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This time, I figured I'll do two books in one thread, given that the Sourcebook is both small and really just an extension of the main book (hence it being called "Sourcebook").

Update: Ah, what the hell. I've got Three Galaxies, Fleets of the Three Galaxies, and Dimensional Outbreak too, I may as well pass Judgement (such as it is) on the whole setting at once.

So first, I'd like to get a few universal notes and gripes off my chest:

Naturally, ranges on spacecraft are too short. Nothing mounted on a fighter or larger should be less than a mile. I know the movies and games usually show ships fighting at spitting distances, but an RPG can at least fudge that a little, given that this is all in our imaginations. Defenders of these short ranges usually claim that it's more dramatic that way, but other works have shown that a long-range space battle can be cool as well.

Exhibit A: Legend of Galactic Heroes, where ranges are measured in Light-seconds, and fleet numbers run into five digits (in the video linked, a force of 1000 ships is being used as bait, and the fleet admiral was perfectly willing to let them all die just to get their commander killed). That's probably something else that you could work on, but that's for another time...

It's not restricted to spacecraft, though. Most Vehicle-mounted (and some PA-mounted) weapons, especially main guns, should have a range greater than one or two miles. Especially Rail- and GR-guns.

Mini-Missiles. I've said in my previous threads that designs in the game tend to rely on Mini-Missiles a little too much. That goes double when you get to spacecraft. 2 mile ranges just shouldn't cut it for space combat.

Now don't get me wrong, they're all but perfect when they're used for anti-missile systems. But too often they're brought out to be used against fighters and larger spacecraft. That's just a waste of missiles IMO (especially considering that most other Fighter-class weapons exceed the range of mini-missiles). That's what Short, Medium, and Long-range missiles are for.

Also, that whole damage scaling thing rears it's ugly head again...

But I digress. There's hardware to discuss. For preferences' sake, I will be doing this by subject, not book. So when I go through Small Arms, I will look through PW, PWS, and TTG before moving on to Powered Armor, which I will then go through everything before moving on to Vehicles, and so on.

Small Arms

HI-80 Combat Laser Rifle -- Don't get me wrong, this is a fine weapon. But it's also the yardstick by which I measured pretty much every other weapon system in the books by virtue of it being the CAF's standard Infantry weapon. So when I say something is too weak, I'm usually comparing it to the base of a CAF line trooper with one of these babies in his hands. In that right, it may be too powerful.

EP-5 Energy Pulse Pistol/EPR-8 Energy Pulse Rifle -- Nothing really wrong for this, I just wanted to mention that for some reason, I've always imagined this thing firing like the Plasma Rifle from DOOM.

CAF Repeating Rocket Launcher -- I really want to hit Vince Martin for this thing. That big, unbalancing drum magazine is just terrible, especially compared to the WI missile launcher from Rifts Mercenaries. Not just on general principles, but from the angle, it looks like it would get in the way of using the scope!

Psionic Crystal Technology -- I feel that this is kind of underused. There are a number of Physical (Like a TK pulser that can be used for dynamic entries) and maybe even Sensory powers that could be pumped up with this technology (look into it for a future book).

K-HEX Missiles -- Remember when we thought these were the shiz-nite? Oh, that was just me? Not quite as hot anymore since the CWC missile table was adopted.

Draygon Industries Little Storm -- I think the little gun is kinda underpowered (probably should have the same single shot damage as the rifle).

Power Armor and Mecha

Psionic Power Armor -- An okay design, which I suppose works for Noro. The only technical problem I have is that the GR railgun is less powerful than the lighter-looking GR-55AR rifle. Simply switch the damage on the two and there you go. I think a TK power also could've made it more versatile.

Silverhawk Attack Exoskeleton --Holy Hannah this thing is nasty. I wonder if the Multi-rifle couldn't use a little tweaking, though. The Laser is fine as a long-ranged weapon, and while the short-ranged punch of the particle beam is also nice, I believe that the Silverhawk may need some dedicated ship-breaching tools. Maybe replace one of the Six-shooters with a Plasma Torch or Breaching Gel dispenser.

Ground Pounder PA-10 Infantry Power Armor -- Why do this and the Battleram look so much like they may have started out as designs for Triax and the NGR? In any case, this is a solid suit for both frontline and support duties. The mortars and laser are a nice touch. The main gun may be a touch underpowered compared to, you guessed it, the HI-80.

It's getting late, to more to come later.

I updated the first page a bit, as the new title can attest.

Warlord Mk I/Mk II
I like the character that comes from these suits, and no I won't say the Particle Beam gun is underpowered, because in this case I compare it to the Energy Pulse rifle. Though I do think that being larger, the Mk I probably should've had a few more mini-missiles. I do wonder if there is a variant of the Mk II that is modified to fit the Skaa or Monro.


Warlock Combat Arrmor
I liked this armor when I first read it, but in retrospect, I feel it may be a bit of a missed opportunity.

First of all, I hate the helmet. Even when I liked the suit, I hated that thing. The helmet of the standard Warlock Marine armor is so much cooler (which is why I have it as my Avatar). Plus, it looks a little too "Vince Martin".

Technical-wise, The suit is lacking in what I would consider a suitable amount of Magical augmentation (this is comparing it to the stuff in other Rifts, which is admittedly mainly the South America books). Now some of this can be attributed to what Anvil Galaxy said about UWW Techno-Wizardry being Sufficiently Advanced, but at the same time, why do they need to make a lighter flying version if they can just put a flight spell in the sucker? Also, given that Warlocks Marines often work alongside magic-users (whether Space Warlocks, their own Magic Specialists, or other mages, a small P.P.E. battery built into it that the user or a friendly caster can use (maybe make this an optional build) would help them go a long way.

The Optional hand-held weapons are fine, with the exception of the AML-11 missile launcher. By itself (maybe used by non PA-armored troops) it's alright, but taken in the context of a Warlock Marine squad it comes up short. The entire squad as it is already carrying six missiles each, and can fire them faster than this can. The payload is it's only saving grace, and that's really not that much. I would maybe replace it with something heavier, like a Short- or even Medium-range missile launcher.

