollable compulsion to enslave their lessers exist?
Maybe I am naive but I like to think that if humanity isn't there yet, we are sure headed that way. I can't speak for aliens that may or may not exist but if they are more advanced than us, they are more likely to be a little more enlightened about social decency than us too.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think too many play a kiddie version of rifts.

[Shark_Force]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

So... if there are millions of something, there must be an easily-obtainable and effectively infinite supply?

when there are millions of them put into storage just in case, it may not be infinite, but it probably isn't hard to obtain, and the supply is certainly larger than is needed. the CS military literally was like "hey, let's give 1.5 million SAMAS to the police, and then chuck 1.5 million SAMAS into storage because we don't have any better use for them." these are not the actions of a state that has a shortage of nuclear reactor fuel, nor indeed of a state that has a shortage of electrical components, MDC armor plating, engines, etc. they could have literally armed every single soldier in the tolkeen war with a SAMAS and had hundreds of thousands of spares.

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

it gets *really* hard when you don't even try to check.

[Nightmask]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

So... if there are millions of something, there must be an easily-obtainable and effectively infinite supply?

when there are millions of them put into storage just in case, it may not be infinite, but it probably isn't hard to obtain, and the supply is certainly larger than is needed. the CS military literally was like "hey, let's give 1.5 million SAMAS to the police, and then chuck 1.5 million SAMAS into storage because we don't have any better use for them." these are not the actions of a state that has a shortage of nuclear reactor fuel, nor indeed of a state that has a shortage of electrical components, MDC armor plating, engines, etc. they could have literally armed every single soldier in the tolkeen war with a SAMAS and had hundreds of thousands of spares.

Forgetting the millions of supplies stuffed into the Skelebots that were destroyed as well. While they had a short-term life-span compared to the average since they weren't expected to last 2 years before being destroyed there were enough you could install them into a million homes to power everything a home reasonably can be expected to have and then some. There must be tens of millions of nuclear power supplies in use just in the CS alone amongst the various items that use them. At a minimum it looks like the standard supply is a very easily constructed item (unlike the special high-density supply the GB requires) to be so ubiquitous.

[Killer Cyborg]

everything we have seen about rifts earth tells me that there does not appear to be anything remotely close to any sort of resource shortage. so far as i can tell, it rains nuclear reactors from the sky on a regular basis, all sealed and ready to install into the millions of SAMAS that grow on trees.

So... if there are millions of something, there must be an easily-obtainable and effectively infinite supply?

when there are millions of them put into storage just in case....

There aren't.
What there ARE are 3.2 million old-style SAMAS that were "semi-retired" from active military service when the new SAMAS came out.
Half of these retired SAMs, 1.6 million, are still in use by the ISS.
Where the other half are, the books never tell us. Maybe they're in use by fire departments and other emergency services, maybe they're given out for certain military assignments (the book mentions them being available to commandos, special forces, and RPA SAMAS pilots), maybe they're used in training exercises, or maybe there's something else going on with them. Maybe a combination of the above.
Maybe some ARE just sitting in a warehouse, but even in that case, there's nothing saying that they still have their power sources intact.

This is one of those cases where people like to interpret the books to have something stupid going on, then to complain about their own interpretations.
Personally, I prefer to just look at what the books actually say, and come up with something reasonable that fits the facts, saving my complaints for more important stuff.

... it may not be infinite, but it probably isn't hard to obtain, and the supply is certainly larger than is needed.

I agree that the CS seems to have plenty of whatever radioactive materials they need for their army, and I agree that they seem to have a heck of a lot of nuclear power sources.
But without knowing what resources are required, we can't logically say that the resources are infinite or easy to get.
For all we know, the CS spends a lot of time and resources mining to get the materials they need, and one of the reasons for their expansion is partially to acquire more deposits.
Kind of like how the US and other countries use a hell of a lot of oil, but that doesn't mean that the stuff is always cheap or easy to get, and it's not like it rains down out of the sky.
Palladium doesn't write much or care much about economics, for good or ill, so they leave a hell of a lot of areas pretty blank.
But all that means is that we fill in those areas ourselves.
We can either fill them in in ways that make sense to us, or we can fill them in in ways that don't make sense to us.
Personally, I have no idea why people ever choose the latter.

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

it gets *really* hard when you don't even try to check.

Actually, that makes it easier.

[llywelyn]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

That is the most pessimistic thing I have ever heard.
You don't think that beings that aren't racist to the extent that they have an uncontrollable compulsion to enslave their lessers exist?

Of course not.

They just become slaves for the races that do. I again commend greater acquaintance with the history of humanity and in particular the Moriori.

Maybe I am naive but I like to think that if humanity isn't there yet, we are sure headed that way. I can't speak for aliens that may or may not exist but if they are more advanced than us, they are more likely to be a little more enlightened about social decency than us too.

It is absolutely enlightened to work together as humans to preserve our species.

It is absolutely enlightened to oppose other competitive species in order to preserve our own.

I don't see - and evolutionary biology offers no evidence - how those contradict each other or how complete racial altruism works towards the ultimate purpose of survival.

[llywelyn]

certainly with the amount of devastation and depopulation of the human species, they no longer have enough population to claim a need for the entire earth. and with the number of enemies they face, they should absolutely ally with non-humans in protecting themselves from *real* threats, as opposed to imaginary ones.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

it gets *really* hard when you don't even try to check.

Actually, that makes it easier.

