What if a MDC being makes a golem?

[Giant2005]

D) Other, please explain.

6 MD cost. Don't think I need to explain that decision.

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.

Yes unless their MDC is from a supernatural source.

[flatline]

I ignore the SDC cost even for SDC characters. If a mage wants to spend the time and resources to build an army of golems, I see no reason to limit him with a petty SDC cost.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

I ignore the SDC cost even for SDC characters. If a mage wants to spend the time and resources to build an army of golems, I see no reason to limit him with a petty SDC cost.

--flatline

I agree with this.
When there are spells in the game like the Line Maker spell in South America two that can do the same thing without any resource investment, it makes the permanent cost seem a little extreme.
Hell, that Line Maker version can have you building a new soldier every 45 seconds - if you dedicate 16 hours a day to building them, you could make 8960 a week...

[Grell]

As stated above, my ruling would also be 6 M.D.C. point-for-point.

[TechnoGothic]

I ignore the SDC cost even for SDC characters. If a mage wants to spend the time and resources to build an army of golems, I see no reason to limit him with a petty SDC cost.

--flatline

I agree with this.
When there are spells in the game like the Line Maker spell in South America two that can do the same thing without any resource investment, it makes the permanent cost seem a little extreme.
Hell, that Line Maker version can have you building a new soldier every 45 seconds - if you dedicate 16 hours a day to building them, you could make 8960 a week...

yeppers... i agree.

It depends on which version your using. The Classic Spell (6 sdc/mdc) or the Line Maker (no cost). I would learn the Line Maker method myself. Build an Army !! The Golden Army Rises !!

[Balabanto]

[/quote]

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.[/quote]
Yes unless their MDC is from a supernatural source.[/quote]

Absolutely not. SDC and MD totals are separate, unless something happens during character creation (Being a Tattooed Man) that radically changes the way the character exists. If you get +10 SDC from a physical skill, it's meaningless if you're a mega-damage creature.

You may ask "Why?" Why am I such a hardass when it comes to this when I'm kinda liberal on a bunch of other things?

Because I WANT people to play SDC characters and creatures and not feel like they got a chainsword in the butt from the GM.

There's a very small number of characters in the game with Body Hardening Techniques who can convert their SDC into MD for a PPE cost. This ability is supposed to be rare. So why would anyone allow free SDC to MD conversions when it requires a special ability to do so?

These are all GREAT reasons not to allow what you're suggesting.

[Nightmask]

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.[/quote]
Yes unless their MDC is from a supernatural source.[/quote]

Absolutely not. SDC and MD totals are separate, unless something happens during character creation (Being a Tattooed Man) that radically changes the way the character exists. If you get +10 SDC from a physical skill, it's meaningless if you're a mega-damage creature.

You may ask "Why?" Why am I such a hardass when it comes to this when I'm kinda liberal on a bunch of other things?

Because I WANT people to play SDC characters and creatures and not feel like they got a chainsword in the butt from the GM.

There's a very small number of characters in the game with Body Hardening Techniques who can convert their SDC into MD for a PPE cost. This ability is supposed to be rare. So why would anyone allow free SDC to MD conversions when it requires a special ability to do so?

These are all GREAT reasons not to allow what you're suggesting.[/quote]

Except when you look in the books and they point to MDC beings they note that they do get the SDC bonus as an MDC bonus. The ability to temporarily become MDC when you're normally SDC is also quite unrelated to whether or not an MDC being gets the SDC bonus from physical skills as MDC.

Also where exactly do you get the idea that its a screw-over for the SDC characters if the bonuses apply equally to scale between SDC and MDC beings? The SDC character with maxed bonuses for SDC from Physical skills is still going to likely end up dead from the same MD shot as one who hasn't got any, and the MDC creature being a bit tougher because it worked out and harder to kill is completely reasonable and logical.

[Killer Cyborg]

D) Other, please explain.

6 MD cost. Don't think I need to explain that decision.

Yup.

[dragonfett]

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.

Yes unless their MDC is from a supernatural source.[/quote]

Absolutely not. SDC and MD totals are separate, unless something happens during character creation (Being a Tattooed Man) that radically changes the way the character exists. If you get +10 SDC from a physical skill, it's meaningless if you're a mega-damage creature.

You may ask "Why?" Why am I such a hardass when it comes to this when I'm kinda liberal on a bunch of other things?

Because I WANT people to play SDC characters and creatures and not feel like they got a chainsword in the butt from the GM.

