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I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Take a look at the Siege on Tolkeen series, where such "alignment" shift is explained.

Bad Mojo wrote:

barna10 wrote:I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Yea, a lot of us have problems with this. They tried to make tolkein look evil and the CS look less evil so it would appear the war had shades of grey. However, I never saw it, I see the CS as totally evil and tolkeen being FORCED to do evil things (like summon demons to fight) to protect itself.

There is no such thing as total evil in the real world. Various unsavory elements were drawn to the Tolkien side of the conflict only because the enemy was the CS. Any time you have an insurgency it leads to atrocities on both sides. The guerillas use atrocities as a weapon to intimidate opposition and force support. Unscrupulous conventional forces have used them for the same reason. Poorly lead conventional forces also have been known to lash out against an unseen enemy by committing attrocities against civilians (who usually are helping the guerillas).

This is the danger of allying yourself with D-bees and mages. When you send out a call for help as Tolkeen did you are going to get some fleshing eating demons mixed in with your care bear cavalrymen riding unicorns with rainbow manes.

Perhaps it's best to just acknowledge that Palladium Alignments and the labels "Good" and "Evil" are too simplistic to be useful for just about anything.

People on both sides of a war do some ugly stuff in order to survive. Who can blame them?

--flatline

So, anyone with a reference?

barna10 wrote:So, anyone with a reference?

Seige of Tolkeen: 1

barna10 wrote:Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

To be 100% completely honest different people's alignment's fell at different times threw out the series ..

But if your looking for when the King's alignment started to dip twords (and stupidly I might add) evil ..

Final Siege, Rifts : Siege of Tolkeeen Six, Coalition War's.

Page # 82.

Siege on Tolkeen book 6, pg 83 wrote:Alignment : King Creed was once Scrupulous, but politics, war, pride and hate have turned him into Aberrant evil.

Is this what your looking for ?

Also various people from his "counsel" were already evil, tho good at hiding it .

Lenwen wrote:

barna10 wrote:Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

To be 100% completely honest different people's alignment's fell at different times threw out the series ..

But if your looking for when the King's alignment started to dip twords (and stupidly I might add) evil ..

Final Siege, Rifts : Siege of Tolkeeen Six, Coalition War's.

Page # 82.

Siege on Tolkeen book 6, pg 83 wrote:Alignment : King Creed was once Scrupulous, but politics, war, pride and hate have turned him into Aberrant evil.

Is this what your looking for ?

Also various people from his "counsel" were already evil, tho good at hiding it .

Thank you

barna10 wrote:I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

It started in 88 PA.

Basically the king dies (under mysterious circumstances), and since he had no chosen successor or heir (not a very good king I might add, despite what the book says), this created problems.

SoT Book1 page 102 wrote:Although King Gravender was a noble, fair and just man, many of his advisors and peers were not...

There were two lines of thought here - one that wanted to continue on as the previous king had, and another that wanted to take a more "aggressive" approach towards the CS. Creed was chosen.

Now check out SoT page 103 under the 100 PA section.

Wooly wrote:

Bad Mojo wrote:

barna10 wrote:I've been doing some research and I am perplexed. I've participated in many discussions regarding the CS/Tolkeen war and many have cited the reason for Tolkeen's defeat was that the evil practitioners of magic couldn't work together and pretty much fell apart from within.

However, my current research keeps indicating that prior to the conflict with the CS, Tolkeen was portrayed as a center of peace and learning. I don't usually associate evil with peace and learning (my references are the many journal entries from Erin Tarn). Can anyone identify when Tolkeen shifted from good to bad? I'd appreciate actual book references and not opinion or conjecture.

Yea, a lot of us have problems with this. They tried to make tolkein look evil and the CS look less evil so it would appear the war had shades of grey. However, I never saw it, I see the CS as totally evil and tolkeen being FORCED to do evil things (like summon demons to fight) to protect itself.

There is no such thing as total evil in the real world. Various unsavory elements were drawn to the Tolkien side of the conflict only because the enemy was the CS. Any time you have an insurgency it leads to atrocities on both sides. The guerillas use atrocities as a weapon to intimidate opposition and force support. Unscrupulous conventional forces have used them for the same reason. Poorly lead conventional forces also have been known to lash out against an unseen enemy by committing attrocities against civilians (who usually are helping the guerillas).

This is the danger of allying yourself with D-bees and mages. When you send out a call for help as Tolkeen did you are going to get some fleshing eating demons mixed in with your care bear cavalrymen riding unicorns with rainbow manes.

This response seems to say that d-bees and mages are inherently evil, in spite of Tolkeen having been a good nation-state of d-bees and magic-users and it being a totally human and non-magical nation that attacked it with the intentions of killing everyone within its borders.

It's alot to read but yeah, the tolkeen war books state this pretty clearly and from the start. They did start off neutral and what not but when they made the choice to fight the CS vs just leave, they started to gear up for War, and at every turn they "Choose" Evil. Over and over and over.