I also think the Anti-Betrayal system is a little harsh. I would suggest instead causing the armor to lock up and shut down (can't be removed) until released by UWW authorities works much better (after all, they may need to be questioned as to why the "traitor" is trying to use it against them). Then, if they either persist, or someone tries to remove the lock by force or any other means, then it explodes.


Corrupted Power Armor
Now this is more like it (too bad it's EVIL). This, as much as or more than anything I can say here, is an excellent case for the fact that the portrayal of the United Worlds of Warlock really needs an overhaul (any word on that manuscript?). Arguably, the whole Phase World book could probably use a revision, but one thing at a time.

As to the armor itself, it looses some strength and the versatility of the varied weapon systems, but the Force Pike is fairly versatile on it's own. Looks creepy as hell, too.


Enforcer Power Armor
Again, not a fan of the helmet. Funny thing is, Because of this and Forge World, I tend to associate Vince Martin's "standard" mechanical design style with Naruni Enterprises (Or the Kreeghor).

Really I think this thing is just over-armed. Personally, I think the Grenade Launchers need to go. Either that, or replace the Mini-missile launcher with them. The Laser Arm might be a bit overpowered for a Security/Police unit, but I figure that's just Naruni being Naruni.


A-1 Avenger
Concept-wise, this seems to be the Three Galaxies version of the Glitter Boy It's tough and has some cool abilities. The weapons are solid, but nothing really stands out. The design is nice, and doesn't look too Vince Martin (But maybe enough for Naruni to sue about ).

Blood Bane
I can hear Angrar Robotics crying foul all the way from over here. If anything, this sucker is even worse than Angrar's suit. The Weapons are pretty versatile (and nasty to boot), and the Techno-Wizardry is used better here than in the Warlock Armor (it helps that it came later, I suppose).

That's it for the Power Armor (I'm skipping the Necrol and Intruder stuff, but I'll come back to them when I get to the ships). Next, I'm gonna have some fun, giving that what comes up is kinda one of my favorites.

Giant Robots. You dig 'em. I dig 'em. We dig 'em. Chicks dig 'em!

Sorry, couldn't resist . And I get to start off with one of my favorite units in the book.

CAF Battleram Attack Robot (Whoohoo!) -- Honestly, it seems almost uncharacteristically brutal for the CAF, but I love it anyway.

Like the Ground Pounder before it (after, if you wanna get technical), the Battleram resembles a particularly badass-looking Triax robot. Seriously, replace the visor with a Cyclops sensor, and you'll see what I mean. I can only blame Kevin Long for this, but it's all good. It's a big, solid machine that looks like it could tear a spaceship apart with it's bare hands.

...what's that? That's exactly what it does? You don't say! So let's take a look at it's abilities and equipment, and see how well it does that job.

The GR-Rifle is kind of interesting, as the Battleram is one of the few mecha of it's size in the game to carry one. Incedentally, the Battleram is only slightly shorter than the Nu Gundam from Char's Counterattack (which is one of the largest Gundams to be used by a protagonist). It serves well to defend the mecha on it's way to the target... At least, it would if it hadn't been for that somewhat silly "Superman" thing.

The laser... As depicted, it doesn't really serve the Battleram as well as it needs to. Stat-wise, It's fine, but it needs to be an actual turret. That way, it can be used by the Co-pilot independently while the pilot is using the rifle. On the other hand, the way the laser is depicted could have a use for the Battleram's primary function: Move it to the other shoulder and make it a laser or plasma torch with higher and lower damage settings, and maybe a twentieth of the range. When the Battleram gets close to a ship's hull, the torch could burn/melt weaknesses in the hull that and structure that the arms could exploit.

The missiles work out pretty well, too. A few mini-missiles to help with missile attacks, And Medium-range missiles to make interceptors think twice. The Cruise Missile can deliver the final blow to a Shield (preferably right before they hit it, so they can be under it before power can be shifted from another side) The Long-range missiles can serve both anti-shield or anti-fighter duty, whichever is needed. About the only possible complaint is that the mini-missiles could do with an internal reload or two, but I could understand if they needed the space for more hydraulics or servos.

If the Battleram is missing anything, it's a short-range cutting tool or weapon. Maybe a giant vibro-blade, or a version of the Wilks' laser knife/sword (why doesn't the Three Galaxies have any beam swords, now that I think about it?).


Kittani Transformable Robot-Fighter
I feel this to be a bit of a missed opportunity. For the stuff it's gotta do, the Robot-Fighter is awfully underpowered. The Pulse Cannons are a bit on the weak side for main weapons, and it's only ordnance are mini-missiles (there's that problem again). This thing needs some hardpoints, stat! On the other hand, it's an excellent example of how the Splugorth limit the technological development of the Kittani.


Bombard Infantry Robot
First of all... Why the hell does this thing not have a picture? This entire section of ground vehicles is entirely blank, rendering a good chunk of the CAF and Kreeghor ground forces faceless. And that sucks.

The armament is nice, but the shoulder cannons are, again, way too much on the weak side (it's that darn HI-80 again). The Forearm or Leg missile launchers probably could've stood to be Short-Range missiles instead, too. I really like the accordion, though. You really don't want to be in front of this thing if you can't help it.

I like the idea of the head modules, but the laser brings up an interesting conundrum. I say we should give the laser's damage to the Shoulder Cannons, bump up the laser to about 4-5D6x10, then lower the rate of fire.

Ovoid Combat Robot
Man, I do not like this mech. The idea is decent, but the execution just doesn't work for me at all. I think the first thing that gets me in that picture. It's an egg, we get it (I'll save you the Sonic the Hedgehog jokes). The picture should have been with the limbs deployed. As it is, I think maybe this shouldn't have been a robot at all.

In my Rifts' Mercenaries thread, I said that there should have been more Combat Pods like the OMAV, but with different roles? This should have been one of them. Take out the legs (keep the arms if you like), and make this a Contragravity-driven Combat Pod. No other changes needed.


Imperator Assault Robot
Why am I not surprised that this was Kreeghor-shaped? It's a good example of TGE psychology defining their hardware, with the Kreeghor commander lording over his crew. I get the feeling this is as much a terror weapon as it is a military vehicle.

And the guns (Mainly the Axe and Fang) are still too weak.