Plus, the original argument was specious: with GM'd food supplies producing abundant nutrition, we'll need the whole earth within a few generations, even if the Janissary program isn't taken as canon.

[Nightmask]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

That is the most pessimistic thing I have ever heard.
You don't think that beings that aren't racist to the extent that they have an uncontrollable compulsion to enslave their lessers exist?

Of course not.

They just become slaves for the races that do. I again commend greater acquaintance with the history of humanity and in particular the Moriori.

Maybe I am naive but I like to think that if humanity isn't there yet, we are sure headed that way. I can't speak for aliens that may or may not exist but if they are more advanced than us, they are more likely to be a little more enlightened about social decency than us too.

It is absolutely enlightened to work together as humans to preserve our species.

It is absolutely enlightened to oppose other competitive species in order to preserve our own.

I don't see - and evolutionary biology offers no evidence - how those contradict each other or how complete racial altruism works towards the ultimate purpose of survival.

I guess you missed the part of evolution that includes symbiotic relationships, where two species work together for their mutual benefit. Because it's really not enlightened to go out attacking other species and creating more threats to your species than it otherwise had. See now that's not enlightened that's self-destructive. Since altruism does not mean stupid or exist as something contrary to survival. Altruism works to improve survival by reducing threats and with regards to alien species provide for diversity that helps both species survive. Meanwhile the 'kill them all' sorts go out and provoke other creatures making them into threats when they weren't originally which is contrary to survival. Going up to a thousand peaceful dragons and trying to kill them because 'well all non-humans are evil!' only causes you to have to deal with a thousand angry dragons looking to survive. Meanwhile courtesy of altruism you get them as allies and now you've a thousand dragons fighting FOR you improving your chances of survival.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

That is the most pessimistic thing I have ever heard.
You don't think that beings that aren't racist to the extent that they have an uncontrollable compulsion to enslave their lessers exist?

Of course not.

They just become slaves for the races that do. I again commend greater acquaintance with the history of humanity and in particular the Moriori.

Maybe I am naive but I like to think that if humanity isn't there yet, we are sure headed that way. I can't speak for aliens that may or may not exist but if they are more advanced than us, they are more likely to be a little more enlightened about social decency than us too.

It is absolutely enlightened to work together as humans to preserve our species.

It is absolutely enlightened to oppose other competitive species in order to preserve our own.

I don't see - and evolutionary biology offers no evidence - how those contradict each other or how complete racial altruism works towards the ultimate purpose of survival.

I guess you missed the part of evolution that includes symbiotic relationships, where two species work together for their mutual benefit. Because it's really not enlightened to go out attacking other species and creating more threats to your species than it otherwise had. See now that's not enlightened that's self-destructive. Since altruism does not mean stupid or exist as something contrary to survival. Altruism works to improve survival by reducing threats and with regards to alien species provide for diversity that helps both species survive. Meanwhile the 'kill them all' sorts go out and provoke other creatures making them into threats when they weren't originally which is contrary to survival. Going up to a thousand peaceful dragons and trying to kill them because 'well all non-humans are evil!' only causes you to have to deal with a thousand angry dragons looking to survive. Meanwhile courtesy of altruism you get them as allies and now you've a thousand dragons fighting FOR you improving your chances of survival.

First you may think of a dragon as a equal but most dragons don't, all you are is a hairless ape to them, someone to serve them.

Yes humans have used other species including other humans to our advantage.
Look at vampires in rifts sure they need protectors in daytime hours but they(humans)also know their place in that society too.
Example
The lord and master of this wilderness town is a evil foul grackle tooth named Ralph with a few buddies(fellow grackle ) and they have fondness for human females and one night a knocking on the door it's the lord and friends and your mom and sister are the special guests tonight's, your father try's to stop them, but they easily beat him up and force both of you to watch as they spend some time with the ladies. This goes for a couple of months, everybody start viewing your father as weak, well the last time dad goes all in , and get killed trying once again to protect his family, but it goes even more south and both your mom and sister are killed to, but you escape. You bounce for town to town until you find a human one , where you tell a man your story, after that he tells you join us and you will never feel weak again. While there you meet other who have the same story as yours just the monsters are different. Now hearing all of this your view point is changed all non-human are scum and need to be removed from this planet. After training, you are stationed as a base and on patrol, you run into a grackle tooth , but this is the nicest, friendliest and caring being on the planet, but you don't see that you see the monster who raped and murdered your family. Now it pay back time because he is now he is Ralph by proxy and every grackle tooth is Ralph by proxy and that will keep going and going until you kill Ralph or it may never stop.

Enlightenment is a great thing, working with others to make live worth living but soon as the resources get limited then it's about survival it's your family vs them.

[Nightmask]

I guess you missed the part of evolution that includes symbiotic relationships, where two species work together for their mutual benefit. Because it's really not enlightened to go out attacking other species and creating more threats to your species than it otherwise had. See now that's not enlightened that's self-destructive. Since altruism does not mean stupid or exist as something contrary to survival. Altruism works to improve survival by reducing threats and with regards to alien species provide for diversity that helps both species survive. Meanwhile the 'kill them all' sorts go out and provoke other creatures making them into threats when they weren't originally which is contrary to survival. Going up to a thousand peaceful dragons and trying to kill them because 'well all non-humans are evil!' only causes you to have to deal with a thousand angry dragons looking to survive. Meanwhile courtesy of altruism you get them as allies and now you've a thousand dragons fighting FOR you improving your chances of survival.

