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I am just looking at the hardware in Triax II.

I'm not sure but I think the war with the Gargoyles has bought out untold greatness in NG and they are more powerful and more advanced than the Coalition States.

I have not had time to sit down with CWC and do comparisons but I am pretty sure that if there were no Gargoyles that these guys would win.

Well, consider that without a war with the gargoyles, there would never have been a need for the full militarization and that NGR probably wouldn't field such a large standing army. The CS on the other hand, actively seeks conflict to necessitate a large standing army.

yeah, triax 2's awesome technology forced a minor rethink and update in parts of RIFTS:Scandinavia. after all, the only material we had on the scandinavians had been "as advanced as the NGR". while i'm more than willing to allow the NGR to pull ahead there, due to TRIAX's ongoing research efforts, after reading triax 2 i went and dug out some elements and concepts i'd shelved and worked them into the scandinavian alliance in order to have as much wow factor as triax 2 did..

The only thing I THINK that the CS has on its side is numbers (and I have not even checked out that). What I know for sure is that the NGR machinery is (as someone who plays a Giant Robot Pilot and learned what is valuable and what is just useless high numbers) superior in nearly every way that matters.

I never imagined this book would be as good as it is!

I guess my point is (in a round about way) can the NGR defeat the Gargoyles? I havent read the entire book but with tech like this in large enough numbers I think they can!

The CS has to be concerned, at least a little.

Akashic Soldier wrote:The only thing I THINK that the CS has on its side is numbers (and I have not even checked out that). What I know for sure is that the NGR machinery is (as someone who plays a Giant Robot Pilot and learned what is valuable and what is just useless high numbers) superior in nearly every way that matters.

I never imagined this book would be as good as it is!

I guess my point is (in a round about way) can the NGR defeat the Gargoyles? I havent read the entire book but with tech like this in large enough numbers I think they can!

The CS has to be concerned, at least a little.

nope. the NGR has about 10x the population as the CS, and with total mobilization, can basically have 40% of them in the military at any given time, going by historical examples of such. even allowing for teeth-to-tail ratio, the NGR can boast a combat force larger than the CS's entire population.


the problem with fighting a quasi-nomadic, yet intellegent group like the gargoyle is that numbers alone, nor technology alone, can't win the day. look at Afghanistan. the US and NATO troops generally outnumber the taliban, and have about a centuries worth of technological and training advantage, but finding them and rooting them out has been going on for over a decade and still they aren't gone. take out one base, and the survivors just make another. takeout a major leader, a new one pops up. fighting a normal enemy you take his cities, destroy his supply bases and industry, and you win. fighting a group with no actual cities, no supply bases, no industry...and you pretty much have to wipe them out to the man. which is hard, because in human wars the other side can recruit new members. against something like the gargoyles they just hatch new generations of warriors.

at best the NGR can push them back. take out enough rookerys to give the NGR breathing room, maybe inflict enough damage to cause parts of the gargoyle empire to break away from Zerstrum*, push them out of defensable regions... but they'll always be a core of survivors looking to retake what was lost.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:The only thing I THINK that the CS has on its side is numbers (and I have not even checked out that). What I know for sure is that the NGR machinery is (as someone who plays a Giant Robot Pilot and learned what is valuable and what is just useless high numbers) superior in nearly every way that matters.

I never imagined this book would be as good as it is!

I guess my point is (in a round about way) can the NGR defeat the Gargoyles? I havent read the entire book but with tech like this in large enough numbers I think they can!

The CS has to be concerned, at least a little.

nope. the NGR has about 10x the population as the CS, and with total mobilization, can basically have 40% of them in the military at any given time, going by historical examples of such. even allowing for teeth-to-tail ratio, the NGR can boast a combat force larger than the CS's entire population.

So................................................................................................

The Gargoyles are really the only reason they don't rule Rifts Earth?

Akashic Soldier wrote:

EDIT: Nevermind I just read Page 25, a Call to Arms. Apparently the CS and NGR are allies.

Something that makes every D-Bee shudder in their sleep...

Jedrious wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

EDIT: Nevermind I just read Page 25, a Call to Arms. Apparently the CS and NGR are allies.

