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Posted: **Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:38 am**

So who wins in a fight a jedi or a mindmelter ( assuming he has psi sword and super teli) of equal experience, which would come out on top.

Posted: **Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:51 am**

kogwar wrote:So who wins in a fight a jedi or a mindmelter ( assuming he has psi sword and super teli) of equal experience, which would come out on top.

As you would most likely have to assign stats to the Jedi in order to see how he matches up, I'd say that that's probably not going to be allowed.

....besides....you didn't say whether the Jedi was from the Movies, the CGI Clone Wars series....OR......the nigh-invincible supermen of the animated Clone Wars series...

:twisted:

Posted: **Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:58 pm**

cornholioprime wrote:
kogwar wrote:So who wins in a fight a jedi or a mindmelter ( assuming he has psi sword and super teli) of equal experience, which would come out on top.
As you would most likely have to assign stats to the Jedi in order to see how he matches up, I'd say that that's probably not going to be allowed.

....besides....you didn't say whether the Jedi was from the Movies, the CGI Clone Wars series....OR......the nigh-invincible supermen of the animated Clone Wars series...

Because the books don't exist? Exar Kun's era of Jedi where no push overs.

Posted: **Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:08 pm**

Cinos wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
kogwar wrote:So who wins in a fight a jedi or a mindmelter ( assuming he has psi sword and super teli) of equal experience, which would come out on top.
As you would most likely have to assign stats to the Jedi in order to see how he matches up, I'd say that that's probably not going to be allowed.

....besides....you didn't say whether the Jedi was from the Movies, the CGI Clone Wars series....OR......the nigh-invincible supermen of the animated Clone Wars series...

Because the books don't exist? Exar Kun's era of Jedi where no push overs.

Heh.

Exar Kun himself was no pushover.

Posted: **Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:14 pm**

Voted Jedi. Because they are cooler.

Posted: **Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:39 pm**

After some thought;

Darkside Jedi vs Mind Melter; Mind Melter wins, able to manipulate into blind aggression / action.

Light Side Jedi vs Mind Melter; Jedi wins, superior direct combat capability, so long as they can remain in a calm state of mind to defend against mental assault.

Prequal Jedi vs Mind Melter; Prequal Jedi, due to plot armor, fight would make no sense, and Mind Melter would make obvious mistake and use a chainsaw sword / light saber in a highly choreographed fight for 25 minutes for no reason.

Old Republic Jedi vs Mind Melter; Mind Melter, would slowly lure the jedi into the dark side through a series of long, manipulative encounters to eventually create a new ally.

Old Republic Sith / Dark Jedi vs Mind Melter: Jedi, would smash a sun into the Mind Melter.

Posted: **Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:36 am**

Rappanui wrote:Besides the nearest thing to a Jedi in Rifts is the Psi slinger. And he isn't that great.

The nearest thing to a Jedi in Rifts is a Mind Melter. Ability to mess with peoples minds, ability to sense emotions, events and places, move things with mind, use an energy sword. Perhaps a Cyber-Knight.

Posted: **Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:05 pm**

As far as combat goes don't forget intuitive combat for the mindmelter and they have pyro kinesis or elctrokinesis have fun blocking fire and your lighting does nothing also telimech the light saber and have fun throwing a psi sword out of a Melters hands.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2012 10:57 am**

Mind melters can create force feilds, which are apparently the bane of all jedi everywhere(seriously, they never bother even trying to use lightsabers against them or any other force powers against force field opponents...). Mind melters win against all jedi types...

Posted: **Sun May 06, 2012 11:20 am**

Mind Melter would most likely win unless their power selection is really sub-par or there is a great experience difference. Jedi can do some stuff on a larger scale than a Mind Melter, extrasensory range and telekinetic lifting capacity, but that's the extent of their superiority and neither of those is much of an advantage in a one on one fight.

Posted: **Sun May 06, 2012 11:44 am**

Haven't the movies taught you anything? Nobody can run away like a Jedi unless the plot demands that they die.