It's been debated into the ground repeatedly but yeah, Tolkeen did have a choice. They could have just left. Everyone else (( Lazlo, New Lazlo, ect)) told them to get out of the way of the CS fist. Tolkeen told them to frak off and embraced the evil to stand up to the CS and shout "Come at me bro!"

They lost.

If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Pepsi Jedi wrote: It's alot to read but yeah, the tolkeen war books state this pretty clearly and from the start. They did start off neutral and what not but when they made the choice to fight the CS vs just leave, they started to gear up for War, and at every turn they "Choose" Evil. Over and over and over.

There was no choice .. and if your are trying to imply the CS would have let them all just "leave" .. going threw CS territory .. enrout to basically any place they could go ..
Your ignoring how the CS are portrayed .. in favor of attempted "enlightening" of the CS forces ..

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been debated into the ground repeatedly but yeah, Tolkeen did have a choice. They could have just left. Everyone else (( Lazlo, New Lazlo, ect)) told them to get out of the way of the CS fist. Tolkeen told them to frak off and embraced the evil to stand up to the CS and shout "Come at me bro!"

They lost.

Two things ..

1) - They (Tolkeen) were not given the choice to leave .. and the ones that DID leave .. were almost wiped out .. had not the JAL been part of the movement .. the CS would have wiped out an entire population that was trying to move ..

(there goes any validity of the CS just letting them move .. thus the illusion your trying to portay as a choice)

2) - there is no debate .. The CS never intended on allowing Tolkeen to simply move .. as I cited a source directly above here .. that shows they would have gunned down any population movement .. if not for a superior force .. esecorting said population movement.

Your attempting to imply there is a debate here .. when the book clearly stated the CS was going to attack a fleeing population ..

Yet due to it having the JAL with them .. THAT .. alone is the only reason they were not attacked ..

Pepsi Jedi .. your speaking out of ignorance.. Read the Aftermath book please .. for any and all proof 1 needs .. to show that the CS was not going to let the Tolkeen people just leave .. as per your wrongfully thought out ideas ..

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote: It's alot to read but yeah, the tolkeen war books state this pretty clearly and from the start. They did start off neutral and what not but when they made the choice to fight the CS vs just leave, they started to gear up for War, and at every turn they "Choose" Evil. Over and over and over.

There was no choice .. and if your are trying to imply the CS would have let them all just "leave" .. going threw CS territory .. enrout to basically any place they could go ..
Your ignoring how the CS are portrayed .. in favor of attempted "enlightening" of the CS forces ..

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been debated into the ground repeatedly but yeah, Tolkeen did have a choice. They could have just left. Everyone else (( Lazlo, New Lazlo, ect)) told them to get out of the way of the CS fist. Tolkeen told them to frak off and embraced the evil to stand up to the CS and shout "Come at me bro!"

They lost.

Two things ..

1) - They (Tolkeen) were not given the choice to leave .. and the ones that DID leave .. were almost wiped out .. had not the JAL been part of the movement .. the CS would have wiped out an entire population that was trying to move ..

(there goes any validity of the CS just letting them move .. thus the illusion your trying to portay as a choice)

2) - there is no debate .. The CS never intended on allowing Tolkeen to simply move .. as I cited a source directly above here .. that shows they would have gunned down any population movement .. if not for a superior force .. esecorting said population movement.

Your attempting to imply there is a debate here .. when the book clearly stated the CS was going to attack a fleeing population ..

Yet due to it having the JAL with them .. THAT .. alone is the only reason they were not attacked ..

Pepsi Jedi .. your speaking out of ignorance.. Read the Aftermath book please .. for any and all proof 1 needs .. to show that the CS was not going to let the Tolkeen people just leave .. as per your wrongfully thought out ideas ..

You know, I simply can't fathom how anyone can go 'well they had a choice, they could have just left but because they didn't they had to be evil deciding to fight for their homes'. Could you imagine telling the population of NYC or Los Angeles that 'we think your territory belongs to us now and we'll kill you to take it' that you could just pack up the city and move them elsewhere? Or think you could accuse them of being evil deciding to fight for their homes? I guess Great Britain must be evil then for not just packing up and leaving when Germany said 'hey we want your land'. Really it's just absurd the effort put into trying (and failing abysmally at it) to paint Tolkeen as evil or worse more evil than the CS because they only had one actual option available of fighting to defend themselves against an evil aggressor.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote: It's alot to read but yeah, the tolkeen war books state this pretty clearly and from the start. They did start off neutral and what not but when they made the choice to fight the CS vs just leave, they started to gear up for War, and at every turn they "Choose" Evil. Over and over and over.

There was no choice.

Sure there was. The choice they had was to leave, as everyone told them to.

Lenwen wrote: .. and if your are trying to imply the CS would have let them all just "leave" .. going threw CS territory .. enrout to basically any place they could go ..
Your ignoring how the CS are portrayed .. in favor of attempted "enlightening" of the CS forces ..

