Favorite world book and why
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:10 am
This' a corny question I know, but being new to Rifts, I'm curious.
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cyberdon wrote:This' a corny question I know, but being new to Rifts, I'm curious.
DhAkael wrote:Vampire Kingdoms (1st edition).
Why, because it had MAPS, people, places and was a COMPLETE region book.
Sadly, it was the only one to be done this way.
-sigh- ah well.
cyberdon wrote:This' a corny question I know, but being new to Rifts, I'm curious.
DhAkael wrote:Vampire Kingdoms (1st edition).
Why, because it had MAPS, people, places and was a COMPLETE region book.
Sadly, it was the only one to be done this way.
-sigh- ah well.
Grell wrote:I like World Book 12: Psyscape. I really enjoy the artwork, the monsters and the Soul Harvesters. I appreciate the notes on CS Psi-Battalion as a counterpoint to the Psyscape psychics' third eye training.
Killer Cyborg wrote:DhAkael wrote:Vampire Kingdoms (1st edition).
Why, because it had MAPS, people, places and was a COMPLETE region book.
Sadly, it was the only one to be done this way.
-sigh- ah well.
Seconded.
You could easily set entire campaigns in Juarez or the other regions in that book, without doing a heck of a lot of work other than just connecting the dots and coloring between the lines.
With later stuff, you can still do entire campaigns from a book... but it's one heck of a lot more work for the same gain.
Hystrix wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:DhAkael wrote:Vampire Kingdoms (1st edition).
Why, because it had MAPS, people, places and was a COMPLETE region book.
Sadly, it was the only one to be done this way.
-sigh- ah well.
Seconded.
You could easily set entire campaigns in Juarez or the other regions in that book, without doing a heck of a lot of work other than just connecting the dots and coloring between the lines.
With later stuff, you can still do entire campaigns from a book... but it's one heck of a lot more work for the same gain.
Thirded.
Hystrix wrote:
World Book 1: Vampire Kingdoms (1st Edition) had everything a Worldbooks should have. Especially the world information part.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 2: Atlantis was decent. It definatly discribed Atlantis in detail. Not perfect, but more complete then the World Books we have today.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 3: England wasn't bad as far as layout and world info. Kinda cheesy though.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 4: Africa was trying to describe to large an area, and as a result you have huge regions of Africa that only get blurbs about what is there.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 5: Triax and the NGR was TERRIBLE as far as world books go. Very little world info. No maps. No real NPCs to speak of. No population info. It had a butt load of new OCCs and gear (wich is the direction most Rifts World Books have taken).
Hystrix wrote:
WB 6 and 9: South America 1&2. Not bad world info. Ok maps. The gear was very overpowered.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 7: Underseas. Maybe the most useless book to date. Interesting info (minus dolphins as a playable RCC ), but generally not a great campain setting.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 8: Japan. OK world book. But it was mostly new OCCs and new gear. World info was alright, I guess.
Hystrix wrote: WB 10: Jucier Uprisings. More of an adventure book than a world book. The city info in the back seemed like an after thought.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 11: CWC. OK. I love the CS, and I liked most of the info. However. This. Wasn't. A. World. Book. It was a gear catalouge with less world info than WB 5. Just sayin'.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 12: More of a "Complete Psychic's Guide" Then a world book.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 13: Lone Star. Not bad. Good world info. Good NPCs. Solid book.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 14: New West. OK world book. Could have been better. Did we need the "Prospector" OCC?
Hystrix wrote:
WB 15: Spirit West. Not the best. Decent companion to New West.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 16: Federation of Magic. OK. It discribed a few major kingdom within the federation. Not a bad book.
WB 17: Warlords of Russia. Should have been "Weapons of Russia." Very little world info. The maps in the book sucked.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 18: Mystic Russia. Decent. A good companion book that made Warlords better. I personally loved the Necromancer upgrade.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 19: Austrailia. Weird at times, but a very solid World Book. One of the best.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 20: Canada. Very good world book. It gives you a great overvew of Canada. Only drawback is that this would have been the perfect book to place a discription of Lazlo.
WB 21: SDM. Not bad. Good companion to WB 2. A more in depth description of Splugorth society.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 22: Free Quebec. Same a CWC. OK discription of the War. VERY VERY poor world info. I feel like trhe ball was dropped on this one.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 23: Xiticix Invasion. Hey they discribed the Xiticix, there land, maps, and surrounding peoples, in detail. Good world book.
WB 24: China. Good world info, but I felt like it was incomplete. I have no idea how to set a campagn there.
WB 25: China 2. A decent companion to China 1. Made the setting better.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 26: Dinasour Swamp. OK I LOVED this book. I thought it had great world info, and was relevent to North America (which I liked). Good world info. A good adaptaion of a low tech setting on Rifts Earth.
WB 27: Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp. Good companion to Dino Swamp, but I'm not sure if it was really a world book, per say. Still not bad.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 28: Arzno. Good setting info. They made Arzno a very rich well described city. The region was described well also. Good companion to New West.