--flatline

Posted: **Sun May 06, 2012 12:36 pm**

Wow... Been debating this one in my head and with my wife for a few days now. Pros and cons weigh heavy on both sides and we both came to this final conclusion...
In a battle between a Mind Melter and a Jedi, the Mind Melter has a serious advantage with the range of powers and abilities they have. Yes, a Jedi can mimic most of these powers with various Force powers; Electrokinesis=Force Lightning, Hypnotic Suggestion=Jedi Mind Trick, Telekinesis=Force Push and on and on and on.... but the Mind Melter has a distinct power advantage when you throw in such abilities as Bio-Manipulation, Pyrokinesis, TK Forcefield and a laundry list of others.
The Jedi, on the other hand, have proven themselves to have a disticnct advantage in the area of hand to hand combat. granted, Mind melters can take HtH:MA and maybe put themselves on par, but historically, a Jedi is trained from a very tender young age in the ways of using/manipulating the Force as well as the tools of a Jedi (the lightsaber) and their practical applications (combat/self-defense). Coupled with what is supposed to be among the highest orders of discipline and self-control (There are exceptions or else there wouldn't be any Dark Jedi/Sith) and you have what can only be described, IMHO, as a high tech mystic Samurai, disciplined, ordered, efficient and most of all, extremely deadly. Jedi may also have one single power advantage over a Mind Melter... the Jedi's use of the Force does NOT require the expenditure of ISP. This is a wholly game dependant concept, however. Does a Jedi's use of the Force require the expenditure of some other measure of power in the form of some kind of points ticked off a character sheet? According to my copy of the Star Wars RPG the answer is no, although there are points available that may be expended in the use of a power or skill to increase your chances of success or even boost the strength of a power being used. This is where the grey area of a Mind Melter fighting either a Jedi or a Sith/Dark Jedi really muddle the argument a bit as most jedi are reluctant to use these points frivolously, particularly in heated combat, while a Sith is all too happy to boost his power as high as he can possibly go in order to achieve the all important victory.
Bottom line... In most battles between Jedi and Mind Melter, I can see the Mind Melter coming out on top, gaining an early advantage with a wider array of available powers and abilities. If he doesn't get a quick victory, however, a Jedi can start mopping the floor with him as the ISP starts to dwindle, particularly if the Jedi he's facing is a Sith who will be happily calling in Force Lightning and throwing cars, debris and any other handy loose heavy objects he may be able to see. My vote, just barely... is cast for the Mind Melter

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2012 3:39 pm**

Sounds like an awesome episode of "Deadliest Warrior"!

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2012 3:47 pm**

Oh, another point for the mind melter: Jedi are Dumb...really, really, really dumb. Not 'they have low intelligence', but they are trained to be as stupid as possible, not to mention intentionally hypocritical...

Yoda "Do or do not, there is no try"
Yoda "Only the sith deal in absolutes"

That's one small example of the hypocritical side.

On the stupid side, we're dealing with characters that can actively see the future. Not just premonitions, but actively see what is about to happen seconds and minutes before it actually happens. It's how anakin was able to do the pod race stuff, it's how they're able to deflect energy blasts with a sword, etc. Yet, despite having this ability they are ALWAYS getting stuck in traps. Traps a blind deaf person would be able to see coming a mile away.

When freaking nicholas cage is able to act smarter using the ability you're supposed to have, you know you have problems.

Hell, let's go to the most cataclismic example of stupidity. And spoilers for anyone that hasn't seen episode three. Obi wan beats anakin, the guy he know's is the chosen one, and leaves him next to a lake of lava to burn. Why? Couldn't kill his friend? BS, he was leaving him to die a much more horrible death, so it certainly wasn't compassion. Because he was an enemy? Yeah, he is, he's one of the strongest in the force in your generation. Give him a bloody force poke and put him in the lava. It would have been both merciful and prudent, and entirely in character. But no, let's leave the biggest threat to the galaxy in a place where he can still be rescue, while giving him an even bigger reason to hold a grudge and get even more nuts.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2012 4:32 pm**

Prince Artemis wrote:Oh, another point for the mind melter: Jedi are Dumb...really, really, really dumb. Not 'they have low intelligence', but they are trained to be as stupid as possible, not to mention intentionally hypocritical...

