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Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 9:58 pm**

I have a weakness for shotguns since they are the only modern firearm that functions well in not just one or two roles, but almost every role that you might need a firearm for. So naturally, I was extremely pleased that RUE actually noticed them in the WP section (although I was dismayed by the fact that according to the WP strike bonuses, it's harder to hit with a shotgun than a pistol...what were they thinking?).

So they list varying damage depending on what you're shooting:
buckshot: 2D6 (presumably this is what I generally refer to as "birdshot")
light shot: 3D6 (turkey loads?)
medium shot: 4D6 or 5D6 (probably approaching 0 or 00)
heavy shot: 6D6 (probably 0000 or similar. which makes sense since it's effectively 4 9mm bullets per shot and a 9mm does what, 2D6?)

I noticed that it didn't mention slugs, but I think I've seen them listed as 4D6 or 5D6 which is on par with the damage of other rifles suitable for larger game (deer, moose, etc), so that makes sense.

RMB mentions explosive SDC rounds that do 1D6x10 damage. It doesn't say anything about explosive shotgun slugs, but it seems reasonable that an explosive slug could do more damage than an explosive 9mm or even .45. I noticed that RUE makes no mention of explosive SDC rounds being available.

Flipping through the GM's Guide, I see on page 112 the following:
Explosive Shell (Fragmentary) 2D6 MD to 5 ft radius, 3D6 to 10ft radius for double blast, costs $130 per shell.
Explosive Shell (Plasma) 3D6 MD to to 3ft radius, 5D6 to to 6ft radius for double blast, costs $170 per shell

Pretty nice, but expensive.

On page 171, WI-10 Ramjet Rounds don't mention shotgun slugs, but it seems reasonable, so for $5-$10 per shell, you can do 1MD. A 12 gauge slug is wider but shorter than a .50 bullet, so it's not clear if the WI-20 heavy Ramjet Round could be made for a shotgun. If so, that's 1D4MD for $10-$15.

If you don't need the area of effect, the ramjet rounds are much more economical than the explosive shells from page 112.

Looking through the rest of GM's Guide, there are some other shotguns mentioned...
...pg 116, ATA "super 10" shotgun and ATA "mega-20" shotguns: use special tech to do MD, so the shells are clearly not an option for a regular shotgun. Doesn't actually say if these are "real" shotguns that can shoot regular shotgun shells, but if they can, then that's pretty cool.
...pg 119, BigBore Sawed-Off and BigBore Shotgun: shells are clearly not available to regular shotguns. A shame they don't offer other types of shells for this gun. It's bigger than a 12-gauge, so it should be able to be at least as flexible.
...pg 131, Q4-44 "Drummer Double-Barreled Shotgun:there's a good bet that a regular shotgun could use the explosive shells doing 1D6MD, but costing $200-$300 per shell, so not a good deal compared to Ramjets or the explosive shells from page 112. Totally awesome gun, by the way.
...pg 141, H-15 "Scattergun" Shotgun: says it's a shotgun, but can't fire regular shotgun shells, so really, it has none of the versatility of a shotgun. Crappy gun.
...there's no Juicer shotgun? Really? REALLY??? Edit: I missed it, but it's there: NG-11S
...pg 150, high tech arrowheads: there's no reason equivalent slugs couldn't be made, but the prices suck, so there's no point.
...pg 153: HE-20G Micro-Grenades: says they're half the size of a shotgun shell, so it's too bad that they don't make a K-HEX shotgun shell. Would probably be too expensive anyways.
...pg 167-168: TX-5 Pump Pistol and TX16 Pump Rifle: the MD is done by explosive, so if they made a suitable shell, there's no reason why a regular shotgun couldn't use similar ammo. They also don't say how big the bore is for these Pump weapons, so it's conceivable that they could be made to shoot shotgun shells in addition to their regular ammo. If that were so, that would be awesome (but it's unlikely since they didn't mention it).

Except for the Q4-44 and maybe the ATA "Super 10" shotgun, nobody has really made any effort to bring the shotgun into the Rifts age.

Seems like it would be comparatively cheap and easy to make a single- or double-barrel shotgun out of MDC materials and give it a modern feed mechanism. I don't know why every kingdom and weapon manufacturer isn't making something like this (like they all do with the L-20 pulse laser rifle).

Anyways, did I miss something somewhere? If there's some love for the shotgun that I've missed, I'd love to know about it.

--flatline

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 10:22 pm**

flatline wrote:I
Anyways, did I miss something somewhere? If there's some love for the shotgun that I've missed, I'd love to know about it.

--flatline

There's plenty of fanlove if you look online and in the Palladium threads, but not much official in-book.

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 10:36 pm**

You might want to look over the two new ones that are in Triax 2

Edit -
There is also another in the SA2 book.

Juicer Uprisings also has the NG-11S

Posted: **Thu May 24, 2012 10:39 pm**

Ah, looks like I missed the NG-11S from Norther Gun. It's description summarizes most of the ammo types for a 12-gauge and specifically mentions the Ramjet round available: Armor-Piercing Ramjet Rounds: $20, 2D6MD.

Okay, so any 12-gauge in production today, made with MDC materials is a serious, and economical, contender now.

Taalismn, google returned lots of hits for shotguns in rifts on this forum. Thanks for the redirect! That's how I learned of the NG-11S. I'll probably find lots more that I missed as I wade through all these older threads.

--flatline

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 9:17 am**

flatline wrote:Ah, looks like I missed the NG-11S from Norther Gun. It's description summarizes most of the ammo types for a 12-gauge and specifically mentions the Ramjet round available: Armor-Piercing Ramjet Rounds: $20, 2D6MD.