Next, on to the tanks!

i thought it odd the Kittani space fighter was based on the transforming hovercycle from WB2, and not the actual kittani fighter from the same book.
a three galaxies version of the K-ATV Hover-jet fighter would have made more sense from both a design standpoint and a story one. the K-ATV in WB2 could then be fluffed as a "downgraded" model for general sale, while the more potent spacefighter version stays in the hands of the splugorth.
and it wouldn't take much. starfighter grade contra-grav. increase the armor (the K-ATV was massively under armored even for the time it was printed), upgrade the lasers, and make the wings bigger to let you hang quite a few missiles off them. maybe toss on a forcefield as well.

all the stuff they did to the K-GTRV skimmer, but less headscratchingly odd.

To be fair, the K-ATV was a civilian vehicle, so the low MDC and light weaponry can be excused.

Before I move on to ground vehicles, I want to quote the TV Tropes article about military vehicles in sci-fi:

It is sometimes claimed that the use of militarized spaceships will make planetary forces obsolete. After all, why waste men and vehicles on the ground if you can just blast them from orbit with lasers, missiles, plasma bombs, or huge rocks?

The answer is simple: Because unless you're going for genocide, you will need to be able to hold your new territory after you've blasted the defenders to ashes. If nothing else the invader needs a base to build supplies for his next glorious conquest. And of course he will want some subjects from which to collect the oppressive taxes needed to pay for his mighty fleet. Not to mention mopping up enemies not concentrated enough to warrant turning starship-grade weaponry on, pacifying local populations, and probably defending ground infrastructure or even taking targets that are too close to places you don't want blown up, or that are somehow protected against orbital attacks. (This is also the reason modern countries still have armies in the face of modern air power)

Not to mention the whole thing from Fleets of the Three Galaxies. There. So now we've established why the following vehicles are here, let's get to it:


Phalanx Main Battle Tank
In FotTG, Mr. Campbell makes a fun case with the Golgans about how a race's culture can affect the design of their vehicles. Looking around at the ramifications of the Golgan's weapons, I noticed a few things (like how at "top speed" (you're gonna get an earful on that next section), a Bindas-class cruiser can be right on top of a target from the maximum range of it's guns within a single Melee Round), I realized how much that works for the Wolfen, too. Note the Hunter (Basically a Space Gun), the Packmaster (Heavily armed for a carrier), and of course this tank right here. The notably-aggressive Wolfen seem to have a thing for lots of frontally-mounted guns, quite unlike the Golgans. On that note, the probable confrontation over the Altess Dynasty between the often-Wolfen-armed CAF forces, with weapons primarily designed for pursuit; and the Golgan Republik, with weapons primarily designed for running away, is a very entertaining prospect.

Update: I can't believe I forgot to actually critique the design. Well, given the lack of pictures, I suppose it's kind of difficult. But one thing stands out from the description: The Phalanx can effectively fly pretty high, being a contragravity vehicle. That said, one would think at least the hull-mounted weapons and laser turrets would be designed in a way to fire on enemies below the tank. When you think about it, once you can make your tanks fly, attack helicopters are pretty superfluous.


Maniple IFV
Rather under-armed for a Wolfen vehicle (as the pattern noted above), isn't it? It probably needs one more gun, maybe the Particle Beam Cannon from the Phalanx, which is a good door-knocker for an IFV.


Dark Slayer Main Battle Tank
The Dark Slayer is a pretty solid MBT. Not as powerful as the Phalanx, but under a quarter of the cost. The Kinetic Rockets are cool, and it's a shame nothing else uses them. I bet this thing is probably evil-looking too. Too bad we don't have a picture of it...


Kartuhm-Terek ("Doomsday Machine")
I really like Land Battleships like this. Sure they're great big targets, but they're so cool! It's kind of odd though, that something that uses so much material costs less than three Phalanx tanks. This thing is probably a monster in war, but I can't say much other than that.


Greataxe IFV
Weeaaak.

No, seriously. As something that is supposed to be the only armored vehicle used by the United Worlds of Warlock, it's kind of lacking on both the Armor and Warlock side. Not a single magical augmentation or enchantment (How about some TW shells?), and it's only barely more MDC than the Maniple, a dedicated IFV. Seriously, the UWW needs more Armor or vehicles.

Up next, a small rant, then we go to the spacecraft!

SAMASzero wrote:To be fair, the K-ATV was a civilian vehicle, so the low MDC and light weaponry can be excused.

oh i know, but i just find it funny that the canon nearly-supersonic transforming alien jet aircraft was passed over for a ground hugging transforming alien 'motorcycle' when it came time to build a hyper fast space fighter.. it's kind of like the US airforce deciding the Humvee should be the base chassis for the next air superiority fighter..

and if your rant is what i expect, i have my standard response ready!

Okay, I'm sure we've all heard of the whole "There's no such thing as top speed in space except for the Speed of Light" thing by now. So rather than bring it up again (though I will mention that maybe a flat m/kph/m/s probably would've been a better indicator of speeds than using mach numbers), I'll toss in the free handwave that it's a maximum safe speed/acceleration for the vehicle in question's engine(s), structure, or Inertial Dampers. Accelerating past that point (the speed itself or the time it takes to reach that speed) is bad for the ship's (or pilot's) health for whatever reason, so the engine is set to automatically shut off when it reaches that point. Savvy? Let's move on.

I should also mention that there is one stat that probably should've been added to at least the larger ships (if you wanna play Old-School Dogfighting with the fighters): Going back to Gundam, the official performance stats of many mobile suits give a reading for turn time: how long it takes for the vehicle to turn 180 degrees (this would be pretty important for Golgan ships, as I figured out).


SF-69 Scorpion-Class Light Fighter
CJ Carella, Wayne Breaux, or whoever designed this thing was clearly a fan of G.I. Joe, because from below the Scorpion bears a strong resemblance to the old Joe S.H.A.R.C.. Thankfully, it's only a resemblance (The wing nacelles are longer, and the upper half is different), so no lawsuits . Though to be honest, I wish the top did look more like the SHARC, because I like it better than the one it's got.

