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Ok, someone please explain why, under limitations of Animal Conjuring it states that the conjurer cannot conjure microscopic insects, ....NOR ANY TYPE OF PLANT LIFE. Yet, later on it says they can conjure a plank of wood, clothing, rope, etc.

Now I can see the clothing possibly being artificial materials in Rifts, but in Palladium Fantasy? How is a Palladium Conjurer supposed to conjure a cloak, pants, a plank of wood, an arrow shaft, etc without being able to conjure ANY FORM OF PLANT LIFE? Granted the clothing could be leather, but metal arrow shafts weren't used till the industrial age. Last time I checked, wood ie. trees were plants! Also, rope would have to be created from plant fibers (unless in an oriental setting where silk could be used).

Please tell me how you handle the discrepancy. I've never played nor GM'd for a conjurer. I'm leaning towards disregarding the ban on any sort of plant life.

I'm also leaning towards ignoring the "no precious metals" rule. If you can conjure steel (an alloy) why not an element (silver, gold, etc)? Besides, the items are temporary. It's not like a conjurer can create a pile of gold and get rich. Maybe a quick scam, but not permanent wealth (unless he trades all his PPE in ....)
(edit: Just noticed this is not present in the Rifts Conjurer, so ignoring this)

Never liked the Conjurer class as it was written in Federation of Magic. I always felt it needed to be massively reworked. The rules for it were just nonsensical.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Never liked the Conjurer class as it was written in Federation of Magic. I always felt it needed to be massively reworked. The rules for it were just nonsensical.

Agreed, but I am playing with a group where more than half of the group is new to Palladium. I don't want to totally disregard the written stuff just yet.

barna10 wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:Never liked the Conjurer class as it was written in Federation of Magic. I always felt it needed to be massively reworked. The rules for it were just nonsensical.

Agreed, but I am playing with a group where more than half of the group is new to Palladium. I don't want to totally disregard the written stuff just yet.

If not totally overhauling it, just reduce PPE costs, increase conjured item duration, and remove the more asinine limitations, then add some spells to their available spell list.

barna10 wrote:Ok, someone please explain why, under limitations of Animal Conjuring it states that the conjurer cannot conjure microscopic insects, ....NOR ANY TYPE OF PLANT LIFE. Yet, later on it says they can conjure a plank of wood, clothing, rope, etc.

Now I can see the clothing possibly being artificial materials in Rifts, but in Palladium Fantasy? How is a Palladium Conjurer supposed to conjure a cloak, pants, a plank of wood, an arrow shaft, etc without being able to conjure ANY FORM OF PLANT LIFE? Granted the clothing could be leather, but metal arrow shafts weren't used till the industrial age. Last time I checked, wood ie. trees were plants! Also, rope would have to be created from plant fibers (unless in an oriental setting where silk could be used).

Please tell me how you handle the discrepancy. I've never played nor GM'd for a conjurer. I'm leaning towards disregarding the ban on any sort of plant life.

I'm also leaning towards ignoring the "no precious metals" rule. If you can conjure steel (an alloy) why not an element (silver, gold, etc)? Besides, the items are temporary. It's not like a conjurer can create a pile of gold and get rich. Maybe a quick scam, but not permanent wealth (unless he trades all his PPE in ....)
(edit: Just noticed this is not present in the Rifts Conjurer, so ignoring this)

I am not entirely sure (I would have to actually take a look at the class), but it seems they meant living plants, but they can conjure wooden planks because it is the dead, processed form of a tree, same with arrows, clothes, and rope. But that's just my take on the whole thing.

dragonfett wrote:I am not entirely sure (I would have to actually take a look at the class), but it seems they meant living plants, but they can conjure wooden planks because it is the dead, processed form of a tree, same with arrows, clothes, and rope. But that's just my take on the whole thing.

Logically, I would agree with that, but why should they be able to conjure animals and not plants? Also, isn't a "dead" plant a "form" of plant life? (The Dead Form)

barna10 wrote:Ok, someone please explain why, under limitations of Animal Conjuring it states that the conjurer cannot conjure microscopic insects, ....NOR ANY TYPE OF PLANT LIFE. Yet, later on it says they can conjure a plank of wood, clothing, rope, etc.

An inanimate object made from the tissues of a once-living organism is still an inanimate object, as far as conjuring is concerned, although I'm not sure exactly why living plants can't be created in the first place. Maybe conjuring can't reproduce chloroplasts?