First you may think of a dragon as a equal but most dragons don't, all you are is a hairless ape to them, someone to serve them.

Yes humans have used other species including other humans to our advantage.
Look at vampires in rifts sure they need protectors in daytime hours but they(humans)also know their place in that society too.
Example
The lord and master of this wilderness town is a evil foul grackle tooth named Ralph with a few buddies(fellow grackle ) and they have fondness for human females and one night a knocking on the door it's the lord and friends and your mom and sister are the special guests tonight's, your father try's to stop them, but they easily beat him up and force both of you to watch as they spend some time with the ladies. This goes for a couple of months, everybody start viewing your father as weak, well the last time dad goes all in , and get killed trying once again to protect his family, but it goes even more south and both your mom and sister are killed to, but you escape. You bounce for town to town until you find a human one , where you tell a man your story, after that he tells you join us and you will never feel weak again. While there you meet other who have the same story as yours just the monsters are different. Now hearing all of this your view point is changed all non-human are scum and need to be removed from this planet. After training, you are stationed as a base and on patrol, you run into a grackle tooth , but this is the nicest, friendliest and caring being on the planet, but you don't see that you see the monster who raped and murdered your family. Now it pay back time because he is now he is Ralph by proxy and every grackle tooth is Ralph by proxy and that will keep going and going until you kill Ralph or it may never stop.

Enlightenment is a great thing, working with others to make live worth living but soon as the resources get limited then it's about survival it's your family vs them.

A distressingly pessimistic outlook on things, and as I noted attacking PEACEFUL dragons is a bad idea, making enemies where you didn't have them before. If you're going to be too stupid to take time to figure out what actually is and isn't a threat to you you're not going to survive very long so if you're going to make things out about things from a purely biological evolutionary standpoint creatures too stupid to tell the difference between a non-threat, a threat they can handle, and one that'll end their family line don't tend to pass on their genes unless they're lucky enough to do so before getting killed attacking something that they shouldn't have.

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are. You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value to bother finding out if something's evil and dangerous to you or not. It doesn't matter if it's racist whites going 'well none of those blacks are any good, should just kill em all' or a racist human going 'well all those d-bees aren't any good, should just kill them all'.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I guess you missed the part of evolution that includes symbiotic relationships, where two species work together for their mutual benefit. Because it's really not enlightened to go out attacking other species and creating more threats to your species than it otherwise had. See now that's not enlightened that's self-destructive. Since altruism does not mean stupid or exist as something contrary to survival. Altruism works to improve survival by reducing threats and with regards to alien species provide for diversity that helps both species survive. Meanwhile the 'kill them all' sorts go out and provoke other creatures making them into threats when they weren't originally which is contrary to survival. Going up to a thousand peaceful dragons and trying to kill them because 'well all non-humans are evil!' only causes you to have to deal with a thousand angry dragons looking to survive. Meanwhile courtesy of altruism you get them as allies and now you've a thousand dragons fighting FOR you improving your chances of survival.

First you may think of a dragon as a equal but most dragons don't, all you are is a hairless ape to them, someone to serve them.

Yes humans have used other species including other humans to our advantage.
Look at vampires in rifts sure they need protectors in daytime hours but they(humans)also know their place in that society too.
Example
The lord and master of this wilderness town is a evil foul grackle tooth named Ralph with a few buddies(fellow grackle ) and they have fondness for human females and one night a knocking on the door it's the lord and friends and your mom and sister are the special guests tonight's, your father try's to stop them, but they easily beat him up and force both of you to watch as they spend some time with the ladies. This goes for a couple of months, everybody start viewing your father as weak, well the last time dad goes all in , and get killed trying once again to protect his family, but it goes even more south and both your mom and sister are killed to, but you escape. You bounce for town to town until you find a human one , where you tell a man your story, after that he tells you join us and you will never feel weak again. While there you meet other who have the same story as yours just the monsters are different. Now hearing all of this your view point is changed all non-human are scum and need to be removed from this planet. After training, you are stationed as a base and on patrol, you run into a grackle tooth , but this is the nicest, friendliest and caring being on the planet, but you don't see that you see the monster who raped and murdered your family. Now it pay back time because he is now he is Ralph by proxy and every grackle tooth is Ralph by proxy and that will keep going and going until you kill Ralph or it may never stop.

Enlightenment is a great thing, working with others to make live worth living but soon as the resources get limited then it's about survival it's your family vs them.

A distressingly pessimistic outlook on things, and as I noted attacking PEACEFUL dragons is a bad idea, making enemies where you didn't have them before. If you're going to be too stupid to take time to figure out what actually is and isn't a threat to you you're not going to survive very long so if you're going to make things out about things from a purely biological evolutionary standpoint creatures too stupid to tell the difference between a non-threat, a threat they can handle, and one that'll end their family line don't tend to pass on their genes unless they're lucky enough to do so before getting killed attacking something that they shouldn't have.

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are. You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value to bother finding out if something's evil and dangerous to you or not. It doesn't matter if it's racist whites going 'well none of those blacks are any good, should just kill em all' or a racist human going 'well all those d-bees aren't any good, should just kill them all'.