There's a very small number of characters in the game with Body Hardening Techniques who can convert their SDC into MD for a PPE cost. This ability is supposed to be rare. So why would anyone allow free SDC to MD conversions when it requires a special ability to do so?

These are all GREAT reasons not to allow what you're suggesting.[/quote]

Except when you look in the books and they point to MDC beings they note that they do get the SDC bonus as an MDC bonus. The ability to temporarily become MDC when you're normally SDC is also quite unrelated to whether or not an MDC being gets the SDC bonus from physical skills as MDC.

Also where exactly do you get the idea that its a screw-over for the SDC characters if the bonuses apply equally to scale between SDC and MDC beings? The SDC character with maxed bonuses for SDC from Physical skills is still going to likely end up dead from the same MD shot as one who hasn't got any, and the MDC creature being a bit tougher because it worked out and harder to kill is completely reasonable and logical.[/quote]

Do you have a book and page reference?

[Colt47]

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.

Yes unless their MDC is from a supernatural source.

Absolutely not. SDC and MD totals are separate, unless something happens during character creation (Being a Tattooed Man) that radically changes the way the character exists. If you get +10 SDC from a physical skill, it's meaningless if you're a mega-damage creature.

You may ask "Why?" Why am I such a hardass when it comes to this when I'm kinda liberal on a bunch of other things?

Because I WANT people to play SDC characters and creatures and not feel like they got a chainsword in the butt from the GM.

There's a very small number of characters in the game with Body Hardening Techniques who can convert their SDC into MD for a PPE cost. This ability is supposed to be rare. So why would anyone allow free SDC to MD conversions when it requires a special ability to do so?

These are all GREAT reasons not to allow what you're suggesting.

Except when you look in the books and they point to MDC beings they note that they do get the SDC bonus as an MDC bonus. The ability to temporarily become MDC when you're normally SDC is also quite unrelated to whether or not an MDC being gets the SDC bonus from physical skills as MDC.

Also where exactly do you get the idea that its a screw-over for the SDC characters if the bonuses apply equally to scale between SDC and MDC beings? The SDC character with maxed bonuses for SDC from Physical skills is still going to likely end up dead from the same MD shot as one who hasn't got any, and the MDC creature being a bit tougher because it worked out and harder to kill is completely reasonable and logical.

Do you have a book and page reference?

I think the only case where the SDC actually DOES become MDC is if the character trained first as an SDC being and was then transformed into an MDC being, such as a sea titan youngster who loves physical activity and hits the age where the sea titan blood activates.

Edit, also think the quote system is failing.

[Athos]

One of my players is playing a Dewtani spell caster and while I was reading through some spells something occurred to me. What if a minor MDC being created a golem, how would you deal with the sdc cost?

The creation of a Golem costs the creator 6 sdc.
If the spellcaster were MDC would you

A) Ignore the cost
B) Charge the MDC being 1 MDC
C) Keep track of sdc spent on all such things and charge the MDC once the total sdc reached 100
D) Other, please explain.

I would charge the MDC caster 6 MDC.

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.

I think by the rules, the answer is no. But, in my games, I generally allow it.

[dragonfett]

I think that the quote system is glitchy as well.

[The Beast]

Edit, also think the quote system is failing.

Only because people aren't hitting the preview button and proofreading themselves before hitting the submit button. I guess they're trying to become writers for PB...

[Anthar]

I allow them to avoid the sacrifice of SDC, but they have to expend twice as much PPE to cast the magic.

[dragonfett]

Edit, also think the quote system is failing.

Only because people aren't hitting the preview button and proofreading themselves before hitting the submit button. I guess they're trying to become writers for PB...

I never did that before because of the fact that it's always worked for me with out having to preview it. And while I make no illusions to the fact that I never make grammatical errors, I always try to weed them out as I type and know that re-reading my post by previewing it will almost never reveal any mistakes that I may make and therefore is a wasted effort.

[Athos]

Edit, also think the quote system is failing.

Only because people aren't hitting the preview button and proofreading themselves before hitting the submit button. I guess they're trying to become writers for PB...

OUCH !!!

Do you really think the writing is that bad? Why play the game then?

[13eowulf]

I think the best was of doing this is having a Techo Wizard create a Ley Line powered factory that puts golems together on an automated production line. The mage running teh factory has to put a vial of his own blood into the machine to establish control, however the SDC is taken from victims who themselves are 'plugged in' and continuously drained of SDC (and HP) until they are dead.

