New Navy/ Tritonia Questions

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Mon May 21, 2012 7:33 pm

Now that Lemuria has fleshed out some of the Underseas of Rifts, some of the questions left from WB:7 should be answered. Not to mention that Chaos Earth (and 16 years) has shown some of what the U.S. military could have had available.

Where are the two New Navy cities/bases? My vote would be underground on Guam with access under the water to hidden docks and one of the Hawain islands.

We know the New Navy has Chromium Guardsmen. Can they produce more? Can they repair the ones they have armor or do they trade with communities in South America through Tritonia for spare parts?

Do they also have SAM technology? The Semper-Fi looks like a variant SAMAS after all. What about drone aircraft? Or robot soldiers like NEMA?

How much tech do they share with Tritonia? Can they dock the Ticonderoga there and have significant repairs done?

Do they recruit from the floating island? Or anywhere else for that matter? Polynesia, American Samoa, and the west coast seem viable.

How much trade does Tritonia have with South America, Australia, and Japan? Just random small time merchants and pirates or something more significant now that the timeline has jumped to 109 P. A.

Maybe we could get a Rifter artcile going to flesh out some of this?

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Mon May 21, 2012 7:42 pm

Seneca wrote:Now that Lemuria has fleshed out some of the Underseas of Rifts, some of the questions left from WB:6 should be answered. Not to mention that Chaos Earth (and 16 years) has shown some of what the U.S. military could have had available.

Where are the two New Navy cities/bases? My vote would be underground on Guam with access under the water to hidden docks and one of the Hawain islands.

We know the New Navy has Chromium Guardsmen. Can they produce more? Can they repair the ones they have armor or do they trade with communities in South America through Tritonia for spare parts?

Do they also have SAM technology? The Semper-Fi looks like a variant SAMAS after all. What about drone aircraft? Or robot soldiers like NEMA?

How much tech do they share with Tritonia? Can they dock the Ticonderoga there and have significant repairs done?

Do they recruit from the floating island? Or anywhere else for that matter? Polynesia, American Samoa, and the west coast seem viable.

How much trade does Tritonia have with South America, Australia, and Japan? Just random small time merchants and pirates or something more significant now that the timeline has jumped to 109 P. A.

Maybe we could get a Rifter artcile going to flesh out some of this?

So what are the unanswered questions from Rifts: South America?

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Mon May 21, 2012 7:54 pm

I'd say they do have the ability to produce SAMAS-style power armors...a combined air/sea unit makes perfect sense for Marines, and the New Navy would be in trouble if they didn't have the means to replace their losses.
Similarly, I can see them producing their own Glitterboys, albeit at a much slower rate due to the expense of fabricating the Glitterchrome armor...this might be a strong incentive for greater relations with the Republic of Japan, which could supply their needs(New Navy variant Glitterboy anyone?). The New Navy SHOULD have a very sophisticated logistics capability; they have to repair a giant stealth submarine, produce nuclear subs and amphibious fighters, and keep their troops supplied in high-tech ammunition and gear after all.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon May 21, 2012 8:18 pm

taalismn wrote:I'd say they do have the ability to produce SAMAS-style power armors...a combined air/sea unit makes perfect sense for Marines, and the New Navy would be in trouble if they didn't have the means to replace their losses.
Similarly, I can see them producing their own Glitterboys, albeit at a much slower rate due to the expense of fabricating the Glitterchrome armor...this might be a strong incentive for greater relations with the Republic of Japan, which could supply their needs(New Navy variant Glitterboy anyone?). The New Navy SHOULD have a very sophisticated logistics capability; they have to repair a giant stealth submarine, produce nuclear subs and amphibious fighters, and keep their troops supplied in high-tech ammunition and gear after all.

I would say it is highly likely they have the full range of NEMA gear available to them or at the minimum the capability to manufacture said gear. After 300 years I would also guess they have been able to probably stockpile enough to replace losses and not really need to trade with Japan per se for military hardware.

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Mon May 21, 2012 8:24 pm

So what are the unanswered questions from Rifts: South America?

Sorry WB:7. :lol:

taalismn wrote:I'd say they do have the ability to produce SAMAS-style power armors...a combined air/sea unit makes perfect sense for Marines, and the New Navy would be in trouble if they didn't have the means to replace their losses.
Similarly, I can see them producing their own Glitterboys, albeit at a much slower rate due to the expense of fabricating the Glitterchrome armor...this might be a strong incentive for greater relations with the Republic of Japan, which could supply their needs(New Navy variant Glitterboy anyone?). The New Navy SHOULD have a very sophisticated logistics capability; they have to repair a giant stealth submarine, produce nuclear subs and amphibious fighters, and keep their troops supplied in high-tech ammunition and gear after all.

Yes the New Navy can and should be able to repair and build their own ships at their two bases. Maybe even jury rig some minor repairs at sea. But if they're pulled into battle away from their bases, would they share their technology with Tritonia so that the superior manufactering capabilities of the floating city could be used as a friendly shipyard? I could almost see Tritonia giving, or at the least a very favorable lease, a sizable docking area to the New Navy.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Mon May 21, 2012 8:42 pm

Seneca wrote:[
Yes the New Navy can and should be able to repair and build their own ships at their two bases. Maybe even jury rig some minor repairs at sea. But if they're pulled into battle away from their bases, would they share their technology with Tritonia so that the superior manufactering capabilities of the floating city could be used as a friendly shipyard? I could almost see Tritonia giving, or at the least a very favorable lease, a sizable docking area to the New Navy.

At the very least, such a dedicated dock would have stockpiles of those technologies hard, if not impossible, for Tritonia to replicate(but which aren;t so sensitive that the New Navy needs to guard them and fly them to a location to install).
Personally, I think that dedicated mobile docks and repair tenders are among the missing vessels in the New Navy TOE.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon May 21, 2012 8:51 pm

taalismn wrote:
Seneca wrote:[
Yes the New Navy can and should be able to repair and build their own ships at their two bases. Maybe even jury rig some minor repairs at sea. But if they're pulled into battle away from their bases, would they share their technology with Tritonia so that the superior manufactering capabilities of the floating city could be used as a friendly shipyard? I could almost see Tritonia giving, or at the least a very favorable lease, a sizable docking area to the New Navy.

At the very least, such a dedicated dock would have stockpiles of those technologies hard, if not impossible, for Tritonia to replicate(but which aren;t so sensitive that the New Navy needs to guard them and fly them to a location to install).
Personally, I think that dedicated mobile docks and repair tenders are among the missing vessels in the New Navy TOE.

agreed

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Mon May 21, 2012 9:25 pm

Here is another question. How does the New Navy treat mages/psionics? It says in WB:32 that they are friendly with Lemurians, does that open the ranks of the navy to magic users then?

Also after looking over the notes on the Ticonderoga I noticed that it is stated out to be 2000 feet long.... That makes the ship almost a third of the size of Tritonia itself (Tritonia is 1.6 square miles). So I was thinking that over the last decade of Rifts time Tritonia should have expanded. A 6 section docking ring around the main city is what I was thinking.

Two sections for transient merchants. Mainly so that those from warring factions, like the Silver River Republics in South America or Otamo and Takamatsu on Japan, can be kept seperate for security purposes.

Two sections for the New Navy so that they could dock the Ticonderoga and have security of their own while on "shore leave".

One section for the Naut'Yll. Not a ghetto, but a place to keep them under survellience.

