Forums of the Megaverse®

During the 2012 Open House (seems like it was just yesterday) I played in Carmen Bellaire's big
miniature HU adventure Attack of the Ape Alliance. On both occasions I played an alien
character with a magic weapon. During the adventure I used Carpet of Adhesion on numerous
evil apes. Carmen "housed ruled" that anyone with Supernatural P.S. could rip out of this magic
spell which has been around since PFRPG 1st edition. Now where in any version of the spell
including Rifts does it say that Supernatural P.S. can tear apart this magic spell. You either save
against it or your stuck for the minimum of 2D6 melee rounds. Now given that Carmen was
G.Ming this adventure and has the right to house rule as he sees fit and he is the writer of PU 1,
2, and 3. I really didn't have an issue with it (besides I found some cool ways around it too,
which helped about bring about his awesome defeat which I will continue to brag about for at
least another couple of weeks ). However, I got to think about what he did and found
there was some merit for it. In my games, I usually don't have the wizard or spell caster who
has this spell make it the first thing he cast on someone, just to keep it interesting because
once your trapped by it there is very little you can do to get out, unless you can teleport, go
intangible, have someone negate or dispel it, etc). So I'm debating to offer this to my players as
one of our house rules regarding this 4th level fire and forget about your opponent spell.

Regardless if you fail or make the saving throw it is possible to "tear" or "rip" out of the spell if
ones P.S. attribute score that is higher than double the spell caster's M.E. attribute score. For
example a wizard with a M.E. attribute score of 16 can hold anyone with a P.S. greater than 32.
Those with Supernatural P.S. only need to have a P.S. attribute score equal to the spell caster's
M.E. attribute score. Sound far enough or does it take away too much of the spirit of this spell?
Love to hear any opinions from the peanut gallery

Sounds fair to me Reagan. How long to tear away from the CoA in each situation (x2 M.E. for std P.S./Supernatural P.S.)?

I would say that a being with a SNPS of 24 or greater might be able to, through force of str. (i.e. they could not do any attacks while getting off of the CoA) could move out of a CoA.
This would not "rip up" the magic. In this "rip up" implies that the act of moving nullifies the whole spell. It would be just that the magic would not be strong enough to hold the individual.

The L4 spell "Sticky Feet" in the AU:GG book (last page) says that chars with SNPS are not impeded by the lower level cousin to the CoA spell.
***********
It also makes a difference the conditions of what body part is stuck to the CoA. If it is just the feet then someone could make ranged attacks while they were stuck.

But if it is a 'he tripped and did a face plant' then they would be most likely fully immobilized.

Anything that nerfs this killer of a lowbie spell is a step in the right direction. I'd even go so far as to remove the super natural need, though a high strength would still be needed (Greater than casters ME + Lvl or some such, the exact number would need me to do math to find a fair value, given PS can, and typically is ramped up heavily).

Nope, not on my game at least. Magic doesn't follow the rules of common sense in how I run a game. If your spell snags them and they fail their save (which is normally rather unlikely considering they need what, over 12 and they should have had +2 or so from P.E. as super tough things). They might think "but I am super strong!" and try tearing out but it'd hold until the magic wore off.

I understand he was trying to keep it fun but without some sort of in game explanation:

"They have a special version of Supernatural Strength cast on them by that guy over there and it allows them to shatter magical bonds!" *Evil Ley Line Walker across the other side of the room waves at you*

Then I wouldn't house rule it and even then I wouldn't do that without thinking "Would they be prepared for something like this?" and "Am I okay with my players getting their hands on this version of the spell if they kill this guy and then find it etched into his body? (Sometimes in my Rifts game screwed up Ley Line Walkers or Shifters are their own spell book. )

Anyway, I know it can be frustrating when chance turkey slaps you and powers down your adventure because the Players get lucky but so long as you are willing to give NPC's the same luck from time to time and are not squeamish about your antagonists dancing around in your players entrails if they are careless I find there is no real need to nerf abilities. Again, there are always exceptions based off situation and condition... from not having MDC on your head because you lost your helmet to the magic apes that are special because they can tear mystic bonds--but I make sure they aren't ever retconed into a game session mid-game session.

But yeah, that's just me.

As a GM, I would allow very large things caught by this spell a chance of breaking away. But it's more 'they are ripping up the ground underneath where the spell is' than anything else.

dragonfett wrote:As a GM, I would allow very large things caught by this spell a chance of breaking away. But it's more 'they are ripping up the ground underneath where the spell is' than anything else.

Yeah, that would be cool. This giant thing with a strip of side walk stuck to its shoe like gum.

LEY LINE WALKER: "Well guys, we're @#$%ed..."

Cinos wrote:Anything that nerfs this killer of a lowbie spell is a step in the right direction. I'd even go so far as to remove the super natural need, though a high strength would still be needed (Greater than casters ME + Lvl or some such, the exact number would need me to do math to find a fair value, given PS can, and typically is ramped up heavily).

Honestly I don't have a problem with it as long as it takes them a little bit to bust out or they damage themselves a bit. Sure the carpet may be sticking to their skin but if you are supernaturally strong pretty sure you can rip off the stuck skin parts although its going to sting.

I am probably mistaken but I was under the impression that saving against the carpet limits the amount of time you're stuck but being stuck was a foregone conclusion. If you fail your save it's considerably longer of a duration. If you make your save then you'll get out of it in a few melees. Is my book really old? Has the spell been revised?

Witchcraft wrote:I am probably mistaken but I was under the impression that saving against the carpet limits the amount of time you're stuck but being stuck was a foregone conclusion. If you fail your save it's considerably longer of a duration. If you make your save then you'll get out of it in a few melees. Is my book really old? Has the spell been revised?