The two models give the Shar- er, Scorpion a dual role that I don't think the armament quite lives up to. This is primarily due to, you guessed it, the Mini-missile launchers. As a general-purpose fighter, You'd have to fire 3-4 missiles per launcher to make them a viable alternative to the GR cannon. That means they're not going to last long at all (compared to the 500 bursts of the GR gun), plus their range is less than a tenth of the cannon. For 69B they're alright because they can be used primarily to defend against missiles.

My solution? Replace them with Medium-range missiles for the standard model. This keeps them in the classic long-range role Missiles commonly use, plus they have the power to compete with their own main gun. Sure they'd have probably half the ammuntion (if that), but their shots would count more. If you want to spare that extra ton, you can give them a few mini-missile launchers on the underside where the 69B's cruise missiles are located. This would make the vanilla Scorpion a dedicated Interceptor, while the 69B is a fast attack/escort bomber that flies alongside Battlerams and Katanas and tries to drop their shields so the bigger fighters can make the best use of their payload and hit the target directly, or if shields are already down, to hit key targets (a single 69B Scorpion can quickly kill the main laser cannon of a Smasher-class cruiser, with a single missile if the roll is good)


CAF LRF-25 Proctor-Class Long-Range Interceptor
I really like this heavy fighter, but it needs a picture badly. Also, I take it that the 4D6x10 for the lasers is per laser, right? Considering it's long-range role, I think this probably needs a few reloads for the Medium-range missile launchers.

Honestly, as much as I like this thing, i think it's ready for a successor. A larger craft (a full-fledged ship at least big enough to have some sort of a common room between the cockpit and the sleeping coffins) with reloads for it's missiles, a larger autocannon (no reason it can't use the Scorpion's), and maybe a couple of turrets to defend against multiple enemies. Something that can keep a patrol up for a long time, and maybe even fight a couple skirmishes before it needs to be repaired/resupplied.


SF-101A/AI/LR Black Eagle Medium Fighter
This D-Wing fighter is the CAF's normal go-to space fighter, capable of a multitude of roles. The direct-fire weapons individually are less than the Scorpion's big gun, but they make up for it in versatility. The mini-missiles have better numbers this time (enough to use them as anti-fighter weapons in a pinch, I suppose), but I think the only real drawback is that again, the underside hardpoints have no alternative to the Cruise Missiles for the AI and/or LR variants, leaving them to depend on the less-guided and shorter-range Mini-missiles, which again is a bad thing.


BIF-67 Katana-Class Fighter Ship
The Black Eagle's rival for CAF Medium Fighter. The CAF picked these up supposedly to pick up the slack when the Galactic Arrmory couldn't meet demand for the Black Eagle, but I can see a lot of intrigue in the Senate if the Katana continues to perform as well as it's stats suggest it can. Not to mention rivalries between the pilots. The Black Eagle is faster and tougher, while the Katana has better shields and much more versatility with the pods. That versatility comes with a price however, literally. The Katana is less expensive at it's base cost, but getting just two pods could even that out depending on which you get. At it's base, the Katana is also underpowered with direct-fire weapons, but can carry more cruise missiles and more importantly, carry more than cruise missiles on those hardpoints.

Anti-Aircraft pod -- The GR gun handily makes up for the weak particle beam (especially if you bring two), while the missiles have enough payload to last for a while, or bring a lot of hurt for a few minutes. The only drawback is the short range for the gun.

Cruise Missile and laser Pod -- This pod, combined with the Katana's already high capacity, makes it one of the best strike bombers in the CAF fleet. Loaded with both pods of this design, it carries as many cruise missiles as four Scorpions or Black Eagles. The laser is weak, sure, but they're there just to give it a few defensive options anyway.

Mini-Missile Pod -- This actually carries enough Mini-missiles to be a legitimate threat with just a single salvo. Imagine that.

Plasma Ejection Pod -- Decent idea, but the range is just atrocious. At the speeds this thing can go at, just firing the thing should force you to make a piloting skill roll so you don't crash into the target.


FF-100 Flying Fang Interceptor
The Kreeghor's one and only Space fighter. And judging by the numerical designation, possibly ever. The direct armament is alright, but they could've made them bigger if they weren't so worried about Cosmo-Knights . The Missiles are fine, even the mini-missiles. Overall, it's a solid, but somewhat lightly-armed fighter.

SAMASzero wrote:K-HEX Missiles -- Remember when we thought these were the shiz-nite? Oh, that was just me? Not quite as hot anymore since the CWC missile table was adopted.

K-HEX minis are still superior to regular minis. Of course, as you pointed about above, minis really do not have any application in space with their inferior range. But they are still good in a ground based engagement.

But otherwise, yeah. Id like to see the wording on K-HEX be rewritten, or at least a new line of more powerful missiles...L-HEX? Heck, Naruni has upgraded most of their small arms between 105 and 109 PA...why not the power of their missiles as well?

Kagashi wrote:Heck, Naruni has upgraded most of their small arms between 105 and 109 PA...why not the power of their missiles as well?

In what book did this happen?

I've been wondering why the Anvil Galaxy keeps making claims that Naruni weapons are clearly superior (especially compared to HI-lasers) when the stats don't seem to support that at all.

--flatline

SAMASzero wrote:Okay, I'm sure we've all heard of the whole "There's no such thing as top speed in space except for the Speed of Light" thing by now. So rather than bring it up again (though I will mention that maybe a flat m/kph/m/s probably would've been a better indicator of speeds than using mach numbers), I'll toss in the free handwave that it's a maximum safe speed/acceleration for the vehicle in question's engine(s), structure, or Inertial Dampers. Accelerating past that point (the speed itself or the time it takes to reach that speed) is bad for the ship's (or pilot's) health for whatever reason, so the engine is set to automatically shut off when it reaches that point. Savvy? Let's move on.

speed =/= accelleration.

accelleration is the rate which your speed increases, defined by an increase over a specified time. an accelleration of 10 meters per second squared for example, means that every second your speed goes up by 10 meters per second. to put that into 'palladium' units, that's about 0.5 mach every melee.

travelling at a given speed while not under accelleration has no effect on the pilot/passengers/crew, so that can't be used as an excuse for the low numbers. and if the listed 'speeds' are instead used as accelleration, there is no need for a limiter that enforces a low 'top speed', because what the forces experianced by the crew are proportional to the rate of accelleration, not the speeds at which they travel. a ship accellerating at 1 gravity of accelleration (10m/s^2) will only ever place forces equal to one gravity on it's crew, even if it accellerates long enough to approach light speed.


there is a canon 'upper limit' for contragravitic drives, found in Anvil Galaxy, which is .6c, or 60% of the speed of light. in palladium units, that comes to arround mach 600,000..
no mechanic exists to intergrate this into the canon ship entries however. a switch to an accelleration based system, which solving most of the sublight travel problems the ships have (like being unable to attain orbital velocities*, unable to match
orbits with planets**, and being unable to catch up to most stars***), it opens up issues involving the absurdly short ranges of weapons and systems, as well as a need for rules to handle things like high speed impacts.