Something that makes every D-Bee shudder in their sleep...

*nods, nods*

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Jedrious wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

EDIT: Nevermind I just read Page 25, a Call to Arms. Apparently the CS and NGR are allies.

Something that makes every D-Bee shudder in their sleep...

*nods, nods*

It just means we're one step closer to reclaiming the earth for mankind!

allies of convience really. the NGR needs access to more food and similar goods to support it's total mobilization, and the CS wanted access to more advanced technology. IMO, once the CS has advanced their tech to the point they want, they'll let relations with the NGR lapse. assuming the NGR doesn't figure out the CS are quasi-nazi's before then, and try to cut ties from their end.

glitterboy2098 wrote:allies of convience really. the NGR needs access to more food and similar goods to support it's total mobilization, and the CS wanted access to more advanced technology. IMO, once the CS has advanced their tech to the point they want, they'll let relations with the NGR lapse. assuming the NGR doesn't figure out the CS are quasi-nazi's before then, and try to cut ties from their end.

Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

Blindscout wrote:Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

Yeah that **** won't fly with the Proseks.

Blindscout wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:allies of convience really. the NGR needs access to more food and similar goods to support it's total mobilization, and the CS wanted access to more advanced technology. IMO, once the CS has advanced their tech to the point they want, they'll let relations with the NGR lapse. assuming the NGR doesn't figure out the CS are quasi-nazi's before then, and try to cut ties from their end.

Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

The ironic contrasts between the CS and the NGR are almost poetic.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Blindscout wrote:Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

Yeah that **** won't fly with the Proseks.

The mere fact that the NGR hasn't ceded itself to the CS won't fly with the Proseks.
Even human nations who agree with the CS philosophy are unwelcome under the CS regime if they won't submit to the CS's dictatorship. Look at what happened when Free Quebec decided to revolt - the CS immediately declared war on them.

Grell wrote:

Blindscout wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:allies of convience really. the NGR needs access to more food and similar goods to support it's total mobilization, and the CS wanted access to more advanced technology. IMO, once the CS has advanced their tech to the point they want, they'll let relations with the NGR lapse. assuming the NGR doesn't figure out the CS are quasi-nazi's before then, and try to cut ties from their end.

Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

The ironic contrasts between the CS and the NGR are almost poetic.

and getting eerily close to current world outlooks

Grell wrote:

Blindscout wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:allies of convience really. the NGR needs access to more food and similar goods to support it's total mobilization, and the CS wanted access to more advanced technology. IMO, once the CS has advanced their tech to the point they want, they'll let relations with the NGR lapse. assuming the NGR doesn't figure out the CS are quasi-nazi's before then, and try to cut ties from their end.

Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

The ironic contrasts between the CS and the NGR are almost poetic.

I have to read more of the book but their predisposition to narcotics and drug-use as a society would lend itself to a rather dangerous subculture and could cost them good pilots while the CS's strict disciplinary action and control on its elite soldiers could actually serve to protect them for once. Whats that word Prosek is always throwing around...

Oh tats it! Subversion!

The NGR have to be careful of subversion. If a few of their ace pilots are kicking back at a casual night at the club and try something one time they could get hooked on something that only the Gargoyles make... and that's where things get rough for all involved. Well, except the drug dealer working for the Gee's.

Giant2005 wrote:The mere fact that the NGR hasn't ceded itself to the CS won't fly with the Proseks.
Even human nations who agree with the CS philosophy are unwelcome under the CS regime if they won't submit to the CS's dictatorship. Look at what happened when Free Quebec decided to revolt - the CS immediately declared war on them.

True but don't forget FQ did its share of ******* around too. Not showing up to War meetings, kicking back and rolling its eyes at the administration... not sharing their Glitterboy technology. They were all acting like the cool kid on the playground and palming off Prosek and his cronies as well... Prosek and his cronies. Don't show an ugly man a mirror then wave around your much larger pen!s at him, even if he is your pal. That is basic politics.

Akashic Soldier wrote:True but don't forget FQ did its share of ******* around too. Not showing up to War meetings, kicking back and rolling its eyes at the administration... not sharing their Glitterboy technology.