Because I'm not retarded Lenwen and wouldn't take them through CS territory. *Shakes head* I didn't say "Go join Lazlo" I said "Leave" there's ALOT of stuff west of the CS territory out side of their reach. They could have buggered off that way and been out side of the CS Reach for decades if not longer. Instead they staid, embraced evil, fought, and died.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's been debated into the ground repeatedly but yeah, Tolkeen did have a choice. They could have just left. Everyone else (( Lazlo, New Lazlo, ect)) told them to get out of the way of the CS fist. Tolkeen told them to frak off and embraced the evil to stand up to the CS and shout "Come at me bro!"

They lost.

Two things ..

1) - They (Tolkeen) were not given the choice to leave .. and the ones that DID leave .. were almost wiped out .. had not the JAL been part of the movement .. the CS would have wiped out an entire population that was trying to move ..

AFTER THE WAR. THE ONES RUNNING AFTER THE WAR were under fire.

Instead of Decades of build up in the military, they could have left BEFORE THE WAR.. THat's the choice. "Stay and fight, or get out of the way"

Yes, after a decade of military build up when the CS came calling it was too late, but they'd been told for years to get out of dodge and chose to stay and fight.

Lenwen wrote:

(there goes any validity of the CS just letting them move .. thus the illusion your trying to portay as a choice)

BECAUSE I'm NOT SAYING THEY COULD JUST LEAVE ONCE THEY LOST THE WAR. Durrr!!

I'm pointing out that they had a choice to leave before the war Lenwen.

Lenwen wrote:

2) - there is no debate .. The CS never intended on allowing Tolkeen to simply move .. as I cited a source directly above here .. that shows they would have gunned down any population movement .. if not for a superior force .. esecorting said population movement.

Because you're implying that the evacuation could only happen after the war. Which is not what I"m talking about at all.

The CS are not WEST of Tolkeen to have stopped them if they moved. In another thread I showed how it could be done.

Lenwen wrote:
Your attempting to imply there is a debate here .. when the book clearly stated the CS was going to attack a fleeing population ..

Be cause we're not talking about the same thing. You're saying that Tolkeen had no choice but to fight. I'm pointing out that BEFORE THE WAR STARTED they'd been told by EVERYONE, that they'd lose and to get out of the way. Not after. BEFORE

Lenwen wrote:
Yet due to it having the JAL with them .. THAT .. alone is the only reason they were not attacked ..

Pepsi Jedi .. your speaking out of ignorance.. Read the Aftermath book please .. for any and all proof 1 needs .. to show that the CS was not going to let the Tolkeen people just leave .. as per your wrongfully thought out ideas ..

I'm not speaking of ignorance. You're applying what I said to the wrong thing.

I said they had a choice BEFORE THE WAR. Not after they'd already lost. Gaw. How stupid is that? "Oh well we've been irradicated. I guess we can all just leave now and it'll be ok"

Come on dude. Wake up.

I said BEFORE the war started they had a choice. Stay and fight, and DIE, or get out of the way.

READ The books. It's in there. Some meeting by Tarn where she and others had told Tolkeen they couldn't survive the CS army and had all but been thrown out. How they'd advised that Tolkeen get out of the way.


You're trying to act all smart when you're not even talking about the same thing.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:BECAUSE I'm NOT SAYING THEY COULD JUST LEAVE ONCE THEY LOST THE WAR. Durrr!!

I'm pointing out that they had a choice to leave before the war Lenwen.

Sweet if that is so ..

Book an pg # .. that clearly shows the Coalition offered .. Tolkeen to just up an leave please.

I will wait for your responce with eagerness .. Perhaps I missed something , you have found ?

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:BECAUSE I'm NOT SAYING THEY COULD JUST LEAVE ONCE THEY LOST THE WAR. Durrr!!

I'm pointing out that they had a choice to leave before the war Lenwen.

Sweet if that is so ..

Book an pg # .. that clearly shows the Coalition offered .. Tolkeen to just up an leave please.

I will wait for your responce with eagerness .. Perhaps I missed something , you have found ?

The CS wasn't in position to stop them, and hadn't even tried before then. You're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen in a fictional universe. lol

Had it happened I could cite it, but the writers went the other way so we can't, can we?

Cite me a book and page where it says the CS would have stopped them if they tried to leave before that 10 year military build up.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:BECAUSE I'm NOT SAYING THEY COULD JUST LEAVE ONCE THEY LOST THE WAR. Durrr!!

I'm pointing out that they had a choice to leave before the war Lenwen.

Sweet if that is so ..

Book an pg # .. that clearly shows the Coalition offered .. Tolkeen to just up an leave please.

I will wait for your responce with eagerness .. Perhaps I missed something , you have found ?

The CS wasn't in position to stop them, and hadn't even tried before then. You're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen in a fictional universe. lol

Then by your own admittence ..