* orbital velocity for objects around earth is approximately 33 to 36 mach. faster and you escape to a solar orbit. slower and you fall into the planet. no canon phase world ship can reach these speeds without houseruling.
**earth velocity as it orbits the sun is , or 107,300 km/h (or if you prefer 67,062 miles per hour). thats about mach 151. no canon phase world ship can reach these speeds without houseruling.
*** the sun's velocity as it orbits the galactic core is 777600km/h or 486,000 miles per hour. about mach 1,095. and the sun is a comparative slowpoke compared to most of the other stars out there. no canon phase world ship can reach these speeds without houseruling.

I should also mention that there is one stat that probably should've been added to at least the larger ships (if you wanna play Old-School Dogfighting with the fighters): Going back to Gundam, the official performance stats of many mobile suits give a reading for turn time: how long it takes for the vehicle to turn 180 degrees (this would be pretty important for Golgan ships, as I figured out).

yes, the turn rate would be helpful. certainly it would help establish why star fighters exist when you have capital ships able to match the same speeds/accelleration. due to things like moment of inertia, larger vessels in size and mass will pivot on their axis slower.

I don't have anything to say about your Review, but now I'm hooked on Legend of Galactic Heroes and want to find and watch it.

flatline wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Heck, Naruni has upgraded most of their small arms between 105 and 109 PA...why not the power of their missiles as well?

In what book did this happen?

I've been wondering why the Anvil Galaxy keeps making claims that Naruni weapons are clearly superior (especially compared to HI-lasers) when the stats don't seem to support that at all.

--flatline

Naruni Wave 2 (that stuff is not just for Rifts, but for PW as well). Advances like Thermo-Kinetic alloys allowed for their new slim line weapons which pack the same punch as the older model weapons, but with less weight. They have also developed new heavier rounds for sniper rifles (as well as lighter rounds for things like pistols and sub machine guns). Perhaps "upgraded" was a poor choice of words since they didnt take their standard weapon and make it more powerful, but they have made advances in their small arms since Rifts Mercenaries was set (105 PA).

For the second part of your post, remember, the stuff Naruni sells to the public are scaled back versions of their more superior weapons. We the players see very little to what power the Naruni really have. We do, however, have some examples. The difference between the commercially sold Fire Eater Attack Ship and the corporate operated Fire Spitter Attack Ships are significant (the Fire Spitter has 18% more armor, 50% more shields and main weapons deal 33% more damage. Additionally, it has significant bonuses over the Fire Eater). Also, we see an example of superior Naruni weapons over their commercially sold weapons in Rifts Mercenaries like the NE-1000 Modified Plasma Ejector Rifle and NE-50 Particle Beam Rifle which organic weapons have increased range, payload, and even damage in some cases. Of course, beyond that...we can only really guess to the true power of the Naruni.

cornholioprime wrote:I don't have anything to say about your Review, but now I'm hooked on Legend of Galactic Heroes and want to find and watch it.

Sadly, the only way to find it is in fansubs (it's a long series with a huge (thankfully at least half of it is rotating) cast) The story and characters are good though, and the series is, IMO, almost required watching for any fans of spaceships blasting the hell out of each other, for something a little outside the Star Wars paradigm.

I'll PM you a link to the fansubbers.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

SAMASzero wrote:Okay, I'm sure we've all heard of the whole "There's no such thing as top speed in space except for the Speed of Light" thing by now. So rather than bring it up again (though I will mention that maybe a flat m/kph/m/s probably would've been a better indicator of speeds than using mach numbers), I'll toss in the free handwave that it's a maximum safe speed/acceleration for the vehicle in question's engine(s), structure, or Inertial Dampers. Accelerating past that point (the speed itself or the time it takes to reach that speed) is bad for the ship's (or pilot's) health for whatever reason, so the engine is set to automatically shut off when it reaches that point. Savvy? Let's move on.

speed =/= accelleration.

accelleration is the rate which your speed increases, defined by an increase over a specified time. an accelleration of 10 meters per second squared for example, means that every second your speed goes up by 10 meters per second. to put that into 'palladium' units, that's about 0.5 mach every melee.

travelling at a given speed while not under accelleration has no effect on the pilot/passengers/crew, so that can't be used as an excuse for the low numbers. and if the listed 'speeds' are instead used as accelleration, there is no need for a limiter that enforces a low 'top speed', because what the forces experianced by the crew are proportional to the rate of accelleration, not the speeds at which they travel. a ship accellerating at 1 gravity of accelleration (10m/s^2) will only ever place forces equal to one gravity on it's crew, even if it accellerates long enough to approach light speed.


there is a canon 'upper limit' for contragravitic drives, found in Anvil Galaxy, which is .6c, or 60% of the speed of light. in palladium units, that comes to arround mach 600,000..
no mechanic exists to intergrate this into the canon ship entries however. a switch to an accelleration based system, which solving most of the sublight travel problems the ships have (like being unable to attain orbital velocities*, unable to match
orbits with planets**, and being unable to catch up to most stars***), it opens up issues involving the absurdly short ranges of weapons and systems, as well as a need for rules to handle things like high speed impacts.

* orbital velocity for objects around earth is approximately 33 to 36 mach. faster and you escape to a solar orbit. slower and you fall into the planet. no canon phase world ship can reach these speeds without houseruling.
**earth velocity as it orbits the sun is , or 107,300 km/h (or if you prefer 67,062 miles per hour). thats about mach 151. no canon phase world ship can reach these speeds without houseruling.
*** the sun's velocity as it orbits the galactic core is 777600km/h or 486,000 miles per hour. about mach 1,095. and the sun is a comparative slowpoke compared to most of the other stars out there. no canon phase world ship can reach these speeds without houseruling.