Yoda "Do or do not, there is no try"
Yoda "Only the sith deal in absolutes"

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes", was said by Obi-Wan to Anakin.

But I agree with the rest of your post. :ok:

(I voted Mind Melter, by the way.)

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2012 6:28 pm**

PhellaOne wrote:
Prince Artemis wrote:Oh, another point for the mind melter: Jedi are Dumb...really, really, really dumb. Not 'they have low intelligence', but they are trained to be as stupid as possible, not to mention intentionally hypocritical...

Yoda "Do or do not, there is no try"
Yoda "Only the sith deal in absolutes"

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes", was said by Obi-Wan to Anakin.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

(I voted Mind Melter, by the way.)

Just my two coppers on the subject, but...

Yes only the Sith deal in absolutes... and Yoda saying "Do or do not", is NOT an absolute... it is a choice. If Yoda were to say something like "There is only do"... THAT is an absolute. A single, imutable thing with zero other options available. Do... or do not... is a choice.

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2012 1:30 am**

JuliusCreed wrote:
PhellaOne wrote:
Prince Artemis wrote:Oh, another point for the mind melter: Jedi are Dumb...really, really, really dumb. Not 'they have low intelligence', but they are trained to be as stupid as possible, not to mention intentionally hypocritical...

Yoda "Do or do not, there is no try"
Yoda "Only the sith deal in absolutes"

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes", was said by Obi-Wan to Anakin.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

(I voted Mind Melter, by the way.)

Just my two coppers on the subject, but...

Yes only the Sith deal in absolutes... and Yoda saying "Do or do not", is NOT an absolute... it is a choice. If Yoda were to say something like "There is only do"... THAT is an absolute. A single, imutable thing with zero other options available. Do... or do not... is a choice.

Greetings and Salutations. So choices are okay such as ...

"You're either with me, or against me," like Anakin said (forgive me if I didn't quote exact, but same concept). That's a choice, so not an absolute.

And Obi-Wan responding, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute statement. It leaves no wiggle room. No choices, but an absolute and emphatic statement. I always found that hilarious myself. The statement contradicts itself.

Sorry, but that's something that always bugged me in that movie (also the Jedi are notorious for drawing their weapons first and/or attacking first in the prequels). Anyways, just wanted to get that off my chest. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2012 8:42 am**

Except the Jedi DO deal in absolutes. If they didn't then there wouldn't have been any reason to hide anakin's relationship to padme (though it was probably the worst kept secret in coresont and people chose to look the other way), but yoda gave anakin the whole speech about no attachment. Plus there's the whole 'fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate' bs.

Posted: **Wed May 09, 2012 12:37 am**

Prince Artemis wrote:Except the Jedi DO deal in absolutes. If they didn't then there wouldn't have been any reason to hide anakin's relationship to padme (though it was probably the worst kept secret in coresont and people chose to look the other way), but yoda gave anakin the whole speech about no attachment. Plus there's the whole 'fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate' bs.

Touche'

Posted: **Wed May 09, 2012 7:18 am**

Low level Jedi wins vs Low level Mindmelter

High level Jedi loses vs High level Mindmelter

Still can't decide :/

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:03 pm**

dont jedi always surrender get caught then cleverly escape. so it would go like this mindmelter challenges jedi surrenders. mindmelter locks jedi in cell jedi escapes three or four movies later they actually fight and the mindmelter kills the fool.lol

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:01 pm**

Secondhand Smoke wrote:Low level Jedi wins vs Low level Mindmelter

High level Jedi loses vs High level Mindmelter

Still can't decide :/

Do not under estimate the power of a mindmelter who knows what he is doing i learned that the hard way.
"Oh you have a lightsaber let me just chuck that away and bath you in flames bacause you arn't a high enough lv to hold flames back let alone do that and grab your sabre." Or heck just flash point their long really flamable robes.