Hystrix wrote:
WB 29: Madhaven. Good horror setting. Good discription of Madhaven. I'll admit though it seemed out of place on Rifts Earth.
Hystrix wrote: WB 30: Dee Bees of North America. OK, not a bad book, but who's idea was it to call it a world book? It's not even close. Litteraly *ZERO* world info.
Hystrix wrote: WB 31: Triax 2. Good companion to the first NGR book. However, did we really need MORE Triax gear?
Hystrix wrote:
WB 32: Leumeria. Still looking this book over. Seems like a good companion to WB 7, and is filling in gaps. I'm disappointed there was no New Navy stuff.
Hystrix wrote:
My favs WB 1, 13, and 26.
Icefalcon wrote:I agree with Pepsi about maps. Don't get me wrong, I love maps. I just think with some access to Google earth, you don't need maps of the area so much as you need to know where some of the cities have been built. That can be presented in text format for you to check later. The only thing I need the maps for in Rifts is to figure out where the ley lines are located.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not exactly sure why some people have such an arousal at "maps". It's rifts earth. you all have the internet. You know what part of the world it is. Minor maps that are presented or mention of where the stuff is should be enough. Are maps nice visuals? Sure, but are they 'MAKE OR BREAK' the book? No. Alot of the things are set in general areas so the game master can put them where they want.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not exactly sure why some people have such an arousal at "maps". It's rifts earth. you all have the internet. You know what part of the world it is. Minor maps that are presented or mention of where the stuff is should be enough. Are maps nice visuals? Sure, but are they 'MAKE OR BREAK' the book? No. Alot of the things are set in general areas so the game master can put them where they want.
In order:
-The internet isn't in the books. I can't flip open the book, and find the internet. Especially not the right website with the right map designed to fit the city being described in the book.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
-I DO know what part of the world it is... unfortunately, it's not in this world. It's in a post-apocalyptic future where the landscape and coastlines has changed drastically, where modern landmarks are all but meaningless, and where even rivers and lakes will have shifted to new positions.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
-Are maps "Make or Break?"
Not really. No one thing IS, though.
But I'd sure as hell prefer maps to new OCCs, or to a lot of the gear that they've spammed out in later books, or to any number of other things that get stuck in books.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
WHY are maps important?
Because it makes my job a heck of a lot easier.
It's like the geographical equivalent of an NPC.
Sure, I could (and have, many times) make it all up myself... but it's a heck of a lot easier to have it handy, in the books.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
When the PCs decide to go down a road, I know what's there. Or what's likely to be there.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
When the PCs decide to go from one place to the next, I know how long it takes, and I have some idea of what they might encounter along the way.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I know if there are ley lines and/or nexus points. I know if there are rivers.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Geography is important. In many ways, it's the most important part of any setting, because everything else flows from there.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
What kind of people are you likely to encounter in a town?
That depends on the geography.
If you're in the hills, you'll find herders and miners.
If you're in the flatlands, you'll find farmers and ranchers.
If you're near a river, you'll find fishers and ferrymen.
If you're a forest, you'll find deer hunters. On the plains, they'll hunt buffalo or similar animals.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
What is the local community like?
That depends on the geography.
If it's easily accessible by water, air, and/or easily traversable terrain, then they're going to have strong commerce, and a more open attitude brought about by the influx and outflux of strangers and travelers. They're going to know more about the world, and know more about what's happening hundreds of miles away.
If it's more isolated, they're going to have to be more self-sufficient, possibly entirely so. If they're in a swamp, in a valley, and/or surrounded by mountains, they're going to be pretty isolated. They'll react to strangers with distrust and/or wonder, and may not even know about important parts of the rest of the world, like the existence of the CS.
What's the local industry like?
That depends on the geography, because what resources are available depend on geography.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I disagree in part and I'll explain why.Killer Cyborg wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not exactly sure why some people have such an arousal at "maps". It's rifts earth. you all have the internet. You know what part of the world it is. Minor maps that are presented or mention of where the stuff is should be enough. Are maps nice visuals? Sure, but are they 'MAKE OR BREAK' the book? No. Alot of the things are set in general areas so the game master can put them where they want.
In order:
-The internet isn't in the books. I can't flip open the book, and find the internet. Especially not the right website with the right map designed to fit the city being described in the book.
Yeah but it takes 2 seconds to google image search and click a pic.
It probably takes longer to find a map in the book.
Not always but it's not like we can't find maps extreamly easily. I'd rater one general map. Detailed if NEEDED and then spend page count on stuff I can't get off the net for free.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
-I DO know what part of the world it is... unfortunately, it's not in this world. It's in a post-apocalyptic future where the landscape and coastlines has changed drastically, where modern landmarks are all but meaningless, and where even rivers and lakes will have shifted to new positions.