I should also mention that there is one stat that probably should've been added to at least the larger ships (if you wanna play Old-School Dogfighting with the fighters): Going back to Gundam, the official performance stats of many mobile suits give a reading for turn time: how long it takes for the vehicle to turn 180 degrees (this would be pretty important for Golgan ships, as I figured out).

yes, the turn rate would be helpful. certainly it would help establish why star fighters exist when you have capital ships able to match the same speeds/accelleration. due to things like moment of inertia, larger vessels in size and mass will pivot on their axis slower.

That's why I said it was a Handwave. By definition, they don't hold up to close scrutinty.

but ideally they should hold up to casual scrutiny. this one didn't hold up to any scrutiny.
i think it's easier to just admit that the game has a wonky space travel system in need of houseruling, and move on from there. trying to invent an excuse to justify the wonkyness will just muddle the situation and confuse people.

Not carring...much.
Let's just all agree that C.J. (and every other writer brought into the project for PW) had great idea's but his math (and the mahth brought to the table by Kevin "I have no clue about scale or reality" Siembiada) is broken... like completely totally broken and move along.
Whining and winging about the fact the speeds / ranges make no sense is NOT going to make him re-publish the material with "CORRECT" numbers (he doesn't give two wet ones about anyones opinion but his own, plus it would be far too expensive), nor will it have him bring someone in with a slide-rule and scientific calculator and physics-major degree to post 'free' cutting room floor fixes for the as-stated brokenness.

Suck it up and just make do, OR house rule with "reel-wurld fizzickz" to your hearts content.

I'm not saying PBooks should get off scott free, heck no... but look at D20 Future...no...LOOK AT IT... done?
Yeah... ranges are in inches / feet increments.

Ditto with acceleration curves.
Arbitrary based on battle-matt grids with scales making no sense unless the GM themself provides one.

Arguing any further on the broken math has been invalidated by MULTIPLE game companies and systems.
Go and play Traveller if you want "real" stuff.

Personally, I leave the "speeds" alone, multiply the FTL "speeds" by 10 and the capital ship ranges by 10k or 100k depending on the specific weapon system. Makes it much easier for me to port in my Robotech, Star Wars and Star Trek stuff

Sorry, had a little bit of a problem when updating the tank section. (incidentally, there's been a small update to the tank post). But I was gonna continue anyway, so here we go with more space fighters!

NE-SF10 Broadsword Delta-Wing Multi-Environment Fighter (Phase World)
I dunno, I just really remember feeling a sense of disappointment when I first read this. Maybe it was the lack of Plasma Cartridge weaponry. But the loadout on this thing is just really underwhelming. I think the fact that the ordnance consists entirely of mini-missiles really limits the power and tactical application of this design.

Also, it's kind of odd that this fighter is said to compare favorably against the Flying Fang. The Fang is both faster and more maneuverable, and can hit at ranges past 10 miles. It's not hard to see why it's losing badly to the Katana in sales.


FB-49 Fire-Eater Attack Ship/NCD-02 Fire-Spitter Attack Ship (Phase World Sourcebook/Fleets of the Three Galaxies)

I can see that Naruni has no problems with selling this baby. Even the stripped-down commercial version is superior to the Broadsword. It may be lighter on the direct firepower, but the bombs more than make up for it.

The Fire-Spitter is of course absurdly superior to the commercial version. Faster, more maneuverable, more powerful weapons... and I take back what I said about K-HEX missiles being weak now.


Rapier-Class Stealth Fighter (Dimensional Outbreak)
This is another case of the stats not lining up with the fluff text, but for once it works in the machine's favor. It actually does have more firepower than the Broadsword (if you keep the turrets). The multi-launcher (cribbed from the movie Stealth I presume, but it's a great thing to copy) is awesome, capable of launching everything from Mini- to Cruise Missiles. With some expansion on the optional turrets to a truly modular system, Naruni would have a winner on their hands even without the Stealth system. This sucker is fast, and looks badass to boot.

But that's not the scary part. No, the truly scary thing is that you just know Naruni is gonna make a Corporate version for their own personal use. Compare the differences between the Fire-Eater and -Spitter, then imagine those enhancements applied to the Rapier. You will never miss a Naruni payment again.


Star Ghost-Class Fighter (Phase World)
I always considered this to be kind of ugly myself, but I have to respect it's capabilities (even if it depends on Mini-Missiles a little too much). I really wanna see a Promethean Mech, though.


Shadow Bolt Strike Ship (Phase World)
The UWW's one and only vehicle in the book could be better (epecially those TK machineguns), but shows a lot of promise I think was never quite followed up on for much of the other books. Personally, I think the UWW as a whole depends too much on Bottled Demons.

Next time, Demon fighters, Shuttles, and I finally get to the meat of the setting.

Honestly, I'm not sure how I would do a review of Character Classes. Not that it's a bad idea, it's just that these threads (I've got two more on the Rifts forum for those who don't visit it often) are more of an expression of my mech-headedness. That said, I am planning something a little bigger later that will involve a look at character classes, so maybe after that, if I can get into the swing of it.

Necrol Ships
I admit, I was planning on skipping them entirely, but I figured I would say at least a little about them. I kinda like Bio-Tech ships, if maybe not as much as pure technological ones (one of my favorite Sega Genesis games was Bio-Hazard Battle, and you can't forget R-Type). It's actually a nice distinctive (I hope) "Rifts" touch that these are effectively supernatural monsters.


DI-SH50 Draygon Star Hawk
Okay, maybe someone is taking the "Rag-Tag group of Rebels vs. the Evil Empire" analogy a little too far. This thing is one backseat droid and a set of S-foils away from Kevin getting a nasty letter from Lucasfilm.

Seriously, the Star Hawk is actually a lot like I said the Scorpion should be. Like the scorpion, it's unshielded but fast, and has a decent weapons loadout for it's size. But the Medium-Range missiles give some much-needed reach.


