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What would be the benefits and disadvantages?

pblackcrow wrote:What would be the benefits and disadvantages?

Go get a big sheet of paper 6'X6', cut a hole big enough for you head in the middle. Wear it like a poncho, then have a friend hit you 5or6 times in the chest with a baseball bat really hard. You will then understand.

FINALLY, some one who knows what I'm talking about.

patgib wrote:Ironically, I had a diabolist who used paper armor which he warded to be indestructible. Worked for a while until my GM decided it would be funny to set it ablaze and claim that only the wards were indestructible. If you want something similar look at Greek Linen Armor (yes I know its cloth, but its a decent concept for a papyrus or hemp paper armor). Compendium of Weapons, Armor and Castles page 99. Just some ideas.

I think at least in 2nd edition there is a whole argument in the book about how this will not work. the yes, the paper was indestructivle, but the rune does not harden it or anything, so hit it with a sword, the paper would fold along the blade and you would still get sliced open.

ZorValachan wrote:

patgib wrote:Ironically, I had a diabolist who used paper armor which he warded to be indestructible. Worked for a while until my GM decided it would be funny to set it ablaze and claim that only the wards were indestructible. If you want something similar look at Greek Linen Armor (yes I know its cloth, but its a decent concept for a papyrus or hemp paper armor). Compendium of Weapons, Armor and Castles page 99. Just some ideas.

I think at least in 2nd edition there is a whole argument in the book about how this will not work. the yes, the paper was indestructivle, but the rune does not harden it or anything, so hit it with a sword, the paper would fold along the blade and you would still get sliced open.

Point is you can layer paper so it is actually a very stiff medium that is a fairly effective form of armor that runs around Light - Medium type armor, enough that it can stop blades and absorb a pretty solid amount of the force of a blow. Of course, the method binding the 'pages' together still is not indestructible and victim to falling apart under combat.

Cinos wrote:

ZorValachan wrote:

patgib wrote:Ironically, I had a diabolist who used paper armor which he warded to be indestructible. Worked for a while until my GM decided it would be funny to set it ablaze and claim that only the wards were indestructible. If you want something similar look at Greek Linen Armor (yes I know its cloth, but its a decent concept for a papyrus or hemp paper armor). Compendium of Weapons, Armor and Castles page 99. Just some ideas.

I think at least in 2nd edition there is a whole argument in the book about how this will not work. the yes, the paper was indestructivle, but the rune does not harden it or anything, so hit it with a sword, the paper would fold along the blade and you would still get sliced open.

Point is you can layer paper so it is actually a very stiff medium that is a fairly effective form of armor that runs around Light - Medium type armor, enough that it can stop blades and absorb a pretty solid amount of the force of a blow. Of course, the method binding the 'pages' together still is not indestructible and victim to falling apart under combat.

Understand, almost every gradeschooler did this as a child when I was young, layered different color papers and made some paperweight or keychain. My reply was to the guy who I thought just used runes to make paper indestructable then wore it to try to make 'armor'. Even if I understood incorrectly, if you layered it all first, it would be a composite of paper and binding and the rune effect would not work. 1 rune needs to be put per page/sheet, so it would not work after it was made composite. If they were done as individual sheets first, then everything would have to be cut/sized beforehand exactly as you couldn't alter it after the rune was placed. I am not sure if the paper loses any 'quality' in being made indestructable, such as it can't be stuck to other paper. I would say at the minimum a lot of time/money/energy/planning would need to be involved and talk it over thoroughly with the GM.

cons = Weak AR (1).

pros = +1D6x10 to damage (paper cuts are bastards).

The Dark Elf wrote:cons = Weak AR (1).

pros = +1D6x10 to damage (paper cuts are bastards).

Uh, you might want to google "paper armor" mate. Better yet, youtube it.

Although, traditionally there are accounts of the use of honey to glue the paper together and wax to seal them from harsh weather.

Didnt they do a Myth-Busters on this?

13eowulf wrote:Didn't they do a Myth-Busters on this?

Yes. Confirmed, if I remember right. If I didn't remember right, then it was found Plausible.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Didn't they do a Myth-Busters on this?

Yes. Confirmed, if I remember right. If I didn't remember right, then it was found Plausible.

Excellent, that would seem like a good place to start then for figuring out benefits and disadvantage...

I have seen paper armors tested. Big disadvantage in wet conditions, as the paper will lose almost all of its strength. Against piercing attacks it is quite good. Cutting attacks it'll resist cuts pretty well also, however especially in cutting attacks, the armor cannot withstand much abuse. It might stop a good slice from long sword across the cheast, but you are also likely to completely compromise the armor (or nearly so) in the process. Granted, it is no worse than leather armor (with the exception of wet weather, where boiled leather armor will resist wet pretty well (boiled in vinegar and wax to harden it and make it water proof)). However, it weighs more, is more cumbersom and pretty much only protects the torso.

It also is not very easy to make. Raw materials are easier to get than leather armor, but the process of making all of that paper is not necessarily easier than making leather armor, at least in ye olden times. The paper armor will resist piercing better than leather will. The paper will also act is a resonably decent blunt force trauma protector, though since it only covers your torso, it is going to do nothing to protect your head or limbs from being smashed (which actually also works great against knights in full plate armor as well, at least if you are bashing them in the head. A good stout whack on the head with a mace or the pummel of a long sword is going to knock just about anyone silly. Then a simple job of killing them).

azazel1024 wrote:I have seen paper armors tested. Big disadvantage in wet conditions, as the paper will lose almost all of its strength.

That would be why they used wax to dip them in. Plus, makes it look cool.

The problem though is that the way they were created then, even waxing them only helps so much in poor conditions. Wear and tear is going to wear through the waxing causing each successive layer to have integrity issues in wet conditions. Sure the things didn't just fall apart at the first sign of rain, but they wore out much faster than leather armor and did have issues in wet conditions for older armor. They also weighed a lot more for similar levels of protection compared to leather armor or metal armors and also generally only covered the torso.