One section as a pirate's port..... I can see the more undersirable merchants and groups like the Horune using this to trade with Tritonia. Maybe the Horune are forced to keep their Dream Ships away, so they dock at nearby islands and take smaller human craft into port and let D-bee and human facemen do the talking for them.

Thoughts?

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Mon May 21, 2012 10:00 pm

Kinda figured that Tritonia looked sorta like this(after The MIllenium Project*):
http://hex.alife.co.uk/ocean_reclamation/graphics/hex_city_1.jpg

*I've used the book(a New Age 'road map' book that lays out a plan from floating cities to galactic restructuring) as a sort of background story for the development of Tritonia along similar lines,

Hexagonal modules that can be swapped around and reconfigured.

Image doesn't show the surrounding artificial breakwater.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon May 21, 2012 10:27 pm

taalismn wrote:Kinda figured that Tritonia looked sorta like this(after The MIllenium Project*):
http://hex.alife.co.uk/ocean_reclamation/graphics/hex_city_1.jpg

*I've used the book(a New Age 'road map' book that lays out a plan from floating cities to galactic restructuring) as a sort of background story for the development of Tritonia along similar lines,

Hexagonal modules that can be swapped around and reconfigured.

Image doesn't show the surrounding artificial breakwater.

Nice

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Mon May 21, 2012 11:36 pm

Full discussion of the design elements: http://hex.alife.co.uk/ocean_reclamation/

The book, "The Millennial Project", proposed a floating city, Aquarius, as a first step towards creating populations of humans acclimated to living in limited space, dependent on technology and cooperation, habituating them and their descendants to living in orbital habitats. Of course, it was all very sunny and optimistic and filled full of people floating around effortlessly in water or zero-gee, but I could see some similarities to Tritonia.

It's possible that during the sunny days of the pre-Rifts Golden Age, pragmatic industry, idealistic free enterprise, and the better educated(and Global Internet commerce-empowered/enriched)New Age fringe could have combined forces to build Tritonia for just such purposes.

As for the New Navy and psionics? I imagine they have a 'waste not want not' policy; you have psionics, you get extra attention from the recruiters. They expect full disclosure and you better pony up, because if some loyal psych-sniffer catches you using your secret powers to short your fellow Navy, you get hit hard. Having psionics in the New Navy is a mixed blessing; on one hand you get extra attention from security and the ship's shrink, and not everybody trusts you(and you likely know it), but when a situation gets bad, you can be expected to be called upon, depending on your particular powers. That can mean anything from being a consultant to being 'volunteered' for a suicide mission. The New Navy pays extra benefits for psionics, and there's compensation to your family, but you work for the combat pay.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon May 21, 2012 11:38 pm

I'd think psionics aren't looked upon all that badly since the greatest of them (Sea-Titans) have a pretty good chance of having them.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue May 22, 2012 1:38 am

There is a New Navy book being written. I forget exactly who's doing it, but it came out when Lemuria was getting close. I'd asked how much New Navy stuff was in lemuria and got the answer "none, but I (( who ever it was)) is working on a New Navy book to take care of all that"

So there's one in the pipe. It's not 'next' or anything, it's 4 or 5 down the line, but it is being done.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Tue May 22, 2012 9:41 am

Seneca wrote:Now that Lemuria has fleshed out some of the Underseas of Rifts, some of the questions left from WB:7 should be answered. Not to mention that Chaos Earth (and 16 years) has shown some of what the U.S. military could have had available.

Chaos Earth shows what the NEMA had available, not the US Military. There is a difference. The NEMA was to defend North America and employed citizens from three countries. Each country still had its individual military as well (Rifts Canada stated Canada never made their own MD weapons, so I suspect Canada relied on the NEMA exclusively for their defense). For example, the NEMA used the Silver Eagle as their SAMAS suit, where as the US Air Force used the USA SAMAS described in Spirit West.

We know the New Navy has Chromium Guardsmen. Can they produce more? Can they repair the ones they have armor or do they trade with communities in South America through Tritonia for spare parts?

We know the New Navy has Glitter Boys (emphasis being they are being called the Rifts version of the name, not the Chaos Earth version of the name). Therefore, I suspect they picked them up over the past 300 years and employed them as familiar technology. There is no mention they had them prior to the Great Cataclysm. I doubt they can produce more. I see no reason why they wouldnt know what a Chromium Guardsman/Glitter Boy would be though. They have to have some sort of data on them, be it capabilities guides or operations manuals at the very least. Hopefully the New Navy book will clarify.

Do they also have SAM technology? The Semper-Fi looks like a variant SAMAS after all. What about drone aircraft? Or robot soldiers like NEMA?

We know there were 7 variants of SAMs produced (ref: either Spirit West or New West) to include the USA SAMAS (used by the Air Force), Wild Weasel, and Sidewinder variants (another was described in a Rifter, but it is not canon). The Silver Eagle may have been a fourth of the seven. That still leaves 3 variants unmentioned. It is possible that one was a naval variant and would not be out of the scope of reasoning. However, as of Rifts Underseas, the New Navy do not have any more. Personally, I think they would have the technology and should have a technical and operational understanding of it. I think the authors of Palladium excluded it from Rifts Underseas because they were waiting for the big surprise in the next book (Rifts Japan) to reveal the SAMAS was not Coalition technology, rather pre-Rifts technology. Perhaps the New Navy book will have them re-unlock the technology. Like they were unable to produce their version of the SAMAS between the Great Cataclysm and 105 PA, losing all their remaining units in that 300 years. But lately, were able to start production again by 109 PA.

I have yet to see anything that stated the US Military used Skelebot-like technology. We know the NEMA used it though and seeing they operated side by side in the Golden Age of Man, I dont see why the New Navy wouldnt have a working technical and operational knowledge of the technology. Seeing they are pretty limited in manpower, drones would be an awesome capability for them, provided they can produce them.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Tue May 22, 2012 10:41 am

We know the New Navy has Glitter Boys (emphasis being they are being called the Rifts version of the name, not the Chaos Earth version of the name).

I don't know when your book was printed by my Chaos Earth book was printed several years AFTER Underseas.
Would be a little hard for the authors of underseas to know the name 'Chromium Guardsman' then don't you think.

With the New Navy sticking away from the land the last 300 years how do you suppose they found a platoon worth of Glitter boys in prime shape.
If they could salvage them from a Marine base then it's just easy for them as the most powerful ship on planet at the time to have had a platoon assigned to their Marines.
It makes perfect tactical sense for them to have had a platoon of these walking tanks to go along with the rest of the Marine contingent.

Those factories were made to allow the sub to stay at sea and undetected, this means those factories were the prime candidate for making a limited amount of suits be it whole or in parts.

The same goes for the any versions of the SAMAS be they Naval or Marine assets, the factories would be able to replace them or the it renders the whole string of automated factories to keep the sub at sea and undetected pretty useless.

As for the skelebot technology being used by the military, reread the very first sentence of the Combat drone soldier in Chaos earth.
The militaries had them FIRST.

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Tue May 22, 2012 1:11 pm

I doubt that the New Navy has the ability to manufacture any and all NEMA gear. Does your average naval facility have the ability to manufacture an M-1A1 tank? Or an F-18 super hornet?

Obviously that have some manufacturing capabilities, even some advanced ones. That said, since I'd assume most/all gear was manufacturered originally by a corporation, I doubt that the New Navy just had the specs for all NEMA gear laying around. They certainly had some of it, especially as it pretained to things like naval vessels. For things like aircraft and equipment used, they probably have fairly detailed specs that they could tweak/reverse engineer both specs and equipment samples to put copies in to production.