The Coalition was not going to allow them to simply leave .. so you just admitted how wrong your own logic about the CS giving them the choice to stay an fight .. or leave peacfully .. is dead wrong ..

Understood PJ. Thank you for your time in this little test of logic.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:BECAUSE I'm NOT SAYING THEY COULD JUST LEAVE ONCE THEY LOST THE WAR. Durrr!!

I'm pointing out that they had a choice to leave before the war Lenwen.

Sweet if that is so ..

Book an pg # .. that clearly shows the Coalition offered .. Tolkeen to just up an leave please.

I will wait for your responce with eagerness .. Perhaps I missed something , you have found ?

The CS wasn't in position to stop them, and hadn't even tried before then. You're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen in a fictional universe. lol

Then by your own admittence ..

The Coalition was not going to allow them to simply leave .. so you just admitted how wrong your own logic about the CS giving them the choice to stay an fight .. or leave peacfully .. is dead wrong ..

Understood PJ. Thank you for your time in this little test of logic.

You don't read very well. I said you're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen. Not COULDN'T. You're demanding a source for an alternate decision that was never made in canon. Doesn't say anything about the CS not going to ALLOW them to.

I'm saying that Tolkeen didn't try to.

That wasn't even a clever attempt to twist my words. You took my words and just said that they meant something other than was typed. LOL

Nightmask wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Sorry siding with demons is lower then anything the coalition can do, if you can't accept it I understand but don't cry about it, the Tolkien forces could have drove the coalition back and stopped at a point. But they didn't , they continued the attack , slaughtering the coalition soldiers after they gave up. Sound like the moral high ground to me

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

Your claim that the CS would have let them walk away .. is something you literally have no clue about .. your speaking about something you know nothing about ..

I've shown you that the CS would in fact NOT .. let Tolkeen walk away .. even when they tried to ..

I've shown my work .. and my side of the debate ..

Show yours now please ?

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

Your claim that the CS would have let them walk away .. is something you literally have no clue about .. your speaking about something you know nothing about ..

I've shown you that the CS would in fact NOT .. let Tolkeen walk away .. even when they tried to ..

I've shown my work .. and my side of the debate ..

Show yours now please ?

It would have been pretty hard for the CS to have stopped people that were traveling west out of Minnesota anytime before 105 PA. The CS did not have any troops stationed west of Tolkeen during that time. There is a map in the back of SoT book 1 (pg 151) that show the CS positions at the start of the war. Huge gap for people to slip through.

Heck Erin Tarn even suggested leaving...AGAIN...to King Creed AFTER war had been declared (page 90, SoT 1). But no he had to stay and fight, for the good of the people.

The CS didn't go on their "vendetta" until AFTER the "sorcerer's revenge" (page 11-12 SoT 6)

Dustin Fireblade wrote:
It would have been pretty hard for the CS to have stopped people that were traveling west out of Minnesota anytime before 105 PA. The CS did not have any troops stationed west of Tolkeen during that time. There is a map in the back of SoT book 1 (pg 151) that show the CS positions at the start of the war. Huge gap for people to slip through.

Heck Erin Tarn even suggested leaving...AGAIN...to King Creed AFTER war had been declared (page 90, SoT 1). But no he had to stay and fight, for the good of the people.

The CS didn't go on their "vendetta" until AFTER the "sorcerer's revenge" (page 11-12 SoT 6)

All that is very understandable .. but still does not prove that the Coalition would have let them ..

So when people on the threads say stuff like tolkeen was given a "choice" stay an fight or move out ..

They have ZERO .. validity .. in making such a claim .. because they have zero proof of such actions ..

However .. We do know for a fact .. that tolkeen civilian population was enrout outta tolkeen .. and had the JAL .. not been with them .. the CS would have gunned down an unarmed population with out provocation ..

Thus proving with out a doubt .. the CS would NEVER .. have allowed the Tolkeen civ's to move thus showing they never had a choice to begin with ..

1 has been proven .. the other .. is merely some one's opinion of what "could" have been .. with out an validity of any kind ..

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

It's not an insult, it was a fact. You said I said something that wasn't even REMOTELY what I said after quoting my post. So you don't read very well

Lenwen wrote:
Your claim that the CS would have let them walk away .. is something you literally have no clue about .. your speaking about something you know nothing about .

lol I've been playing the game for 20+ years. I literally, have a clue. And the books say that Tolkeen was advised to do exactly what I said. So IN GAME they seemed to think it'd work.

Lenwen wrote:
I've shown you that the CS would in fact NOT .. let Tolkeen walk away .. even when they tried to .

No. You've SAID they wouldn't. You haven't shown anything. I keep telling you Lenwen. Your opinion doesn't make facts. Even if you believe it really hard.

Lenwen wrote:
I've shown my work .. and my side of the debate ..

Show yours now please ?