Okay, so any 12-gauge in production today, made with MDC materials is a serious, and economical, contender now.

Taalismn, google returned lots of hits for shotguns in rifts on this forum. Thanks for the redirect! That's how I learned of the NG-11S. I'll probably find lots more that I missed as I wade through all these older threads.

--flatline

You're welcome. Personally, I find that nothing sez 'Be Gone, Hellspawn!' to a demon like a face(or crotch) full of blessed incendiary depleted uranium buckshot delivered by the Holy Roman Blunderbus.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 9:20 am**

Here is a little write up I did on Rifts Shotguns with rules for shot spread and many different types of shotgun ammunition.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=114767&hilit=shotgun

I really should refine this into a Rifter article.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 9:44 am**

Wooly wrote:Here is a little write up I did on Rifts Shotguns with rules for shot spread and many different types of shotgun ammunition.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=114767&hilit=shotgun

I really should refine this into a Rifter article.

Oh yeah, call me 'Destroya'. :bandit:

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 11:21 am**

"I like to keep this handy for close encounters."
-Cpl Hicks

I get that line in my head anytime I read about shottys.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 11:45 am**

Voodoolaw wrote:"I like to keep this handy for close encounters."
-Cpl Hicks

I get that line in my head anytime I read about shottys.

Of all the crimes in the English language calling a shotgun a "shotty" and Palladium Books "Pally" rate amongst the blackest.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 12:30 pm**

Wooly wrote:
Voodoolaw wrote:"I like to keep this handy for close encounters."
-Cpl Hicks

I get that line in my head anytime I read about shottys.

Of all the crimes in the English language calling a shotgun a "shotty" and Palladium Books "Pally" rate amongst the blackest.

"Deathstick", "Boomstick", "Scatter Gun", or "Blunderbus" acceptable?

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 12:33 pm**

one of the main things that keeps shotguns from showing up much in rifts is the fact that as purely kinetic weapons, it is very hard to get them to do MD. most of the solutions that work, like ramjet slugs or explosive shells.. ultimately turn the shotgun into a less effective rifle (in the case of ramjets) or grenade launcher (explosives). if you go that route, it is generally more effective to buy a rifle or a grenade launcher.. the shotgun can do the job, but is far less capable at it.

as an SDC weapon, it is a devastating and versatile choice. in an MDC setting, it's not as devastating, though i agree that the versatility of being able to load both SDC ammo and fire explosive rounds or other specialty ammo means it should be a common choice.

IMO, the loss of the SDC weapons tables in the RMB -> RUE transition did shotguns a disfavor. frankly the shotgun is such a straightforward idea that all you really need is to give a listing of alternate ammo types by guage, and a listing of common SDC versions. unless your doing something very interesting (like the Juicer uprisings weapon) or using an unconventional mechanism (like the WB14 weapon), you only really need to get a standard "20th century" pump action or semi-auto.. buy some speciality ammo and go nuts.

in the real world shotguns have quite a bit speciality ammo. slugs, a wide variety of shot, rubber slugs and/or shot, beanbags, taser slugs, explosives... last i checked there were even microcamera rounds being developed for urban recon! if it can fit into the shell, it's available. sometimes in 2-3 different versions. no reason that these shouldn't be useful in rifts. its just that since the books tend to focus on the 'cutting edge' MD stuff, SDC weapons that haven't changed much in centuries (measured from PA110) just don't get much love.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2012 12:54 pm**

If you're looking for futuristic, or just plain fun-looking, shotguns(possibly of the 'Golden Age'), I'd suggest the following from the old Cyberpunk 2020 DataFortress site:
http://datafortress2020forums.110mb.com/filegallery/4images/details.php?image_id=472 http://datafortress2020forums.110mb.com/filegallery/4images/details.php?image_id=546

They're PDF file sites, but the illos are quite nice, gathered from real-life and various sci-fi sources.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:07 pm**

other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:46 pm**

say652 wrote:other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

You need bigger shotguns, then, like in the 200mm range. :twisted:

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:58 pm**

say652 wrote:other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

Not true, One of our players uses a Mecha size Shotgun in our Robotech game. Its very effective for boarding and raiding ships or bases.

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:17 pm**

I always thought railguns WERE Mecha sized shotguns. lol

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I always thought railguns WERE Mecha sized shotguns. lol

With the right shells, maybe(like proximity-fused frag rounds, or buckets of scrap metal), but straightout rail guns as described in Rifts are more machine guns....

Posted: **Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:29 pm**

say652 wrote:other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the range of a shotgun shooting 0000 or a slug to be?

What ranges do you think firefights (aka non-sniper type encounters) generally occur at?

--flatline

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:07 am**

flatline wrote:
say652 wrote:other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the range of a shotgun shooting 0000 or a slug to be?

What ranges do you think firefights (aka non-sniper type encounters) generally occur at?

--flatline

buckshot about 150 feet slugs around 300 feet any further add in a minus 3 to strike rolls

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:22 am**

How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:58 am**

say652 wrote:
flatline wrote:
say652 wrote:other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the range of a shotgun shooting 0000 or a slug to be?

What ranges do you think firefights (aka non-sniper type encounters) generally occur at?

--flatline

buckshot about 150 feet slugs around 300 feet any further add in a minus 3 to strike rolls

Hmmm...if I have my sights/scope properly sighted in for 200 yards, why would I have a -3 with the shotgun + slug? Or does the -3 apply to all ranged attacks beyond 100 yards?

--flatline

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:41 pm**

Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

Plastic explosive needs an electric charge to set off. So to do what you're thinking you'd have to launch the plastic explosive but also have some sort of slug with it with some sort of impact trigger with an electric charge in it to set off. One would think that the explosion launching the stuff would either trigger the little slug with the electronic spark or would damage it.