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:16 pm**

Jedi. Their raw power is way greater. Their combat ability is way better.

Posted: **Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:49 pm**

For those in the Know; most of Yoda's quotes are based loosely on Taoist principles.......

Posted: **Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:16 pm**

I have two versions of the Star Wars RPG. In the D6 version, it requires Force Points to be spent to use powers, just like ISP. If both of the characters were to be converted to the same system, they would treat their powers in the same way (either they both work off of "points" and are limited OR they both can do their powers an infinite amount of times). So the argument of which can go longer is invalid unless looked at in the proper context.

As for ability, the both of them have access to roughly the same types of power. Their are exceptions. In no version of the Star Wars game have I seen anything that allows a Jedi to manipulate technology (Telemechanics and all the related powers). The Jedi are trained more in combat than the Mind Melter and also have more range and power to their abilities than the Mind Melter. But again, that boils down to having to put them both in the same system. As was mentioned earlier, Jedi have problems with force fields which is also an ability of the Mind Melter. If the Mind Melter were to take the right skill selections (including martial arts), he could come very close to the way that the Jedi are trained.

I believe that in the long run, the Mind Melter would win. Why? Because his psi-sword cannot be disarmed but the Jedi can have his lightsaber disabled through the use of telemechanics. While the Jedi still has the lightsaber, the Mind Melter can just stay behind the force field and use all of the powers he wants to whittle away at the Jedi until the lightsaber is rendered useless. At this point, the Mind Melter just drops the shield, activates intuitive combat and chops the Jedi to pieces. This can be aided by the fact that the Mind Melter can turn invisible, not much help but can slow the Jedi down by making him concentrate on where the Mind Melter is rather than doing something like pulling down something from space to crash into the Mind Melter. Considering we are talking about Jedi and not Sith (OP said specifically Jedi), the Jedi will not use powers such as force lightning while the Mind Melter can toss electricity and fire both. It will not be long before the Jedi falls.

Posted: **Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:13 am**

Let's think this through.
Jedi are obviously Master Psionics. Considering they don't go darkside regularly, they obviously have a very high ME. The combination of those two features will give them a huge advantage against the MM's abilities that have a save verses psi.
Against everything that is parried or dodges well I think that obviously will never hit a Jedi. Jedi can parry attacks from dozens of opponents at once without much trouble - if they existed in Rifts, their parry bonus would be so high it doesn't matter what attacks them - only a natural 20 has a chance of hitting them.

There isn't much of anything a MM could do against a Jedi except ask for mercy.

Posted: **Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:43 pm**

Cinos wrote:After some thought;

Darkside Jedi vs Mind Melter; Mind Melter wins, able to manipulate into blind aggression / action.

Light Side Jedi vs Mind Melter; Jedi wins, superior direct combat capability, so long as they can remain in a calm state of mind to defend against mental assault.

Prequal Jedi vs Mind Melter; Prequal Jedi, due to plot armor, fight would make no sense, and Mind Melter would make obvious mistake and use a chainsaw sword / light saber in a highly choreographed fight for 25 minutes for no reason.

Old Republic Jedi vs Mind Melter; Mind Melter, would slowly lure the jedi into the dark side through a series of long, manipulative encounters to eventually create a new ally.

Old Republic Sith / Dark Jedi vs Mind Melter: Jedi, would smash a sun into the Mind Melter.

Any Jedi vs Coalition States Mindmelter = Win for the Mindmelter, as he has the power of plot immunity

Posted: **Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:51 am**

And the debate goes on.

Posted: **Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:31 pm**

Mindmelter
This is the PALLADIUM forums!
Home field advantage.