No it's realistic outlook, and I never seen a peaceful dragon, only time they are peaceful is when the lesser creatures are paying tribute to them. I didn't see the topic about CS supply of samas but it got in here didn't it. Sure they deserve the same rights, but I can't see a dragon spending it lifetime in jail because it killed a lesser creature. Would you get life for killing a dog or cat?
Survival of the fittest is the name of the game

[Nightmask]

A distressingly pessimistic outlook on things, and as I noted attacking PEACEFUL dragons is a bad idea, making enemies where you didn't have them before. If you're going to be too stupid to take time to figure out what actually is and isn't a threat to you you're not going to survive very long so if you're going to make things out about things from a purely biological evolutionary standpoint creatures too stupid to tell the difference between a non-threat, a threat they can handle, and one that'll end their family line don't tend to pass on their genes unless they're lucky enough to do so before getting killed attacking something that they shouldn't have.

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are. You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value to bother finding out if something's evil and dangerous to you or not. It doesn't matter if it's racist whites going 'well none of those blacks are any good, should just kill em all' or a racist human going 'well all those d-bees aren't any good, should just kill them all'.

No it's realistic outlook, and I never seen a peaceful dragon, only time they are peaceful is when the lesser creatures are paying tribute to them. I didn't see the topic about CS supply of samas but it got in here didn't it. Sure they deserve the same rights, but I can't see a dragon spending it lifetime in jail because it killed a lesser creature. Would you get life for killing a dog or cat?
Survival of the fittest is the name of the game

Except it's not survival of the fittest, no matter how much you want to insist that it is. Whether one is or is not a person has absolutely nothing to do with survival, no matter how much the 'us vs them' crowd use such propaganda to delude people into going along with them. Also given dragons aren't real you haven't seen a dangerous one either, and there are references to good dragons throughout the Palladium books. In fact there's a reference to a dimension of dragons so peaceful and cultured and orderly that if they knew what their more commonly known 'cousins' are up to in the rest of the Megaverse they'd come calling to forcefully educate them on proper behavior and curb their primitive and savage ways.

There's also more to existence than survival, animals work at surviving but spend their short lives occupied with fear, hunting, trying to breed, and nothing else. Sentient beings require more than mere survival to validate their existence, and even if survival were all they cared for as I've already pointed out and you've ignored it's contrary to survival to go around attacking things that can kill you and provoking fights that increase the threats to your own species. It's as stupid as the 98 lb weakling chess club going up to the biggest toughest kid in school and attacking him because he's different than them when he never did anything to them and making him AND his buddies their enemy. If you're too arrogant or too stupid to know you ought to leave people alone who aren't bothering you then you really don't deserve to live because you're a detriment to your entire species. You definitely aren't an asset.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

A distressingly pessimistic outlook on things, and as I noted attacking PEACEFUL dragons is a bad idea, making enemies where you didn't have them before. If you're going to be too stupid to take time to figure out what actually is and isn't a threat to you you're not going to survive very long so if you're going to make things out about things from a purely biological evolutionary standpoint creatures too stupid to tell the difference between a non-threat, a threat they can handle, and one that'll end their family line don't tend to pass on their genes unless they're lucky enough to do so before getting killed attacking something that they shouldn't have.

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are. You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value to bother finding out if something's evil and dangerous to you or not. It doesn't matter if it's racist whites going 'well none of those blacks are any good, should just kill em all' or a racist human going 'well all those d-bees aren't any good, should just kill them all'.

No it's realistic outlook, and I never seen a peaceful dragon, only time they are peaceful is when the lesser creatures are paying tribute to them. I didn't see the topic about CS supply of samas but it got in here didn't it. Sure they deserve the same rights, but I can't see a dragon spending it lifetime in jail because it killed a lesser creature. Would you get life for killing a dog or cat?
Survival of the fittest is the name of the game

Except it's not survival of the fittest, no matter how much you want to insist that it is. Whether one is or is not a person has absolutely nothing to do with survival, no matter how much the 'us vs them' crowd use such propaganda to delude people into going along with them. Also given dragons aren't real you haven't seen a dangerous one either, and there are references to good dragons throughout the Palladium books. In fact there's a reference to a dimension of dragons so peaceful and cultured and orderly that if they knew what their more commonly known 'cousins' are up to in the rest of the Megaverse they'd come calling to forcefully educate them on proper behavior and curb their primitive and savage ways.

There's also more to existence than survival, animals work at surviving but spend their short lives occupied with fear, hunting, trying to breed, and nothing else. Sentient beings require more than mere survival to validate their existence, and even if survival were all they cared for as I've already pointed out and you've ignored it's contrary to survival to go around attacking things that can kill you and provoking fights that increase the threats to your own species. It's as stupid as the 98 lb weakling chess club going up to the biggest toughest kid in school and attacking him because he's different than them when he never did anything to them and making him AND his buddies their enemy. If you're too arrogant or too stupid to know you ought to leave people alone who aren't bothering you then you really don't deserve to live because you're a detriment to your entire species. You definitely aren't an asset.

No matter how much you claim it's not it is,even more after the coming of the rifts. Really because the author of rifts seems to disagree with that notice the number of non-humans found in CS areas and the98 lb weakling will find a way, since he knows he can't take them straight and being a chess player he would know that he need to move his pawns into place.

[llywelyn]

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are.You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value

Again, repeatedly stating that you have no concern for human survival is not the way to win converts.

It doesn't matter if it's racist whites going 'well none of those blacks are any good, should just kill em all' or a racist human going 'well all those d-bees aren't any good, should just kill them all'.

Neither is repeated confusion of human racism and Rifts speciesism.

On a personal level and within your adventure group, you are absolutely right of judging each person on their own merits. It doesn't scale up.