Of course they were easier and cheaper to make, which is a big plus when attempting to armor hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

azazel1024 wrote:The problem though is that the way they were created then, even waxing them only helps so much in poor conditions. Wear and tear is going to wear through the waxing causing each successive layer to have integrity issues in wet conditions. Sure the things didn't just fall apart at the first sign of rain, but they wore out much faster than leather armor and did have issues in wet conditions for older armor. They also weighed a lot more for similar levels of protection compared to leather armor or metal armors and also generally only covered the torso.

Of course they were easier and cheaper to make, which is a big plus when attempting to armor hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

True.

pblackcrow wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:The problem though is that the way they were created then, even waxing them only helps so much in poor conditions. Wear and tear is going to wear through the waxing causing each successive layer to have integrity issues in wet conditions. Sure the things didn't just fall apart at the first sign of rain, but they wore out much faster than leather armor and did have issues in wet conditions for older armor. They also weighed a lot more for similar levels of protection compared to leather armor or metal armors and also generally only covered the torso.

Of course they were easier and cheaper to make, which is a big plus when attempting to armor hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

True.

The answer is weaving the paper together like a reed mat. You would cut strips of paper, inscribe each with a rune, then weave them together, ie no glue needed.

You could even make indestructible paper chain mail if you wanted.

I've read two research papers on the subject of paper armor. The Koreans used paper armor for over 1000 years. If they could do it, my diabolist can.

This should clear all speculation of using/creating paper armor using indestructible runes. Read the page 119 of the PF Main (2nd Ed.) book regarding use of indestructible runes on parchment. Long and the short of it is it will not work. I would have copied the applicable text and pasted it but that would have been a copyright violation according to the forum rules.


Creating paper armor using the oriental techniques will work and has been proven effective. I did see the Myth Busters episode on paper armor. It was effective and it was at least "plausible" if not "confirmed".

Justthis Guy wrote:From page 119 of the PF Main Book, 2nd Edition. This should clear all speculation of using/creating paper armor using indestructible runes.

Exactly what does this clear? The point of my comments was that most everything from page 119 is inaccurate. Paper Armor is and was a feasible option and would be amazing when made indestructible.

You can't draw runes on clothing and wear said clothing. Sorry.

pblackcrow wrote:You can't draw runes on clothing and wear said clothing. Sorry.

Why exactly?

barna10 wrote:

Justthis Guy wrote:From page 119 of the PF Main Book, 2nd Edition. This should clear all speculation of using/creating paper armor using indestructible runes.

Exactly what does this clear? The point of my comments was that most everything from page 119 is inaccurate. Paper Armor is and was a feasible option and would be amazing when made indestructible.

It says that that the parchment which has silver rune(s) [the one that make it indestructible] can not be used as armor.

pblackcrow wrote:You can't draw runes on clothing and wear said clothing. Sorry.

And the indestructibility rune(s) Only work on Parchment.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Justthis Guy wrote:From page 119 of the PF Main Book, 2nd Edition. This should clear all speculation of using/creating paper armor using indestructible runes.

Exactly what does this clear? The point of my comments was that most everything from page 119 is inaccurate. Paper Armor is and was a feasible option and would be amazing when made indestructible.

It says that that the parchment which has silver rune(s) [the one that make it indestructible] can not be used as armor.

pblackcrow wrote:You can't draw runes on clothing and wear said clothing. Sorry.

And the indestructibility rune(s) Only work on Parchment.

Yeah, only problem with the book is that it is completely wrong. If you read the book correctly, it says "parchment paper".

From wikipedia - Parchment is a thin material made from calfskin, sheepskin or goatskin, often split. Its most common use was as a material for writing on, for documents, notes, or the pages of a book, codex or manuscript. It is distinct from leather in that parchment is limed but not tanned; therefore, it is very reactive to changes in relative humidity and is not waterproof. The finer qualities of parchment are called vellum.

So parchment IS leather! So parchment armor would really be soft leather armor. Therefore, no reason it can't be made into armor. Thanks drewkitty, for once your criticism proved useful.

So here's what I propose:

Indestructible Parchment Armor (looks like lighter colored leather armor, same construction)
[A.R. 10 versus blunt attacks, A.R. 13 versus piercing or slashing attacks (A.R. 15 for high quality workmanship)]
The armor has no S.D.C. rating since it is indestructible.

The point of the passage is A) to ensure rule lawyer gamers can't just munchkin up indestructible armor B) There is still a vast difference between soft leather and parchment.

Magic doesn't exactly work on solid principals. I think this is one of those where "the Gods" enter in to the picture and make your woven, strapped, what have you ruined parchment become not invulnerable as soon as you attempt to make it in to armor.

Frankly I'd rule as GM that runed parchment is indestructible, but NOT invulnerable. You can slice it, punch holes in it, tear it, etc, but as soon as the damage is done it'll mystically heal itself (it is is invulnerable to heat/flames, but still CONDUCTS heat).

So you can stab a knife right through runed parchment, but as soon as you extract the knife the damage heals almost as quickly as the knife is removed. Tear it in half as as soon as you finish tearing it, itself stick itself back together.

azazel1024 wrote:The point of the passage is A) to ensure rule lawyer gamers can't just munchkin up indestructible armor B) There is still a vast difference between soft leather and parchment.

Magic doesn't exactly work on solid principals. I think this is one of those where "the Gods" enter in to the picture and make your woven, strapped, what have you ruined parchment become not invulnerable as soon as you attempt to make it in to armor.

Frankly I'd rule as GM that runed parchment is indestructible, but NOT invulnerable. You can slice it, punch holes in it, tear it, etc, but as soon as the damage is done it'll mystically heal itself (it is is invulnerable to heat/flames, but still CONDUCTS heat).

So you can stab a knife right through runed parchment, but as soon as you extract the knife the damage heals almost as quickly as the knife is removed. Tear it in half as as soon as you finish tearing it, itself stick itself back together.

Somebody has watched the movie "Warlock" before

barna10 wrote:So here's what I propose:

Indestructible Parchment Armor (looks like lighter colored leather armor, same construction)
[A.R. 10 versus blunt attacks, A.R. 13 versus piercing or slashing attacks (A.R. 15 for high quality workmanship)]
The armor has no S.D.C. rating since it is indestructible.