You've shown nothing what so ever that has said that Tolkeen couldn't have left prior to the war. Nothing. You've SAID you don't think they would, but your opinion means nadda.

Show me in the books where it says Tolkeen couldn't have left prior to the war.

Tolkeen was doom, since the RMB was written end of the story of tolkeen

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

Your claim that the CS would have let them walk away .. is something you literally have no clue about .. your speaking about something you know nothing about ..

I've shown you that the CS would in fact NOT .. let Tolkeen walk away .. even when they tried to ..

I've shown my work .. and my side of the debate ..

Show yours now please ?

Who says a city full of magic users has to walk or even fly away? If they had decided to evacuate they could have been gone without leaving a trail to follow.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Sorry siding with demons is lower then anything the coalition can do, if you can't accept it I understand but don't cry about it, the Tolkien forces could have drove the coalition back and stopped at a point. But they didn't , they continued the attack , slaughtering the coalition soldiers after they gave up. Sound like the moral high ground to me

So siding with demons is MORE evil than the wanton slaughter of innocent men, women, and children that the Coalition soldiers did? Worse than the death camps? I am afraid I have to disagree with that assessment.

Apparently you have to keep the moral high ground in a declared campaign of genocide against you.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

It's not an insult, it was a fact. You said I said something that wasn't even REMOTELY what I said after quoting my post. So you don't read very well

Yes or no.

You claimed Tolkeen had a choice ..

The choice .. stay and fight .. or .. Leave .

I asked you to provide a source .. for your "theory" ..

I then stated .. The Coalition would in fact not allow tolkeen to do such .. then provided Canon citation .. which proved what I stated as a fact ..

All I asked .. was a citation from you .. to support your "opinion" .. that the CS would have let Tolkeen walk away ..

I did not insult you, and asked for none in return. Please do not get agry or mad .. if you can not provide citation .. for your "opinion" you stated that Tolkeen could have walked away ..

Just simply .. cite a source .. or admit there is no such "choice" .. /shrug.

strtkwr wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Sorry siding with demons is lower then anything the coalition can do, if you can't accept it I understand but don't cry about it, the Tolkien forces could have drove the coalition back and stopped at a point. But they didn't , they continued the attack , slaughtering the coalition soldiers after they gave up. Sound like the moral high ground to me

So siding with demons is MORE evil than the wanton slaughter of innocent men, women, and children that the Coalition soldiers did? Worse than the death camps? I am afraid I have to disagree with that assessment.

Tolkeen did all that stuff too, AND they called in and unleashed demonic armies.

Yeah. They "Out Eviled" the CS in the war.

As many have pointed out, in any war there are Atrocities on both sides.

Tolkeen took it to the next level when they called in armies of literal demons and fielded them.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

It's not an insult, it was a fact. You said I said something that wasn't even REMOTELY what I said after quoting my post. So you don't read very well

Yes or no.

You claimed Tolkeen had a choice ..

The choice .. stay and fight .. or .. Leave .

I asked you to provide a source .. for your "theory" ..

I then stated .. The Coalition would in fact not allow tolkeen to do such .. then provided Canon citation .. which proved what I stated as a fact ..

All I asked .. was a citation from you .. to support your "opinion" .. that the CS would have let Tolkeen walk away ..

I did not insult you, and asked for none in return. Please do not get agry or mad .. if you can not provide citation .. for your "opinion" you stated that Tolkeen could have walked away ..

Just simply .. cite a source .. or admit there is no such "choice" .. /shrug.

That's not what you said in the quoted post. You took what I said, bolded some in red, then you SAID I'd said something completely different than what I'd typed. Hince, my pointing out you didn't read well. It's right up the page. It's not like you can hide it. If you change your post the original is still quoted in my next one.

I had typed "You're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen in a fictional universe"

You quoted it, and then said ___I___ Admitted that the CS was never going to allow them to leave.

I never said that at all.

Thus, your failure at reading comprehension in -that- quoted post.

I'd still like to know how the CS is going to stop a community with pyramid technology from leaving if they want. Or even knowing they had gone before rolling up on an empty city. Even without the pyramids Tolkeen had a lot of shifters and was described as sitting on a network of ley lines and nexus points. They could have left. They could have even fought for a while and then decided to leave when the going started looking really bad. The writers wrote them as being dumber than they should have been in order to achieve the outcome they wanted.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

strtkwr wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Sorry siding with demons is lower then anything the coalition can do, if you can't accept it I understand but don't cry about it, the Tolkien forces could have drove the coalition back and stopped at a point. But they didn't , they continued the attack , slaughtering the coalition soldiers after they gave up. Sound like the moral high ground to me

So siding with demons is MORE evil than the wanton slaughter of innocent men, women, and children that the Coalition soldiers did? Worse than the death camps? I am afraid I have to disagree with that assessment.

Tolkeen did all that stuff too, AND they called in and unleashed demonic armies.