Ehhhh... kinda sorta. Along some coasts, sure. NC, FL. Sure, but those books were careful to give you the map and let you know.
Even if the coast and stuff has changed, it's not like they're going to put cities in the water. (( unlss you're doing a water campaign.)) So the city will just be 'On the coast, about ____ miles from _____.
A map is nicce to point at but it's not like it's what's going to define the place. The GM's describe the area your in. He's the one that's going to lay it out. And if the char's need more detail he can tell them.
One map of the region that shows all the 'Rifts specific' stuff in the map. Cool. Bunches and bunches and bunches of maps are just a waist. to me.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
WHY are maps important?
Because it makes my job a heck of a lot easier.
It's like the geographical equivalent of an NPC.
Sure, I could (and have, many times) make it all up myself... but it's a heck of a lot easier to have it handy, in the books.
Kinda, but again it's not like it's going to tell the players too much. "You are here"
"um.. Ok."
"Go. "
"Well what do I see, what kinda land is it? What is the foilage like? is there roads? Do I see any lay lines?" ect ect ect. That's something the GM has to do, map or no.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
When the PCs decide to go down a road, I know what's there. Or what's likely to be there.
Yeah but none of the maps are that detailed.
At most you have an area of several 100 to 1000 miles with city dots on them. The GM adds in the roads and stuff. Other than "North" or "North East' it's up to the GM to describe the route and travel.
Killer Cyborg wrote: When the PCs decide to go from one place to the next, I know how long it takes, and I have some idea of what they might encounter along the way.
You've actually consulted a map for this? Beyond BROAD eastimate?
It's not like there's highway systems in rifts earth. Travel is cross wilderness. The length of time is how ever long you say it takes them to get there.
"Three weeks into your trek to Merc Town you're about half way there........"
Killer Cyborg wrote: I know if there are ley lines and/or nexus points. I know if there are rivers.
Thhe "lay lines" are much like most anything else in Rifts. They're where you need them to be as a gm. The maps we do have never show them all.
They may show high concentrations of them but there's always lay lines around somewhere unless you're in a place specificly devoid of them.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Geography is important. In many ways, it's the most important part of any setting, because everything else flows from there.
Yeah but again it's controlled by the GM, and is only as much a part of the game as the GM wants/needs it to be.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
What kind of people are you likely to encounter in a town?
That depends on the geography.
If you're in the hills, you'll find herders and miners.
If you're in the flatlands, you'll find farmers and ranchers.
If you're near a river, you'll find fishers and ferrymen.
If you're a forest, you'll find deer hunters. On the plains, they'll hunt buffalo or similar animals.
None of this is shown on the map. It's described by the GM as needed, where he needs it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
What is the local community like?
That depends on the geography.
If it's easily accessible by water, air, and/or easily traversable terrain, then they're going to have strong commerce, and a more open attitude brought about by the influx and outflux of strangers and travelers. They're going to know more about the world, and know more about what's happening hundreds of miles away.
If it's more isolated, they're going to have to be more self-sufficient, possibly entirely so. If they're in a swamp, in a valley, and/or surrounded by mountains, they're going to be pretty isolated. They'll react to strangers with distrust and/or wonder, and may not even know about important parts of the rest of the world, like the existence of the CS.
What's the local industry like?
That depends on the geography, because what resources are available depend on geography.
Again, not one of those is described on the maps. It's described in flavor text or by the GM as needed.
Sure, they could just describe the geography in the books... but maps are one hell of a lot more succinct. They're the best way to communicate large amounts of important information.
Which is why maps were invented in the first place.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:I disagree in part and I'll explain why.Killer Cyborg wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not exactly sure why some people have such an arousal at "maps". It's rifts earth. you all have the internet. You know what part of the world it is. Minor maps that are presented or mention of where the stuff is should be enough. Are maps nice visuals? Sure, but are they 'MAKE OR BREAK' the book? No. Alot of the things are set in general areas so the game master can put them where they want.
In order:
-The internet isn't in the books. I can't flip open the book, and find the internet. Especially not the right website with the right map designed to fit the city being described in the book.
Yeah but it takes 2 seconds to google image search and click a pic.
Not really.
It takes more than 2 seconds just to turn on a computer, more time to get online, more time to decide what key words are right for you, more time to type them in, and more time to sift through the results to find something that's decent.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I'll give it a practical test, looking for a map of Ciudad Juarez.
And I've got a head start, because I'm already online.
And... Go!
7.4 seconds to open a new tab and click the cursor to the Google search bar (I've paused the watch, so typing this isn't taking any time, and I'll pick back up where I was before I hit Start again)
At 11.8 seconds, I've typed in the name of the city.
18.5 seconds, and I've just clicked on the first map that popped up.
19.4 seconds, and I've readjusted the magnification once, to get a better image.
But the map is no good- it's full of highways and roads and crap that wouldn't even be there in a post-apocalyptic setting.