Parchment, if made indestructible by said silver runes would at much like a single layer of Carbon nano tube cloth. it would stop things from poking through, but it would not stop the blunt/hitting effect from getting through. Thus, your "Parchment armor" would keep your char from getting cut. But the char can still be beaten to death.

barna10 wrote:So here's what I propose:

Indestructible Parchment Armor (looks like lighter colored leather armor, same construction)
[A.R. 10 versus blunt attacks, A.R. 13 versus piercing or slashing attacks (A.R. 15 for high quality workmanship)]
The armor has no S.D.C. rating since it is indestructible.

The above proposal is hogwash in my opinion. For previously noted reasons from pg 119 of PFRPG main book.

Barna
here is the thing, you cant make indestructible rune/parchment armor. End of story. Quit trying to be the munchkin brain surgeon to try and make it happen; it wont. Your GM should read up and realize the futility of the endeavor and squash it. If you played in my game I would smashed the idea as soon as it arose, and if you persisted with demands to do so would penalize you exp points; but that's just me.
Try to pursue the idea of oriental style paper armor with out the silver runes.

Oh I'd allow it as the GM. I'd just have the first arrow or sword that came along throughly thrash the charater wearing it offering no meaningful resistance as the character should have tested their "invulnerable" armor earlier and realized that the magic didn't work when they tried to turn the runed parchment in to clothing/armor.

barna10 wrote:From wikipedia - Parchment is a thin material made from calfskin, sheepskin or goatskin, often split. Its most common use was as a material for writing on, for documents, notes, or the pages of a book, codex or manuscript. It is distinct from leather in that parchment is limed but not tanned; therefore, it is very reactive to changes in relative humidity and is not waterproof. The finer qualities of parchment are called vellum.

So parchment IS leather! So parchment armor would really be soft leather armor. Therefore, no reason it can't be made into armor. Thanks drewkitty, for once your criticism proved useful.

Word vs Intent. The intent is very clear, as they spend an entire paragraph shooting the idea down. As far as the writers are concerned it is clear they do not want indestructible armor in their games. As a GM, I'd disallow this and be clear. Anyone who through a fit about it due to some semantic reason would be summat removed from the game, nor would the armor work (I actually just removed the whole "makes paper indestructible" in the first place, as I felt it was unnecessary, and just made it resist aging factors, you can still burn them, shred them, and eat them, though the latter was added mostly to stop smuggling when I realized you could totally swallow a page with a hidden message and 'retrieve' it later, and just hose it off). If you're the GM, or your GM is game for it, sure go for it, just at least acknowledge that you're going against normal cannon. Not like that's the greatest sin in this game, pretty much everyone does it in some way all the time in Palladium. It's nothing to be ashamed about, just don't try parading around some hair brained scheme and try twisting written intent into canon.

I must bow down to all of your knowledge, and the wisdom provided by the PFRPG main book (which of course, since it's an RPG book, everything in it it MUST be true)

Obviously, no one could ever layer tough material to make cloth armor. Any idea like this would obviously be a ridiculous notion. Hell, I'm even laughing at myself now.

Man, imagine how stupid all those scientists at DuPont are going to feel after I forward them pg 119 of the PFRPG main book! Kevlar has been overruled! Oh wait, I think Kevlar IS allowed (let me get my rulebooks....) But wait, if parchment armor won't work...This reminds me, all those PhD thesis papers about the viability of paper armor need to be thrown out as well...

Hmmm, how does Kevlar armor work exactly? Let me think...I think it's layer upon layer of really tough fabric, but maybe I'm wrong.

Let's see, can Kevlar stop arrows and resist cutting (better than steel)? Wait, maybe me even asking is being "munchkin", or is me thinking that the game writers may have ACTUALLY not done any research before publishing their game the munchkin part?

Or I know, I get it, it works in the real-world, but NOT in fantasy! My bad.

Are most of you actually trying to say that questioning the logic of the rules is munchkin? If so, why not return your brains, I don't think they're being used. I live in a world of logic and so do my characters. The only logical argument against using this stuff for armor presented so far is that magic is fickle and just wouldn't work this way. Arguing that "you can't do that because lord Siembieda wrote that you can't, you cheater!" is just a ridiculous argument that makes the person presenting it look like a (insert derogatory term here)!

barna10 wrote:I must bow down to all of your knowledge, and the wisdom provided by the PFRPG main book (which of course, since it's an RPG book, everything in it it MUST be true)

Wow, I can just feel the sarcasm dripping here... just makes this even funnier

barna10 wrote:Obviously, no one could ever layer tough material to make cloth armor. Any idea like this would obviously be a ridiculous notion. Hell, I'm even laughing at myself now.

Man, imagine how stupid all those scientists at DuPont are going to feel after I forward them pg 119 of the PFRPG main book! Kevlar has been overruled! Oh wait, I think Kevlar IS allowed (let me get my rulebooks....) But wait, if parchment armor won't work...This reminds me, all those PhD thesis papers about the viability of paper armor need to be thrown out as well...

Oh yes, obviously... I can just picture the looks on their smug faces now.

barna10 wrote:Hmmm, how does Kevlar armor work exactly? Let me think...I think it's layer upon layer of really tough fabric, but maybe I'm wrong.

Let's see, can Kevlar stop arrows and resist cutting (better than steel)? Wait, maybe me even asking is being "munchkin", or is me thinking that the game writers may have ACTUALLY not done any research before publishing their game the munchkin part?
Or I know, I get it, it works in the real-world, but NOT in fantasy! My bad.