It's still this way as of RUE, except that instead of rolling "2D6" to determine how quickly you can get out, you roll "two six-sided dice."

Also, it is clearly stated in the RUE version that the spell is just as effective on beings with supernatural P.S. as it is on everyone else, and even if you teleport away you bring a piece of the carpet with you.

Still, if I were to have a super-strong PC try to tear his or her way out of a CoA, I would probably allow it with the caveat that pieces of the carpet are still stuck to the character's body in annoying and humorous ways.

Yeah, it's pretty hard for me to house rule past the clear language in RUE where it states it's good even against cyborgs, .. and those with Supernatural P.S.. It even states that teleporting away doesn't help because the portion of the carpet you were touching goes with you!

I've always allowed creative ways out, like ripping up the ground the carpet is on. Doing damage to unclothed victims when they rip their flesh off sounds like a great option! Also, one can always take off boots/clothes as those are REALLY what is stuck.

I think Carmen owes you an apology for an epic fail of a house rule. Granted GM fiat allows the GM to change anything they need to to tell the story, but the players should be able to rely on the book somewhat. This rules throws the book out the window!

Also, for the house rule using M.E. vs P.S., seeing as this is magic and not psionics, I would suggest mage's P.E. or I.Q., or some function of caster level instead of M.E.

barna10 wrote:Also, for the house rule using M.E. vs P.S., seeing as this is magic and not psionics, I would suggest mage's P.E. or I.Q., or some function of caster level instead of M.E.

I'd like to add that a psionic power that worked like Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion except it was a contest of wills would be freaking awesome. That is all.

Trust RIfts to have a more elaborated version of the spell then what is told in PFRPG,
Nightbane, or HU. I'm shocked to see that teleport doesn't free you of the spell that it
actually goes along with you. So you smack a dragon in the face with this spell, he still has a
carpet attached to his face .

Thanks for the comments guys. Keep them coming as I still waver or not to house rule this
pretty impressive low level spell, especially after reading the Rifts version that put a little
more "emphf" into the spell by stating supernatural P.S. will not let you escape. Bad
Carmen. Very bad Carmen.

Witchcraft wrote:I am probably mistaken but I was under the impression that saving against the carpet limits the amount of time you're stuck but being stuck was a foregone conclusion. If you fail your save it's considerably longer of a duration. If you make your save then you'll get out of it in a few melees. Is my book really old? Has the spell been revised?

Actualy only at higher levels at level 1 it may be better to do no saving throw. As the random duration was longer.

Athou carpet of adheasion is a ecelent CC spells and is one of the choices for goblin grenades and arrows. Had a ninja TW with it on arrows great cc. The main goal of it is slow or stop movement in a area so even if they could tear up the ground to move this whould greatly slow them down. Pluss you have to keep doing it to get out of it as new patches as you move threw it. Perhaps the saving throw is the time it takes you to keep pulling free and move threw it.

The funnest use of it I did was as the coaxle cannon on the "belly gun" of the NG-V7 from source book one. Got nick named the money shot.

i rule that inertia can be a powerful weapon with this spell

How much of the glue goes in to the ground? that may help hold the ground together if it is just coat on top not so much but if it goes in a few inches and binds the whole area together. Maybe when you tolaport that is why it fallows you as well at least a little of it.

I don't see a problem with making the 'carpet' destroyable in a supernatural sense; non-mystic means need not apply. Not the magic itself, of course, but the surface it's attached to.

Before I'd allow it, though, there would have to be level dependent resistance added. A 12th level LLW's CoA should be more difficult for a supernaturally strong creature to escape from than when he first started casting the spell at level 1.

Chronicle wrote:i rule that inertia can be a powerful weapon with this spell

This post made my day. I laughed so hard I cried.

As for the surface I dont know the hard and fast rule but I'd say if you are strong enough to lift yourself (based of P.S. of course) and the surface you are attached too than you can automatically just tear the surface free but now youd have to carry it around until the spell expires.

My various groups have always hated this spell, mostly because of the duration (stuck until you die). We always ended going one of two ways with it: If the object you are stuck to is SDC, then you could over power the object. So if you had the spell on the ground, or strung between trees, or on something mundane, you could do a strength check and break the object it is attached to. If it is attached to something MDC, like a ship's hull, you could try to destroy it, or if the object is just too massive, you were SOoL. Unfortunately, most of my groups these days just outlaw the spell because it does come down to you save, or you die (from the inevitable undodgeable missile barrage).

Another fix for the CoA would be to raise the Level of the spell (along with the PPE cost) to level it with it's power level.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another fix for the CoA would be to raise the Level of the spell (along with the PPE cost) to level it with it's power level.

What would be a good level? What would be a good cost?

By 2 level to start, which would make the PPE cost 15.

Dreamstreamer wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Another fix for the CoA would be to raise the Level of the spell (along with the PPE cost) to level it with it's power level.

What would be a good level? What would be a good cost?

I once had a GM who split CoA into Lesser and Greater. The Lesser was as written in the books, with the change that a save meant you were not stuck at all. The Greater was level 6 or 8, had I think double the PPE cost, but otherwise functioned truly as written. There may have been tweaks to the size of the carpet as well, I dont recall, it was a long while ago.

That is a good idea 13eowulf.

Dit someone make carpet of slime,it is the opposit of Carpet of Adhesion,where a person is stick in place,any one trying to walker over the slime,slip and slide uncontrolbly and can't stay on ther feets.?

gaby wrote:That is a good idea 13eowulf.

Dit someone make carpet of slime,it is the opposit of Carpet of Adhesion,where a person is stick in place,any one trying to walker over the slime,slip and slide uncontrolbly and can't stay on ther feets.?

you just did...
Write it up a little more clearly and more detail...
then let us see it for critique.