1 minute, 12 seconds, and I've looked at it in satellite mode as well, and the urban sprawl is big enough that I can't even tell where the city ends and the next one begins in some cases.
And what's there is WAY too big for the post-apocalyptic city described in the books- it just doesn't match.
Verus:
16.2 seconds to reach over to the VK book, pick it up, and flip through it to find the maps on pages 92-93, which show me the post-apocalyptic city, and point out where the different gang turfs are, as well as the locations of 136 of the places described in the books.
Killer Cyborg wrote:It probably takes longer to find a map in the book.
Nope.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Not always but it's not like we can't find maps extreamly easily. I'd rater one general map. Detailed if NEEDED and then spend page count on stuff I can't get off the net for free.
Stuff you can get off the net for free:
-Setting ideas and information
-NPCs
-Character Classes
-Races
-Game Mechanics
-Fantasy and Sci-Fi weapons & gear
-Spells
-Psionics
-Fantasy and Sci-Fi Vehicles
-Any other category of thing found in any of the Rifts books... or, for that matter, in any RPG gamebook.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Of course, what you find on the net might take some tweaking to fit into the setting, as it's probably not created with the specific intention of supporting the text of the Rifts books.... but that's my point.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:
-I DO know what part of the world it is... unfortunately, it's not in this world. It's in a post-apocalyptic future where the landscape and coastlines has changed drastically, where modern landmarks are all but meaningless, and where even rivers and lakes will have shifted to new positions.
Ehhhh... kinda sorta. Along some coasts, sure. NC, FL. Sure, but those books were careful to give you the map and let you know.
How does "those books give you maps" go along with the notion that maps aren't important?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Even if the coast and stuff has changed, it's not like they're going to put cities in the water. (( unlss you're doing a water campaign.)) So the city will just be 'On the coast, about ____ miles from _____.
And where's that second place?
Killer Cyborg wrote:
If it's on the other coast, then you might be in for some interesting times, because that coast might be off too.
And if your PCs decide to explore the coast, it's handy to know what the coast looks like
Killer Cyborg wrote:A map is nicce to point at but it's not like it's what's going to define the place. The GM's describe the area your in. He's the one that's going to lay it out. And if the char's need more detail he can tell them.
By which you mean, "if the characters need more detail, he can make it up."
And you're right... but the same applies to NPCs, weapons, armor, spells, psionics, and every other aspect of the game.
GMs could just make up everything in the setting as they go along... but I for one buy the books so that I don't have to.
Killer Cyborg wrote:One map of the region that shows all the 'Rifts specific' stuff in the map. Cool. Bunches and bunches and bunches of maps are just a waist. to me.
How many maps do you think that VK has?
How many maps do you think people are wanting?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:
WHY are maps important?
Because it makes my job a heck of a lot easier.
It's like the geographical equivalent of an NPC.
Sure, I could (and have, many times) make it all up myself... but it's a heck of a lot easier to have it handy, in the books.
Kinda, but again it's not like it's going to tell the players too much. "You are here"
"um.. Ok."
"Go. "
"Well what do I see, what kinda land is it? What is the foilage like? is there roads? Do I see any lay lines?" ect ect ect. That's something the GM has to do, map or no.
Yeah.... but you're missing the point.
In order for the GM to describe stuff, he has to know what it IS.
There's only a few ways that he can know that:
1. He can just make it all up. In which case, why bother buying game books in the first place?
Also, it's pretty easy to lose track of continuity.
2. He can read pages and pages of official description.
3. He can look at one (good) official map.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
2 & 3 in combo get the best results.Killer Cyborg wrote:
When the PCs decide to go down a road, I know what's there. Or what's likely to be there.
Yeah but none of the maps are that detailed.
If you're standing at the Northwest corner of the Arenain Juarez, facing Southwest, then you're looking at a parking structure that can hold up to 1,000 cars, and that is under patrol by armed guards.
Next is the Mayfair Nightclub,which is one of the best nightclubs in town, with excellent food and booze, and it's always packed when the Arena is busy.
Walk down the alleyway between these two buildings, and you'll find yourself in an open area that's often used as extra parking for Arena events, and is otherwise busy with homeless squatters, especially at night.
Looking around, you can see a lot of houses for middle-class merchants and city government workers, and if you look to the South, you can see an old wall that serves as part of the boundary between the East Side (where you are), and the New Town. On the other side of that wall are a couple of courthouses,as well as the city government building.
And so on.
You tell me which way you go, the maps tell me what's there.
Of course, I'll still have to color in some areas, connect some dots, and fill in some gaps... but the picture is clear enough that 80-90% of the work is done for me
Killer Cyborg wrote:At most you have an area of several 100 to 1000 miles with city dots on them. The GM adds in the roads and stuff. Other than "North" or "North East' it's up to the GM to describe the route and travel.
First off, you're changing the goalposts.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
You asked why I like maps, not whether or not the specific maps in Rifts were completely up to snuff- they're not. They could use more detail, and we could use more of them.