You're correct to a point... Kevlar is a rather tough fabric, yes but is is made from layers of tough ballistic nylon (non existent in Palladium Fantasy by the way) woven in a mesh pattern that allows it to spread the impact of relatively blunt force trauma, such as that experienced from the impact of a bullet, over a larger area as well as resisting damage from said impact in the form of compressing and spreading out in such a way that the individual layers are not ripped through, hence making it ideal for impact resistance. A couple of minor notes about it though that you're completely off about...
1> A layer of kevlar is actually many times thicker than your average piece of parchment, and still requires a rather high number of layers to be effective with most of your military grade frag vests averaging around 30 or more layers just to be capable of stopping small caliber rounds and shrapnel. The thicker the kevlar (ie the more layers composing the armor) the more effective it is at stopping larger, more damaging rounds and impact levels. This is offset by bulk however. Kevlar is heavy stuff even in its lighter versions. Your average military frag vest comes in at near 10 or more pounds of weight for a layer of protection about a half inch thick. Bottom line, the thickness of Kevlar and the total number of layers comprising the armor is what makes it effective against impacts just as much as its overall toughness.
2> Arrows will usually punch right through Kevlar. Kevlar's primary drawback is it's distinct lack of protection against an armor piercing or slashing attack. the tighter the point of focus of an impact, for example, the pointed tip of an arrowhead vs, the relatively blunt nose of a bullet, the less resistance Kevlar can provide against it because it simply cannot spread the impact out far enough over its surface. Spray a kevlar vest from 50 meters with a .38 caliber hand gun, and most, if not all of the bullets, will be stopped. Fire a bow and arrow at it from the same distance and the arrow will punch straight through to the other side.
3> Kevlar is useless against slashing/stabbing attacks from knives and swords! It won't stop the point of a knife from punching through for the same reasons previously noted, that being a focused point, armor piercing attack. It is also still essentially a heavy cloth and can still be cut like cloth. The thicker types of kevlar will certainly require a bit more hacking to get through considering the relative thickness of the armor, but it WILL get through. This is why most Police issue vests have pocket strategically placed over vital areas. These pockets are used to hold steel or ceramic plates or even patches of good old fashioned chain mail, to add to its effectiveness at slowing down and stopping bullet impacts as well as for the purpose they were made for... knife protection. The point of a knife versus a quarter inch thick steel plate... I think the knife has been stopped... and not by layers of "better than steel" fabric.

barna10 wrote:Are most of you actually trying to say that questioning the logic of the rules is munchkin? If so, why not return your brains, I don't think they're being used. I live in a world of logic and so do my characters. The only logical argument against using this stuff for armor presented so far is that magic is fickle and just wouldn't work this way. Arguing that "you can't do that because lord Siembieda wrote that you can't, you cheater!" is just a ridiculous argument that makes the person presenting it look like a (insert derogatory term here)!

Well I don't know about anybody else, but no I'm not saying that. I'm saying the idea for making a suit of armor out of rune parhment is really rather stupid. Every argument you have is a valid one. Yes, rune parchment is indestructible so weapons can't cut it and arrows can't pierce it. And yes, you could stitch or glue layers of rune parchment together to make a viable suit of the stuff.
BUT...
It will take dozens of layers of rune parchment to make a viable suit of armor, perhaps even hundreds. Why? It's still parchment... very thin very flexible, very incapable of protecting anything behind it from the impact of an attack. The sword may not cut you, but you're sure gonna feel it hit you. Oh, and just a side note on that... it WILL hurt The ONLY counter for that is to layer the parchment thick enough that the impact is effectively nullified to the point that it is acceptable. Simply put, how little do you want to feel the impact? A little bit maybe, just enough to sting a bit? The average thickness of a small town phone book might manage that. My phone book (yes I live in a small town... Alvin TX... Google it) comes in at about 3/4 of an inch thick and has a page count of just under 900. And I just tested this out, no lie... I put it to my chest and had my best friend hit it. I felt a little sting... not a lot, but enough to know I got hit. So... 900 sheets of parchment, all with silver runes and layered together over the one 9x12 inch section of your body and BAM! You're getting a set of viable Rune Parchment armor together! All you need now is enough parchment to similarly cover the rest of your body, varying the actual number of sheets up or down for consideration of particular areas of the body... might want it a bit thicker around the groin and head areas, a little less so around the arms, maybe... wow it seems my initial estimates were WAY off... how about thousands, maybe tens of thousands of sheets of parchment to make a suit of viable Rune Parchment armor. Maybe we could cut those numbers down a bit by making a half suit... Then there's the problem with getting all those reams of parchment assembled into a suit of armor, but I'm sure your eminently superior logic can come up with a viable way of attaching a few dozen indestructible phone books to each other to make your precious Indestructible Rune Parchment Armor.

Good Luck and great gaming!

JuliusCreed wrote:

barna10 wrote:I must bow down to all of your knowledge, and the wisdom provided by the PFRPG main book (which of course, since it's an RPG book, everything in it it MUST be true)

Wow, I can just feel the sarcasm dripping here... just makes this even funnier

Be ready for more...

First, your knowledge of Kevlar is incomplete. the "Kevlar" vests used by police and military are not meant to stop blunt trauma, not at all. It's the steel plates inserted in the pockets that stop the blunt trauma. Kevlar resists the tearing and penetration by absorbing the force and distributing it among the thousands of fibers it contains. It was inspired by chain mail.

Second, the chain mail problem. In Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (1st edition D&D), chain mail was incorrectly presented as being easily penetrated by arrows and other piercing attacks, totally incorrect. Like kevlar, chain mail grabs the piercing weapon (broadhead arrows like were used for hunting or in war, not targeting arrows) and spread the force out among the links (like kevlar). Kevlar fabric is a superior version of chain mail.

I witnessed a kevlar duffle bag being shot by an Uzi. It felt like a normal duffle bag (not heavy, stiff, or in any way similar to the way you have described), and not a single bullet penetrated it.

Now, have you ever heard of cut-resistant gloves? Ever worked at a warehouse? If you have, the gloves were wore to prevent your hands from being sliced to pieces by your box cutter were made from...<gasp>..KEVLAR!

The advantage indestructible parchment would have over kevlar is that it couldn't be penetrated. There would be no blank spot between fibers where the especially pointy weapon could penetrate.

So, why not coat some armor with a layer of parchment? You'd have the rigidity of the armor and the indestructibility of the parchment. Eventually the armor underneath would wear out, but the individual wearing it would be better protected.