As to the insect thing, I think that's just an arbitrary game balance rule meant to prevent players from conjuring disease-spreading parasites.

Do you think that it might be an oversight of the writer. Perhaps...

Btw, Ive GM'd a conjurer in the PF setting with the rules as they are and we had no issues. Keeps you on your toes as GM I can tell you.

The Dark Elf wrote:Do you think that it might be an oversight of the writer. Perhaps...

Btw, Ive GM'd a conjurer in the PF setting with the rules as they are and we had no issues. Keeps you on your toes as GM I can tell you.

I think it's a logical fan questioning less logical writers.

The Dark Elf wrote:Do you think that it might be an oversight of the writer. Perhaps...

Btw, Ive GM'd a conjurer in the PF setting with the rules as they are and we had no issues. Keeps you on your toes as GM I can tell you.

I can see how a Conjurer would work in an SDC setting like PF without needing to revise any of the class rules. It just doesn't fit into a futuristic MDC setting like Rifts as anything more than an interesting curiosity.

I am about to run a game staring a Conjuror (see Between Disaster and Atrocity in my signature) but I had just assumed that you cannot create micro-organisms because that is too complex and small for the Conjuror to imagine and like plants were excluded because each one is a complex ecosystem and part of the natural environment and the conjuror's constructs (because really these guys are just the Palladium equivalent of Green Lantern) are not part of the natural world and are merely aspects of his imagination that he has temporarily given material form. Creating a tree would be like creating a battery that produces P.P.E. (not mechanically) but spiritually and that is not what they do. They create things that interact with the world... not the world we interact with.

Am I being clear or would you like a more in depth explanation?

Akashic Soldier wrote:I am about to run a game staring a Conjuror (see Between Disaster and Atrocity in my signature) but I had just assumed that you cannot create micro-organisms because that is too complex and small for the Conjuror to imagine and like plants were excluded because each one is a complex ecosystem and part of the natural environment and the conjuror's constructs (because really these guys are just the Palladium equivalent of Green Lantern) are not part of the natural world and are merely aspects of his imagination that he has temporarily given material form. Creating a tree would be like creating a battery that produces P.P.E. (not mechanically) but spiritually and that is not what they do. They create things that interact with the world... not the world we interact with.

Am I being clear or would you like a more in depth explanation?

Then why can they make animals?

barna10 wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I am about to run a game staring a Conjuror (see Between Disaster and Atrocity in my signature) but I had just assumed that you cannot create micro-organisms because that is too complex and small for the Conjuror to imagine and like plants were excluded because each one is a complex ecosystem and part of the natural environment and the conjuror's constructs (because really these guys are just the Palladium equivalent of Green Lantern) are not part of the natural world and are merely aspects of his imagination that he has temporarily given material form. Creating a tree would be like creating a battery that produces P.P.E. (not mechanically) but spiritually and that is not what they do. They create things that interact with the world... not the world we interact with.

Am I being clear or would you like a more in depth explanation?

Then why can they make animals?

Because animals (like us) are X factors to a biosystem. Biosystems can adapt to the presence of animals or insects, even become dependent on them but each animal or creature is its own little piece of P.P.E. walking around, living and breathing and thinking for itself where as objects and plants are just natural parts of the ambient P.P.E. saturating the world with no conscious manifestation.

A plant is like an antenna for P.P.E. (they cover this is kirlian photography a little). It gathers, stores and disperses energy as part of the environment because it is basically a "soul energy distribution machine" where animals and people are machines with their own soul. As for why they can create animals and not people, quite simply I imagine that if we were to give it an in game explanation it would be that a person can imagine how an animal would think or act to any given situation much more easily than he can imagine a person would. We have limited sapience and experience and it is beyond our ability to fully comprehend the complexities of the conscious mind and so neither can the Conjuror. Case in point, nothing is stopping them from snapping their fingers and making a skeleton or a corpse.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I am about to run a game staring a Conjuror (see Between Disaster and Atrocity in my signature) but I had just assumed that you cannot create micro-organisms because that is too complex and small for the Conjuror to imagine and like plants were excluded because each one is a complex ecosystem and part of the natural environment and the conjuror's constructs (because really these guys are just the Palladium equivalent of Green Lantern) are not part of the natural world and are merely aspects of his imagination that he has temporarily given material form. Creating a tree would be like creating a battery that produces P.P.E. (not mechanically) but spiritually and that is not what they do. They create things that interact with the world... not the world we interact with.