C4 example is stable enough to set on fire and cook on, you can even drop an anvil on it while it's on fire and it just squishes.

I may be envisioning what you're thinking wrong, but I don't see it working.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:41 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

Plastic explosive needs an electric charge to set off. So to do what you're thinking you'd have to launch the plastic explosive but also have some sort of slug with it with some sort of impact trigger with an electric charge in it to set off. One would think that the explosion launching the stuff would either trigger the little slug with the electronic spark or would damage it.

C4 example is stable enough to set on fire and cook on, you can even drop an anvil on it while it's on fire and it just squishes.

I may be envisioning what you're thinking wrong, but I don't see it working.

Yeah the individual rounds would be a bit complex, but what I'm more concerned with is if the shell could actually hold enough material to do decent damage.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:48 pm**

Colt47 wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

Plastic explosive needs an electric charge to set off. So to do what you're thinking you'd have to launch the plastic explosive but also have some sort of slug with it with some sort of impact trigger with an electric charge in it to set off. One would think that the explosion launching the stuff would either trigger the little slug with the electronic spark or would damage it.

C4 example is stable enough to set on fire and cook on, you can even drop an anvil on it while it's on fire and it just squishes.

I may be envisioning what you're thinking wrong, but I don't see it working.

Yeah the individual rounds would be a bit complex, but what I'm more concerned with is if the shell could actually hold enough material to do decent damage.

unless you're looking for a delayed or remote detonation, using plastic in an explosive round isn't the easiest way from A to B.

One of the main benefits of shotguns is that, as far as guns go, they're very very simple and easy to use and or fix. If you add in alot of complexity to the shotgun you're losing alot of the usefulness. Might as well go to a battle rifle then.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Colt47 wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

Plastic explosive needs an electric charge to set off. So to do what you're thinking you'd have to launch the plastic explosive but also have some sort of slug with it with some sort of impact trigger with an electric charge in it to set off. One would think that the explosion launching the stuff would either trigger the little slug with the electronic spark or would damage it.

C4 example is stable enough to set on fire and cook on, you can even drop an anvil on it while it's on fire and it just squishes.

I may be envisioning what you're thinking wrong, but I don't see it working.

Yeah the individual rounds would be a bit complex, but what I'm more concerned with is if the shell could actually hold enough material to do decent damage.

unless you're looking for a delayed or remote detonation, using plastic in an explosive round isn't the easiest way from A to B.

One of the main benefits of shotguns is that, as far as guns go, they're very very simple and easy to use and or fix. If you add in alot of complexity to the shotgun you're losing alot of the usefulness. Might as well go to a battle rifle then.

How does making a complex round make the weapon firing it anymore complex?

Well, the idea is that if it's possible to make a plastique explosive that does 1d6 MD an ounce, than it should be possible to make an explosive that does the same amount of damage in a different format. The question is if it's possible to use three or more ounces of explosive material in the shell to allow for a decent amount of damage. Basically a North American version of a pump round.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:17 pm**

Colt47 wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Colt47 wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

Plastic explosive needs an electric charge to set off. So to do what you're thinking you'd have to launch the plastic explosive but also have some sort of slug with it with some sort of impact trigger with an electric charge in it to set off. One would think that the explosion launching the stuff would either trigger the little slug with the electronic spark or would damage it.

C4 example is stable enough to set on fire and cook on, you can even drop an anvil on it while it's on fire and it just squishes.

I may be envisioning what you're thinking wrong, but I don't see it working.

Yeah the individual rounds would be a bit complex, but what I'm more concerned with is if the shell could actually hold enough material to do decent damage.

unless you're looking for a delayed or remote detonation, using plastic in an explosive round isn't the easiest way from A to B.

One of the main benefits of shotguns is that, as far as guns go, they're very very simple and easy to use and or fix. If you add in alot of complexity to the shotgun you're losing alot of the usefulness. Might as well go to a battle rifle then.

How does making a complex round make the weapon firing it anymore complex?
Well, the idea is that if it's possible to make a plastique explosive that does 1d6 MD an ounce, than it should be possible to make an explosive that does the same amount of damage in a different format. The question is if it's possible to use three or more ounces of explosive material in the shell to allow for a decent amount of damage. Basically a North American version of a pump round.

What one man can do, another can do!!

"CAN" there be a reversed engineerd pump round? Sure. Depends on your gm and stuff but I'd look at NG first, then Bandito arms second for knock offs.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:40 pm**

You missed the best shotgun in the game. Pg 100 Merc Ops. The WI-GL8 Automatic Shotgun and grenade launcher.

It fires large bore shotgun shells for 6d6 sdc.
TX-16 Shells for 4d6 MD
and a variety of grenades.
It will hold 10 grenades in the disposable cylinder or 60 large bore rounds.

Great gun, range 800', no the best but good for a shotgun.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 pm**

Triax 2 has two shotguns. There is the TX-SS01 Exterminator that has a 600ft range, 2D6 MD to 6ft radius (buckshot), 4d6 single target (slug) with the slug having a knockdown capability, and it has an 8 round mag. There is also the briefcase hidden shotgun that fires both SDC rounds and has damages listed for three types of MDC rounds.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:22 pm**

Icefalcon wrote:Triax 2 has two shotguns. There is the TX-SS01 Exterminator that has a 600ft range, 2D6 MD to 6ft radius (buckshot), 4d6 single target (slug) with the slug having a knockdown capability, and it has an 8 round mag. There is also the briefcase hidden shotgun that fires both SDC rounds and has damages listed for three types of MDC rounds.