Call it munchkin, but I seem to remember reading about some pretty smart people from real analogs of the Fantasy period. Do you really think someone like Da vinci, Aristotle, Pythagoras, or any of the other outright geniuses of our real history would have figured out a way to utilize something like indestructible parchment. Guess they were all "munchkin". Give me a break.

Also, do some research beyond gaming books if you really want to shoot down someones opinions. It'd only take 5 minutes of research to learn how ridiculous the arguments against parchment as a defense tool are, but most of you blindly drink the Palladium kool-aid and shut your brains off. It's really sad.

Oh Barna10 you make me laugh!

I used munchkin from a previous post, and the brain surgeon came directly from page 119. I was not trying to offend.

Ok lets revert back to the cannon and the original premise of making rune/parchment armor. What is the point of having the indestructible super light armor? so you can wade into a thicket of Jotan and lay them all low and walk away unscathed? What fun is that? Why even bother playing if you need never worry about the chance of getting hurt or killed?
"There is a group of 8 Jotan warriors ahead . . . you kill them; here is the experience you get and the treasure you find. "

Why even play is that is the scenario? The establishment of this particular rule is to prevent such an occurrence. If that is how you want to play the game, then I recommend you get a video game and use the cheat codes to make you invulnerable and just play it.

You reasoning is sound as are many of the facts. But I think you are missing the whole idea of this being a game set in a relatively primitive world in regards to technology. Just because you have the knowledge and ability to visualize a "magic paper kevlar" , it is highly doubtful your character does. Did he come from a tailor or weaver background to understand weaving technology? Where would he get the thousands upon thousands of gold to pay the diabolist to create so many strips of runed parchment?
I think you are letting too much 'Barna" into your PC.

consider the reasons behind the cannon ruling on paper armor from a play balance perspective and I hope you can see why it is not allowed.

have fun gaming.

JTG

barna10 wrote:First, your knowledge of Kevlar is incomplete. the "Kevlar" vests used by police and military are not meant to stop blunt trauma, not at all. It's the steel plates inserted in the pockets that stop the blunt trauma. Kevlar resists the tearing and penetration by absorbing the force and distributing it among the thousands of fibers it contains. It was inspired by chain mail.

First, no it was not inspired by chain mail. Kevlar was first made to replace rubber tires during a gas scare. DuPont realized its military applications soon after. Second, no it did not resist cuts very well during it's early iterations, until they started laying the back of vests with ceramics to compesnate for its weakness towards armor piercing rounds and blades. Stiff steel inserts, or any 'hard' armor has never worked well against blunt force weapons. It's why maces became such a popular weapon after the rise of full plate, Hard Armor works well against sharp weapons, while soft armor works well against Blunt weapons. Kevlar is a 'Soft" armor as it diffuses energy, rather than using rigidity and shape to stop and deflect.

barna10 wrote:Second, the chain mail problem. In Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (1st edition D&D), chain mail was incorrectly presented as being easily penetrated by arrows and other piercing attacks, totally incorrect. Like kevlar, chain mail grabs the piercing weapon (broadhead arrows like were used for hunting or in war, not targeting arrows) and spread the force out among the links (like kevlar). Kevlar fabric is a superior version of chain mail.

This has some truth to it than just being unilaterally wrong. Yes, arrows did not just glide right through chain mail without some sort of miracle shot (It did for a while when arrows started getting designed to do it, until chain mail was re-designed with thicker rings to stop it). Getting hit by an arrow could still kill a wearer due to the fact chain mail did vitally nothing to deflect or stop the impact of the arrow, and ruptured organs where not at all unheard of, much less a shattered rib. Getting hit by an arrow with chain mail on was still like getting shot with a vest on, you're on the ground and not feeling super hot, though you're better then having something in your chest.

barna10 wrote:I witnessed a kevlar duffle bag being shot by an Uzi. It felt like a normal duffle bag (not heavy, stiff, or in any way similar to the way you have described), and not a single bullet penetrated it.

Great. Put a cat in that bag and shoot 40 rounds into the bag. See if the cat's still alive. (Also make sure there are no animal rights activists near by) Oh by the way. Kevlar vests are very restrictive in movement and are bloody heavy. Many US flack jackets are 30-40 pounds of gear, I've run around in my brother and a friends when I visited them on base a few times. It's not light, and it's a pain to move until you get used to them. It's like wearing a parka full of playdoh.

barna10 wrote:Now, have you ever heard of cut-resistant gloves? Ever worked at a warehouse? If you have, the gloves were wore to prevent your hands from being sliced to pieces by your box cutter were made from...<gasp>..KEVLAR!

Yes, I do work in a ware house. I still cut the **** out of my fingers. They help a bit less as rubber coated gloves, though they are a bit lighter and more comfortable.

barna10 wrote:The advantage indestructible parchment would have over kevlar is that it couldn't be penetrated. There would be no blank spot between fibers where the especially pointy weapon could penetrate.

You have joints, thus there are blank spots in your armor.

barna10 wrote:So, why not coat some armor with a layer of parchment? You'd have the rigidity of the armor and the indestructibility of the parchment. Eventually the armor underneath would wear out, but the individual wearing it would be better protected.

Because you shatter the game world the second you do this. Wars can no longer be fought with weapons. It would be four guys in a field trying to strangle each other, and a wizard on either side trying to debuff and work around the armor. No adventure could leave home without a suit of the stuff. It's dirt cheap, so there's no reason you can't mass produce it, and it makes you a walking golem and nearly unkillable. Bowmen, Warrior, Knights as classes are instantly nonviable. Have non-direct attack, or the ability to ambush, or go home.

Also as a final word; you trollin' brah?

Cinos wrote:Because you shatter the game world the second you do this. Wars can no longer be fought with weapons. It would be four guys in a field trying to strangle each other, and a wizard on either side trying to debuff and work around the armor. No adventure could leave home without a suit of the stuff. It's dirt cheap, so there's no reason you can't mass produce it, and it makes you a walking golem and nearly unkillable. Bowmen, Warrior, Knights as classes are instantly nonviable. Have non-direct attack, or the ability to ambush, or go home.

Also as a final word; you trollin' brah?