Am I being clear or would you like a more in depth explanation?

Then why can they make animals?

Because animals (like us) are X factors to a biosystem. Biosystems can adapt to the presence of animals or insects, even become dependent on them but each animal or creature is its own little piece of P.P.E. walking aro
und, living and breathing and thinking for itself where as objects and plants are just natural parts of the ambient P.P.E. saturating the world with no conscious manifestation.

A plant is like an antenna for P.P.E. (they cover this is kirlian photography a little). It gathers, stores and disperses energy as part of the environment because it is basically a "soul energy distribution machine" where animals and people are machines with their own soul. As for why they can create animals and not people, quite simply I imagine that if we were to give it an in game explanation it would be that a person can imagine how an animal would think or act to any given situation much more easily than he can imagine a person would. We have limited sapience and experience and it is beyond our ability to fully comprehend the complexities of the conscious mind and so neither can the Conjuror. Case in point, nothing is stopping them from snapping their fingers and making a skeleton or a corpse.

Sorry, no, but thanks for the input.

barna10 wrote:Sorry, no, but thanks for the input.

It helps if you know what potential psychic energy actually is instead of just thinking of it like spell points or mana. There were a few really good books written on the subject during the late 70's to the early 80's. I am sure you could find them or websites online if you looked around, its all tied into the magical energy of the soul... which what ley lines are and pretty much everything magic is based off on Rifts earth. Or you can just dismiss everything I am saying, either way.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

barna10 wrote:Sorry, no, but thanks for the input.

It helps if you know what potential psychic energy actually is instead of just thinking of it like spell points or mana. There were a few really good books written on the subject during the late 70's to the early 80's. I am sure you could find them or websites online if you looked around, its all tied into the magical energy of the soul... which what ley lines are and pretty much everything magic is based off on Rifts earth. Or you can just dismiss everything I am saying, either way.

I'm sure you've read some great stuff, really, but it's the logic of the argument I am dismissing, not your knowledge. Yes, animals are x-factors, great, but what about rocks? A conjurer can easily conjure a rock. Does a rock have P.P.E.? Is it a part of the biosystem?

Also, you said a Conjurer can create animals because he most likely identifies with them and can imagine how they think, but what if the conjurer is himself a plant, would he have trouble conjuring animals then? What if he is a rockman?

I counter your theoretical view of Potential Psychic Energy with the time tested science of logic.

The conjurer, as written, is illogical. The rulebook is not a tome of pseudo-scientific psychic lore, it is a rulebook for a game. Rules should be logical. Otherwise, why have rules? Saying the conjurer can't create plants with one breath and then saying they can create dead plants in another is not logical.

And then there is the question of Lichen. Can a conjurer conjure Lichen? It is both plant and animal.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

barna10 wrote:Sorry, no, but thanks for the input.

It helps if you know what potential psychic energy actually is instead of just thinking of it like spell points or mana. There were a few really good books written on the subject during the late 70's to the early 80's. I am sure you could find them or websites online if you looked around, its all tied into the magical energy of the soul... which what ley lines are and pretty much everything magic is based off on Rifts earth. Or you can just dismiss everything I am saying, either way.

Can you give me the title of these books. I did some research and can't find the term "potential psychic energy" being used anywhere but in Palladium games. So, unless the term "potential psychic energy" appears in these books, and there is some proof the Kevin and crew used the theories in these books as a basis for the Megaverse's meta-physics, I don't see what bearing the theories presented in these books has on game mechanics.

barna10 wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

barna10 wrote:Sorry, no, but thanks for the input.

It helps if you know what potential psychic energy actually is instead of just thinking of it like spell points or mana. There were a few really good books written on the subject during the late 70's to the early 80's. I am sure you could find them or websites online if you looked around, its all tied into the magical energy of the soul... which what ley lines are and pretty much everything magic is based off on Rifts earth. Or you can just dismiss everything I am saying, either way.

Can you give me the title of these books. I did some research and can't find the term "potential psychic energy" being used anywhere but in Palladium games. So, unless the term "potential psychic energy" appears in these books, and there is some proof the Kevin and crew used the theories in these books as a basis for the Megaverse's meta-physics, I don't see what bearing the theories presented in these books has on game mechanics.