Well, that sounds like one more reason to buy Triax 2

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:47 pm**

I'm pretty sure you need robotic or better strength to use it though don't you? It's something. I don't have the book open infront of me but I seem to remember you needed power armor or something to use the thing (( or be a borg))

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:47 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm pretty sure you need robotic or better strength to use it though don't you? It's something. I don't have the book open infront of me but I seem to remember you needed power armor or something to use the thing (( or be a borg))

You need an unaugmented strength of 22 or augmented of 16. If you don't you take a -2.

Posted: **Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:43 pm**

Icefalcon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm pretty sure you need robotic or better strength to use it though don't you? It's something. I don't have the book open infront of me but I seem to remember you needed power armor or something to use the thing (( or be a borg))

You need an unaugmented strength of 22 or augmented of 16. If you don't you take a -2.

There we go. I knew it was somethin'.

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:45 am**

Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

You don't need electricity to set it off, like every other conventional explosive made by man a sympathetic explosion -aka blasting cap- will detonate it.
The fluff for NG explosives was written by somebody who has absolutely zero knowledge of explosives, if all you need was electricity to detonate it, they created a very unstable and nonacceptable by anyone plastique.

The mk211 .50 round uses a small amount of comp A4 plastique.
For Rifts it would be better to just buy the better made rounds unless you already know what your doing, I am not teaching explosives 101 to a bunch of kids on a game forum.

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:59 am**

from what i can find, 20mm HE shells use about 0.4 ounces of explosive. since a12guage is about 18.5mm, and 20mm rounds have thick metal walls to help withstand the higher velocities they are fired at and impact at, i'd say 0.4 ounces is a good ballpark for an explosive shotgun slug.

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:11 am**

Gamer wrote:
Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

You don't need electricity to set it off, like every other conventional explosive made by man a sympathetic explosion -aka blasting cap- will detonate it.
The fluff for NG explosives was written by somebody who has absolutely zero knowledge of explosives, if all you need was electricity to detonate it, they created a very unstable and nonacceptable by anyone plastique.

The mk211 .50 round uses a small amount of comp A4 plastique.
For Rifts it would be better to just buy the better made rounds unless you already know what your doing, I am not teaching explosives 101 to a bunch of kids on a game forum.

And what happens when you apply the explosive force of a shotgun round to a blasting cap? Noone said "ALL YOU NEED" I said it requires. it's not like you can touch a battery to it. No.

That being said, if you think you can blast out a 'round' of plastic explosive, with a blasting cap stuck to the back of it. have it fly where you want it to.

the mk211 .50 uses Pentaerythritol tetranitrate. But it's not the plastic explosive in the round. it's "high explosives". It's more the fine powder version that feels like fine popcorn salt. yes it CAN be made plasticized, but it's not a primary that way. You may be thinking of Det cord or semtex in which it is a major componit, but it's not like you've got semtex in the .50 shell.

BTW, the energy needed for a successful direct initiation of PETN by an electric spark ranges between 10–60 mJ.

So... electricity will set it off too.

The problem is, that the primary charge of a shot gun round will set off the plastic explosives. It's not like it's just going to launch a glob of plastic explosives through the air at something and have it blow up THEN.

(( Edit: Note. I'm not saying you couldn't make explosive shotgun rounds. Just you won't be lobbing a glob of plastic explosive to do it.

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:55 am**

glitterboy2098 wrote:from what i can find, 20mm HE shells use about 0.4 ounces of explosive. since a12guage is about 18.5mm, and 20mm rounds have thick metal walls to help withstand the higher velocities they are fired at and impact at, i'd say 0.4 ounces is a good ballpark for an explosive shotgun slug.

Comparing a 20mm projectile to 12 gauge slug isn't a good start.
The best results would be to look into the FRAG-12 rounds and go from there

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:38 am**

Actually, one thing that bugs me in Rifts North America is how they can have MD explosives, yet they don't have any slug throwers that USE MD level detonations to propel munition at high speeds. This isn't very difficult a concept when they have hundreds of SD level firearms sitting around and can easily see the principle behind chemical propellent. :lol:

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:39 am**

Colt47 wrote:Actually, one thing that bugs me in Rifts North America is how they can have MD explosives, yet they don't have any slug throwers that USE MD level detonations to propel munition at high speeds. This isn't very difficult a concept when they have hundreds of SD level firearms sitting around and can easily see the principle behind chemical propellent.

Sovietski...

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:00 am**

Gamer wrote:
Colt47 wrote:How many ounces of Northern Gun MD plastique explosive do you think would fit in a round designed for a shotgun?

You don't need electricity to set it off, like every other conventional explosive made by man a sympathetic explosion -aka blasting cap- will detonate it.
The fluff for NG explosives was written by somebody who has absolutely zero knowledge of explosives, if all you need was electricity to detonate it, they created a very unstable and nonacceptable by anyone plastique.

The mk211 .50 round uses a small amount of comp A4 plastique.
For Rifts it would be better to just buy the better made rounds unless you already know what your doing, I am not teaching explosives 101 to a bunch of kids on a game forum.

I sharpied out the part with electricity a long time ago. It didn't make any sense considering modern C4 is normally detonated using a blasting cap. Also, your last statement is probably the most rude sentence I've ever read on this forum.

The Galactus Kid wrote:Sovietski...

Nooooooo! The Russians are winning the arms race again! :shock:

Posted: **Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:13 pm**

The Galactus Kid wrote:
Colt47 wrote:Actually, one thing that bugs me in Rifts North America is how they can have MD explosives, yet they don't have any slug throwers that USE MD level detonations to propel munition at high speeds. This isn't very difficult a concept when they have hundreds of SD level firearms sitting around and can easily see the principle behind chemical propellent.