For equipment they never possessed it is unlikely they'd be able to make copies of it as they both wouldn't have the equipment to copy and they likely wouldn't have specs laying around.

A detailed maintenance and repair manual of some power armor is only going to get you so far if you don't also have some samples of the power armor to make copies of. Just like Glitterchrome armor, just because they have samples and have shop manuals doesn't mean they are going to be able to reproduce the armor itself (unlikely). Now for a jet fighter, they might be able to as the manuals are going to be pretty detailed, the shop equipment combined with tearing down examples likely would allow them to reverse engineer most of it so long as there wasn't anything particular exotic or "Black box", though they could probably innovate around it for a replacement, even if the replacement wasn't up to spec. Same thing with the ships.

So I'd say they can produce anything that wasn't particularly exotic at the time (IE probably not Glitterchrome armor. Do you think the average army base today, with the equipment on hand, even with raw materials supplied, would be able to churn out M1A1 tanks with real Chobam armor? Probably not). Also they can only produce equipment, armor, weapons, PA and vehicles that they were likely to have had at the time. If their Semper Fi PA was the only PA they had in the Marine contingent, than they likely could not have produced anything else. There might be visual copies of other PA and it might even be somewhat similar, but it is not going to be all that much like the actual other suit of NEMA PA.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Tue May 22, 2012 2:37 pm

That entire post is absolutely meaningless to the subject, you know that.

List one underwater naval facility that has automated factories for it's submersible aircraft carrier/troopship?
List one under water naval facility made for submersible aircraft carrier/troopship so they don't have to return to port to replenish.
List one just one facility like the New Navy

Why modern facilities that have no basis what so ever are even being brought up when the New Navy has automated factories built for it for that express purpose is mind boggling.
Did you even read the book?
You might as well said something stupid like then why hasn't NASA built a glitter boy factory on the moon yet. :lol:

While your at it you might look into we don't make Chobham armor and haven't for over a decade.
If your going to use an example at least keep it up to date.

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 pm

Kagashi wrote: Chaos Earth shows what the NEMA had available, not the US Military. There is a difference. The NEMA was to defend North America and employed citizens from three countries. Each country still had its individual military as well (Rifts Canada stated Canada never made their own MD weapons, so I suspect Canada relied on the NEMA exclusively for their defense). For example, the NEMA used the Silver Eagle as their SAMAS suit, where as the US Air Force used the USA SAMAS described in Spirit West.

We know there were 7 variants of SAMs produced (ref: either Spirit West or New West) to include the USA SAMAS (used by the Air Force), Wild Weasel, and Sidewinder variants (another was described in a Rifter, but it is not canon). The Silver Eagle may have been a fourth of the seven. That still leaves 3 variants unmentioned. It is possible that one was a naval variant and would not be out of the scope of reasoning. However, as of Rifts Underseas, the New Navy do not have any more. Personally, I think they would have the technology and should have a technical and operational understanding of it. I think the authors of Palladium excluded it from Rifts Underseas because they were waiting for the big surprise in the next book (Rifts Japan) to reveal the SAMAS was not Coalition technology, rather pre-Rifts technology. Perhaps the New Navy book will have them re-unlock the technology. Like they were unable to produce their version of the SAMAS between the Great Cataclysm and 105 PA, losing all their remaining units in that 300 years. But lately, were able to start production again by 109 PA.

True. But all of NEMA's tech was co-developed with the U.S. military. Baring anything written in Chaos Earth to be experimental I would give the New Navy NEMA's entire arsenal. Including the upped body armor in Chaos Earth compared to Underseas.

As to NEMA having a chrome SAM, plausibly lasers could have been the most common M.D. weaponry available in the pre-cataclysm so having chrome alloy SAMAS might have made sense for NEMA. The Spirit West SAM or US-104A seems to be just the kind of PA the New Navy lacks. Paint it light blue and slap the Navy symbol on it and if you want give it the stealth system from the Sea Hawk and there you go. There are numerous joint Naval/Air force bases in the Pacific. Guam comes to mind once again where they could have re-discovered or had automated factories for repairs/maintence of just such a PA.

Kagashi wrote: We know the New Navy has Glitter Boys (emphasis being they are being called the Rifts version of the name, not the Chaos Earth version of the name). Therefore, I suspect they picked them up over the past 300 years and employed them as familiar technology. There is no mention they had them prior to the Great Cataclysm. I doubt they can produce more. I see no reason why they wouldnt know what a Chromium Guardsman/Glitter Boy would be though. They have to have some sort of data on them, be it capabilities guides or operations manuals at the very least. Hopefully the New Navy book will clarify.

As was said there is sixteen years worth of new material since WB:7 and now. And while I agree some Glitterboys could have been salvaged from the coastal cities NEMA bases and military instalations that might have sank into the ocean (California?) I beleive the Chromium Guardsman has been stated in cannon to be one of the most commonly avaiable PA to the US armed forces. (see Rifts Japan)

Kagashi wrote: I have yet to see anything that stated the US Military used Skelebot-like technology. We know the NEMA used it though and seeing they operated side by side in the Golden Age of Man, I dont see why the New Navy wouldnt have a working technical and operational knowledge of the technology. Seeing they are pretty limited in manpower, drones would be an awesome capability for them, provided they can produce them.

Gamer wrote: As for the skelebot technology being used by the military, reread the very first sentence of the Combat drone soldier in Chaos earth.
The militaries had them FIRST.

True. And we know the use of drone aircraft is common today. It was not common in 1993. :lol:

So i would give the New Navy arial drones like the CS Navy has in their SB. After all it does say in Underseas that the New Navy is on par with the CS in the areas of power armor, robotics, and manufacturing.

glitterboy2098 · Tue May 22, 2012 9:54 pm

NEMA basically just got all the cool toys before the main branches of the respective NAA militaries did. thus why NEMA had a fancy SAMAS in use while the US Airforce's simpler version was still classified at the prototype stage. (based on fluff from RB, RUE, CE, WB14, and WB15.)

the US marines share a lot of hardware with the US army, so i can beleive the Marines having USA-G10 suits deployed, though perhaps only a few elite units at the time of the cataclysm.
IMO the new Navy would have to have the ability to make more of the suits.. after all they'd have to be able to maintain and repair the ones they have.
what they might not be able to do is build them in any kind of decent speed. a USA-G10 is a major investment of resources, with most of it apparently involving the fancy armor. what i would love to see is a Non-Chrome variant of the USA-G10. while dropping to regular MDC armor would basically drop the protection anywhere from a third (based on the NEMA SAMAS) or possibly up to half.
but that would still leave a suit as tough as a CS or NGR 'heavy PA', and it would still have access to the extremely powerful RG-14 "boomgun", which would give marine units access to a compact mobile gun system. maybe toss on a few new navy Ion guns to the arms for self defense and make it more amphibious too.

in terms of drones and such, i'd rather see the New Navy exploring non-humanoid designs. the canine like NEMA bots would still be useful, just make them more "Marine" style.. i'd imagine that artificial fish, seals, and birds would all be options as well. birds especially, since UAV's that can pass as seagulls or similar could offer great recon potential..