DI-DF2000 Dragon Fang
This sucker is nasty on the direct fire tip, but the Cruise Missiles take it a little outside of it's specialty (especially considering the ship that comes next). They're a nice option, but a modular mount like the Naruni Rapier will later use would've served this design better. The vibro-blades sound good on paper, but I have serious doubts about any realistic application: Most ships in this universe have too many protrusions and the like to make many long cutting runs.


DI-N500/DI-N501/CG Nova Star Fighter
A respectable Heavy Bomber with frightening speed (with the boosters, it's as fast as a scorpion!) and deadly weapons. Even without the Cruise Missiles, it can still put the hurt on not only frigates, but heavier ships as well. The only change I would make is to make the forward lasers into turrets, so it can defend itself without necessarily veering from it's attack run.


RAJCF-V4.5 Jesstra Multi-role Aerospace Fighter
This otherwise uniremarkable fighter is a perfect example of how it's the man, not the machine, that makes a fighter dangerous. It's Ordnance is pretty weak for the Argosy's only apparent fighter, but those guns! Unimpressive on their own, until you realize that they can fire two to three times as many times as most other fighters due to the Zebulon pilot. Not a big threat to a large ship, but I'm pretty sure Frigates hate these babies, much less other fightercraft.

BS-117 Bone Scout
This has descent direct firepower for a scout craft, good speed and excellent range (FTL FTW!). Plus, if you use it enough, it turns into a demon! Ugly as sin, but then again, that's the whole point. The Chameleon and Atmosphere siphon are both insidious, as is the Kamikaze.


DF-22 Demon Fighter
This ship is a good justification for why the point-defense systems of larger ships (especially frigates) need to be bigger than just mini-missiles. The Dark Matter guns and long-range missiles are bad enough, but that Web is almost like a death sentence to frigates of all kinds. I also note than it has a Nuclear engine rather than the scout's antimatter one, and thus no Kamikaze attack. The added shield also means that you are likely considered less expendable than a Bone Scout pilot.

Before we drop the ships, let's do the Dropships!

SAS-12 CAF Assault Shuttle
This would be a great shuttle, if it wasn't shield-less and almost as aerodynamic as a brick. The laser turrets have good coverage, and the particle beams are good for either anti-missiles or scouring an LZ of enemies.


TIV-TT1 "Rain of Death" Troop Transport
A superior shuttle to the CAF assault shuttle in nearly every way. The troop-manned turrets are also a nice touch. They'd be deadly gunships if they were faster. The only problem I have is Vince Martin's illustration, which really doesn't seem right by either the description or the fact that it's supposed to land on a planet.


Oni Shadow Ship
Though this ship is primarily used to get Ninjas to Point B undetected, it's weapons suggest that they could be used to help the Ninja perform his duties. The Lasers have enough power to hit something vital with good power, and the missiles are positioned to cover an escape. Really, nothing more should be needed.


Arcane Shuttle Mark XV
This is actually a decent Techno-Wizard vehicle. The only real weakness is that it has to be up against the target to put a portal inside. Ah well. Also, no picture (Boo!)


Haelra-Class Troop Shuttle
Above, I said the CAF shuttle almost maneuvers like a brick. This one maneuvers exactly like a brick. Seriously, what were the Golgans thinking? The engines are a pretty obvious weak point, and it's seriously lacking in Point Defense.


KS-TAS Raider-Class Combat Shuttle
The Raider seems light on the Point Defense (on the other hand, have fun dodging Long-Range missiles!), but then you realize that the Splugorth don't like fair fights. Preferably, Raiders are most likely launched when there's nothing around to contest their approach from orbit. Then the weapons make a lot more sense.

DLC-130 Hell Bringer
Probably one of the most efficient shuttles in fiction. It not only carries it's initial load of troops, but also serves as a portal to Hades, allowing entire armies to come though. Combined with the mortar launchers, it's a mobile beachhead. All in all, not something you want landing on your planet.

And now, the Main Event begins!

SF-20 Scimitar-class Light Patrol Ship
This is actually pretty decent in both design and stats. Unfortunately, it comes off a little lacking in both categories, too.

Design-wise, the main laser cannons should have been lowered to the middle, so that they could cover the ship's underside, ditto the GR turrets (or add a second pair underneath, but some might argue that's too much firepower (like I care )). The particle-beam weapons are either too few, or they should've been placed to cover more sides of the ship, instead of just the front.

That aside, the only real problem with the armament is the defensive launchers. Yep, Mini-Missiles again. At least half of them could've, arguably should've, been replaced with Medium- or Long-range missiles.


HF-75 Hunter-class Destroyer
Whenever I read this entry, I feel that it's about two different ships: The one in the picture, and the one in the stats. Both look similar, but have very different profiles.

The ship in the stats is fine all-rounder ship, built mostly to operate as part of a fleet. This makes the above-mentioned Scimitar a long-range patrol vessel, which is arguably is. It's a nice ship, but disappointingly unremarkable.

On the other hand, the ship in the picture that takes up half of page 86 is a different beast. It's got a huge cannon on the front that looks like it takes up a good quarter of the ship's volume (and maybe a third of the mass at least.) This isn't an all-rounder warship, this is what I like to call a Space Gun: a ship whose main weapon system consists of a single gun normally considered well outside it's weight class. It's secondary weapons don't quite seem to match up with the stats, either.

A Hunter that represents the ship in the picture would be more like this:

*Reduce the Main Body M.D.C. by about 500-1000 points (Space Guns tend to be fragile, and I need to make a little room).
* The Main Gun should do about 5 or 6D6x100 M.D.C. by itself. Keep the same rate of fire.
* The other two Particle Beam Cannons can stay the same damage-wise, or could be lowered to 1D6 x 100 M.D.C. Double the rate of fire (to two shots per Melee Round).
* Only two Rail Gun cannons, the one on top, and one on the underside. Identical to the ones on the Scimitar, but only a single barrel (I don't know if that means the damage should be halved, or the Scimitar damage doubled).
* Two Defense Laser turrets, one per side, but a third on the bottom could be used, too. 2-3D6 x 10 on a single blast, twice that for a double, of course.
* The Missile Launchers (Medium-Range, it seems) are perfect. They can stay.
* This actually goes for both versions: Scrap the Cruise Missile Launcher. It is not worth getting within a mile of an enemy ship for only one missile. Replace it with a multi-shot Long-Range Missile Launcher. With the right warheads, they can supplement either the guns or the Medium-range missiles.
* The Fighter bays can probably be removed too (to make room for the big gun). It can depend on the ships from the rest of the fleet for protection.