Second, I said, "When the PCs decide to go down a road, I know what's there. Or what's likely to be there."
Now flip to p. 50 of VK, and look at that map, which is pretty much like you describe.
Looking at that map, I know that if you want to travel from Fort Reid to Zacatecas, the most straightforward route is going to be traveling up the river that flows pretty much straight for 75% or more of the trip (though you'll be going upstream, into the mountains, and this will cause you some difficulties). Then you can portage your boats for a couple dozen miles if you're up to it, and hop to the next river which will take you almost the entire rest of the way, or you can head to the west of that second river and approach by land. If you try to go along the east side of the river, you'll dead-end in a fork where two rivers merge, well away from your destination.
Yeah, I'll have to describe the roads... but that's a given.
As I said, maps let me know what kind of stuff is likely to be along the road, what kind of stuff should be described.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote: When the PCs decide to go from one place to the next, I know how long it takes, and I have some idea of what they might encounter along the way.
You've actually consulted a map for this? Beyond BROAD eastimate?
Of course.
You haven't?
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's not like there's highway systems in rifts earth. Travel is cross wilderness. The length of time is how ever long you say it takes them to get there.
Right.
I base that time on their means of travel, their route, the terrain along the way, and other important factors.
What do YOU do?
Killer Cyborg wrote:"Three weeks into your trek to Merc Town you're about half way there........"
Really?
How do you KNOW that's how far along they are at that point?
Killer Cyborg wrote:
How long it took them to travel that distance?
I base it on the setting information and the maps, but you seem to be saying that's not the way to go.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote: I know if there are ley lines and/or nexus points. I know if there are rivers.
Thhe "lay lines" are much like most anything else in Rifts. They're where you need them to be as a gm. The maps we do have never show them all.
Uh.... dude, have you looked at the maps?
Most of them show where ley lines are.
That's what the map on P. 50 of VK does, for example, including one that stretches off to Easter Island.
Killer Cyborg wrote:They may show high concentrations of them but there's always lay lines around somewhere unless you're in a place specificly devoid of them.
Source?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:
Geography is important. In many ways, it's the most important part of any setting, because everything else flows from there.
Yeah but again it's controlled by the GM, and is only as much a part of the game as the GM wants/needs it to be.
Just like any other setting information.
Which makes the argument moot.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:
What kind of people are you likely to encounter in a town?
That depends on the geography.
If you're in the hills, you'll find herders and miners.
If you're in the flatlands, you'll find farmers and ranchers.
If you're near a river, you'll find fishers and ferrymen.
If you're a forest, you'll find deer hunters. On the plains, they'll hunt buffalo or similar animals.
None of this is shown on the map. It's described by the GM as needed, where he needs it.
You don't think that geography is shown on maps?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:
What is the local community like?
That depends on the geography.
If it's easily accessible by water, air, and/or easily traversable terrain, then they're going to have strong commerce, and a more open attitude brought about by the influx and outflux of strangers and travelers. They're going to know more about the world, and know more about what's happening hundreds of miles away.
If it's more isolated, they're going to have to be more self-sufficient, possibly entirely so. If they're in a swamp, in a valley, and/or surrounded by mountains, they're going to be pretty isolated. They'll react to strangers with distrust and/or wonder, and may not even know about important parts of the rest of the world, like the existence of the CS.
What's the local industry like?
That depends on the geography, because what resources are available depend on geography.
Again, not one of those is described on the maps. It's described in flavor text or by the GM as needed.
Sure, they could just describe the geography in the books... but maps are one hell of a lot more succinct. They're the best way to communicate large amounts of important information.
Which is why maps were invented in the first place.
But in a role playing game they don't.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nice breakdown, Hystrix.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yeah but it takes 2 seconds to google image search and click a pic.
Not really.
It takes more than 2 seconds just to turn on a computer, more time to get online, more time to decide what key words are right for you, more time to type them in, and more time to sift through the results to find something that's decent.
1) It's a figure of speech. I could have said "In a snap" or what ever.
That being said you're really taking it to extremes. If you have the computer and are going to use it, it'll already be on.
If you have a computer these days, who's taking time to get online?
You're at most opening a brouser.
More time to determine key words? You type into google what you're looking for.
This isn't the 80s. You don't have to even type the entire words any more. you start typing and google helps you out. "More time to type them in"? Come on.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I'll give it a practical test, looking for a map of Ciudad Juarez.
And I've got a head start, because I'm already online.
And... Go!
7.4 seconds to open a new tab and click the cursor to the Google search bar (I've paused the watch, so typing this isn't taking any time, and I'll pick back up where I was before I hit Start again)
At 11.8 seconds, I've typed in the name of the city.
18.5 seconds, and I've just clicked on the first map that popped up.
19.4 seconds, and I've readjusted the magnification once, to get a better image.
But the map is no good- it's full of highways and roads and crap that wouldn't even be there in a post-apocalyptic setting.