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Tue May 22, 2012 10:13 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:NEMA basically just got all the cool toys before the main branches of the respective NAA militaries did. thus why NEMA had a fancy SAMAS in use while the US Airforce's simpler version was still classified at the prototype stage. (based on fluff from RB, RUE, CE, WB14, and WB15.)

the US marines share a lot of hardware with the US army, so i can beleive the Marines having USA-G10 suits deployed, though perhaps only a few elite units at the time of the cataclysm.
IMO the new Navy would have to have the ability to make more of the suits.. after all they'd have to be able to maintain and repair the ones they have.
what they might not be able to do is build them in any kind of decent speed. a USA-G10 is a major investment of resources, with most of it apparently involving the fancy armor. what i would love to see is a Non-Chrome variant of the USA-G10. while dropping to regular MDC armor would basically drop the protection anywhere from a third (based on the NEMA SAMAS) or possibly up to half.
but that would still leave a suit as tough as a CS or NGR 'heavy PA', and it would still have access to the extremely powerful RG-14 "boomgun", which would give marine units access to a compact mobile gun system. maybe toss on a few new navy Ion guns to the arms for self defense and make it more amphibious too.

in terms of drones and such, i'd rather see the New Navy exploring non-humanoid designs. the canine like NEMA bots would still be useful, just make them more "Marine" style.. i'd imagine that artificial fish, seals, and birds would all be options as well. birds especially, since UAV's that can pass as seagulls or similar could offer great recon potential..

From looking at Free Quebec I always got the impression that the nuclear power supply not the chrome armor was the most difficult investment. They had thousands of stockpiled units that they promptly put online as soon as they outsourced the power supplies to Triax.

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Tue May 22, 2012 10:44 pm

Nightmask wrote: From looking at Free Quebec I always got the impression that the nuclear power supply not the chrome armor was the most difficult investment. They had thousands of stockpiled units that they promptly put online as soon as they outsourced the power supplies to Triax.

Maybe but Free Quebec is the only North American nation to have the capability to manufacture the chrome alloy. Something no one else has been able to reverse engineer. Even Triax could not do it before FQ gave them the technology.

Glitterboy2098 wrote: what they might not be able to do is build them in any kind of decent speed. a USA-G10 is a major investment of resources, with most of it apparently involving the fancy armor. what i would love to see is a Non-Chrome variant of the USA-G10. while dropping to regular MDC armor would basically drop the protection anywhere from a third (based on the NEMA SAMAS) or possibly up to half.
but that would still leave a suit as tough as a CS or NGR 'heavy PA', and it would still have access to the extremely powerful RG-14 "boomgun", which would give marine units access to a compact mobile gun system. maybe toss on a few new navy Ion guns to the arms for self defense and make it more amphibious too.

I was thinking on this point myself. A USA-G10 Nautical variation. As good as the original GB is underwater theuse of the boom gun has a host of problems. The silt on the ocean floor is to soft to anchor into and the sonic boom would announce the GB's presence a couple of miles away underwater. Not to mention no Captain would want a GB popping holes in his deck or even worse the hull of the ship.

What about swapping the boom gun for a heavy blue green laser, magnetic boots to hitch rides on other ships hulls, and a deep sea aqua jet pack?

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Tue May 22, 2012 10:52 pm

Seneca wrote:[

What about swapping the boom gun for a heavy blue green laser and magnetic boots?

Look no farther than Rifts Japan; the Glitterboy BiLar Laser cannons.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Tue May 22, 2012 10:53 pm

Seneca wrote:
Nightmask wrote:From looking at Free Quebec I always got the impression that the nuclear power supply not the chrome armor was the most difficult investment. They had thousands of stockpiled units that they promptly put online as soon as they outsourced the power supplies to Triax.

Maybe but Free Quebec is the only North American nation to have the capability to manufacture the chrome alloy. Something no one else has been able to reverse engineer. Even Triax could not do it before FQ gave them the technology.

Yes and given Free Quebec can make both the chrome and the power supply and the part that's most difficult isn't the chrome that would seem to mean the most difficult resource investment is the power supply not the chrome. The chrome is unique but apparently no more difficult than any other armor to make when you know how.

glitterboy2098 · Tue May 22, 2012 11:13 pm

note that i said "resource intensive", not "difficult". if making the chrome armor didn't use up a lot of resources, we'd see it used in a lot more units. FQ and the NGR would have been making chrome armor everything, because it's just that good of armor. we know from the books that making GB's takes a lot of resources. as in raw material. and there isn't much else in a GB that should use up so much 'stuff'. the suit's frame and motors and electronics and power supply and frankly even its weapon* are all fairly standard technologies. the only thing seperating the building of a glitterboy from any other suit of powered armor of the same size is pretty much just the armor.. it's protected with special armor that is basically twice as good as most other suits it's size.
*the boomgun just seems to be a peice of equipment that has enough fiddly bits to make it difficult to copy without a set of plans to work with..given its a coilgun and fires a shotgun sabot of fletchettes instead of the stream of projectiles most other railguns use, not surprising. that said, the technologies used in it are fairly standard..

we know from Triax2 that rifts armor is made from metals and ceramics formed in such a way as to make them extremely dense. we also know from the same source that the chrome armor of a glitterboy is a special formula that is even denser and has some extra ingredients that give it its mirror shine anti-laser property.

so it's not hard to assume that glitterboy chrome just uses way more 'stuff' than regular armor.

the FQ inability to provide sufficent nuclear power supplies was just a case of FQ not being able to keep up with the production of GB suits. which is basically what the worldbook says. they can definately produce nuclear powerpacks. they can supply their SAMAS's and robots and such no problem. it's just that supplying several thousand glitterboys, being churned out by an automated factory, was beyond their ability to do and still supply the rest of their military. after all, Uranium and Plutonium is not exactly common as dirt. even in quebec.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Tue May 22, 2012 11:18 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:note that i said "resource intensive", not "difficult". if making the chrome armor didn't use up a lot of resources, we'd see it used in a lot more units. FQ and the NGR would have been making chrome armor everything, because it's just that good of armor. we know from the books that making GB's takes a lot of resources. as in raw material. and there isn't much else in a GB that should use up so much 'stuff'. the suit's frame and motors and electronics and power supply and frankly even its weapon* are all fairly standard technologies. the only thing seperating the building of a glitterboy from any other suit of powered armor of the same size is pretty much just the armor.. it's protected with special armor that is basically twice as good as most other suits it's size.

we know from Triax2 that rifts armor is made from metals and ceramics formed in such a way as to make them extremely dense. we also know from the same source that the chrome armor of a glitterboy is a special formula that is even denser and has some extra ingredients that give it its mirror shine anti-laser property.

so it's not hard to assume that glitterboy chrome just uses way more 'stuff' than regular armor.

the FQ inability to provide sufficent nuclear power supplies was just a case of FQ not being able to keep up with the production of GB suits. which is basically what the worldbook says. they can definately produce nuclear powerpacks. they can supply their SAMAS's and robots and such no problem. it's just that supplying several thousand glitterboys, being churned out by an automated factory, was beyond their ability to do and still supply the rest of their military. after all, Uranium and Plutonium is not exactly common as dirt.