In any case, that's my (re)take on the Hunter illustration. Let's move on to the rest of the CAF fleet!


Warshield-Class Cruiser
This is a pretty sensible design that has descent stats, though I'm not 100% sure that the picture matches (it's soooo many guns!).

One question, though. What the hell is that big round opening in the lower part of the bow? I heard (on TV Tropes, I think) that it was the dedicated launch bay for the two Battlerams, which I actually kinda like.

Araneae-Class Intredictor
Space Opera needs more Science Vessels like this. The armament is light, but it's really not the point of this vessel (though I probably would've added some Frigate-sized guns at least). All in all, it's not a ship to fight on it's own, but instead should act as part of a fleet.

Protector-Class Battleship
This is a pretty cool "Workman"-like design. Nothing stands out, but it can deal impressive damage. One question comes up though: Why not replace the Mini-Missile turrets with the Laser-missile versions used on the CAF shuttle?

Packmaster-class Carriership
Like most Wolfen designs, the Packmaster has more guns than it needs to. Of course being a Carrier, it really doesn't need any, so that's not actually saying much. Like the Warshield, I don't think the weapons loadout matches the images, but I can't be certain of that due to the relative size. Of course, these extra guns probably take up space that could've been used to field more fightercraft. Which makes me wonder how bad the other potential designs were.

Emancipation-class Dreadnought
Like many in the CAF, I see this as pretty much mostly political phallus-waving, though they may come into their own in the course of the Minion War. The armament is good, but there is one serious problem: This is just an example, but how the hell does this thing carry 960 Battlerams? It's only maybe three times the size of a Packmaster, and has to carry even bigger guns, yet it's supposed to have more Giant Killer Death Bots than the Packmaster has small craft in total? This thing seriously needs to have it's Aerospace/Mecha loadout revised.

Next: The Transgalactic Empire!

SAMASzero wrote:960 Battlerams?

Plus like 960 of the flying "D" Blackhawks and... UGH

Someone did a 'David Webber grabs the idiot ball for math' here.
Seriously...and UNLIKE webber i'm pretty sure the person responsible for the INSANE numbers won't go "whoops, my bad; that makes NO SENSE." (Re; the absurdly LOW mass to volume ratio for the warships in the first 'Honor'verse' novels) will instead go "That's what we meant in the first place... what do you MEAN it can't carry that much? I said it could so it does."

DhAkael wrote:

SAMASzero wrote:960 Battlerams?

Plus like 960 of the flying "D" Blackhawks and... UGH

That actually makes at least a little sense. The Packmaster carries 440 normal-sized fighters (divided between Scorps, Blackhawks, and Katanas), so 960 isn't too far out there, and it could probably carry a few more. They just wouldn't be all Blackhawks. I'd say maybe 800-1200 fighters of various types, and cut the mecha complement to about a tenth.


TIV-AS Berserker-Class Warship

A nasty little ship that actually uses the game's range problems to it's advantage. The idea behind this ship's signature attack is arguably realistic, if not suicidally gutsy. The scary part is, going by the stats, the Berserker is as fast as or faster than every ship the CAF has except for the Hunter. Running will not help you, you have to kill it.


TIV-SC Smasher-class Cruiser
This ship doesn't have quite the long-range firepower of it's CAF counterpart, but it shares two features with it's little brother the Berserker: Speed and those Cruise Missile launchers. The fluff states that Smasher captains tend to use their ships like the smaller frigates, and this may be why.


TIV-BB Executioner-Class Battleship
The Kreeghor's sense of style costs this ship some of it's firepower. The book states that the CAF Protector trumps this vessel, and it shows. It has about four times the direct firepower of the Executioner, and it's lacking in point defense.


ID-1 Doombringer Dreadnought
This is what happens when the Kreeghor get Penis Envy. The Main lasers aren't quite as powerful as the Protector's paired guns, but it backs them up with six Smasher-class guns, of which four are facing foward. This means that unlike most ships, it also has actual rear-facing firepower, which may speak to Kreeghor paranoia about getting stabbed in the back (or a slow turning speed, gven the size). Point defense is fairly well-covered, as are the roughly 900 Flying Fangs.

Greetings!

Packmaster-class Carriership
Like most Wolfen designs, the Packmaster has more guns than it needs to. Of course being a Carrier, it really doesn't need any, so that's not actually saying much.

I think the opposite and in my opinion the Packmaster carry less guns than it need. A mile long flying brick need more self defense/point defense armament than that, especially if that flying brick carries that small amount of fighters. At least double the number of the defense guns (not the missiles, the guns). Its anti-ship armament is OK for a carrier. Not strong enough to act as a front line ship, but sufficient enough to defend itself and provide long range fire support.

The real problem with the Packmaster is its hangar size for its carried crafts. Its too large for the low numbers of the carried crafts.

Emancipation-class Dreadnought
It's only maybe three times the size of a Packmaster, and has to carry even bigger guns, yet it's supposed to have more Giant Killer Death Bots than the Packmaster has small craft in total? This thing seriously needs to have it's Aerospace/Mecha loadout revised.

Actually, its size is closer to 10 times the size of the Packmaster' than only three times (twice the width, twice the height and nearly triple the length and even if we lower this number to four, thanks to its shape, so it is large enough to carry so much robots and fighters).

However, I think this ship should be heavier than its listed.

ID-1 Doombringer Dreadnought

Have you seen that this ship's secondary particle beam cannons have shorter range than several fighter carried energy cannons and completely unsuitable for their role (4 miles range guns as anti-ship armament? ).

TIV-SC Smasher-class Cruiser

I think this ship is a light carrier or heavy raider and not a real cruiser. Furthermore, its description shows it more dangerous than it really is. It says, these ships sweep down on worlds, scour cities and farming fields with laser fire... However, their stats says otherwise. These ships are not designed to fly in an atmosphere, so they can not sweep down on any world and scour cities or farming fields with laser fire.