Sovietski...

and Scandinavians. who probably use more than the sovietski.

Posted: **Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:31 pm**

Colt47 wrote:Actually, one thing that bugs me in Rifts North America is how they can have MD explosives, yet they don't have any slug throwers that USE MD level detonations to propel munition at high speeds. This isn't very difficult a concept when they have hundreds of SD level firearms sitting around and can easily see the principle behind chemical propellent.

By all accounts, MD sucks at kinetic transfer. Even the BigBore series has to use conventional materials to fire the explosive MD shells, and RamJet rounds need an on-board fuel supply to get up to speed.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:Sovietski...

and Scandinavians. who probably use more than the sovietski.

Just remember guys, just being MD wouldn't actually help fire a round. You need more efficient outgassing to actually have a more efficient gun propellant. Even ignoring the MD issues, there is a reason we don't already use high explosives as a propellant, gas expansion is far more important than explosive force.

Which brings us back to needing 'tricks' to get MD performance out of conventional firearms.

Known tricks:
MDC materials propelled by secondary fuel. (RamJet and rocket-type rounds.)
SDC rounds containing MD explosives, propelled by a conventional charge.
MDC shell with MDC explosives, fired by compressed air. (Technically, this should technique should be capable of so much more, with MDC materials and robotic-strength pumps the amount of pressure could be tremendous.) (Also, examples so far have not been usable in regular guns.)
Rounds that actually fire energy blasts when triggered.

Going farther afield, are the non-conventional firearms, largely rail/coil gun in process or 'undescribed'.

Here's a trick we haven't seen yet that could fit the bill:
A combination of MDC materials and MD energies, in a more 'conventional' format should have some third element in the process. An SDC material to outgas heavily when vaporized by a small MD charge. Suggest going with a 'charge' literally, and mimic the suggested Electrothermal-Chemical (ETC) weapons some have suggested as the next stage of conventional firearms, running an small MD arc of electricity through a SDC gassing agent (even running that through conventional gunpowder could theoretically boost the force behind a round by 150%-200%). Either the weapon could provide the energy (cheaper ammo) or the individual round could have a small charge (similar to Wilk's CTF rounds).
Wanting to stick to unpowered weapons? Take the compressed air idea, seal it in a thin MDC casing with a percussion-activated MD firing cap behind it to destroy the casing, and heat the air, resulting a smooth and sudden burst of expanding gasses to hurl the projectile of your choice.
Or, going a bit cruder, lace the SDC material with similar materials as used in the 'plasma' warheads.
In all cases, an MDC constructed firearm would be required for safe usage.

[I hereby sign these ideas over to authors to use as they see fit and claim no rights to them. (Besides, they're just extensions of how things have been shown to work in the setting, and of a couple real-world ideas)]

Could also sabot MDC penetrators inside good SDC materials and fire them like regular rounds. Generally, this is the leading theory on what exactly the 'Advanced Armor-Pirecing Rounds' you read about from time to time are.

Going a bit further afield, just having a firearm of MDC construction and casings, you could overcharge the rounds ridiculously for some truly devastating SD attacks. Kicks like a mutha' though.

Posted: **Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:40 pm**

Isnt there a big bore shotgun in new west also the TW shot gun.

Posted: **Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:19 pm**

Armorlord wrote:
Colt47 wrote:Actually, one thing that bugs me in Rifts North America is how they can have MD explosives, yet they don't have any slug throwers that USE MD level detonations to propel munition at high speeds. This isn't very difficult a concept when they have hundreds of SD level firearms sitting around and can easily see the principle behind chemical propellent.
By all accounts, MD sucks at kinetic transfer. Even the BigBore series has to use conventional materials to fire the explosive MD shells, and RamJet rounds need an on-board fuel supply to get up to speed.

i've not seen anything to support that claim. i can see your reasoning, but its faulty logic. just because the bigbore series and ramjets use non-MD propellants doesn't mean that MD explosives don't do kinetic transfer. in fact, if they didn't, they'd not do much damage at all. plus the bigbore revolver's MD explosive shell sure seems effective at imparting kinetic effects on the target. that's why it has the knockdown effect.

i'm pretty sure the reason ramjets and the big bore, and the like haven't used MD level explosive propellants is the fact they don't really need them. all the munitions looked at so far in the game have been either 'stopgap' systems intended to take a 20th century weapon designed for SDC use and make it viable in the MDC age (ramjets and explosive shotgun rounds, for example), or relatively low velocity stuff (big bore).

and you forget we have seen an example of MD level propellants in rifts so far. the plasma propelled slug throwers of Austrilia use MD level plasma explosions to propell metal slugs at velocities high enough to do MD (even though the shells themselves are not explosive). and you'll notice those weapons have a high recoil due to that.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:Sovietski...

and Scandinavians. who probably use more than the sovietski.
Just remember guys, just being MD wouldn't actually help fire a round. You need more efficient outgassing to actually have a more efficient gun propellant. Even ignoring the MD issues, there is a reason we don't already use high explosives as a propellant, gas expansion is far more important than explosive force.

Which brings us back to needing 'tricks' to get MD performance out of conventional firearms.