And for the record, I don't think a CyberKnight with Sixth Sense would get Order 66'ed in the back by his or her own troops...and once the CK figured out that there was a betrayl going on...well, advanced targeting's going to be futzed as the CK runs for it.

Overall, starting with the same number of Jedi and CKs leading an army, with the latter given secret orders to ice 'em, I'd expect a bigger percentage of CKs than Jedi to survive. :twisted:

Posted: **Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:17 pm**

what if the mindmelter also studied kung fu? tk jump, tk sword, tk forcefield, and of course super tk. the jedi arent that impressive

Posted: **Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:06 am**

Panomas wrote:Question: Isn't a Mind Melter the Jedi equivalant of a Jedi Master; becuase they are the most powerful psionic class?

Change this question to Mind Melter to Jedi Master and I think it might be a little closer...

You might be right in that assessment.

Posted: **Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:31 am**

I am voting Jedi. Mostly because they can activate all of their abilities with a thought. Also because Intuitive Combat and Psi-Sword would be instantly and consistently accessible, unlike any Master Psychic.
But truly, the duel depends on circumstances. Much like Deadliest Warrior's fight between William Wallace vs Shaka Zulu. Terrain, climate, etc all play a significant part of the scenario.

Posted: **Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:36 pm**

Jedi.

Jedi actually move at vastly superhuman speeds; for all of his powers, even the Mind Melter must perceive the world around him, and react to it, at merely human speed.

A Jedi of sufficient skill could get in a potentially fatal single attack before the Mind Melter's brain even gets and translates the signal from the light entering his eyes and striking his optic nerve.

(For fairly obvious reasons both technical and visually aesthetic, Jedi are visually depicted as being MUCH slower in the movies than they are officially written to be; Jedi were often written in various books to frequently train themselves by sparring either with each other or with combat droids whose perceptions and 'reflexes' were at lightning speed. There's a reason why so few of them could help to keep the peace across an entire galaxy.)

Posted: **Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:44 am**

Levi wrote:Jedi. Their raw power is way greater. Their combat ability is way better.

BOth these statements are false.

On an unrelated note, Jedi reject emotions. Science says we can't make decisions without them, Jedi are too indecisive to matter.

Posted: **Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:54 am**

wyrmraker wrote:I am voting Jedi. Mostly because they can activate all of their abilities with a thought. Also because Intuitive Combat and Psi-Sword would be instantly and consistently accessible, unlike any Master Psychic.

Except that Jedi don't have either of those powers.
They have a very crappy precog(Anakin didn't foresee himself killing his wife/Luke couldn't foresee the Ice monster, or Vader's trap, or the emperor's trap/The Emperor didn't foresee Vader's turning or the rebels success against his trap, etc...). Their emotion/mind reading it too slow to be useful, and they certainly don't have anything like mind block. Electrokinesis renders Force Lightning/Emerald Justice useless. They build Lightsabers because they don't have Psi-Sword! And both Original and XtraCrispy CyberKnights are Master Psychics with an at will Psi-Sword.

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:10 am**

This can't be done without knowing the abilities of the given Jedi and given Mind Melter.

Give me a Mind Melter NPC from a Rifts book and a specific Jedi (and what time of their life) and we can give an approximation.

Example: don't just say "Anakin" because we don't know which episode strength.

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:29 am**

So far, the only mention of a Mind Melter I can find is an immortal from Mercenaries. She is counted as having 9th level in Mind Melter. I will look further tomorrow and then compare to my gaming books for Star Wars. If I can not find an NPC Mind Melter, I will use one of my own (100% book legal and won't even go all super race-godling-whatever else type of build). I am talking absolutely legal.

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:39 pm**

Jedi of course. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:59 pm**

Anthar wrote:Jedi of course. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Doubt it, they have a limited bag of tricks.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:02 pm**

Icefalcon wrote:
Anthar wrote:Jedi of course. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Doubt it, they have a limited bag of tricks.

If you think Jedi have a limited bag of tricks you do not know Star Wars as well as you seem to think you do.