Not without getting into my storage unit but if you do a bit of digging on the metaphysics of The Cult of Atlantis you should be able to find something. If you still can't than I CAN either mail you (or upload) a documentary about the cult. I'm not a member and the doco is full of nekkid blue 70's chicks with occult symbols painted all over them so if that kind of thing offends you just be warned those guys gave came up with the concept of "out there." Although I cannot know if that is what Kevin used for his inspiration since Potential Psychic Energy is constantly used and Atlantis was an early book I'd always just assumed.

In the meantime you can watch THIS if you like. I am not sure if it will mention it but knowing the source material should.

paxmiles wrote:Always got the feeling that they can't summon plant life because we ran out of space for the conjurer OCC. As a GM, I'd allow it until players found a way to exploit it enough to have me ban it. For costs, I'd go exact same as per the animals. I've also no objections to summoning insects, but again, I'd treat them as small animals in cost (1 insect per casting).

In all cases, plant, animal, and insect life should require an in-depth knowledge of how each one summoned functions in real life. This limits the conjurer by requiring skill checks about summoned creature in question. In turn, this allows the GM to prevent specific summons if they deem the skill check a failure (as normal for skill checks), which keeps the class balanced.
-Pax

What skill check would you require besides Biology?

Also, I've always thought the limitations in the Conjurer class were PURELY due to play balance. I can understand not allowing a Fantasy Conjurer to conjurer microscopic organisms and such since they have no knowledge of such things, but a Rifts Conjurer should not have this limitation. Also, Animals are MUCH more complex than either a gun or a plant, yet the Conjurer can somehow create animals with no problem (at first level) but needs to be like 4th level to make even a matchlock pistol! I'm pretty sure that the SIMPLEST life form is more complicated a machine with even 10 moving parts (the amount the conjurer can make at 15th level)

Can a conjurer create radioactive stuff... say plutonium or uranium? always wanted to maybe make some uranium and sell it for a crap load or drop it in a towns drinking water?

or make something highly unstable like einstienium?
I could see a GM saying no to something man made as to complex but if you can make steel or gun powder why not uranium...pure could be great uses there

Zamion138 wrote:Can a conjurer create radioactive stuff... say plutonium or uranium? always wanted to maybe make some uranium and sell it for a crap load or drop it in a towns drinking water?

or make something highly unstable like einstienium?
I could see a GM saying no to something man made as to complex but if you can make steel or gun powder why not uranium...pure could be great uses there

Even if they could, they would have to permanently lose PPE to make it permanent. They aren't allowed to make radioactive substances for the same reason they can't make viruses: some people think it would be unbalancing! Like making a knife and killing someone in 30 seconds is LESS unbalancing than making a virus that wouldn't be able to kill someone in the short duration (1 hour per level) that the conjurer can keep them alive, or possibly giving someone cancer! Also, do you really think a Conjurer is going to make a Nuke if you allow him to conjure Uranium?

yeah making uranium and building a nuke are two very diffrent things.

Zamion138 wrote:Can a conjurer create radioactive stuff... say plutonium or uranium? always wanted to maybe make some uranium and sell it for a crap load or drop it in a towns drinking water?

or make something highly unstable like einstienium?
I could see a GM saying no to something man made as to complex but if you can make steel or gun powder why not uranium...pure could be great uses there

I wouldn't have a problem with making radioactive substances. Even if conjured for only a very short duration, it doesn't take much exposure to plutonium to ruin your whole decade. There would, of course, be the danger of exposing yourself to the harmful effects of the substance and it could be abused in annoying ways that would make the game less fun.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:Can a conjurer create radioactive stuff... say plutonium or uranium? always wanted to maybe make some uranium and sell it for a crap load or drop it in a towns drinking water?

or make something highly unstable like einstienium?
I could see a GM saying no to something man made as to complex but if you can make steel or gun powder why not uranium...pure could be great uses there

I wouldn't have a problem with making radioactive substances. Even if conjured for only a very short duration, it doesn't take much exposure to plutonium to ruin your whole decade. There would, of course, be the danger of exposing yourself to the harmful effects of the substance and it could be abused in annoying ways that would make the game less fun.