Known tricks:
MDC materials propelled by secondary fuel. (RamJet and rocket-type rounds.)
SDC rounds containing MD explosives, propelled by a conventional charge.
MDC shell with MDC explosives, fired by compressed air. (Technically, this should technique should be capable of so much more, with MDC materials and robotic-strength pumps the amount of pressure could be tremendous.) (Also, examples so far have not been usable in regular guns.)
Rounds that actually fire energy blasts when triggered.

trust me, i did the research and thought out the scandinavian stuff. it mostly comes down to the design of the weapon, explosive, and projectile. change one, you have to make changes to the rest to compensate. the nice part about MD level explosives though is that you can resurrect a number of old ammunition concepts that were failures in their times due to issues with old style (or even modern) propellants being too weak to do what the designers originally intended.

as for those 'tricks"..

MDC projectiles propelled by secondary propellants have the disadvantage of needing time to accellerate. they are basically gyrojet rounds initially propelled by conventional smokeless powder.. and like gyrojets, they'd be accellerating for the first few feet out of the barrel, meaning that up close their kinetic energy is reduced,and thus they would do less damage.

MDC explosive shells have size limits. you basically can't fit a worthwhile explosive yield for such into anything smaller than a heavy machinegun.. while MD explosive are potent, their damage is listed by the pound (453.6 grams), while most smallarms bullets are measured in grams.. lets take the 5.56mm x45mm NATO as an example. the entire projectile, made of brass jacketed lead, is 4 grams. which means an MD explosive of 1D6x10 MD per pound (fairly typical) would only be doing 113.4x less damage.. or between 9 and 53 points of standard damage. while this is about 3x better than the 3D6sd the 20th century bullet does by palladium stats, it is still fairly anemic.
and that's assuming the entire projectile mass is explosive. in reality, you'd need to devote mass to the casing, the fuse, etc. you'd be lucky to get a third of the projectile mass as explosive.. meaning your MD explosive shell does as much damage as a 20th century FMJ round.. but would cost at least 10x as much.
and a round that small can't use things like shaped charges to amplify the damage.. the metal jet would be too small to do much damage.

that's why the explosive rounds made by wellington industries start at .50cal and work their way up. anything smaller is actually inferior to their ramjet rounds!

MDC explosives fired by compressed air sounds cool, but is really impractical. your basically talking about dynamite guns, and the reasons those never caught on had nothing to do with the limitations on the compressor side of things, but rather the fact that using compressed air meant for a far more mechanically unreliable system (mainly due to the issues of seals.. something MD tech doesn't help with), that is bulkier and more unwieldy than a conventional cannon. traits that would not be solved by the application of MD tech. airguns have a niche in the covert ops world if they fire darts or slugs, or other quiet projectiles. but lobbing loud explosives around negates the one advantage an airgun has over a regular gun, that of stealth.

the rounds that fire energy blasts fall under a different category than the rest, since those are energy weapons with a self contained per-shot ammo system, not something you apply to conventional projectiles. to use 'energy ammo' like that, the gun would have to be specially designed to accommodate it.

Posted: **Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:04 pm**

glitterboy2098 wrote:i've not seen anything to support that claim. i can see your reasoning, but its faulty logic. just because the bigbore series and ramjets use non-MD propellants doesn't mean that MD explosives don't do kinetic transfer. in fact, if they didn't, they'd not do much damage at all. plus the bigbore revolver's MD explosive shell sure seems effective at imparting kinetic effects on the target. that's why it has the knockdown effect.

Actually, it has that knockback effect because it is fired by an SD charge. You'll note that there are only two MD projectile weapons with noteworthy recoil and knockback: The BigBore series, and the mysterious Boom Gun.
I'll need to dig up some older posts to run through everything, but the short of it is that MDC materials and MD energy states react to kinetic energy in a wholly different manner than materials operating under standard model physics, going by the material on the books. The downside is that they are hard to propel, the upside is that the return for comparatively low speeds and stunted range is enormous. (In theory there are some great things you can pull off when combining MD and SD, but so far the Boom Gun, Advanced AP rounds, and the BigBore series are the only things that have taken advantage of it.)
If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll pull up the various data tomorrow, it's game night and the rest of the crew was just out for a bit grabbing some grub, and they're back. For the long version data, see the rules for explosions, falls, collisions (Thanks again to New Generation for turning well supported speculation into printed fact), every projectile weapon in the game, and impacts. Also, remember that MD is a different layer of physics that does not follow the same scale as the standard model, per the rules and the setting.

Posted: **Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:31 pm**

Agh, sorry for not getting back to it yesterday. Picked up a bit of an infection, and my remaining brain cells were wrapped around some interesting questions from a player (Fun fact: As it turns out, a psitech rotor based on Super Telekinesis would be great for props on large airships, but the amount of gear enhancement required for heavier-than-air flight could prove largely prohibitive. Seems RMB was fairly on the mark about barring early TW TK engines from aircraft as well.)

On a past note, the 'known tricks' I was referring to was simply listing the tricks that we have seen used on Rifts Earth so far. The 'new tricks' were ideas I was offering as workable solutions that may more closely resemble the function of modern firearms.

The following is a poorly edited together collection of things and examples. My apologies for thrown-together nature of it, I can't blame illness, I'm just far worse at typing things up than I am at collating data.