1 minute, 12 seconds, and I've looked at it in satellite mode as well, and the urban sprawl is big enough that I can't even tell where the city ends and the next one begins in some cases.
And what's there is WAY too big for the post-apocalyptic city described in the books- it just doesn't match.
Verus:
16.2 seconds to reach over to the VK book, pick it up, and flip through it to find the maps on pages 92-93, which show me the post-apocalyptic city, and point out where the different gang turfs are, as well as the locations of 136 of the places described in the books.
Don't know what to tell you other than you're slow. Took me between 8 and 9 seconds. i popped a tab, typed in Ciudad Juarez city map. Enter, then image search, scanned to the third or forth pic and clicked it.
As for CITYS though, it could be different. Especially if they're detailed like Ciudad Juarez is. I'm speaking of maps as in, "the 4 states covered in Arnzo" or "The new west" not a city map where you have detailed 136 stores/whatever. Even those are rare in the books.
Killer Cyborg wrote:It probably takes longer to find a map in the book.
Nope.
I guess it depends on the person. It'd take me longer to get up, get the book off the shelf, find the map, than it would to just google it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Not always but it's not like we can't find maps extreamly easily. I'd rater one general map. Detailed if NEEDED and then spend page count on stuff I can't get off the net for free.
Stuff you can get off the net for free:
-Setting ideas and information
-NPCs
-Character Classes
-Races
-Game Mechanics
-Fantasy and Sci-Fi weapons & gear
-Spells
-Psionics
-Fantasy and Sci-Fi Vehicles
-Any other category of thing found in any of the Rifts books... or, for that matter, in any RPG gamebook.
Very cute. None of that stuff is Canon.
The map, other than noted changes is a map. And as I said one general map in the book will denote those.
Killer Cyborg wrote: Of course, what you find on the net might take some tweaking to fit into the setting, as it's probably not created with the specific intention of supporting the text of the Rifts books.... but that's my point.
The difference being that all that stuff isn't canon. As opposed to the maps, where in the stuff you find in a google search will end up being better than the (Lets be honest,)) Crappy maps that we do get from time to time.
Killer Cyborg wrote: How does "those books give you maps" go along with the notion that maps aren't important?
I've stated, one general map per book to show any "Rifts centric" changes is good.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Even if the coast and stuff has changed, it's not like they're going to put cities in the water. (( unlss you're doing a water campaign.)) So the city will just be 'On the coast, about ____ miles from _____.
And where's that second place?
Where ever you want for it to be.
Point to a map where the SPEC that your PC is going to be miles long.. or is the GM going to describe it in words and tell you what you see? Then give you approximate distance to markers you can identify, (( Or lack there of.))
The difference being that the maps in rifts books don't tell you details.
The stuff on NPCs weapons armor spells ect do. The maps that you DO get in Rifts books are about one half step to MAYBE one step up from what my 9 year old can do with a crayon.
Killer Cyborg wrote:How many maps do you think that VK has?
How many maps do you think people are wanting?
It seems they want lots and lots. Just responding to one post above I found maps in books they claimed there were none at all and sometimes a half dozen or more, where people are complaining they need more.
It's not been specific but "Maps!! We want more maps! X book had Maps and ruled, no map in Y book so it suuuucked" type things.
Killer Cyborg wrote:In order for the GM to describe stuff, he has to know what it IS.
There's only a few ways that he can know that:
1. He can just make it all up. In which case, why bother buying game books in the first place?
Also, it's pretty easy to lose track of continuity.
2. He can read pages and pages of official description.
3. He can look at one (good) official map.
Very few if any of the maps in rifts books show that stuff.
Killer Cyborg wrote: If you're standing at the Northwest corner of the Arenain Juarez, facing Southwest, then you're looking at a parking structure that can hold up to 1,000 cars, and that is under patrol by armed guards.
Next is the Mayfair Nightclub,which is one of the best nightclubs in town, with excellent food and booze, and it's always packed when the Arena is busy.
Walk down the alleyway between these two buildings, and you'll find yourself in an open area that's often used as extra parking for Arena events, and is otherwise busy with homeless squatters, especially at night.
Looking around, you can see a lot of houses for middle-class merchants and city government workers, and if you look to the South, you can see an old wall that serves as part of the boundary between the East Side (where you are), and the New Town. On the other side of that wall are a couple of courthouses,as well as the city government building.
And so on.
You tell me which way you go, the maps tell me what's there.
Of course, I'll still have to color in some areas, connect some dots, and fill in some gaps... but the picture is clear enough that 80-90% of the work is done for me
Again. I'm not talking about detailed cities.
Killer Cyborg wrote:At most you have an area of several 100 to 1000 miles with city dots on them. The GM adds in the roads and stuff. Other than "North" or "North East' it's up to the GM to describe the route and travel.
First off, you're changing the goalposts.