First, I never troll, why waste my time? That said, I'm not going to back down when I think I'm right.

Everyone seems to be missing the layering aspect that could be achieved. For instance, because of the weaknesses in PLate Mail, it was most often worn over a suit of chain mail that was over a leather coat (hence why most people that wore plate road horses and were damn near not able to move under their own power!)

Also, doubting that ancient man would think of this, seriously? Thinking people in a society where this stuff existed wouldn't try and weaponize it is just nuts. All you need to do is study history a tenny-bit to see that man has always and will always try to find a better way to kill someone. One of these ways is armoring up your soldiers. Also, ancient man was HIGHLY intelligent. Most of the greatest minds the world the world has ever seen lived and died long before the industrial age. You don't think that a race of people capable of smelting various metals, creating huge sailing vessels, founding massive empires, and many more great things, couldn't have a few geniuses capable of figuring out a way to utilize indestructible parchment in war?

This wouldn't destroy a game world, unless you let it. It would take a ton of time and money to create even one suit, let alone enough for an Army. Also, as has been pointed out in this thread, there will still be parts of the wearer that are uncovered (hands, joints, face, neck, etc). The wearer would not be invulnerable, just better protected. You might as well say that the invention of the Tank "breaks" your game world, but somehow our world survived the invention of the tank, didn't it? Sure our fantasy people would have to adapt their style of warfare, but they would.

Lastly, yes, the inventors of Kevlar were not inspired by chainmail when they were first inventing kevlar, but it was chainmail that made them think it could be used as armor; it didn't inspire the invention, just the implementation. Sorry, I should have clarified.

Also, everyone is assuming a fantasy world. What about a Diabolist rifted to Rifts Earth. You don't think Atlanatis, New Lazlo, any of the fiefdoms in the Federation of Magic, or any of the many Gods walking the planet wouldn't be able to figure out a way to utilize the stuff for some other use besides writing books.

The fact that no one has is just evidence that the writers have written it into the game material. It doesn't mean it's not possible or not a sound idea.

Barna10, IF your GM allows it; great for you! But as a GM I would not allow anyone to have indestructible armor, PERIOD! Canon or non-canon! However, I would allow a shield to be. But Armor, no.

Barna is missing the obvious flaw of layered "paper" armor.
It is a Flaw so fundamental it renders the entire concept moot.
no matter how indestructible the individual sheets are...
the method with which they are attached together is not indestructible.

Damian Magecraft wrote:Barna is missing the obvious flaw of layered "paper" armor.
It is a Flaw so fundamental it renders the entire concept moot.
no matter how indestructible the individual sheets are...
the method with which they are attached together is not indestructible.

How am I missing this obvious flaw? What holds "normal" armor together? Is whatever that holds the other forms of armor together invulnerable? Since the bindings of other armor is not indestructible, does there need to be a passage added to the PFRPG main book that says other forms of armor are also not allowed?

I already mentioned weaving the parchment into a suit. There would be no bindings. What? I actually already accounted for the bindings? Man, someone must have missed that.....

barna10 wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Barna is missing the obvious flaw of layered "paper" armor.
It is a Flaw so fundamental it renders the entire concept moot.
no matter how indestructible the individual sheets are...
the method with which they are attached together is not indestructible.

How am I missing this obvious flaw? What holds "normal" armor together? Is whatever that holds the other forms of armor together invulnerable? Since the bindings of other armor is not indestructible, does there need to be a passage added to the PFRPG main book that says other forms of armor are also not allowed?

I already mentioned weaving the parchment into a suit. There would be no bindings. What? I actually already accounted for the bindings? Man, someone must have missed that.....

truly your intellect is dizzying...

Damian Magecraft wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Barna is missing the obvious flaw of layered "paper" armor.
It is a Flaw so fundamental it renders the entire concept moot.
no matter how indestructible the individual sheets are...
the method with which they are attached together is not indestructible.

How am I missing this obvious flaw? What holds "normal" armor together? Is whatever that holds the other forms of armor together invulnerable? Since the bindings of other armor is not indestructible, does there need to be a passage added to the PFRPG main book that says other forms of armor are also not allowed?

I already mentioned weaving the parchment into a suit. There would be no bindings. What? I actually already accounted for the bindings? Man, someone must have missed that.....

truly your intellect is dizzying...

Apparently so

barna10 wrote:Yeah, only problem with the book is that it is completely wrong. If you read the book correctly, it says "parchment paper".

From wikipedia - Parchment is a thin material made from calfskin, sheepskin or goatskin, often split. Its most common use was as a material for writing on, for documents, notes, or the pages of a book, codex or manuscript. It is distinct from leather in that parchment is limed but not tanned; therefore, it is very reactive to changes in relative humidity and is not waterproof. The finer qualities of parchment are called vellum.

So parchment IS leather! So parchment armor would really be soft leather armor. Therefore, no reason it can't be made into armor. Thanks drewkitty, for once your criticism proved useful.

Perhaps you misread the above passage you pasted from Wikipedia. It states that Parchment is DISTINCT from leather.
To help clear things up, lets define the word 'distinct'...
Distinct (Adjective)
-Readily distinguishable from all others
-Not alike; different in nature or quality
-Constituting a separate entity or part

Now that is out of the way, the quote further specifies that parchment does not undergo the same process as leather. Thus your assertion that 'parchment IS leather' is in fact false.
Extrapolating from that Parchment armour would NOT be soft leather armour.

Additionally, earlier you made note that the text of the book specified Parchment Paper. This is, again, different from what you quoted above. Parchment Paper (alternatively Paper Parchment) is a plant based product created through the passing waterleaf created of plant pulp through acid. This is sometimes also referred to as Vegetable Parchment or Vegetable Paper.
So at this point much of the basis for the circumvention of the written rules, as well as their intent, has been based on incorrect information.