I'm not seeing how you're arriving at the armor being the most intensive resource item in the face of that, when the item that was most difficult to produce was the power supply and not the armor. Even what you says shows that they were easily producing the armor portion not the power supply section. Of which at no point did I state that they couldn't make them only that they had to outsource them to make up the shortfall to get their mothballed armors online.

glitterboy2098 · Tue May 22, 2012 11:32 pm

here's the thing. the amount of resources required to make something does not equal the difficulty of the thing. what i'm saying is that the armor uses a lot of stuff. stuff that could be used to make far more other things. if making one ton of glitter-chrome uses the same amount of raw materials as two tons of regular armor, you have to weigh the ability to armor twice as many units against the ability to make one smaller group of units twice as tough. this is why you don't see Chrome armored giant robots, IMO. to armor even something as small as a UAR-1, you'd probably have to use enough armor material to build a squad of glitterboys.

it's the same kind of issue that you see with tank armor today. Chobam armor is so good at stopping attacks, that you'd think that they'd want to put it on everything. Chobam is fairly simple to make compared to many of the alternatives that get used, but Chobam uses materials that are not as common, so they can only make so much of it a year, since the supply of some of the raw materials is limited. but the other, usually more difficult to make armor, uses more common materials, so it gets used, despite not being as good.

with FQ, the worldbook indicates their supply of resources to make GB-chrome was high..but their supply of resources to make the power supplies was not as high. its like having lots of aluminum to make cars out of, but not enough steel to make enough engine blocks for all of them. the relative complexities of the parts don't matter, it boils down to how much 'stuff' you have to make each item.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Wed May 23, 2012 12:37 am

I was thinking on this point myself. A USA-G10 Nautical variation. As good as the original GB is underwater theuse of the boom gun has a host of problems. The silt on the ocean floor is to soft to anchor into and the sonic boom would announce the GB's presence a couple of miles away underwater. Not to mention no Captain would want a GB popping holes in his deck or even worse the hull of the ship

Why even bother firing the thing underwater.
If the glitter boy contingent is firing, they already know where you are.
Don't need to worry about holes, the ship would already have prepared positions.

A non chromium armored suit would be most excellent. :ok:

But I would leave it as a Marine shore assault unit and forget about underwater use as primary.
A 40 GB broadside would be cool to see, not so cool to hear though.

The Air Force SAMAS was not in the prototype stage, WB8 the Japanese SAMAS mentions a video Tarn watched and it saying the SAMAS was designed for police agencies and it being gray or silver with an American flag on the helmet and chest, so it wasn't a NEMA field unit and it wasn't of chromium and was one of three beta test units.
I would bank on those beta test units were the proof of concept units and you wouldn't waste strategic material like chromium armor on a proof of concept unit.
I'll go out out on a limb and say the SAMAS was operational in the military for some time.
The reason behind it is the area 51 suits had the Sidewinder SAMAS called the 'advanced series II' which would mean the wild weasel would likely be the advanced series I, leaving the WB 15 spirit west SAMAS as the Standard series SAMAS, which is also the same type Tarn saw on video disk.
That factory was also on a military base and also automated, fully stockpiled ready to go- There also seems to be a pattern with the military and automated factories with stockpiled materials.
The NEMA type SAMAS would been an entirely new series all together probably ear marked for NEMA alone and the less material intensive designs going to the military.
There's probably some holes in there but that's what I came up with going off the books.

glitterboy2098 · Wed May 23, 2012 12:48 am

Gamer wrote:The Air Force SAMAS was not in the prototype stage, WB8 the Japanese SAMAS mentions a video Tarn watched and it saying the SAMAS was designed for police agencies and it being gray or silver with an American flag on the helmet and chest, so it wasn't a NEMA field unit and it wasn't of chromium and was one of three beta test units.
I would bank on those beta test units were the proof of concept units and you wouldn't waste strategic material like chromium armor on a proof of concept unit.

WB15 has a PA-06 SAMAS developed by the airforce and listed as never getting deployed past prototype stage. the same book has it being made in an automated factory held by the Apaches, so apparently the Airforce was working on getting it deployed.
WB14 also states the Airforce developed the SAMAS, and introduces other prototype models they were developing.

japan did introduce it as a police suit.. but considering that the airforce doesn't usually do ground troop missions (the SAMAS really should be an ARMY suit..except it's fixed wing, not rotary.), but those they do tend to be things like Search and Rescue, Military Police, and Foreward air controller.. the first and last don't really need a powered armor, the 2nd could definately make use of a highly mobile well armed and armored unit..

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Wed May 23, 2012 1:52 am

WB15 has a PA-06 SAMAS developed by the airforce and listed as never getting deployed past prototype stage. the same book has it being made in an automated factory held by the Apaches, so apparently the Airforce was working on getting it deployed.

It's the PA-04A and nope nothing says it never went past prototype, the bases factory was unused is all and that means nothing.
The only time prototype is even used in the book is page 204 about the recovery of some prototypes from a KLS development plant in the north west wilderness.
This development plant is not 'a secret military base' the PA-04A factory was discovered in and the SAMAS is not a KLS development that I can recall.

Japan may have developed it into their police suit but The USA SAMAS had Japaneses co-developers the American on the video introduces the three Japanese men in the video after showing off the USA SAMAS with American flags emblazoned on it- that's why i believe they were the proof of concept units.
The suit outdid the designers expectations and is said to be a wonderful all purpose weapon that can serve as infantry, defensive, support, cleanup and rescue all of which the Airforce does.

*off topic*
Don't care about 1964 Pentagon no armed fixed wing aircraft for the army directive, directives come and go faster than I changed socks in the service and the interservice dispute on that to me is childish.
They are actually mulling over the idea of allowing females in Ranger school now, my instructors would have died of apoplexy just hearing that alone, so things change it's the only constant.

Besides 1990 H.R. 4739 section 1439 mandated that for each Army OV-1 retired an A-10 and assets was to be transferred to the Army, yes this was an actual passed law.
What happend there I don't care, it could have been repealed or what ever but as we always said that's above my pay grade and me caring, but it does make for an interesting RPG nugget to use in something like chaos Earth/Rifts and to me is interesting to use something actualy happening.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Wed May 23, 2012 1:04 pm

It would seem sensible if they had the fore thought to have undersea secret facilities capable of building new subs that for an undersea carrier there should be equal capability to replenish the aircraft/power armor the carrier carries. The main thing that will be eaten up via attrition for any carrier will be its planes and projected forces like power armor so it makes sense that the ability to replace those would be key in any dedicated support sites.

Maintaining a carrier for years does you no good if over time it loses everything its carrying with no ability to replace them.

Gamer wrote:That entire post is absolutely meaningless to the subject, you know that.

List one underwater naval facility that has automated factories for it's submersible aircraft carrier/troopship?
List one under water naval facility made for submersible aircraft carrier/troopship so they don't have to return to port to replenish.
List one just one facility like the New Navy

Why modern facilities that have no basis what so ever are even being brought up when the New Navy has automated factories built for it for that express purpose is mind boggling.
Did you even read the book?
You might as well said something stupid like then why hasn't NASA built a glitter boy factory on the moon yet.

While your at it you might look into we don't make Chobham armor and haven't for over a decade.
If your going to use an example at least keep it up to date.

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Wed May 23, 2012 2:00 pm

I certainly did read the book. I'll grant you it is possible, but still out of the context of how a lot of other stuff is written/current times. LM, NG, Boeing, etc, don't simply build factories on military bases or just give the designs over to the US military and say "have at it, build it yourself".

Sure, stuff changes, but there is little to indicate in the books that the military industrial complex has changed so drastically that the US military has taken over actually building all of its stuff. So yes, the books say that there were automated factories. The reality of even the books (talking about all the different military industrial CORPORATIONS) is that makes no sense. At best, at least if you want to follow everything else various books discuss and the current capitolistic society the US is, is that those "automated factories" are really automated shipyards and maintenance depots designed to repair and overhaul the equipment. Not actually run off new stuff from an assembly line.