[Nightmask]

Except it's not survival of the fittest, no matter how much you want to insist that it is. Whether one is or is not a person has absolutely nothing to do with survival, no matter how much the 'us vs them' crowd use such propaganda to delude people into going along with them. Also given dragons aren't real you haven't seen a dangerous one either, and there are references to good dragons throughout the Palladium books. In fact there's a reference to a dimension of dragons so peaceful and cultured and orderly that if they knew what their more commonly known 'cousins' are up to in the rest of the Megaverse they'd come calling to forcefully educate them on proper behavior and curb their primitive and savage ways.

There's also more to existence than survival, animals work at surviving but spend their short lives occupied with fear, hunting, trying to breed, and nothing else. Sentient beings require more than mere survival to validate their existence, and even if survival were all they cared for as I've already pointed out and you've ignored it's contrary to survival to go around attacking things that can kill you and provoking fights that increase the threats to your own species. It's as stupid as the 98 lb weakling chess club going up to the biggest toughest kid in school and attacking him because he's different than them when he never did anything to them and making him AND his buddies their enemy. If you're too arrogant or too stupid to know you ought to leave people alone who aren't bothering you then you really don't deserve to live because you're a detriment to your entire species. You definitely aren't an asset.

No matter how much you claim it's not it is,even more after the coming of the rifts. Really because the author of rifts seems to disagree with that notice the number of non-humans found in CS areas and the98 lb weakling will find a way, since he knows he can't take them straight and being a chess player he would know that he need to move his pawns into place.

No, the author of Rifts has it that the leaders of the CS use brain-washing and misinformation to manipulate its people into going along with evil acts of conquest, murder, and wholesale genocide of other beings. Part of that misinformation is 'no really, no matter how human they act and how much they seem to love their kids and how harmless they are they're all evil monsters out to kill you', and anyone who starts going 'hey I think we're wrong' gets 'reeducated' until he thinks the approved thoughts or they end up killing him for suggesting it's wrong to go killing people just like them who weren't hurting anyone.

Frankly I can't see how there are any people who actually argue as if the CS is a great place and how it's obvious atrocities are really okay, acting as if the CS were actually real and that they were actually members of the CS. Any real aliens who went surfing the internet for information on the human species hitting here and seeing people here arguing how 'hey if aliens land here we need to kill them all!' would feel completely justified in conquering us because if we aren't smarter than that we don't deserve any better than we're willing to give. Anyone who insists someone else hasn't a right to live just because they're different for whatever reason gives up any right to expect anyone to consider him worthy of living as well, because if he's not going to rate others having that basic right he's not entitled to it himself.

[llywelyn]

Frankly I can't see how there are any people who actually argue as if the CS is a great place and how it's obvious atrocities are really okay, acting as if the CS were actually real and that they were actually members of the CS. Any real aliens who went surfing the internet for information on the human species hitting here and seeing people here arguing how 'hey if aliens land here we need to kill them all!' would feel completely justified in conquering us because if we aren't smarter than that we don't deserve any better than we're willing to give. Anyone who insists someone else hasn't a right to live just because they're different for whatever reason gives up any right to expect anyone to consider him worthy of living as well, because if he's not going to rate others having that basic right he's not entitled to it himself.

The only comfort aliens would find is that humans like you provide them with a fifth column. See also: Coptic Egyptians and the Islamic invasion.

The aliens who are benevolent will understand and either leave us alone or convert us. The aliens who aren't don't need any provocation. Your disinterest in your race's survival - provided only that goodness be done - is the highly confusing viewpoint.

Not everyone treats you well because you treat them well. In society, you're right - those people are sociopaths and we need to put them away for humanity's benefit. But you are softheartedly applying that to dealing with intelligent and powerful competing species without any concern to its applicability. The goal is human survival, not pristine morality or a pleasant reputation among the storytellers of our exterminators.* And you're not presenting a winning alternative to the CS so far.


*And such races wouldn't think you have a pleasant reputation, either: they'd find your self-defeating moralizing contemptuous and use humanity as a cautionary tale about the dangers of dealing weakly with danger.

[Nightmask]

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are.You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value

Again, repeatedly stating that you have no concern for human survival is not the way to win converts.

Given I've never stated that I really don't have anything to worry about now do I? You're the one trying to make it an issue of survival when it is not, and that whether or not someone's a person depends on whether or not you feel like killing them to make your life better or just because you've convinced yourself it'll make it better (because God knows killing someone 300 miles away out working his farm and with not a miniscule chance of threatening you is doing a great job of ensuring you survive *that's sarcasm btw* ).

It doesn't matter if it's racist whites going 'well none of those blacks are any good, should just kill em all' or a racist human going 'well all those d-bees aren't any good, should just kill them all'.

Neither is repeated confusion of human racism and Rifts speciesism.

Apparently you're confused, or have you not paid attention to the fact that racists don't consider their targets to be human and consider them as nothing but animals? Which is one of the things they use to justify their behavior. So apparently you're really missing the point, again, when you want to consider someone an animal simply for not being human. Just as you miss the point of using real world parallels to apply to more exotic story elements, the 'Fantastic Racism' trope. Humans=whites, D-bees=blacks/jews/japanese/etc, where the hate and prejudice is the same it's simply substituted different terms in the familiar RL factors.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Except it's not survival of the fittest, no matter how much you want to insist that it is. Whether one is or is not a person has absolutely nothing to do with survival, no matter how much the 'us vs them' crowd use such propaganda to delude people into going along with them. Also given dragons aren't real you haven't seen a dangerous one either, and there are references to good dragons throughout the Palladium books. In fact there's a reference to a dimension of dragons so peaceful and cultured and orderly that if they knew what their more commonly known 'cousins' are up to in the rest of the Megaverse they'd come calling to forcefully educate them on proper behavior and curb their primitive and savage ways.