Yeah. They "Out Eviled" the CS in the war.

As many have pointed out, in any war there are Atrocities on both sides.

Tolkeen took it to the next level when they called in armies of literal demons and fielded them.

I must have missed the part in the siege books where Tolkeen invaded the coalition, razed entire cities, and put civies in death camps, and then tried to elimate the survivors when the war was over. Which book and page number did you get that from? I would like to review it.

CS Jarhead wrote:

strtkwr wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Sorry siding with demons is lower then anything the coalition can do, if you can't accept it I understand but don't cry about it, the Tolkien forces could have drove the coalition back and stopped at a point. But they didn't , they continued the attack , slaughtering the coalition soldiers after they gave up. Sound like the moral high ground to me

So siding with demons is MORE evil than the wanton slaughter of innocent men, women, and children that the Coalition soldiers did? Worse than the death camps? I am afraid I have to disagree with that assessment.

You can go ahead and change "innocent men women and children" to Demons, d-bees and mages. Last time I checked they were not invited to settle on our world. Inhuman invaders who had ample chance to leave and instead settled in the domain of man.

Hail Prosek!

Not every D-bee kills humans, just as not every human kills d-bees. Remember, not everyone was here by design. Many were pulled from their homes, with no way back. The coalition did not make a distinction, so the innocent comment stands.

Remember, not every D-bee is a Mage, or a killer. Many got caught in the crossfire, and the coalition made sure they paid the price. In no way was the coalition less evil in this war.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

It's not an insult, it was a fact. You said I said something that wasn't even REMOTELY what I said after quoting my post. So you don't read very well

Yes or no.

You claimed Tolkeen had a choice ..

The choice .. stay and fight .. or .. Leave .

I asked you to provide a source .. for your "theory" ..

I then stated .. The Coalition would in fact not allow tolkeen to do such .. then provided Canon citation .. which proved what I stated as a fact ..

All I asked .. was a citation from you .. to support your "opinion" .. that the CS would have let Tolkeen walk away ..

I did not insult you, and asked for none in return. Please do not get agry or mad .. if you can not provide citation .. for your "opinion" you stated that Tolkeen could have walked away ..

Just simply .. cite a source .. or admit there is no such "choice" .. /shrug.

That's not what you said in the quoted post. You took what I said, bolded some in red, then you SAID I'd said something completely different than what I'd typed. Hince, my pointing out you didn't read well. It's right up the page. It's not like you can hide it. If you change your post the original is still quoted in my next one.

I had typed "You're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen in a fictional universe"

You quoted it, and then said ___I___ Admitted that the CS was never going to allow them to leave.

I never said that at all.

Thus, your failure at reading comprehension in -that- quoted post.

Still dodging .. the real issue at hand ..

Understandable .. since I provided canon proof the CS would not allow them to simply "move" ..

Which is what you said they would do ..

Have a good one PJ .

Lenwen wrote:Still dodging .. the real issue at hand ..

Understandable .. since I provided canon proof the CS would not allow them to simply "move" ..

Which is what you said they would do ..

Have a good one PJ .

And how would the CS stop them?

I haven't read through all of the Tolkeen books and I don't really want to, but. Do have a question: what WERE the reasons for staying. Other people in other threads have postulated what a magic-wielding nation state can do with mass teleportation (I'm looking at you, Lenwen). Was there some reason why they couldn't just leave? Some resource? Anything besides hubris?

Because if there's not I don't know why they wouldn't have bailed. There's a legion of whackos to the east that hate you for existing and a species of super insect to the north that want to dip me in barbecue sauce and eat me. If I were Creed I'd have teleported everything to Tahiti and called it a day. Enjoyed running the great states of Tolkeen augmented with little umbrella drinks

A couple of things:

Firstly, when it comes to evil, Nukes > Demons. Nukes kill every living organism in the vicinity, Demons may or may not do so. One is a weapon of genocide, the other is a weapon of murder - genocide outranks murder.

Secondly, Tolkeen simply fleeing and not playing the CS's silly little war-games in the best case scenario would buy time. It wouldn't stop the CS's desires to expand nor their desires to kill everything that isn't them. It might keep Tolkeen existent for another dozen years but those dozen years would favour the CS far more than Tolkeen as it has been shown that the CS is capable of increasing its forces/powerbase at a far higher rate than anyone else could ever hope to. If Tolkeen miraculously managed to double its strength in those years, the CS would manage to increase its strength by a factor of 10.
If the people of Tolkeen ever intended to survive, the CS needed to be defeated sooner rather than later. Stalling adds certainty to their extinction before any certainty existed.
Considering the CS was already at war with FQ, the timing of the Tolkeen war was as favourable for Tolkeen as it would ever get - they were not wrong to choose that moment to make their stand.