I'm not sure it was about sharing the GB technology, Chi-Town didn't seem interested in it and was more interested in getting it out of their inventory (CS-FQ) than into the CS as a whole IIRC RMB.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I'm not sure but I think the war with the Gargoyles has bought out untold greatness in NG and they are more powerful and more advanced than the Coalition States.

They are supposed to be as far back as SB1o and WB#5. CWC/CSN gave the CS a boost to match NGR more closely.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Blindscout wrote:
Especially considering there seems to be a sort of equal rights movement (for D-Bees) starting up in good old Deutchland.

Yeah that **** won't fly with the Proseks.

Two examples of the CS not liking something along these lines, but they are still allies:
1. NGR has a D-Bee General (Rahu-man) sitting on the Council of Govoners (CB1r)
2. Columbia in SA#1 has Dwarfs as equal right citizens

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:The mere fact that the NGR hasn't ceded itself to the CS won't fly with the Proseks.
Even human nations who agree with the CS philosophy are unwelcome under the CS regime if they won't submit to the CS's dictatorship. Look at what happened when Free Quebec decided to revolt - the CS immediately declared war on them.

True but don't forget FQ did its share of ******* around too. Not showing up to War meetings, kicking back and rolling its eyes at the administration... not sharing their Glitterboy technology. They were all acting like the cool kid on the playground and palming off Prosek and his cronies as well... Prosek and his cronies. Don't show an ugly man a mirror then wave around your much larger pen!s at him, even if he is your pal. That is basic politics.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I am just looking at the hardware in Triax II.

I'm not sure but I think the war with the Gargoyles has bought out untold greatness in NG and they are more powerful and more advanced than the Coalition States.

I have not had time to sit down with CWC and do comparisons but I am pretty sure that if there were no Gargoyles that these guys would win.

GM > toys

As is, the Coalition States has negligible rates of illness and a life expectancy double the untended normal. In case of all-out war, it could crater the NGR's population with biowarfare. Not that it would under the current leadership, but you could have a Texan coup fix that if you were really interested in that plotline.

Akashic Soldier,
I'm glad that you're diggin' it. I forget if you've stated that you have Rifters 51 and 55. If you do, that really helps add some more umph to the book.

The Galactus Kid wrote:Akashic Soldier,
I'm glad that you're diggin' it. I forget if you've stated that you have Rifters 51 and 55. If you do, that really helps add some more umph to the book.

Mike is sending me Rifter #51 with a bunch of Art and #55 was my first Rifter! It rocked!

NGR has always been more powerful than the CS.
The CS is just suppose to be the Powerhouse in North America itself. The rest of the world, the CS does not and will not be the powerhouse of the setting. I like the idea of the CS not being the bigboys they think they are, instead they are just a Bully on a small playground. The CS is the 5th grade bully to a bunch of 1-4th graders at best, while the NGR, South America, Japan, China, Russia, etc..are in the High School levels of serious drama and conflict. While Atlantis sits off to the side in his own sandbox enjoying watching everyone else's drama play out.

The CS wanted FQ to give up Glitterboys, because everyone remembers the legends of them as a noble protectors, etc... The CS wants a military would would work together and needed each other instead of using a Power Armor that was great on its own, specially in larger numbers.

I'd rather field 10K+ Glitterboys, train them, and then send them out to battle, than building inferior PA/RVs which will take heavy losses compaired to the GB-PA, who may only take a few losses.
When My ground played out some of the FQvsCS battles, the CS was slaughtered. Large Groups of GBs would target a single opponet and fire at once, Opponet gone, Next target selected, gone, then next gone, and so on...The CS does not have anything that withstand the assault that a large group of GBs can unleash at once, with their ranges...

CS was put in a bad spot from the beginning with a lot of different enemies, unlike ngr who's enemies are just brodkil and gargoyles, but switch enemies and you could change the outlook of each nation.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS was put in a bad spot from the beginning with a lot of different enemies, unlike ngr who's enemies are just brodkil and gargoyles, but switch enemies and you could change the outlook of each nation.

That is an interesting proposal actually. Hmmm... hypothetical though.