No I'm not. I'm speaking of World book maps. Not maps of towns.
I've never had a problem knowing what is in general in places on Earth.
And if I'm running a game in a region I read about it first. I don't consult the book the second my players try and take off and go somewhere.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote: When the PCs decide to go from one place to the next, I know how long it takes, and I have some idea of what they might encounter along the way.
You've actually consulted a map for this? Beyond BROAD eastimate?
Of course.
You haven't?
Really? The maps in rifts books are detailed enough for you to do this? Plot the distance and speed through the wilderness?
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's not like there's highway systems in rifts earth. Travel is cross wilderness. The length of time is how ever long you say it takes them to get there.
Right.
I base that time on their means of travel, their route, the terrain along the way, and other important factors.
What do YOU do?
Same thing, but I go "ok it's gonna take you 2 weeks, give or take to get there, if you want to take the extremely "Safe" route, make it 3, if you want the routet that's the hardest but fastest, 1 week but you've got a higher chance of problem." and the group picks one. Then I roll with it.
I don't sit there and measure and plot and debate the rate of travel in Old world disidous forest vs new world conifer... ect ect ect (( None of which is shown on rifts maps anyway. At best you'll see a river, or mountain.))
Killer Cyborg wrote:"Three weeks into your trek to Merc Town you're about half way there........"
Really?
How do you KNOW that's how far along they are at that point?
As the GM I tell them, as that's when the "Stuff happens" vs the time in travel when nothing happens. Do you play out every single minute of travel over rifts earth? Or do you fast forward to the action, or stuff important to the story?
Killer Cyborg wrote:
How long it took them to travel that distance?
I base it on the setting information and the maps, but you seem to be saying that's not the way to go.
Sure but the maps don't tell you that.
The setting information and the GM tells you how far you've traveled in what amount of time. Wither a snow storm started and slowed you down, or you got lost and had to back track twice for water, ect. The map doesn't give you that information.
and most of them only mark the major lay lines.
The rest are where ever the GM wants them to be. You know when you run into a lay line? Any time the GM wants you to. You know when you don't? Any time the GM doesn't feel like bothering with it
Killer Cyborg wrote:They may show high concentrations of them but there's always lay lines around somewhere unless you're in a place specificly devoid of them.
Source?
Check the book under the reference point for laylines.
Killer Cyborg wrote:[Geography is] controlled by the GM, and is only as much a part of the game as the GM wants/needs it to be.
Just like any other setting information.
Which makes the argument moot.
No, it's just that the crappy maps in Rifts books don't tell you the details. The GM does.
Killer Cyborg wrote:You don't think that geography is shown on maps?
Rifts maps don't show hills.
Nor for the most part, mines. Nor heards of cattle.
Show me a rifts map where it shows the local industries, and what the towns know of the rest of the world please.
Hystrix wrote: Pepsi, I gotta say, "Why don't you just make it up yourself?" is a terrible excuse for an argument. I don' need to.
Hystrix wrote:
Example, Warlords of Russia. Sure it has a few maps. Maps with little to NO writing on them. It's sad. Would it have killed the author to add a city name or something. And that's the real complaint.
Hystrix wrote:
Alot of these world books were ripped on, not just by me, but by critics, on the lack of world discription. BTW, 24 pages of world info is pathetic for a 224 page world book
Hystrix wrote: I stick with Rifts because I like the setting, and because I usually get something out of most books. But I shouldn't have to dig through everything to find nuggets here and there.
Hystrix wrote:
Oh, and blurbs about where a certain d-bee race might live isn't world information. Rifts WB 30 wasn't a world book. That's all I'm saying on that one.
Hystrix wrote:
CWC? Not a world book. If it's a real world book anout the CS you'd have cities maped and described.
Hystrix wrote:
Heck how about a map with just the capitiols listed on the damn map. Why are we 32 "World Books" and nearly 60 Rifts books into a game that was made 21 years ago, and we still don't know exactky where Chi-Town, the largest friggin' city in North America is located on a map. And telling be it's "80 miles west of old Chicago" dosn't cut it. That is someone dropping the ball.
Hystrix wrote:
Yeah, maps arn't the end all be all. However, I'll take 1 (one) page of maps with actuall detail, as opossed to world books with twenty maps with nothing on them (i.e. Warlards of Russia). You don't need to take up page space. Heck even takeing 2 pages in a 224 page book isn't much (it's what we have now for maps, they are just spread out and poorly detailed). 1 or 2 pages of maps, about 50 pages of solid world info is all I ask.
Hystrix wrote: That would leave you with 172-173 pages for full page pictures (of which there are about 10-15), OCCs, new gear, new weapons (because we don't have NEAR enough of that), new monsters, and just general fluff. It could still be a good world book. This isn't much to ask, but we usually don't get this. We are lucky to have 20 pages of world info (in a 224 page book) and maybe a decent map, maybe.
You ask "Why do I need maps?" I ask "what do you have against them?"