Spoiler:

I look at things from a hard science prespective, while acknowledging the superscience components described by the system and setting, building a solid network of science based upon how things function within the game world.
Going by the materials, the energy from MD strikes is absorbed into the material, breaking the high-energy bonds and weakening or ablating the material.
By all counts, indications are that kinetic energy interacts non-linearly with MD physics. SD attacks are specifically capable of knock-downs that MD is not. MD weapons do not feature recoil anywhere near the scale that they should were you to scale SD up to the same level- there are only two MD weapons with significant recoil, one is the most powerful kinetic weapon possible in the game, whose secrets cannot be unraveled unless shared, the other is actually SD explosives firing an MD grenade, both of which are the only ones with a specific knockdown chance as well. Actually, there is a third now, Triax created the laser equivalent to the Boom Gun as well. Solid MDC projectiles manage MD at comparatively low speeds that SDC projectiles going ten times as fast cannot. The most recent collision rules further backup that kinetics and megadamage materials are strange bedfellows, an MDC car colliding with an MDC structure at 150mph can do a sizable amount of damage (13D6) that an SDC truck fired at supersonic speeds cannot (0 damage). The optional rules do note that certain 'whole body' events like falling and being hurled would see some kinetic transference to the meatsack, but even those indicate an amazing amount of kinetic absorption from the armor. If you scaled any SD thing up to the same totals as an MD equivalent, you would see far crazier things, Hulk-style leaping for strength, riding a Wilk's laser rifle to the moon, all railguns requiring the firer by attached solidly to the ground, etc. All in all, the rules and system indicate that MD and MDC do not interact with kinetic energy in the same way that normal materials and energy levels might.
An MDC projectile attack dealing 1D4 MD is fundamentally different from a SDC projectile doing 1D4x100 SD, one is a light railgun flechette that is relatively low temperature and speed, the other is a Naval rail-cannon round which is on fire from air friction. An MDC vehicle collision doing 6D6 MD is fundamentally different from a SDC one dealing 6D6x100 SD, one is an MDC mini-van going 60 miles per hour, and the other is a SDC main-battle tank going 750 miles per hour. MD projectiles have ranges that tend to be a on the low side compared to similar sized SD weapons, and orders of magnitude less than an SD attack of similar damage.
You can't have a pistol that does 1D6x100 SD because it would need to be a heavy artillery piece. A 1D6 MD pistol makes use of the divergent set of physical laws available to certain dimensions to achieve impossibly dense energy states. Take that same pistol to a normal universe and it will be doing 1D6 to 3D6 SD, depending on how advanced the actual underlying technology is. RamJet rounds, for example, would just be relatively crude gyrojet rounds in an SDC dimension, as opposed to being a clever trick for getting a small chunk of MDC material up to a useful speed at a distance comparable to SDC rounds.

The high energy bonds of MDC materials require massive amounts of energy to be disturbed. MD attacks are packing energy into incredibly compacted forms. The whole notion of MDC materials and MD attacks is that they are incredibly energy dense, as opposed to physically dense, or, in the case of attacks, even high velocity. They aren't using whole new elements, and in most cases they aren't even using composites or ceramics either. The ubiquitous mega-damage steel is a solid metal with a strength and weight that is a wholly impossible combination by our current understanding. There are materials with the same density, mass, and, in a few cases, element composition as wood, that require MD energies to cut and won't burn in normal fires.
According to the source material, MDC materials are entirely impervious the effects of lower level energy states. With limited exceptions for thermal and kinetic energies, that will translate into the materials as a reduced rate, and seem to have a quick bleed off of said same energies.

The setting makes a massive distinction between MD and SD, even dropping all the rules trying to describe it. The breakthrough into mega-damage physics was not a mere advancement in the standard model, it was a revolutionary breakthrough in physics into whole new fields of science that became the basis for the multitude of sudden scientific breakthroughs, innovations, and discoveries during the Golden Age of mankind. The setting, not the rules, even go so far to implicitly state that MD is a dimensional property which some dimensions suport, and others do not. If you take the same gear out of the realities that support these supercharged energy states, their relative power and toughness decreases dramatically.
In short, the laws of physics make a fairly strong distinction between MD and SD, and MD is not simply shorthand for 'times one-hundred SD'.

Though looking at that, those collected bits don't cover everything, must have missed some posts, annoyingly MDC and math are both too short for our built in search. Further examples of the kinetic differences would be things like simple inert MDC arrowheads on SDC shafts fired from normal bows deal MD, SD attacks that can cause knockdown/knockback where similar MD attacks do not, and the relatively narrow area effected by MD explosives (and fragmentation) when compared to SD counterparts of far lesser damage. I feel like I'm forgetting more examples, but I'm going lay off rummaging around for them until I'm feeling a bit better.

As far as practical MD firearms, for advanced nations, an MD-level extension of electrothermal-chemical technology research would be a logical and practical alternative to the railguns and lasers sported by other nations. The higher gas pressures should help project MDC rounds to ranges comparable to modern weapons technology, actually out distancing many MD weapon fielded by other nations. An engineering question that would need to be dealt with is whether you'd want the rifling grooves to depend on a sabot for a good pressure seal, or use hexagonal rounds with more precision-cut rifling. Similar to the problems faced with developing rifling solutions for iron shot in canons (Iron shot also didn't deform when fired so it couldn't catch the edges to get a good spin and gas pressure escaped around it when the seal wasn't good, further decreasing the power and range. Pretty big problem that kept smoothbore roundshot canons around for awhile.), but at least we have the benefit of knowing what historical solutions to similar issues were, presuming these weapons were developed during the Golden Age and/or New Cold War.

In theory you could go straight electrothermal, and drop the chemical, also known as a 'plasma gun' with no relation to a weapon that fires plasma, but ETC is more closely related to conventional firearms technology, while ET guns are more like airguns.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and to be a bit more on topic, ETC should allow for a range of projectiles and round-types comparable to modern weapons in a MD format. IE: Fun times with crazy shotgun loads. Personally, I look forward to a neural-mace round.. lodged in a demon's spine.

Posted: **Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:51 pm**

Rolling Bear wrote:
flatline wrote:
say652 wrote:
flatline wrote:
say652 wrote:other than limited range a fully automatic 12 gauge is a fearsome weapon in any enviroment. now in an house to house game(i.e. zombies, fugitives, smart dragons) this weapon is indispensable. in an open field battle like fighting giant robots or flying power armor the massive damage is nullified by the limited range of the weapon.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the range of a shotgun shooting 0000 or a slug to be?