Based on ALL official information regarding Jedi they can in fact do pretty much everything a mind melter can with the exception of psi-sword. Not only that they can do it at significantly longer ranges and better effect than any Mind Melter can.

Just based on the movies:

Yoda - Lifts an X-Wing out of a swamp. An X-wing likely weighs multiple tons. (TK but better)
Obi-Wan - Leaps at least 50+ feet in Episode One (TK leap but better)
Darth Vader - Blocks Energy Blast with his hands with no effect to him. (Impervious to energy)
Luke - Calls to Leia using telepathy at ranges exceeding 100's of kilometers away (Telepathy but better)
Luke and Darth Vader - Can sense each others general feelings and mood (Empathy)
Luke - Clairvoyance on Dagobah (Clairvoyance)
Palpatine - Lightning (Limited Electrokinesis)
All Jedi - exhibit Intuitive Combat, danger/sixth sense, and combat prowess well beyond any mind melter. They can also sense force users at significant range and whether they are light side or dark side.

These are just some examples from the movies. This isn't taking into account all the novels, RPG books, and TV series which is considered official. In those sources there is demonstrations of weather control (no psionics equivalent), telemechanics, force shields (psychic body field) and many other things as well.

I vote Jedi for the simple fact they are epic in scale for their potential as opposed to Mind Melters that are just powerful psychics.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:52 pm**

jaymz wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:
Anthar wrote:Jedi of course. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Doubt it, they have a limited bag of tricks.

If you think Jedi have a limited bag of tricks you do not know Star Wars as well as you seem to think you do.

Based on ALL official information regarding Jedi they can in fact do pretty much everything a mind melter can with the exception of psi-sword. Not only that they can do it at significantly longer ranges and better effect than any Mind Melter can.

Just based on the movies:

Yoda - Lifts an X-Wing out of a swamp. An X-wing likely weighs multiple tons. (TK but better)
Obi-Wan - Leaps at least 50+ feet in Episode One (TK leap but better)
Darth Vader - Blocks Energy Blast with his hands with no effect to him. (Impervious to energy)
Luke - Calls to Leia using telepathy at ranges exceeding 100's of kilometers away (Telepathy but better)
Luke and Darth Vader - Can sense each others general feelings and mood (Empathy)
Luke - Clairvoyance on Dagobah (Clairvoyance)
Palpatine - Lightning (Limited Electrokinesis)
All Jedi - exhibit Intuitive Combat, danger/sixth sense, and combat prowess well beyond any mind melter. They can also sense force users at significant range and whether they are light side or dark side.

These are just some examples from the movies. This isn't taking into account all the novels, RPG books, and TV series which is considered official. In those sources there is demonstrations of weather control (no psionics equivalent), telemechanics, force shields (psychic body field) and many other things as well.

I vote Jedi for the simple fact they are epic in scale for their potential as opposed to Mind Melters that are just powerful psychics.

Jaymz-best analogy yet! Problem is how DU Quantify all this?? This is where I agree to disagree wid yas........... Ya have a hard time just making the numbers really work for jedi! But you go BOOOYYYY!

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:39 pm**

OK, You ready for the real numbers? Jedi (WotC, Star Wars RPG), Mind Melter (RUE)

Jedi Consular 1st level: Start with Exotic Weapon (lightsaber), Force Sensitive (allows purchase of Force powers and confers 1 bonus Force point), one Force feat (Control, Alter or Sense; the three categories powers fall into), the ability to deflect blaster bolts and projectiles (but not return the shot), and force skills (their powers) which they can have a maximum of 10 separate powers but no other skills. Of course most of the force skills (powers) can be used untrained but are giving a good chance to succeed. Looks like an average of seven powers per category (control, alter, sense). Starts with 2 Force Points (used to gain bonus dice to any one roll). Has to spend vitality (equivalent of SDC) to use most force powers.