Now, waste not want not, the bodies are then moved to a secondary automated TW ley line factory that created Zombies or Mummies........

[The Beast]

Edit, also think the quote system is failing.

Only because people aren't hitting the preview button and proofreading themselves before hitting the submit button. I guess they're trying to become writers for PB...

OUCH !!!

Do you really think the writing is that bad? Why play the game then?

The writing itself, no, that's not bad. What's bad is the poor editing PB does.

And technically I kinda failed as well since I meant to put a at the end of that to let everyone know I wasn't that serious about it.

[Mack]

D) Other, please explain.

6 MD cost. Don't think I need to explain that decision.

Yup.

Agreed.

And the quote system is fine. There's an error in Balabanto's first post, which cascaded through everyone who quoted him.

[Armorlord]

D) Other, please explain.

6 MD cost. Don't think I need to explain that decision.

On a related subject, when you have a player in your games play a MDC being like a Dewtani or Grackletooth and they take physical skills that increase sdc (weight lifting, boxing, etc) do you allow them to get the same amount of MDC as they would get sdc? +10 MDC instead of sdc from weight lifting for example.

Yes unless their MDC is from a supernatural source.

This would be my thinking as well.

[cornholioprime]

I ignore the SDC cost even for SDC characters. If a mage wants to spend the time and resources to build an army of golems, I see no reason to limit him with a petty SDC cost.

--flatline

The SDC cost is not "petty."

It is put there PRECISELY to stop individual characters from creating Golem Armies of their own (in potentially unlimited numbers).

For most SDC characters, especially those in the magic arts, the SDC cost is actually quite "hellish" .....and that's the whole point of it.

It actually makes Golems more "fun/challenging/unique" to have, in my opinion, kinda like the cost you'll suffer if your familiar dies.

[Giant2005]

Can a character that doesn't have blood substitute something else for the blood in the ritual to create a Golem or are they out of luck?

[cornholioprime]

Can a character that doesn't have blood substitute something else for the blood in the ritual to create a Golem or are they out of luck?

There are other forms of Magic that bloodless creatures are immune to...so I'd say that the "logic" would work conversely, and that if a creature doesn't have blood, then it can't perform/cast any ritual/spell that requires it.

[flatline]

I ignore the SDC cost even for SDC characters. If a mage wants to spend the time and resources to build an army of golems, I see no reason to limit him with a petty SDC cost.

--flatline

The SDC cost is not "petty."

It is put there PRECISELY to stop individual characters from creating Golem Armies of their own (in potentially unlimited numbers).

For most SDC characters, especially those in the magic arts, the SDC cost is actually quite "hellish" .....and that's the whole point of it.

It actually makes Golems more "fun/challenging/unique" to have, in my opinion, kinda like the cost you'll suffer if your familiar dies.

How much time and resources do you think it takes to create the golem body? Now multiply that times 1000 to just have enough golem bodies to make an army of 1000 golems. If the players go through the trouble to get the materials, build the bodies, and animate them, why would you deny them the fruits of their labors?

The SDC cost is a petty attempt to address a perceived abuse that isn't abusive.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

How much time and resources do you think it takes to create the golem body? Now multiply that times 1000 to just have enough golem bodies to make an army of 1000 golems. If the players go through the trouble to get the materials, build the bodies, and animate them, why would you deny them the fruits of their labors?

The SDC cost is a petty attempt to address a perceived abuse that isn't abusive.

--flatline

Materials:
-animal blood
-clay
-2 onyx gems worth 1,000 each.
-1 iron heart

The only materials that have any significant cost would be the gems and the iron heart.
The gems combined only cost 2,000 credits.
The iron heart might be tricky if you have to forge it yourself, but only really the first time. After that, you'd just need a proper mold and a laser torch or something to melt the iron down to pour into the mold.
Less if you use some kind of mass-production, or even a relatively cheap TW device, to make the hearts.
Of course, if you stick a diamond in the heart, that's CR 8000 more, bringing the cost up to a bit over CR 10,000 total.

Time:
How long does it take to make a rough humanoid form out of clay?
Not very long, if you have the clay. A few hours, maybe, tops.
How long does it take to make a rough humanoid form out of iron?
Like the heart, it could take a long time if you're doing the job yourself, the first time. After that, you just melt iron and pour it into a mold. Or buy mass-produced statues, or make a TW machine to mass-produce them.
How long does it take to perform the ritual? 1d4x10+15 minutes, for an average of 40 minutes.
So, really, after the prototype, we're probably looking at an hour or two.
Hell, let's just say 5 hours.