That doesn't mean you couldn't modify it to do that, or do some basic reverse engineering to be able to manufacture stuff.

Beyond that, even the most centralized production imaginable TODAY, sources parts from dozens of different manufacturers/factories to assemble a final "good" like a tank, aircraft, etc. You don't produce the radar array in the factory that assembles the airframe, or the microchips in the same factory as makes the hydraulic lines. The only way to truely ground up make something remotely like that would be with nanites, and the books make it clear that nanite manufacturing is the provence of the ultra advanced, not common tech even pre-rifts (reference mentions of ARCHIEs advanced factories). This doesn't mean that you couldn't produce all of that in one factory, but it makes little economic and square footage sense to do that. I doubt that the US military just decided to take on their own production AND spend vast wads more money by trying to produce every component for every single vehicle and piece of equipment they had in the same factory.

Back to "lets assume the book is right and doesn't fly in the face of must of the stuff other books have said about corporations, etc", even if they had the factories, the factories are not going to be tooled or even likely have the design specs of stuff they don't produce. We new the New Navy formed from a relatively small core. Its not like they were mention to have, or were likely to have a mechanized division of Marines, nor was the New Navy base mentioned has being the staging point or main base for any mechanized Marine divisions. So they aren't likely to be able to produce the full range of US Military, let alone NEMA gear at the factories nor have had any "in the armory" when things went south. They probably have a bit of stuff and should have been able to reverse engineer some of what they DID have if they had thought it worth the effort, but access to the full range doesn't make sense on about 10 different levels.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Wed May 23, 2012 3:03 pm

I would agree with this but at least from the books it appears the bases do have ability to construct new ships it would make sense that they have the ability to rebuild the more expendable assets such as planes/power armor. It is also probably fair to assume that they don't have access to the full NEMA line of gear probably due to army/navy/air force normal jurisdictional stuff.

That said the glitterboy appears to have been basically the main battle tank of the USA and making a super carrier to project force around the world it does not seem to make much sense that glitterboys were not amongst compliment on the carrier. They are overall not very large and pack a huge punch and would be excellent in shore bombardment roles as well as to project force into a country.

Given the whole creation of the secret bases for repair/resupply and replenishment of expendables I would have to assume that at least limited capability to replace any of the carriers standard compliment of power armor/robots/aircraft would be a high priority for such secret bases. A carrier without deployable assets is a pointless waste of time and money. Planes/power are seen as expendable assets count on them eventually being expended and once expended they need to be replenished. The construction of the bases makes clear that the "powers that were" had clear concerns about their ability to resupply the super carrier if things got really bad. They clearly made efforts to allow the super carrier to be self sufficient for an extended period of time without assistance from the mainland.

azazel1024 wrote:I certainly did read the book. I'll grant you it is possible, but still out of the context of how a lot of other stuff is written/current times. LM, NG, Boeing, etc, don't simply build factories on military bases or just give the designs over to the US military and say "have at it, build it yourself".

Sure, stuff changes, but there is little to indicate in the books that the military industrial complex has changed so drastically that the US military has taken over actually building all of its stuff. So yes, the books say that there were automated factories. The reality of even the books (talking about all the different military industrial CORPORATIONS) is that makes no sense. At best, at least if you want to follow everything else various books discuss and the current capitolistic society the US is, is that those "automated factories" are really automated shipyards and maintenance depots designed to repair and overhaul the equipment. Not actually run off new stuff from an assembly line.

That doesn't mean you couldn't modify it to do that, or do some basic reverse engineering to be able to manufacture stuff.

Beyond that, even the most centralized production imaginable TODAY, sources parts from dozens of different manufacturers/factories to assemble a final "good" like a tank, aircraft, etc. You don't produce the radar array in the factory that assembles the airframe, or the microchips in the same factory as makes the hydraulic lines. The only way to truely ground up make something remotely like that would be with nanites, and the books make it clear that nanite manufacturing is the provence of the ultra advanced, not common tech even pre-rifts (reference mentions of ARCHIEs advanced factories). This doesn't mean that you couldn't produce all of that in one factory, but it makes little economic and square footage sense to do that. I doubt that the US military just decided to take on their own production AND spend vast wads more money by trying to produce every component for every single vehicle and piece of equipment they had in the same factory.

Back to "lets assume the book is right and doesn't fly in the face of must of the stuff other books have said about corporations, etc", even if they had the factories, the factories are not going to be tooled or even likely have the design specs of stuff they don't produce. We new the New Navy formed from a relatively small core. Its not like they were mention to have, or were likely to have a mechanized division of Marines, nor was the New Navy base mentioned has being the staging point or main base for any mechanized Marine divisions. So they aren't likely to be able to produce the full range of US Military, let alone NEMA gear at the factories nor have had any "in the armory" when things went south. They probably have a bit of stuff and should have been able to reverse engineer some of what they DID have if they had thought it worth the effort, but access to the full range doesn't make sense on about 10 different levels.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Wed May 23, 2012 6:39 pm

Gamer wrote:A non chromium armored suit would be most excellent.
But I would leave it as a Marine shore assault unit and forget about underwater use as primary.
A 40 GB broadside would be cool to see, not so cool to hear though..

Agreed...A GB broadside, delivered underwater in shallow water would be ...well, stupendous....If you didn't know where the GBs were before, the spouts of shockwaved water would tell you.

Also agreed; laser rellective armor would be less important underwater; although blue-green laser frequency changing seems cheap, there are few enemies facing the New Navy who actually use lasers. A GB's best defense is to remain out of laser range, using torpedoes or supercavitating ammunition to remain out of laser range, but within sniping range using its own weapons. Finding armor resistant to sonic weapons on the other hand would be something I'd think the New Navy's R&D would be looking into.
Hpwever, if you're planning on using the GBs more in a shore-based role,where it seems just about everybody has lasers, retaining the LR armor makes sense.

Seneca · Unread post by **Seneca** » Wed May 23, 2012 10:12 pm

After reading my handout on Tritonia one of my players asked, "so it is a floating Merc-town?"

My initial response was no, but the more I think on it the more I can see that it could be. Anyone else?

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:37 am

I don't disagree with the secrete base and being able to replenish/resupply at it. On the other hand, considering the cost involved in creating a base that could manufacture most of those supplies, in house, it would probably be vastly cheaper and more space efficient just to park a bunch of the supplies there. The raw materials, plus manufacturing equipment to produce a wing of submersible fighter planes is going to take up a lot more space than just a wing of submersible fighter planes.

They would certainly have some impressive mainteance, dry dock, etc facilities, but unless they were litterally constructing the bases to supply and keep running a fleet for DECADES without outside replenishment (oh and setting up mining, smelting, etc facilties and the personnel to operate all that too, and likely most of the raw materials couldn't be found remotely near the base), it makes no sense to have MANUFACTURING facilities there. Sure the New Navy would have built them by now easily, just like they would have found ways to trade/mine/acquire the raw materials to make ships/aircraft/etc, but pre-existing facilities just makes no economic, logistical or volume related sense.

If the fleet needs replenishment it makes no sense for it to sit around in dock for a month or three while you manufacture a new air wing for the ship. You want to uncrate and assemble the air wing (or just take the shrink wrap off), hook em up to a crane and load them on the carrier.