Mind Melter 1st level: Starts with 3d6x10 ISP (used to activate powers), four preselected power (including mind block and sixth sense), add 12 other powers (four from each category including super), gains bonuses to initiative and saves (especially vs. ALL forms of mind control), large list of skills (especially unarmed combat, which the Jedi does not have access to yet).

At this point, the Mind Melter will wipe the floor with a Jedi. Especially if the Mind Melter has Telemechanics and Telemechanic Paralysis to disable the Jedi's lightsaber and then uses Bio-Manipulation to paralyze or electrokinesis to zap the Jedi into dust since they wear no armor.

The higher the level, the closer this combat becomes. The most crucial levels for the Jedi are levels 4 (when he now has all three power categories) and 7 (when he actually obtains the level of Knight). Beyond this point, the only thing separating these two is the powers used (for example, a Jedi would never use Force Lightning because it immediately gains them a Dark Side point) and the weapons they employ (lightsaber has an edge until the mind melter destroys it)

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:26 pm**

Icefalcon, no offense but using to different game systems is comparing apples to oranges even if you don't think you are.

I know the d20 game. It does pisspoor job of actually showing Jedi capabilities. Mostly to nerf the Jedi and keep them from so overshadowing any other class being played because as evidenced in the movies, novels etc they FAR outclass any other possible character class yet in the RPGs they are barely on par much of the time.

You mention a Mind Melter has a lot of skills. Not sure what book you looked at but Mind Melter's have one of the lower number of skills in the book. Jedi, as per the non RPG sources are very skilled in a wide array of things. d20 actually limits skill knowledge in both the d20/revised and even more so in the Saga edition. The d20 systems are not well known for the wide array of skills and skill availability.

There is a reason I do not use the RPG sources for any kind of hard data and only fluff information.

Doing what you did above is like saying an AT-AT walker only has 180 hit points so it MUST be weaker than a UAR-1 Enforcer because that has 350 MDC. It makes no sense ot use that information for a comparison.

What we DO have is visual evidence of ranges of powers and effectiveness of powers of the Jedi which CAN be compared to posted official ranges and effectiveness of powers of Mind Melters.

I have also repeatedly seen the mention of telemechanic powers disabling a Jedi's lightsabre.....one you have to be pretty damn close to use it (40ft is not that far) and two a Jedi's lightsabre is infused with the force and tied to him as such and personally I would consider it part of him thereby allowing the Jedi to save versus that power to resist the deactivation of the lightsabre. As you can imagine Jedi are likely to have pretty high save bonuses versus psychic abilities. (personally I see magic, psionics and the force effectively as all the same thing just being tapped in different ways)

There is no real way to compare the two in any way other than anecdotally and anecdotally Jedi are by far more powerful and have way more potential to be more powerful.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:29 pm**

Grandil wrote:Jaymz-best analogy yet! Problem is how DU Quantify all this?? This is where I agree to disagree wid yas........... Ya have a hard time just making the numbers really work for jedi! But you go BOOOYYYY!

Honestly? You can't. You can only do so anecdotally. In that manner Jedi abilities are significantly larger in scope and power than any Mind Melter.

I have done a Jedi OCC. It is underpowered in my opinion but is more powerful than a Mind Melter. Until I can come up with a better way to do so I am left with what I see is a underrated Jedi OCC.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:09 am**

Those of us who have kept up with the various (official) Books know that even Genndy Tartovsky's now-famous animated short featuring Jedi Master Mace Windu......

......gives the viewer only a taste of what a Jedi Master can do as was laid out in the novels.

For those very few of you who have been living under a rock (

), I present to you the Animated Short from the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated series (which in my not-so-humble opinion far outshone the movie that followed it).