The wrong choices were made by the likes of Lazlo who called for the "stalling" of the war with full knowledge that such a tactic could only weaken their position. Lazlo used that excuse to conceal their own cowardice and as a means to not join the war effort. That decision to forsake their allies is what led to the need for demons to replace them. The cowardice of Lazlo led Tolkeen down a path that could only result in the fall of Tolkeen or Tolkeen turning to desperation. The cowardice of Lazlo led to both of those outcomes.

Sometimes, inaction can be considered the greatest evil of them all.

Galroth wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Still dodging .. the real issue at hand ..

Understandable .. since I provided canon proof the CS would not allow them to simply "move" ..

Which is what you said they would do ..

Have a good one PJ .

And how would the CS stop them?

Exactly .. how they were going to stop them in the instance I provided .. by gunning them all down .. if not for the JAL .. flags they seen.. And Gen Drogue straight up being beligerent to a ranking officer ..

LOL

Lenwen wrote:

Galroth wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Still dodging .. the real issue at hand ..

Understandable .. since I provided canon proof the CS would not allow them to simply "move" ..

Which is what you said they would do ..

Have a good one PJ .

And how would the CS stop them?

Exactly .. how they were going to stop them in the instance I provided .. by gunning them all down .. if not for the JAL .. flags they seen.. And Gen Drogue straight up being beligerent to a ranking officer ..

LOL

Only if the people of Tolkeen are all idiots and wait for the entire CS army to surround them, destroy their pyramids and kill every last shifter among them before they try and run.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:If you mean evil as sinking lower then your enemies and getting demons, to help you, and letting yourself lose the moral high ground, then yes Tolkien is evil

Sorry but afraid that just doesn't fly, Tolkeen never went lower than the CS. The CS if it didn't have its policy of genocide against non-humans and mages would have been employing demons a long time ago, and doing what you have to to survive calling desperately for help from anyone willing when people who ought to have helped you left you to burn definitely isn't going to rate you as willingly evil and the CS never had the high ground to start with and however much Tolkeen slipped it could never slip below the CS.

Sorry siding with demons is lower then anything the coalition can do, if you can't accept it I understand but don't cry about it, the Tolkien forces could have drove the coalition back and stopped at a point. But they didn't , they continued the attack , slaughtering the coalition soldiers after they gave up. Sound like the moral high ground to me

If you think genocide is less evil than allying where you can to survive and that letting your people be callously slaughtered just for existing you really have some messed up priorities there. The CS came in with the intent of killing everyone and it started out trying to use nuclear weapons so as to ensure mass murder on a vast scale, and when that didn't work it resorted to conventional methods of genocide. You can't even begin to successfully argue that Tolkeen was in the wrong doing what it had to against such a vicious attacker.

Galroth wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

Your claim that the CS would have let them walk away .. is something you literally have no clue about .. your speaking about something you know nothing about ..

I've shown you that the CS would in fact NOT .. let Tolkeen walk away .. even when they tried to ..

I've shown my work .. and my side of the debate ..

Show yours now please ?

Who says a city full of magic users has to walk or even fly away? If they had decided to evacuate they could have been gone without leaving a trail to follow.

Who says they had someplace to evacuate too? Or the resources to do such an evacuation? Do you honestly think even if they could have actually evacuated that they could have possibly moved so many people anywhere given that you need to provide shelter, food, clothing, and all the other basic necessities of life?

Faceless Dude wrote:I haven't read through all of the Tolkeen books and I don't really want to, but. Do have a question: what WERE the reasons for staying. Other people in other threads have postulated what a magic-wielding nation state can do with mass teleportation (I'm looking at you, Lenwen). Was there some reason why they couldn't just leave? Some resource? Anything besides hubris?

Because if there's not I don't know why they wouldn't have bailed. There's a legion of whackos to the east that hate you for existing and a species of super insect to the north that want to dip me in barbecue sauce and eat me. If I were Creed I'd have teleported everything to Tahiti and called it a day. Enjoyed running the great states of Tolkeen augmented with little umbrella drinks

Tolkeen was their home. Would you leave your home without a fight just because someone didn't like you living near them?

strtkwr wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Tolkeen did all that stuff too, AND they called in and unleashed demonic armies.

Yeah. They "Out Eviled" the CS in the war.

As many have pointed out, in any war there are Atrocities on both sides.

Tolkeen took it to the next level when they called in armies of literal demons and fielded them.

I must have missed the part in the siege books where Tolkeen invaded the coalition, razed entire cities, and put civies in death camps, and then tried to elimate the survivors when the war was over. Which book and page number did you get that from? I would like to review it.

Cute, but they didn't win did they. As for the rest. Look in Sorcerers revenge for some of the atrocities. No they didn't keep many death camps, but they did EAT some of their captives. Meals or death camps.. .I'm gonna go with death camps on that one. As for civilians, again, they didn't win. It's been a while but I don't know that Civilians got put in the camps. I thought it was combatants. And again, look to the sorcerers revenge, they routed part of the CS army and tried to eliminate all the survivors, chasing them long after the battle was won.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:
Insults aside ..