There's also more to existence than survival, animals work at surviving but spend their short lives occupied with fear, hunting, trying to breed, and nothing else. Sentient beings require more than mere survival to validate their existence, and even if survival were all they cared for as I've already pointed out and you've ignored it's contrary to survival to go around attacking things that can kill you and provoking fights that increase the threats to your own species. It's as stupid as the 98 lb weakling chess club going up to the biggest toughest kid in school and attacking him because he's different than them when he never did anything to them and making him AND his buddies their enemy. If you're too arrogant or too stupid to know you ought to leave people alone who aren't bothering you then you really don't deserve to live because you're a detriment to your entire species. You definitely aren't an asset.

No matter how much you claim it's not it is,even more after the coming of the rifts. Really because the author of rifts seems to disagree with that notice the number of non-humans found in CS areas and the98 lb weakling will find a way, since he knows he can't take them straight and being a chess player he would know that he need to move his pawns into place.

No, the author of Rifts has it that the leaders of the CS use brain-washing and misinformation to manipulate its people into going along with evil acts of conquest, murder, and wholesale genocide of other beings. Part of that misinformation is 'no really, no matter how human they act and how much they seem to love their kids and how harmless they are they're all evil monsters out to kill you', and anyone who starts going 'hey I think we're wrong' gets 'reeducated' until he thinks the approved thoughts or they end up killing him for suggesting it's wrong to go killing people just like them who weren't hurting anyone.

Frankly I can't see how there are any people who actually argue as if the CS is a great place and how it's obvious atrocities are really okay, acting as if the CS were actually real and that they were actually members of the CS. Any real aliens who went surfing the internet for information on the human species hitting here and seeing people here arguing how 'hey if aliens land here we need to kill them all!' would feel completely justified in conquering us because if we aren't smarter than that we don't deserve any better than we're willing to give. Anyone who insists someone else hasn't a right to live just because they're different for whatever reason gives up any right to expect anyone to consider him worthy of living as well, because if he's not going to rate others having that basic right he's not entitled to it himself.

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla, we might think we have a chance, but in reality we are the lesser beings and will treated like such make no mistake. As for the CS, I don't think anybody said they were happy about ,just stating the facts , now you can accept or don't because honestly I don't care if you do or don't , because I will know my place but will you?

[Nightmask]

Frankly I can't see how there are any people who actually argue as if the CS is a great place and how it's obvious atrocities are really okay, acting as if the CS were actually real and that they were actually members of the CS. Any real aliens who went surfing the internet for information on the human species hitting here and seeing people here arguing how 'hey if aliens land here we need to kill them all!' would feel completely justified in conquering us because if we aren't smarter than that we don't deserve any better than we're willing to give. Anyone who insists someone else hasn't a right to live just because they're different for whatever reason gives up any right to expect anyone to consider him worthy of living as well, because if he's not going to rate others having that basic right he's not entitled to it himself.

The only comfort aliens would find is that humans like you provide them with a fifth column. See also: Coptic Egyptians and the Islamic invasion.

The aliens who are benevolent will understand and either leave us alone or convert us. The aliens who aren't don't need any provocation. Your disinterest in your race's survival - provided only that goodness be done - is the highly confusing viewpoint.

Not everyone treats you well because you treat them well. In society, you're right - those people are sociopaths and we need to put them away for humanity's benefit. But you are softheartedly applying that to dealing with intelligent and powerful competing species without any concern to its applicability.

Really need to stop deliberately misstating what I've said, as again I must correct you that I've never said anything that could be construed as a disinterest in the survival of the human race. This must be why you're confused as you keep seeing phantoms that aren't there.

It's also pretty laughable that you're supporting a 'kill them all policy' like the CS has that's applied without any consideration as to whether or not a target actually is a threat to them and dismissing someone thinking that maybe one shouldn't go killing everyone willy nilly as 'soft-hearted'. You're actually arguing in favor of the sociopaths; you know, the people who go around killing indiscriminately without concern for who they're killing just because they're there. The D-bee who helps a CS soldier can expect his 'reward' to be killed for being so 'soft-hearted' as to help a human out and expect him to appreciate it.

So let's see. You refer to all D-bees as if they're a single cohesive group (they aren't even close), you refer to them as an intelligent and powerful competing species (again, not even close, some are but many are only about as capable as a human being or Dog Boy and certainly aren't a single species), you refer to the idea of actually only killing those aliens who are an actual threat as being 'soft-hearted' and being blindly applied while simultaneously stating that people who act badly to others who act good towards them are sociopaths who need to be put away for the sake of everyone else yet defend the CS doing exactly that: acting as sociopaths towards beings who've never done them wrong. So does that pretty much cover everything? That you feel sociopathic behavior is okay, hurting people who've never harmed you and would have helped you if given the chance because 'well they aren't really people'?

[Nightmask]

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla, we might think we have a chance, but in reality we are the lesser beings and will treated like such make no mistake. As for the CS, I don't think anybody said they were happy about ,just stating the facts , now you can accept or don't because honestly I don't care if you do or don't , because I will know my place but will you?