Now setting that aside, let’s look at the creation process of said armour. As mentioned using only one or a few sheets of armour will do almost nothing, for while the sheets won’t break, they won’t really protect from impact either. So you would have to layer, or weave as you proposed, to get thicker armour that would stand up to the blows. This requires many sheets. Further it would have to be done in separate small pieces to maintain movement and flexibility, in similar style to ancient paper armours.
So, at a conservative estimate, for a chestplate only, you are looking at about 600 (assuming 15 sheets thick, and 40 'sections') distinct pieces of parchment paper that need to be marked and energized. Let’s assume that this is a relatively high level Diabolist, anywhere between levels 9 and 14. And lets assume a high PE, 20, it’s a nice round number. The Diabolist can only mark 60 pages per day, so if they do that an nothing else for 10 days straight, then they have enough sheets marked for a chestplate only, and can begin the 'weaving process' (this also is ignoring explicit book instructions that this in fact cannot happen). Repeat for the back piece, and even more if you want to protect the rest of your body. During this, the Diabolist can do nothing else. This means it would take months to produce a single suit of armour. This is not a feasible pursuit for any adventuring diabolist, your party would leave you behind. Now if you want to make one on commission, the price for such would outweigh Rune Swords themselves. Again, making the effort not worthwhile.
And even IF, IF someone, somehow, somewhere, got an armour like this to work. Anti-Magic Cloud, Negate Magic, or any number of other means of attacking the magic of the armour can be used, and then you are just wearing a lot of paper. Paper that was not properly treated in the traditional paper armour methods, and thus not up to the rigors of combat.

To Conclude: Possible? Perhaps. Worthwhile? Not so much.

If you were to read further into the Wikipedia article,you would see that Parchment made from animal skins was indeed used for writing on and for making books (what else would parchment be used for?).

Plant based parchment (also known as grease paper) is used in baking. Thanks for the attempt though. It is called parchment, but it is distinct from the parchment used in the middle ages for writing, give or take a few centuries.

Ah yes, and the definition of "distinct". Yes, parchment and leather are not the same. Also, a car is distinct from a truck, yet they are both automobiles. A square is distinct from a triangle, yet they are both shapes. Do I need to go on?

Lastly, from the wikipedia article: "During the seventh through the ninth centuries, many earlier parchment manuscripts were scrubbed and scoured to be ready for rewriting, and often the earlier writing can still be read. These recycled parchments are called palimpsests. Later, more thorough techniques of scouring the surface irretrievably lost the earlier text."
So much for the parchment falling apart when it gets wet....

Oh yeah, the other thing...REAL PEOPLE IN THE REAL WORLD MADE AND WORE PAPER ARMOR INTO BATTLE FOR OVER A THOUSAND YEARS, and I'm pretty sure their armor wasn't made of indestructible paper!

Someone please give me a logic argument why something that works in the real world (paper armor) will not work in a game world. Who gives a crap if the bindings are not indestructible, neither were the ones in the real world!

barna10 wrote:If you were to read further into the Wikipedia article,you would see that Parchment made from animal skins was indeed used for writing on and for making books (what else would parchment be used for?).

Plant based parchment (also known as grease paper) is used in baking. Thanks for the attempt though. It is called parchment, but it is distinct from the parchment used in the middle ages for writing, give or take a few centuries.

Ah yes, and the definition of "distinct". Yes, parchment and leather are not the same. Also, a car is distinct from a truck, yet they are both automobiles. A square is distinct from a triangle, yet they are both shapes. Do I need to go on?

Lastly, from the wikipedia article: "During the seventh through the ninth centuries, many earlier parchment manuscripts were scrubbed and scoured to be ready for rewriting, and often the earlier writing can still be read. These recycled parchments are called palimpsests. Later, more thorough techniques of scouring the surface irretrievably lost the earlier text."
So much for the parchment falling apart when it gets wet....

I read further into the article, I read the whole article. Parchment, while made from some forms of skin, is still not leather, the treatment process is different. As for Parchment Paper, I am aware of what it is used for, and further the listed dates of its creation process. That makes the point no less valid. You emphasized Parchment Paper over Parchment. Is that what is listed in the Book? Yes. Is such what they meant? Probably not. But if you wish to argue semantics, as you appear to do since you brought up the distinction made between Parchment and Parchment Paper, then I can as well. Regardless, that does not negate the points regarding the actual creation process, and the time and energy needed not being worthwhile.

I am glad you brought up the car and truck example, for it fits perfectly. Again though, you are incorrect. A Truch is not an Automobile. Lets turn to Wikipedia again, since with both are fond of referencing it.

An automobile, autocar, motor car or car is a wheeled motor vehicle used for transporting passengers, which also carries its own engine or motor. Most definitions of the term specify that automobiles are designed to run primarily on roads, to have seating for one to eight people, to typically have four wheels, and to be constructed principally for the transport of people rather than goods

I have underlined the most relevant text.
Since a Truck is constructed principally for the transport of goods rather than people it is not in fact an automobile. Just like Parchment isnt Leather.
Your example of a Square and Triangle is absurd. A desk is a shape. The human body is a shape. Yet no one would say that because the human body is a shape that it is the same as a square.

As for your last point, I never made reference to parchment getting wet, so I am uncertain as to the purpose of this comment, other then to perhaps assume you didnt actually read the entirety of my prior post.

barna10 wrote:Oh yeah, the other thing...REAL PEOPLE IN THE REAL WORLD MADE AND WORE PAPER ARMOR INTO BATTLE FOR OVER A THOUSAND YEARS, and I'm pretty sure their armor wasn't made of indestructible paper!

Someone please give me a logic argument why something that works in the real world (paper armor) will not work in a game world. Who gives a crap if the bindings are not indestructible, neither were the ones in the real world!