Without the SDC restrictions, and with a decent budget, you could crank out maybe 2 golems per day without a hell of a lot of effort, if you focused your attention on it.
Do that for a year, and you have 700+ semi-indestructable, mega-damage minions.

I can see why the restriction is in place.

[Hystrix]

How much time and resources do you think it takes to create the golem body? Now multiply that times 1000 to just have enough golem bodies to make an army of 1000 golems. If the players go through the trouble to get the materials, build the bodies, and animate them, why would you deny them the fruits of their labors?

The SDC cost is a petty attempt to address a perceived abuse that isn't abusive.

--flatline

Yeah, but it would become so. All the other characters are limited by thier own powers/ resources, but the mages can make an effectivly unlimited amount of golem like creatures. That isn't exactly fair when dealing with the rest of the party, and becomes simply a "one-up-manship" of who can create more in a short amount of time.

It becomes as bad as what people complain about regaurding the CS and skelbots. The difference is instead of a nation of millions pooling thier resources and creating an army, you have one dude doing the same thing all by himself. Or, even worse, you have a army thousands of mages (like at Tolkeen or FoM) creating millions upon millions of golems with no end in sight.

Now I can see why an NPC nation could create such an army (or at least a fraction of such an army), but an individual PC should NEVER have that much power. I think the SDC cost makes perfect sense...

EDIT - Plus what Killer said. I like answer better anyway...

[Mercdog]

I've always seen the SDC cost as a requirement to bond the Golem to it's master. No sacrifice of blood to me = No bond. And no bond to the Golem = No control over the golem. And a Golem with no controller is a golem on a rampage (at least in my games).

That said, I do allow people to commision a wizard to create a golem, and then provide the SDC/MDC/Blood cost themselves. This makes the Golem the client's servant, not the wizard's.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Though I do like golems in sdc settings, the canon nerfing of the golem for MD enviroments leaves a whole in my soul. If you keep the golems the way they are, you are better off getting a burgler alarm. The PPE cost is way to high for the MDC. Summoning a demon or shadow beast would be much better.

[flatline]

I believe the value is in the fact that if the golem is destroyed, it is likely to completely regenerate unless it's destroyer knows what to do to permanently destroy it.

--flatline

[Shadow Wyrm]

I believe the value is in the fact that if the golem is destroyed, it is likely to completely regenerate unless it's destroyer knows what to do to permanently destroy it.

--flatline

35 or 80 MDC isn't alot of damage to destroy something. If complete destoyed they regenerate with-in 24hr., far to long. If you give them the SDC numbers I would say they would be worth it. The MDC value that golems have are just too low to be effective IMO.

Also, in canon, the Tolkenites used mass formations of golems. It was an ineffective tactic. They waested time and resorses creating golems,

[Killer Cyborg]

I believe the value is in the fact that if the golem is destroyed, it is likely to completely regenerate unless it's destroyer knows what to do to permanently destroy it.

--flatline

35 or 80 MDC isn't alot of damage to destroy something.

It's the equivalent of a suit of heavy MDC armor. That's not bad.
Of course, you can also use the diamond heart to double the MDC, for 70 or 160 MDC total.
And, of course, you can always give your golem addition armor and/or other gear.

Also, in canon, the Tolkenites used mass formations of golems. It was an ineffective tactic. They waested time and resorses creating golems,

Ineffective against the Coalition.
If they had instead decided to take over smaller kingdoms and territories, they could have done so.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Golems, no int., strike parry dodge, no skills, speed of 8. My niece in a wheelchair could out manuver it on a sanddune.

[Killer Cyborg]

Golems, no int., strike parry dodge, no skills, speed of 8. My niece in a wheelchair could out manuver it on a sanddune.

Maybe, if she made her roll against Horror Factor 16, and wasn't instead frozen in fear long enough for it to catch her.

Golems have an IQ of 6, which means that yes, they are stupid, but they're still smart enough to learn simple tasks and to generally function. They're smarter than animals, and animals generally take care of themselves pretty well.
(As a side note, as of RUE, technically their low IQ qualifies them for 1d4+2 secondary skills to start, just to get rules-lawyery. )

Their speed is only 8, and yes, that is pretty slow in Rifts.
But that's still 10 yards (30') per attack, which isn't exactly "wheelchair on sand" slow.
If your mage needs to, though, he can always cast another spell to help his golem out, like Superhuman Speed, or Fly As The Eagle.
Even without buffing, though, one thing to keep in mind is that golems never get tired.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Just to answer the question posed for the thread, yes I would impose the sdc/mdc cost to a MDC being. It would be one MD, MDC is a combination of hit points and sdc.