You're not stating facts though, you're stating opinions, ones not supported by the actual facts. There are thousands of alien species on Rifts Earth because of the Cataclysm, it's not even remotely factual to lump them under a heading like 'aliens' and claim that humanity on Rifts Earth comes off as lesser beings to them all let alone that they all behave as if humans are lesser beings. Various alien races are shown working with humans and being friends and allies all over Rifts Earth, so it's certainly not a fact that they're acting as if humans were just pets or slaves. The fact some do doesn't even come close to justifying a 'kill them all' policy or 'they aren't human so we don't have to think of them as people we can kill them all without remorse'.

[llywelyn]

Again, repeatedly stating that you have no concern for human survival is not the way to win converts.

Given I've never stated that I really don't have anything to worry about now do I?

Too bad that can't be given.

Problem being, it's not so easy to tell the one from the other.

True, but [it's hypocritical for humans to assume other beings are dangerous, since humans are too.]

(Which is a nonseq. unless you're more concerned with avoiding hypocrisy than survival.)

Enlightenment is a great thing, working with others to make live worth living but soon as the resources get limited then it's about survival it's your family vs them.

A distressingly pessimistic outlook on things, and as I noted [people are too weak to survive by fighting all potential threats.]

(And that in the face of the CS's success at doing just that.)

This also isn't a discussion about 'what do beings become when pushed to the wall' but whether or not non-humans are beings deserving the same rights and chances as humans. Which they are. You don't go around killing people because it's easier to kill them because you're too overly inflated about your own value.

(There is no over-inflation to my value. I am willing to be altruistic for my family and it's evolutionarily advantageous to be so. Being altruistic for life in general is insane.)

Then there are other examples from the CS thread.

[llywelyn]

Apparently you're confused, or have you not paid attention to the fact that racists don't consider their targets to be human and consider them as nothing but animals?

There's a difference between animals and hostile invader. The CS considers the dog boys to be animals; probably misguided but there it is. They do the Dbees the courtesy of fearing them, or they'd keep them as pets and servants.

[edit: Unless this was talking about real-world racists. In which case, you're still wrong,* but for different reasons.

*Generally - it's true that Hitler and Antizionists have their rat analogies, Communists & Serbians their dogs, &c. But racism that severe is generally religious, and not what's generally meant by racism in places like America.]

Just as you miss the point of using real world parallels to apply to more exotic story elements, the 'Fantastic Racism' trope.

Are you kidding? I don't miss that at all. I've been very clear that I "get it" and that it's a horrible and massively inappropriate analogy.

And that's all for the best. If the analogy actually did hold up, it would justify racism here, not delegitimize it in Rifts. (As well as attract a very unpleasant kind of customer base.)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla, we might think we have a chance, but in reality we are the lesser beings and will treated like such make no mistake. As for the CS, I don't think anybody said they were happy about ,just stating the facts , now you can accept or don't because honestly I don't care if you do or don't , because I will know my place but will you?

You're not stating facts though, you're stating opinions, ones not supported by the actual facts. There are thousands of alien species on Rifts Earth because of the Cataclysm, it's not even remotely factual to lump them under a heading like 'aliens' and claim that humanity on Rifts Earth comes off as lesser beings to them all let alone that they all behave as if humans are lesser beings. Various alien races are shown working with humans and being friends and allies all over Rifts Earth, so it's certainly not a fact that they're acting as if humans were just pets or slaves. The fact some do doesn't even come close to justifying a 'kill them all' policy or 'they aren't human so we don't have to think of them as people we can kill them all without remorse'.

ok name them then since there are so many

[llywelyn]

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla

You're not stating facts though, you're stating opinions, ones not supported by the actual facts. There are thousands of alien species on Rifts Earth because of the Cataclysm, it's not even remotely factual to lump them under a heading like 'aliens' and claim that humanity on Rifts Earth comes off as lesser beings to them all let alone that they all behave as if humans are lesser beings. Various alien races are shown working with humans and being friends and allies all over Rifts Earth, so it's certainly not a fact that they're acting as if humans were just pets or slaves. The fact some do doesn't even come close to justifying a 'kill them all' policy or 'they aren't human so we don't have to think of them as people we can kill them all without remorse'.

ok name them then since there are so many

On top of which, he's acting like the CS is solely genocidal.

The Burbs are full of Dbees who are left alone unless they're causing trouble.

Speaking of which, he's also apparently ignorant that fully 15% of the Burbs die each year from Dbee and demon attack, according to that font of all truth Erin Tarn. (Another 20% die of disease. Given the CS's advanced GM and medicinal capability, a huge portion of that has to be xenodemic.)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Aliens fight humans that like bambi vs godzilla

You're not stating facts though, you're stating opinions, ones not supported by the actual facts. There are thousands of alien species on Rifts Earth because of the Cataclysm, it's not even remotely factual to lump them under a heading like 'aliens' and claim that humanity on Rifts Earth comes off as lesser beings to them all let alone that they all behave as if humans are lesser beings. Various alien races are shown working with humans and being friends and allies all over Rifts Earth, so it's certainly not a fact that they're acting as if humans were just pets or slaves. The fact some do doesn't even come close to justifying a 'kill them all' policy or 'they aren't human so we don't have to think of them as people we can kill them all without remorse'.

ok name them then since there are so many

On top of which, he's acting like the CS is solely genocidal.

The Burbs are full of Dbees who are left alone unless they're causing trouble.