It's not an insult, it was a fact. You said I said something that wasn't even REMOTELY what I said after quoting my post. So you don't read very well

Yes or no.

You claimed Tolkeen had a choice ..

The choice .. stay and fight .. or .. Leave .

I asked you to provide a source .. for your "theory" ..

I then stated .. The Coalition would in fact not allow tolkeen to do such .. then provided Canon citation .. which proved what I stated as a fact ..

All I asked .. was a citation from you .. to support your "opinion" .. that the CS would have let Tolkeen walk away ..

I did not insult you, and asked for none in return. Please do not get agry or mad .. if you can not provide citation .. for your "opinion" you stated that Tolkeen could have walked away ..

Just simply .. cite a source .. or admit there is no such "choice" .. /shrug.

That's not what you said in the quoted post. You took what I said, bolded some in red, then you SAID I'd said something completely different than what I'd typed. Hince, my pointing out you didn't read well. It's right up the page. It's not like you can hide it. If you change your post the original is still quoted in my next one.

I had typed "You're asking me to cite a source for something that didn't happen in a fictional universe"

You quoted it, and then said ___I___ Admitted that the CS was never going to allow them to leave.

I never said that at all.

Thus, your failure at reading comprehension in -that- quoted post.

Still dodging .. the real issue at hand ..

Understandable .. since I provided canon proof the CS would not allow them to simply "move" ..

Which is what you said they would do ..

Have a good one PJ .

lol, I'm not doding anything. You got all offended when I pointed out you didn't read well and I showed why.

I've still not seen ANY canon proof of anything from you. What page did you find where the CS wouldn't allow them to leave? If you found it, cut and past it to me and I'll read.

Again, you saying it's one thing, doesn't make it canon proof. Show me the page.

Nightmask wrote:

Galroth wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You don't read very well

Insults aside ..

Your claim that the CS would have let them walk away .. is something you literally have no clue about .. your speaking about something you know nothing about ..

I've shown you that the CS would in fact NOT .. let Tolkeen walk away .. even when they tried to ..

I've shown my work .. and my side of the debate ..

Show yours now please ?

Who says a city full of magic users has to walk or even fly away? If they had decided to evacuate they could have been gone without leaving a trail to follow.

Who says they had someplace to evacuate too? Or the resources to do such an evacuation? Do you honestly think even if they could have actually evacuated that they could have possibly moved so many people anywhere given that you need to provide shelter, food, clothing, and all the other basic necessities of life?

So you believe they can conjure fire and lightning from thin air but can't produce a water and shelter? Especially with spells like Create Wood? And with the surround network of Ley Lines and Nexus points and pyramids on them yeah I think they can manage to get people out of town. Of course finding someplace to go might be a problem, if you are only talking about Earth. But the resourses they have at hand open the entire Megaverse (minus the Nightbane earth probably) to them. So why wouldn't they evacuate at least non-combatants and some supply type people outside of reach of the CS. Hell they could have moved their entire army out of reach and then hit the CS from any direction they wanted at a later time.

Faceless Dude wrote:I haven't read through all of the Tolkeen books and I don't really want to, but. Do have a question: what WERE the reasons for staying. Other people in other threads have postulated what a magic-wielding nation state can do with mass teleportation (I'm looking at you, Lenwen). Was there some reason why they couldn't just leave? Some resource? Anything besides hubris?

Because if there's not I don't know why they wouldn't have bailed. There's a legion of whackos to the east that hate you for existing and a species of super insect to the north that want to dip me in barbecue sauce and eat me. If I were Creed I'd have teleported everything to Tahiti and called it a day. Enjoyed running the great states of Tolkeen augmented with little umbrella drinks

It pretty much was "The Right to live" which over time just devolved into ENORMOUS Hubris.

It's not 'incorrect' that the CS were the overall aggressors in the war. They were. They had reasons THEY (( the CS)) perceived that the war was nessisary. On Tolkeen's side though they started off with "This is our home, we shouldn't HAVE to run" (( Which is 'true')) and quickly devolved into "SCREW THE CS!! COME AT ME BRO!! COME AT ME!!! I'VE GOT THIS!!! I'll KICK YOUR TEETH IN!!!!"

The flavor text states that they'd been urged to relocate by pretty much everyone. Including Erin Tarn herself. They threw them out on their ear.

strtkwr wrote:Not every D-bee kills humans, just as not every human kills d-bees. Remember, not everyone was here by design. Many were pulled from their homes, with no way back. The coalition did not make a distinction, so the innocent comment stands.

Remember, not every D-bee is a Mage, or a killer. Many got caught in the crossfire, and the coalition made sure they paid the price. In no way was the coalition less evil in this war.

not every coalition soldier has killed an innocent d-bee.

Gamer wrote:Apparently you have to keep the moral high ground in a declared campaign of genocide against you.

Yes, doing anything to survive is now evil.