For ship building, for a well outfitted dry dock and shipyard there is little difference between serious overhauls/repairs and building a ship from scratch, so that is not a stretch that they'd have the capability to build ships pretty much from the get go with the exception that they'd have to rely on spare parts for some things until they could build the ability to make them (things like microchips, sensors, maybe a few exotic things like power plants, etc). The things like power armor, aircraft, etc should/would have had to of been built from the ground up for assembly lines, microchip fabs, etc. It isn't something that should have taken them centuries, if they had some technical know how, they could have built the machines to build the machines to build the machines maybe over the course of 10-20 years for everything.

So anyway, I digress a little. Serious facilities make total sense, actual manufacturing facilities makes little sense from a lot of stand points. Huge logistics stockpile also makes sense. Maybe not spare ships, but several wings of aircraft, dozens to hundreds of spare suits of PA, thousands of suits of armor, weapons, ammo, etc makes complete sense for a secrete base. Just like massive stock piles of spare parts for the ships (probably even multiple spare propulsion and power plants for each ship type).

glitterboy2098 · Fri May 25, 2012 12:46 pm

i like the idea that the secret bases had good sized workshops with sets of advanced fabrication units.. basically devices using 3D printing and other such approaches that you can build from raw materials individual parts.
in a normal situation, it would let you fabricate any special tools or parts the logistics supply at the base don't have enough of. which would slow you down, but allow you do some repairs and resupply without having to go all the way back to amajor fleet base.

post rifts, it gave them the tolls to build the tools that built the factories they needed.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sun May 27, 2012 6:59 am

Gamer wrote:
We know the New Navy has Glitter Boys (emphasis being they are being called the Rifts version of the name, not the Chaos Earth version of the name).

I don't know when your book was printed by my Chaos Earth book was printed several years AFTER Underseas.
Would be a little hard for the authors of underseas to know the name 'Chromium Guardsman' then don't you think.
With the New Navy sticking away from the land the last 300 years how do you suppose they found a platoon worth of Glitter boys in prime shape.
If they could salvage them from a Marine base then it's just easy for them as the most powerful ship on planet at the time to have had a platoon assigned to their Marines.
It makes perfect tactical sense for them to have had a platoon of these walking tanks to go along with the rest of the Marine contingent.

Those factories were made to allow the sub to stay at sea and undetected, this means those factories were the prime candidate for making a limited amount of suits be it whole or in parts.

The same goes for the any versions of the SAMAS be they Naval or Marine assets, the factories would be able to replace them or the it renders the whole string of automated factories to keep the sub at sea and undetected pretty useless.

As for the skelebot technology being used by the military, reread the very first sentence of the Combat drone soldier in Chaos earth.
The militaries had them FIRST.

Drones: Military's may have had them first, but no mention the US Navy/Marines used them. Im not saying its not plausible, we just have no proof you are correct, thus we need a New Navy source book to verify. And if they did have them, why were they not employed in 103 PA (sure, IRL PB didnt know to write about them at the time the book was written...but some reason needs to be explained in a New Navy book).

Factories: I love it how people assume factories can make anything they want. Id love to see the local Ford factory turn around and start making B-17s just like that. I mean, today's Fords are WAY more technologically advanced than a WWII bomber...right? This should be easy. But seriously, factories are way more complex than that. Sure, provided the New Navy has the blueprints to produce Glitter Boys (and SAMAS), they would have to retool the factories to be able to make these units...but that also means they have to STOP making something else. To maintain the fleet, can the New Navy afford to even do that? We dont know since there really isnt enough information.

Glitter Boys: Yeah, I know. Instead of going down the Glitter Boy/Chromium Guardsman route, I should have said the following instead (basically forget what I said earlier...must have been smoking crack): There is only one reference in WB7 of Glitter Boys being employed by the New Navy and that is one line in a list of assets in one task force. There is no fluff text of Glitter Boys being produced, or even used wide spread...or even that the New Navy has any. To me, this is huge because if the New Navy could make Glitter Boys...CJ would have said it in some paragraph somewhere. This is why I assume the (40?) GBs they do have have listed have been salvaged over time. As far as we know, they are only used on that one ship and are otherwise rare compared to the rest of the New Navy equipment. Again, we need a New Navy book to clarify.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun May 27, 2012 7:20 am

Kagashi wrote:
Gamer wrote:
We know the New Navy has Glitter Boys (emphasis being they are being called the Rifts version of the name, not the Chaos Earth version of the name).

I don't know when your book was printed by my Chaos Earth book was printed several years AFTER Underseas.
Would be a little hard for the authors of underseas to know the name 'Chromium Guardsman' then don't you think.
With the New Navy sticking away from the land the last 300 years how do you suppose they found a platoon worth of Glitter boys in prime shape.
If they could salvage them from a Marine base then it's just easy for them as the most powerful ship on planet at the time to have had a platoon assigned to their Marines.
It makes perfect tactical sense for them to have had a platoon of these walking tanks to go along with the rest of the Marine contingent.

Those factories were made to allow the sub to stay at sea and undetected, this means those factories were the prime candidate for making a limited amount of suits be it whole or in parts.

The same goes for the any versions of the SAMAS be they Naval or Marine assets, the factories would be able to replace them or the it renders the whole string of automated factories to keep the sub at sea and undetected pretty useless.

As for the skelebot technology being used by the military, reread the very first sentence of the Combat drone soldier in Chaos earth.
The militaries had them FIRST.

Drones: Military's may have had them first, but no mention the US Navy/Marines used them. Im not saying its not plausible, we just have no proof you are correct, thus we need a New Navy source book to verify. And if they did have them, why were they not employed in 103 PA (sure, IRL PB didnt know to write about them at the time the book was written...but some reason needs to be explained in a New Navy book).

Factories: I love it how people assume factories can make anything they want. Id love to see the local Ford factory turn around and start making B-17s just like that. I mean, today's Fords are WAY more technologically advanced than a WWII bomber...right? This should be easy. But seriously, factories are way more complex than that. Sure, provided the New Navy has the blueprints to produce Glitter Boys (and SAMAS), they would have to retool the factories to be able to make these units...but that also means they have to STOP making something else. To maintain the fleet, can the New Navy afford to even do that? We dont know since there really isnt enough information.

Glitter Boys: Yeah, I know. Instead of going down the Glitter Boy/Chromium Guardsman route, I should have said the following instead (basically forget what I said earlier...must have been smoking crack): There is only one reference in WB7 of Glitter Boys being employed by the New Navy and that is one line in a list of assets in one task force. There is no fluff text of Glitter Boys being produced, or even used wide spread...or even that the New Navy has any. To me, this is huge because if the New Navy could make Glitter Boys...CJ would have said it in some paragraph somewhere. This is why I assume the (40?) GBs they do have have listed have been salvaged over time. As far as we know, they are only used on that one ship and are otherwise rare compared to the rest of the New Navy equipment. Again, we need a New Navy book to clarify.

Except we're told the factories are intended to handle all supply needs of the Ticonderoga, so yes they can do the equivalent of switching between making luxury cars and fighter jets. How they do it we don't know but they're advanced enough to reconfigure on demand for production needs of the fleet.