Speaking of which, he's also apparently ignorant that fully 15% of the Burbs die each year from Dbee and demon attack, according to that font of all truth Erin Tarn.

I know but if CS did that they would be FQ

[llywelyn]

I know but if CS did that they would be FQ

I don't follow.

The CS already does that, per Tarn.

[Giant2005]

I haven't read this entire thread because it has grown so much and I plan on sleeping very soon but this popped out at me (I'll read the rest tomorrow).

They just become slaves for the races that do. I again commend greater acquaintance with the history of humanity and in particular the Moriori.

I grew up in New Zealand. As such we studied NZ history (including the Moriori) as part of our compulsory curriculum.
The thing about the Moriori that your Wikipedia article doesn't seem to put enough emphasis in, is the fact that most historians of renown consider them a myth of unknown origin. There is no physical evidence of their existence and the Maori claim no knowledge of them (admittedly, the maori had no written language before the white man came and I don't think they would be overly eager to share the fact that they wiped out the locals to the new invading force).
Whether you believe in them or not, they aren't exactly a prime example to use considering the dubious nature of their existence.

It is absolutely enlightened to oppose other competitive species in order to preserve our own.

I don't see - and evolutionary biology offers no evidence - how those contradict each other or how complete racial altruism works towards the ultimate purpose of survival.

I disagree with this whole-heatedly.
Promoting war is the polar opposite of enlightenment. It would be enlightened to learn from the foreign culture and adopt it's technology to better your race.
Bettering your race is always going to be the more enlightened option to a needless war which could end your race.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I know but if CS did that they would be FQ

I don't follow.

The CS already does that, per Tarn.

But I like to point where the CS got most of their anti dbees policies straight out of free quebec

[Jerell]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

I find that to be fairly realistic assessment actually.

At best the nonmagical would probably be second class citizens, even if it was just human magic users running the show. Let alone Dragons or other such magical beings that would probably view us as pawns to use in their games. It would be likely that Xeno control or oppression (or "guidance" if some of you would prefer) of humanity would be the order of the day, subvertly or overtly. If you had the skill subvertly would probably be easier, making the lower class think they're helping themselves when they're really just Xeno pawns.

Somehow I just think Xeno occupation of Terra would go down like the Spanish Conquest of the Canary Islands. I'm for a free humanity.

[llywelyn]

The Moriori.

I grew up in New Zealand. As such we studied NZ history (including the Moriori) as part of our compulsory curriculum.

The thing about the Moriori that your Wikipedia article doesn't seem to put enough emphasis in, is the fact that most historians of renown consider them a myth of unknown origin.

[ citation (very much) needed ]

Historians dispute whether they were originally Maori or a different race, not their existence. I'm not saying that you remember your history class wrong; just that if that is what you were taught, dollars to doughnuts it's not "most historians of reknown" but Maori revisionists similar to Turks writing on WWI or Chinese discussing the WWII-era CCP.

I disagree with this whole-heatedly.
Promoting war is the polar opposite of enlightenment. It would be enlightened to learn from the foreign culture and adopt it's technology to better your race.
Bettering your race is always going to be the more enlightened option to a needless war which could end your race.

You are somewhat correct since Buddhism and other forms of enlightenment don't tie the soul to any one species and the only vital issue is the purification of one's own soul. For instance, Siddhartha abandoned his wife, family, and responsibilities. That - and concern for humans over other species - are all just so much needless attachment.

That said, enlightenment is seeing the world as it really is and - unless the soul and reincarnation are real - the world as it is prizes survival over betterment or self-satisfaction.

You can argue the most effective means towards survival. Absolutely.

Cautious alliances might be superior, sure, if the CS really couldn't go it alone. The problem with that is it's managing just fine so far. Saying the FOM or the 3 or Atlantis might crush the CS is an argument for crushing them first, not for playing nice.

But (a) the CS is not actually genocidal (even before the camps were written off as a crazed commander, the Burbs were full of Dbees), (b) Dbees are often violent and have repeatedly betrayed and attempted to dominate mankind, even in Siembieda's pollyannaish storyline, (c) reactionary antispeciesism like Nightmask's is completely misplaced (racism is wrong because scientifically speaking there are no races, not because intelligent distinction or self-preservation are immoral), and (d) anti-human writing like the Rifter article on the Janissaries is vile.

[llywelyn]

That Lazlo continues to exist is authorial fiat/filibuster - in real life, it would be a wretched den of inhuman slavery and feudalistic privilege enforced by the magical Dbees against the lower classes.

I find that to be fairly realistic assessment actually.

At best the nonmagical would probably be second class citizens, even if it was just human magic users running the show. Let alone Dragons or other such magical beings that would probably view us as pawns to use in their games. It would be likely that Xeno control or oppression (or "guidance" if some of you would prefer) of humanity would be the order of the day, subvertly or overtly. If you had the skill subvertly would probably be easier, making the lower class think they're helping themselves when they're really just Xeno pawns.

I really don't expect much to be done with it, but it does bear pointing out that Tarn wrote Plato was running the Chicago Library under the Federation of Magic, isn't recorded as having fought for them at all, and following their rout established his new town with him as leader and ringed round with mage refugees.

They'll write him with principled alignment (or possessed by an alien intelligence ), but it still stinks.

Somehow I just think Xeno occupation of Terra would go down like the Spanish Conquest of the Canary Islands. I'm for a free humanity.

Odd we're so rare. =)