What ranges do you think firefights (aka non-sniper type encounters) generally occur at?

--flatline

buckshot about 150 feet slugs around 300 feet any further add in a minus 3 to strike rolls

Hmmm...if I have my sights/scope properly sighted in for 200 yards, why would I have a -3 with the shotgun + slug? Or does the -3 apply to all ranged attacks beyond 100 yards?

--flatline

I didn't see anyone answer this but basically it's how shotguns work in general, since the slug doesn't spin it's all in your propellent and shot. Slugs are just really heavy and not effective at ranges over 125-150 yards. Sure you can hit a larger object but not with the same accuracy that you get with a rifle. I have a Benelli Super - Nova 12gauge. With 3.5 in magnum loaded turkey rounds I'm accurate up to about 50yards, add slugs if you wanted I'd say accurate all the time at about 120 yards, maybe. It's just how the weapons system is designed to work, it really isn't designed to be crazy accurate, it's designed to throw a lot of lead a short distance doing maximum damage.

Now you could just say, this is Rifts my shotgun has crazy engineering and it's accurate up to 200 yards and I would agree with you.

So if I put the rifled barrel on my 1187, how would that change the effective accurate range with a slug?

Hmm...now that I think about it, a guy I used to work with would deer hunt with slugs. I don't know if he used a rifled or smooth barrel. I bump into him one every month or so, so if I remember, I'll ask him about it.

--flatline

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:20 pm**

Rolling Bear wrote:
I didn't see anyone answer this but basically it's how shotguns work in general, since the slug doesn't spin it's all in your propellent and shot. Slugs are just really heavy and not effective at ranges over 125-150 yards. Sure you can hit a larger object but not with the same accuracy that you get with a rifle. I have a Benelli Super - Nova 12gauge. With 3.5 in magnum loaded turkey rounds I'm accurate up to about 50yards, add slugs if you wanted I'd say accurate all the time at about 120 yards, maybe. It's just how the weapons system is designed to work, it really isn't designed to be crazy accurate, it's designed to throw a lot of lead a short distance doing maximum damage.

Now you could just say, this is Rifts my shotgun has crazy engineering and it's accurate up to 200 yards and I would agree with you.

So if I put the rifled barrel on my 1187, how would that change the effective accurate range with a slug?

Hmm...now that I think about it, a guy I used to work with would deer hunt with slugs. I don't know if he used a rifled or smooth barrel. I bump into him one every month or so, so if I remember, I'll ask him about it.

--flatline

It wouldn't be a rifled barrel, you would put a different choke tube in it. The choke tube gives the slugs less room to spread out and thus more energy going ou the tube where with my turkey or bird shot you want more spread.

I'm not saying it's impossible but if I have my .270 and my 12gauge in the woods with me and I'm deer hunting, my .270 is taking any shot over 75 yards. (That's just an example I don't take 2 guns in the woods with me deer hunting.)

I know for a fact that I can put a rifled barrel on my 1187 and that some folks do use shotguns with rifled barrels when hunting with slugs. A rifled barrel does a much better job imparting stabilizing rotation to the slug than the slanted grooves cut into the sides of regular slugs that you shoot with a smooth barrel. In practice, I do not know how big an impact this has on the effective accurate range of the system.

--flatline

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:21 pm**

Rolling Bear wrote:
flatline wrote:
Rolling Bear wrote:
I didn't see anyone answer this but basically it's how shotguns work in general, since the slug doesn't spin it's all in your propellent and shot. Slugs are just really heavy and not effective at ranges over 125-150 yards. Sure you can hit a larger object but not with the same accuracy that you get with a rifle. I have a Benelli Super - Nova 12gauge. With 3.5 in magnum loaded turkey rounds I'm accurate up to about 50yards, add slugs if you wanted I'd say accurate all the time at about 120 yards, maybe. It's just how the weapons system is designed to work, it really isn't designed to be crazy accurate, it's designed to throw a lot of lead a short distance doing maximum damage.

Now you could just say, this is Rifts my shotgun has crazy engineering and it's accurate up to 200 yards and I would agree with you.

So if I put the rifled barrel on my 1187, how would that change the effective accurate range with a slug?

Hmm...now that I think about it, a guy I used to work with would deer hunt with slugs. I don't know if he used a rifled or smooth barrel. I bump into him one every month or so, so if I remember, I'll ask him about it.

--flatline

It wouldn't be a rifled barrel, you would put a different choke tube in it. The choke tube gives the slugs less room to spread out and thus more energy going ou the tube where with my turkey or bird shot you want more spread.

I'm not saying it's impossible but if I have my .270 and my 12gauge in the woods with me and I'm deer hunting, my .270 is taking any shot over 75 yards. (That's just an example I don't take 2 guns in the woods with me deer hunting.)

I know for a fact that I can put a rifled barrel on my 1187 and that some folks do use shotguns with rifled barrels when hunting with slugs. A rifled barrel does a much better job imparting stabilizing rotation to the slug than the slanted grooves cut into the sides of regular slugs that you shoot with a smooth barrel. In practice, I do not know how big an impact this has on the effective accurate range of the system.

--flatline

Just doing some quick research, pretty much everyone is saying effective range of a shotgun is about 75-120 yards using slugs even with a rifled barrel. They just aren't made to be that accurate. That said I'm sure a "killable" shot could be made probably up to 300 yards but your accuracy ould be way way way off.

Excellent. Thank you!

--flatline

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