I do agree though that they don't have Glitter Boy production capabilities, if they did we'd have been presented with at least one sea-worthy variant of the Glitter Boy in the book (God knows they toss out variants all over the place it seems like). Just like we're presented with space-modified versions in Mutants In Orbit, a ton of variants from Quebec, those Triax produces, Japan, and even South America. If the New Navy made their own we'd see a specialized one for underwater activities.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Sun May 27, 2012 8:26 am

Drones: Military's may have had them first, but no mention the US Navy/Marines used them. Im not saying its not plausible, we just have no proof you are correct, thus we need a New Navy source book to verify. And if they did have them, why were they not employed in 103 PA (sure, IRL PB didnt know to write about them at the time the book was written...but some reason needs to be explained in a New Navy book).

I'll say it again then.
As for the skelebot technology being used by the military, reread the very first sentence of the Combat drone soldier in Chaos earth.
The militaries had them FIRST, they developed them and shared the design with NEMA.
The proof is there in the CE book if you actually read it, even says what it was used for by the militaries.

As for the glitterboys if they haven't been making them then how are they keeping them repaired, fueled, loaded with ammo and all the other requirements needed to keep them 100% operational.
How are they keeping ANY of their hardware going without those automated factories.
Certainly CJ listed the glitterboys in various states of disrepair since he didn't list they have the capability to do something about it.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun May 27, 2012 8:46 am

Gamer wrote:
Drones: Military's may have had them first, but no mention the US Navy/Marines used them. Im not saying its not plausible, we just have no proof you are correct, thus we need a New Navy source book to verify. And if they did have them, why were they not employed in 103 PA (sure, IRL PB didnt know to write about them at the time the book was written...but some reason needs to be explained in a New Navy book).

I'll say it again then.
As for the skelebot technology being used by the military, reread the very first sentence of the Combat drone soldier in Chaos earth.
The militaries had them FIRST, they developed them and shared the design with NEMA.
The proof is there in the CE book if you actually read it, even says what it was used for by the militaries.

As for the glitterboys if they haven't been making them then how are they keeping them repaired, fueled, loaded with ammo and all the other requirements needed to keep them 100% operational.
How are they keeping ANY of their hardware going without those automated factories.
Certainly CJ listed the glitterboys in various states of disrepair since he didn't list they have the capability to do something about it.

It's possible to repair and resupply something without being able to actually make the parts from scratch. If you had to have the ability to make Glitter boys from scratch to repair and keep them armed no one outside of nations like Free Quebec would have them. The New Navy simply acquires parts as needed from others to maintain the Glitter Boys that they've acquired over the years, or takes them in to places that are qualified to repair them.

So while they have Glitter Boys they aren't part of the standard equipment that the automated factories are designed to ensure that the Ticonderoga always has available.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:32 am

I know that, I had just given one plausible with the Gbs earlier and suddenly it's a OMG that can't be right.
They keep to themselves for the most part so where are they getting those incredibly hard to come by parts enough to keep a full platoon of Glitterboys in parts and ammo at 100%.
I've never said that they had a factory that would churn out many suits, but it's possible they have one for parts and is able to build a few over time.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sun May 27, 2012 3:27 pm

I do not have my books on me at the moment, but I believe Chaos Earth only mentions that militarys had drone tech before the NEMA, it does not mention specific ones in particular. Therefore, no matter how much it makes sense to assume, we cannot say for certain the New Navy would have drone tech at their disposal. Until I see "The US Navy employed drone technology prior to the Great Cataclysm", your statement is only an assumption. Hence why I hope the New Navy book specifically says one way or another. And if they did have the tech, why have they not used it in 103 PA? That's all im saying. No need to roll eyes.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Sun May 27, 2012 4:47 pm

Kagashi wrote:I do not have my books on me at the moment, but I believe Chaos Earth only mentions that militarys had drone tech before the NEMA, it does not mention specific ones in particular. Therefore, no matter how much it makes sense to assume, we cannot say for certain the New Navy would have drone tech at their disposal. Until I see "The US Navy employed drone technology prior to the Great Cataclysm", your statement is only an assumption. Hence why I hope the New Navy book specifically says one way or another. And if they did have the tech, why have they not used it in 103 PA? That's all im saying. No need to roll eyes.

The new navy does have robotics and their tech level is at the same level as the CS now i wonder why that is?
It's in the underseas book under technology.
But by your last post there shouldn't even be a New Navy book because then why wasn't any of that potential gearpreviously listed in the underseas book if they had it in 103 PA.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sun May 27, 2012 7:37 pm

This will be my last post on the subject, because you are obviously just trying to pick a fight.

But now that I am back home and able to reference page 71 of Chaos Earth, it says: "The CDS was developed* jointly by the militaries of the United States of America** and Canada, but shared with the NEMA in order to test the robots in an urban environment***."

* developed does not mean full scale production or even operational use/deployment.
** The Army, Navy/Marines, and Air Force are specific services with in the "militaries of the USA". This is not definitive that the Navy/Marines employed this technology whether or not the nation as a whole had the technological know-how to make them. If these ground units were mass produced and used prior to the cataclysm, I assume (I must assume, because it isn't written anywhere) that this would have been employed by the Army, but this is speculation on my part. Just because the Army has something, does not mean the Navy has them too (The Navy currently has Aircraft Carriers...that does not mean the Army can start producing them tomorrow). There is also nothing in this statement that any service used this technology operationally. This is a very long stretch to "the New Navy has factories that can make drones."
***This statement can be taken one of two ways: The "militaries of the US and Canada" already tested them in the rural field and wanted urban testing (most likely), or they were not tested at all and were using the NEMA as an organization to do the preliminary leg work for them prior to mass production (not as likely due to the way the sentence is written, but certainly is not beyond the scope of individual services trying to save money). Either way, it is still vague as to if the Navy had them, and even more vague to if the New Navy would have it.

All that being said, I personally do not think it would be beyond the scope of reason to include drones, Glitter Boys, and SAMAS variants as part of the New Navy arsenal...I just want it in official printed word, which at the time of this post...we do not have.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Mon May 28, 2012 12:27 am

This will be my last post on the subject, because you are obviously just trying to pick a fight.

Nope, just backing my opinion and what the books say.
But you are one that must have everything pointed out to you as you can't seem to do it yourself.
Case in point:

But now that I am back home and able to reference page 71 of Chaos Earth, it says: "The CDS was developed* jointly by the militaries of the United States of America** and Canada, but shared with the NEMA in order to test the robots in an urban environment***."

* developed does not mean full scale production or even operational use/deployment.

Why not finish reading about them instead of just hand picking what you just want or is that too much to ask?
It actually says what the military USED them for.
Hense they were accepted, operational, and deployed.

Edit added text from book
'Military use included frontline infantry troops (sent in to soften up the enemy or punch a hole in the enemy line), border patrols, seek and destroy missions, guard duty and base camp defense.'

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Mon May 28, 2012 11:11 am

I would say that the New Navy could arrange to purchase GB parts & supplies from FQ on the sly thru a contact or even the Black Market or thru Merc town. Heck it's a sated fact that Archie has been producing weapons and gear over the past 300 yrs and restocking depots or just randomly guiding adventurers to some of his hidden caches.
It is very true that just having a factory doesn't mean that you can automatically/ "magically" produce whatever you want. They would, indeed, have to be retooled for new production.
In retrospect I would say that the New Navy may know of or known of certain military/NEMA depots that they could get to quickly and easily and raid them for supplies and equipment. Perhaps the New Navy simply prefers to use their own gear as opposed to using NEMA gear and may not want to/or lack the info to produce things like CDS/Skelebots.