[Mack]

I believe the value is in the fact that if the golem is destroyed, it is likely to completely regenerate unless it's destroyer knows what to do to permanently destroy it.

--flatline

35 or 80 MDC isn't alot of damage to destroy something.

It's the equivalent of a suit of heavy MDC armor. That's not bad.
Of course, you can also use the diamond heart to double the MDC, for 70 or 160 MDC total.
And, of course, you can always give your golem addition armor and/or other gear.

And you can double that MDC again, given the number of "half damage" resistances they have. It's effectively 140 and 320 MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

I believe the value is in the fact that if the golem is destroyed, it is likely to completely regenerate unless it's destroyer knows what to do to permanently destroy it.

--flatline

35 or 80 MDC isn't alot of damage to destroy something.

It's the equivalent of a suit of heavy MDC armor. That's not bad.
Of course, you can also use the diamond heart to double the MDC, for 70 or 160 MDC total.
And, of course, you can always give your golem addition armor and/or other gear.

And you can double that MDC again, given the number of "half damage" resistances they have. It's effectively 140 and 320 MDC.

Quite true- I forgot that part.

[Hystrix]

I believe the value is in the fact that if the golem is destroyed, it is likely to completely regenerate unless it's destroyer knows what to do to permanently destroy it.

--flatline

35 or 80 MDC isn't alot of damage to destroy something.

It's the equivalent of a suit of heavy MDC armor. That's not bad.
Of course, you can also use the diamond heart to double the MDC, for 70 or 160 MDC total.
And, of course, you can always give your golem addition armor and/or other gear.

And you can double that MDC again, given the number of "half damage" resistances they have. It's effectively 140 and 320 MDC.

Yeah. 320 MDC is the equivilent of the MDC protection of power armor.

Also a speed of 8 means a golem can move about 130 miles a day. Considering they don't tire and can work/fight 24/7, a golem sounds pretty dog-gone effective.

[flatline]

Yeah. 320 MDC is the equivilent of the MDC protection of power armor.

Also a speed of 8 means a golem can move about 130 miles a day. Considering they don't tire and can work/fight 24/7, a golem sounds pretty dog-gone effective.

I've used golems in combat before even against far more capable foes (power armor and such). The golems didn't do much (any?) damage, but they sure drew a lot of enemy fire that might otherwise have targeted me or one of the other party members. That, to me, makes having a golem around a good thing.

That, and it's handy to have someone around to carry the heavy stuff and who reach things on the top shelf

--flatline

[Hystrix]

Yeah. 320 MDC is the equivilent of the MDC protection of power armor.

Also a speed of 8 means a golem can move about 130 miles a day. Considering they don't tire and can work/fight 24/7, a golem sounds pretty dog-gone effective.

I've used golems in combat before even against far more capable foes (power armor and such). The golems didn't do much (any?) damage, but they sure drew a lot of enemy fire that might otherwise have targeted me or one of the other party members. That, to me, makes having a golem around a good thing.

That, and it's handy to have someone around to carry the heavy stuff and who reach things on the top shelf

--flatline

Plus, who says a force has to be entirly golems? Why not a mix of 50% golems (Iron and Clay), 25% animated dead, 10% elementals, 10% iron juggenauts, and 5% controlling mages. That make 85% of the unit expendable (elementals are expendable depending on who you ask) and 15% actuall living combatants. The Golems and animated dead are the cannon fodder and frontline assult. The Elementals and Juggernauts are the clean up, and the mages oversee it all...

[Akashic Soldier]

As Create Golem appears in my Book of Magic (for Rifts), the spell no longer has any SDC cost. It requires 2 onixes and may be optionally enhanced by a diamond heart. No other cost is listed here other than the P.P.E. cost.

[Giant2005]

As Create Golem appears in my Book of Magic (for Rifts), the spell no longer has any SDC cost. It requires 2 onixes and may be optionally enhanced by a diamond heart. No other cost is listed here other than the P.P.E. cost.

Strange.
My BoM includes the SDC cost.

[Mack]

As Create Golem appears in my Book of Magic (for Rifts), the spell no longer has any SDC cost. It requires 2 onixes and may be optionally enhanced by a diamond heart. No other cost is listed here other than the P.P.E. cost.

Humor me and check the end of the first paragraph.