True, but what's to stop a Conjurer from just buying some uranium and doing the same nasty things?

barna10 wrote:

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:Can a conjurer create radioactive stuff... say plutonium or uranium? always wanted to maybe make some uranium and sell it for a crap load or drop it in a towns drinking water?

or make something highly unstable like einstienium?
I could see a GM saying no to something man made as to complex but if you can make steel or gun powder why not uranium...pure could be great uses there

I wouldn't have a problem with making radioactive substances. Even if conjured for only a very short duration, it doesn't take much exposure to plutonium to ruin your whole decade. There would, of course, be the danger of exposing yourself to the harmful effects of the substance and it could be abused in annoying ways that would make the game less fun.

True, but what's to stop a Conjurer from just buying some uranium and doing the same nasty things?

Avalibility?
I honestly dont know where the heck in NA they get all this nuclear power with out importing fissionable matrial......maybe its just cheaper to get it from else where now but I always thought we were kinda lacking in uranium and such in America?

on the same token you could conjur so many nasty gases and crazy basic chemicals no more complicated than gun powder that do alot more destruction. if say you made 5 pounds of pure cyinide, .....if you can make wood you should be able to make organic posions and such too.

8 pounds of hydrogen and 8 pounds of oxygen in a small space doesnt have to be around for long to do what you need it to do.

I dont even know what you can do with francium but i want to make some now........ just look at this list of basic elements and think of what you can do. http://www.chemicool.com/

The real question is why can't the Conjuror create a credit card (card with credits on it) with 47,000,000,0000 cr. on it?

The short answer is look at the bird on his shoulder in the picture. They're P.P.E. constructs people who look at them are likely going to be able to instantly recognize they are magical constructs. This is not canon and is not mentioned, there is nothing saying that he cannot create a 17,000,000 cr, diamond (that lasts hours per level and looks real) but I think that the picture and the fact that they start with the Fool's Gold spell implies that their natural conjuring ability is obviously magical.

Again, I very much see the Conjurers as the Green Lanterns of Rifts Earth.

To answer an earlier question about radio active substances...

BUCKET FULL OF LAVA! *poof*

AND NOW!!!

LAVA TO THE FACE!

Or my personal favorite.... (though you have to be rather high level for this one, like 6th)

GIANT MICROWAVE!

*grapple, throws them in, hits the on button*

YAY, ITS CANCER TIME! Geez... I hope this guy doesn't turn into the Hulk or something.

You need reasons for people to pic conjurers,What do they do better the a standerd Ley line walker?

Well for Me I say let them have all create spell and téléport spells at half Ppe cost.

they need to have some type of advantage or ther useless.

gaby wrote:You need reasons for people to pic conjurers,What do they do better the a standerd Ley line walker?

Well for Me I say let them have all create spell and téléport spells at half Ppe cost.

they need to have some type of advantage or ther useless.

I may be going out on a limb here, but the ability to create effectively anything is the reason to pick them. I don't know what you are looking at on the LLW to make it comparable to the Conjuror, but they are two completely different entities. The LLW is more of a standard "build it yourself" magic class, much like the mind melter for psionics. He can learn it all, but he really isn't quite the master of any.

While on the other hand you have the Conjuror, much like the Burster in our little psionic demonstration, he/she is a particular master in creating things out of thin air and has specialized in that field of magic.

The Burster doesn't get less ISP costs to his powers, nor does he really get extra powers over that of the Mind Melter, what happens is his Pyrokinetic abilities far outstrip that of the Mind Melter.

That is the same idea here between the LLW and the Conjuror.

And where do you get teleport spells from the name "Conjuror"? To conjure something is to make or create something. A Conjuror is one who makes / creates. I mean, I get that names don't mean a lot in Rifts or PF, but there is a level of necessity here.

Akashic Soldier wrote:do a bit of digging on the metaphysics of The Cult of Atlantis you should be able to find something. a documentary about the cult is full of nekkid blue 70's chicks with occult symbols painted all over them

I cannot know if that is what Kevin used for his inspiration since Potential Psychic Energy is constantly used and Atlantis was an early book I'd always just assumed. In the meantime you can watch THIS if you like. I am not sure if it will mention it but knowing the source material should.

Sounds cool, so checking this out. Blue chicks reminds me of Zer/Tekla from Shadow Raiders. Tekla also reminded me of the Machine People from Phase World. Perhaps "Planet Tech" is an imaginable future for them. If anyone could build World Engines it'd be those guys.