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Hystrix wrote: Pepsi, I gotta say, "Why don't you just make it up yourself?" is a terrible excuse for an argument. I don' need to.
I'm not saying just make it up. I'm saying that the flavor text describes the area. The maps (( in rifts books )) Generally do not. They're very very very basic with a few city dots.Hystrix wrote:
Example, Warlords of Russia. Sure it has a few maps. Maps with little to NO writing on them. It's sad. Would it have killed the author to add a city name or something. And that's the real complaint.
Maybe you should read the rest of the world book. And the rifts setting in general. 90% of the planet is UNCLAIMED WILDERNESS. There's not that many citys to note. That's why the ones they do have is a big deal. The maps in Warlords show which warlords hold wich areas.Hystrix wrote:
Alot of these world books were ripped on, not just by me, but by critics, on the lack of world discription. BTW, 24 pages of world info is pathetic for a 224 page world book
But it is there. I agreed with you from the start i'd like more. But saying 'NONE WHAT SO EVER' when there's 25 to 50 pages or even more is inaccurate.Hystrix wrote: I stick with Rifts because I like the setting, and because I usually get something out of most books. But I shouldn't have to dig through everything to find nuggets here and there.
With out trying to sound snarky. Hystrix, the books aren't written for just you. I know that isn't the answer you're looking for but the books are written for the "masses" And the "masses" Want MOAR GUNZ MOAR POWERZ MOAR ROBOTZ MOAR OOCs".
You don't want that. _____I_____ don't want that. You and I are on the same page. We want more world info. More Fluff. Less crunch. I'm with ya brother.
We're both in the minority. If 70% of people want gunz, bots, armor, and OOC's that's what Palladium is going to write. Sadly it's not just Palladium. Check shadowrun and other books. Powers, guns, bots, ect. The books are written 1) To make money and a DISTANT 2) To be awesome for 'everyone'.
That means you and I (( As I totally agree with you on this)) End up having to look through gun and power catalogs for the nuggets of information we want.Hystrix wrote:
Oh, and blurbs about where a certain d-bee race might live isn't world information. Rifts WB 30 wasn't a world book. That's all I'm saying on that one.
lol I actually agreed with you there. I think it's a core book.Hystrix wrote:
CWC? Not a world book. If it's a real world book anout the CS you'd have cities maped and described.
They have the states mapped and described. Along with expansion plans.Hystrix wrote:
Heck how about a map with just the capitiols listed on the damn map. Why are we 32 "World Books" and nearly 60 Rifts books into a game that was made 21 years ago, and we still don't know exactky where Chi-Town, the largest friggin' city in North America is located on a map. And telling be it's "80 miles west of old Chicago" dosn't cut it. That is someone dropping the ball.
Um.. Chi town is on a few of maps in the books. From just where I'm sitting, it's marked clearly on page 166 of Free Quebec. It pops up elsewhere too. I found it picking up just two books. It's not hidden. (( or I'm lucky))Hystrix wrote:
Yeah, maps arn't the end all be all. However, I'll take 1 (one) page of maps with actuall detail, as opossed to world books with twenty maps with nothing on them (i.e. Warlards of Russia). You don't need to take up page space. Heck even takeing 2 pages in a 224 page book isn't much (it's what we have now for maps, they are just spread out and poorly detailed). 1 or 2 pages of maps, about 50 pages of solid world info is all I ask.
I'm right there with ya. 1, 2 pages of nice maps and 50 to 100 pages of world info would be awesome to me too.Hystrix wrote: That would leave you with 172-173 pages for full page pictures (of which there are about 10-15), OCCs, new gear, new weapons (because we don't have NEAR enough of that), new monsters, and just general fluff. It could still be a good world book. This isn't much to ask, but we usually don't get this. We are lucky to have 20 pages of world info (in a 224 page book) and maybe a decent map, maybe.
You ask "Why do I need maps?" I ask "what do you have against them?"
The only thing I really have against them, is as you said, with like 60+ Rifts books, there's probably less than 10 good maps in them. So the pages devoted to them are often wasted to me. Once I get the general map. I can tell where Lazlo is, where FQ is, Where Chi town is, Where Tolkeen.... was. I'm good to go. lol I'll fill in the blanks with stuff from the books.
1) if the maps were better, (( not just more detailed, you can over do that too)) I wouldn't be against them as much. and
2) I'm not REALLY against them. Just at present they're not very good (( most times)) so they're a waste.
My point was that more than once in this thread people have ruled out world books for not having maps. I don't think they're THAT important, if you have the fluff. I can get a map anywhere. I need RIFTS SETTING.
I fully agree with you on that.
Icefalcon wrote:What would be nice is to have the map that they had at the Open House this year. It was full color, clearly marked, included terrain and nicely sized. Something like that to hang on the wall for each of the continents in Rifts Earth would be nice to have.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Getting stupid long so I spoilered it for any that might wish to skip