Yes they did, but also in the real world there is no magic.
As to why it cannot work, again, lets look at the creation process of said armour. As mentioned using only one or a few sheets of armour will do almost nothing, for while the sheets won’t break, they won’t really protect from impact either. So you would have to layer, or weave as you proposed, to get thicker armour that would stand up to the blows. This requires many sheets. Further it would have to be done in separate small pieces to maintain movement and flexibility, in similar style to ancient paper armours.
So, at a conservative estimate, for a chestplate only, you are looking at about 600 (assuming 15 sheets thick, and 40 'sections') distinct pieces of parchment paper that need to be marked and energized. Let’s assume that this is a relatively high level Diabolist, anywhere between levels 9 and 14. And lets assume a high PE, 20, it’s a nice round number. The Diabolist can only mark 60 pages per day, so if they do that an nothing else for 10 days straight, then they have enough sheets marked for a chestplate only, and can begin the 'weaving process' (this also is ignoring explicit book instructions that this in fact cannot happen). Repeat for the back piece, and even more if you want to protect the rest of your body. During this, the Diabolist can do nothing else. This means it would take months to produce a single suit of armour. This is not a feasible pursuit for any adventuring diabolist, your party would leave you behind. Now if you want to make one on commission, the price for such would outweigh Rune Swords themselves. Again, making the effort not worthwhile.
And even IF, IF someone, somehow, somewhere, got an armour like this to work. Anti-Magic Cloud, Negate Magic, or any number of other means of attacking the magic of the armour can be used, and then you are just wearing a lot of paper. Paper that was not properly treated in the traditional paper armour methods, and thus not up to the rigors of combat.

In conclusion while it may be possible in theory to create the armour, it is not practical to do so in game.

Just a few points,

Paper armor was made out of plant fibers. Not parchment paper, which does not behave like paper made out of plant fiber.

The smallest each piece can be is one inch.

No one is saying you cannot make paper armor, you just cant make it indestructible. I know, I know if people back then could do it why not us? Let me ask you one question. Did they make the armor out of magical paper when they made it?

So, as a gm I would never allow indestructible paper armor in my game. Regular paper armor in my game sure.

So even if it worked, it just wouldn't provide very good protection. Even layered over normal armor. Sure you might not be able to penetrate it, but that doesn't stop the steel armor underneath from being deformed, even if the indestructible parchment isn't damaged.

As mentioned earlier, maces became popular for a reason. You ring a guys head with a mace once or twice and they are likely to be unconcious on the ground. Crack their arm really hard a few times and you are likely to break their arm or shoulder under the armor.

Yeah armor was heavy, but knights mostly went on horse back because it made them more mobile than an infantry soldier. That plus 250lbs of rider and armor + 1,000lbs of warhorse and 80lbs of barding with a 16ft wooden pole with a 1ft long steel spike on the end of it charging at 30 miles per hour is about the scariest thing that side of the industrial revolution.

Yes armor was fatiguing, but mostly it was only a serious issue in really hot weather. It is more tiring than being unarmored, but good plate armor was lighter than heavy chain mail for the same protection. A good set of plate armor INCLUDING the quilting under the armor to provide blunt protection (the bit that it did) and protection against chaffing weighed somewhere in the area of 50-60lbs. That isn't significantly heavier than modern combat vests with SAPI plates inserted, but is distributed across more of the body, and the joints were made so as not to restrict movement much.

I'll repeat, yes you are more burdened than without armor, it is also hotter and with visor down your vision is more restricted. However, if you've ever watched a modern reenactor wearing full plate armor they are quite capable of running, doing rolls, cartwheels, etc in full plate armor.

A super thin indestructible layer over the armor will certainly help protect against penetrating attacks, like a temple sword, bodkin arrom, a straight thrust from a long sword, etc (though will possibly knock you back/on your butt and sting)...but it will provide no protecting against blunt force trauma which will still deform the plates, shock your system, bruise you, etc.

Now moving beyond that, the book specifically says you cannot make it in to armor.

End of story. The Gods intervene and smack your diabolist/armor maker in their butt with a lighting bolt and do worse when they try it again, however you want to portray it. Add it in your game if you want, but the book specifically says you cannot make runed indestructible paper/parchment in to armor.

azazel1024 wrote:So even if it worked, it just wouldn't provide very good protection. Even layered over normal armor. Sure you might not be able to penetrate it, but that doesn't stop the steel armor underneath from being deformed, even if the indestructible parchment isn't damaged.


A super thin indestructible layer over the armor will certainly help protect against penetrating attacks, like a temple sword, bodkin arrom, a straight thrust from a long sword, etc (though will possibly knock you back/on your butt and sting)...but it will provide no protecting against blunt force trauma which will still deform the plates, shock your system, bruise you, etc.

Now moving beyond that, the book specifically says you cannot make it in to armor.

End of story. The Gods intervene and smack your diabolist/armor maker in their butt with a lighting bolt and do worse when they try it again, however you want to portray it. Add it in your game if you want, but the book specifically says you cannot make runed indestructible paper/parchment in to armor.

Two things.

First, several people with Ph. D.s have done feasibility studies showing the viability of paper armor. Argue with them if you want.

Secondly, just because the book says you can't is no argument. The PFRPG main book states that P.P. bonuses ARE added to modern weapon attack rolls (ie Firearms), while most other books say they are not added. My point? The "gods" make mistakes, including not doing their research before stating something is impossible that any one that has studied even teeny tiny bit of Asian history would tell you is not only possible, but what was used for over 1000 years on the battle field.

Also, yes, we don't have magic, but that again is no argument to support paper armor working in the real world but not in the fantasy world. It just means it would be BETTER in the fantasy world because there is magic!

Seriously, does anyone have a real argument as to why you can't do this? I'm tired of hearing that the book says you can't. The book makes no sense and was obviously written in a vacuum where the writers were ignorant of real-world contemporary tech, but it's not really their fault. Most of the western research into the subject has been conducted in the last 10 years.

Besides, saying I can't make armor out of it really means nothing. What if the PC straps books to himself, or builds a fortress of books, etc? Again, humans are ingenious. If I can't sit here and theorize about it, so would a bunch of Diabolists that can actually make the stuff.

Look at real-world examples:

At the turn of the century, people thought if you traveled over 15 mph in a car, you'd die.

People used to say it would be impossible to sail across the ocean, fly to the Moon, or travel to the bottom of the sea.

Innovation and invention come from people thinking about things differently than everyone else. In this instance, one or two diabolists could revolutionize the use of indestructible paper.

Also, don't discount a diabolist in Rifts being able to use this stuff by combining it with modern materials and manufacturing techniques.

Lastly, read above before you say "but the book says no...". Be constructive or go away.