Mace Windu, Jedi Master (and not even the best of the best of them)

If you still think that a Mind Melter can take that on, I say good luck to your Mind Melter. And please let me know where to mail the body parts afterward.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:21 am**

Cornholio, while I really enjoyed the animated shorts, its really was about hyperbole in those two seasons.....though just using the recent clone wars series (cgi) you can easily see Jedi outclass Mind Melters by a wide margin without such hyperbole needed

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:55 am**

jaymz wrote:Icefalcon, no offense but using to different game systems is comparing apples to oranges even if you don't think you are.

I know the d20 game. It does pisspoor job of actually showing Jedi capabilities. Mostly to nerf the Jedi and keep them from so overshadowing any other class being played because as evidenced in the movies, novels etc they FAR outclass any other possible character class yet in the RPGs they are barely on par much of the time.

You mention a Mind Melter has a lot of skills. Not sure what book you looked at but Mind Melter's have one of the lower number of skills in the book. Jedi, as per the non RPG sources are very skilled in a wide array of things. d20 actually limits skill knowledge in both the d20/revised and even more so in the Saga edition. The d20 systems are not well known for the wide array of skills and skill availability.

There is a reason I do not use the RPG sources for any kind of hard data and only fluff information.

Doing what you did above is like saying an AT-AT walker only has 180 hit points so it MUST be weaker than a UAR-1 Enforcer because that has 350 MDC. It makes no sense ot use that information for a comparison.

What we DO have is visual evidence of ranges of powers and effectiveness of powers of the Jedi which CAN be compared to posted official ranges and effectiveness of powers of Mind Melters.

I have also repeatedly seen the mention of telemechanic powers disabling a Jedi's lightsabre.....one you have to be pretty damn close to use it (40ft is not that far) and two a Jedi's lightsabre is infused with the force and tied to him as such and personally I would consider it part of him thereby allowing the Jedi to save versus that power to resist the deactivation of the lightsabre. As you can imagine Jedi are likely to have pretty high save bonuses versus psychic abilities. (personally I see magic, psionics and the force effectively as all the same thing just being tapped in different ways)

There is no real way to compare the two in any way other than anecdotally and anecdotally Jedi are by far more powerful and have way more potential to be more powerful.

I get what your saying with the glaring difference in the game mechanics not being a good judge. I can accept and even agree that you are right there.

On the skills, I was trying to say that the Mind Melter would have more actual skill than the Jedi at level 1.

As for lightsabers, I have seen many sources (some of them in the Star Wars expanded universe) that sets a presidance for being able to affect a Jedi's lightsaber both through turning off and shorting it out.

However, I will have to point out one thing we have seen time and again with the Jedi. They cannot get through force fields, even with the lightsaber. I would say that every time a Mind Melter puts one up, they will automatically get the upper hand on the Jedi.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:39 am**

Icefalcon wrote:
As for lightsabers, I have seen many sources (some of them in the Star Wars expanded universe) that sets a presidance for being able to affect a Jedi's lightsaber both through turning off and shorting it out.

However, I will have to point out one thing we have seen time and again with the Jedi. They cannot get through force fields, even with the lightsaber. I would say that every time a Mind Melter puts one up, they will automatically get the upper hand on the Jedi.

About Lightsabres shorting out/off....the only thing I know of that does that is Cortosis. It is an ore that interferes with the workings of a Lightsabre. It is also quite rare and hard to manufacture anything with. Mandalorian iron is also resistant but that just means you cannot easily burn through it. Otherwise Lightsabres have been shown to be quite capable of cutting through pretty much anything and work rather well unless their assembly is incorrect somehow.

I am not trying to be a dink about this but could you lease point to where they cannot deal with force fields? I have only read and seen examples of them trying to reflect blasters back at shielded things or trying to physically go thru them. Mind you Mind Melters would have the same issue in regards to dealing with most force fields and Jedi can also erect a "Psychic Body Field or TK Forcefield" themselves so to me this whole aspect is mitigated.

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:46 am**

The winner? That would be the people selling popcorn to everyone watching the fanboi's nerd rage.

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:55 am**

eliakon wrote:The winner? That would be the people selling popcorn to everyone watching the fanboi's nerd rage.

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