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Tinker Dragoon wrote:It seems like 19 would be the practical limit (and I think the Triax plain-clothes armor in Rifts can go this high), but I've never actually seen a rule on it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I can see no technical reason for having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls. [Note I am not disagreeing with TD, nor DM about it's max use in canon. Even though TD's example if from rifts.]

However, my opinion is that the absolute max AR a armor can have is 21. With a nat 20 still passing through the armor to the char wearing it, but not as a crit. strike damage. To be more effective the armor would need to have a Nat AR. Nat AR's would start at a score of 4.

The mechanics of a Nat. AR4 is the same concept as with Force Fields, if is hits it hits the armor, if the attack is misses, it misses. There is no hitting and bouncing off as is possible with higher Nat AR scores.

PS: I think the Nat.AR for armor is called Robotic AR *shrugs* The problem is that in HU2 the AR in the robotics section is not specifically defined as ether like normal AR or as like Nat AR. It is written as if the player already knows which it is. This is a fault that has been argued over in this forum before. I am not going to be a part of it if someone wants to start it up again here.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:I'd say up to AR 19 would be the max for non-sealed armor. Once you hit twenty, the armor is full-proof, protecting the wearer until it is destroyed or otherwise compromised.

With Natural AR, I'd stop it at 18 and start applying the robotic AR[IIRC, that's the one with minimum damage thresholds to affect the armor?].

Damian Magecraft wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I can see no technical reason for having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls. [Note I am not disagreeing with TD, nor DM about it's max use in canon. Even though TD's example if from rifts.]

However, my opinion is that the absolute max AR a armor can have is 21. With a nat 20 still passing through the armor to the char wearing it, but not as a crit. strike damage. To be more effective the armor would need to have a Nat AR. Nat AR's would start at a score of 4.

The mechanics of a Nat. AR4 is the same concept as with Force Fields, if is hits it hits the armor, if the attack is misses, it misses. There is no hitting and bouncing off as is possible with higher Nat AR scores.

PS: I think the Nat.AR for armor is called Robotic AR *shrugs* The problem is that in HU2 the AR in the robotics section is not specifically defined as ether like normal AR or as like Nat AR. It is written as if the player already knows which it is. This is a fault that has been argued over in this forum before. I am not going to be a part of it if someone wants to start it up again here.

no technical reason? Bonus to strike from dex +8, from WP +6, from hth +6, superior quality wep +2, and from enchantments +4 for a grand total of 26 (and this doesnt even count additional buffs gained from a mage casting spells on you...) I would say thats a pretty good reason to allow AR to go higher...
And in HU I can get a first level char to at least a +25 without too much effort...

Dobergirl wrote:IS there such thing as MAX AR? Is 18 as much as one can get AR or is there possibility of having even bigger AR?

drewkitty wrote:Err.... left out a word should read something like "I can see no technical reason for not having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls." In other words I see no reason to limit the AR to 19 and below.

KillWatch wrote:well nat 20 always hits any ar, and hits it hard

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I can see no technical reason for having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls. [Note I am not disagreeing with TD, nor DM about it's max use in canon. Even though TD's example if from rifts.]

However, my opinion is that the absolute max AR a armor can have is 21. With a nat 20 still passing through the armor to the char wearing it, but not as a crit. strike damage. To be more effective the armor would need to have a Nat AR. Nat AR's would start at a score of 4.

The mechanics of a Nat. AR4 is the same concept as with Force Fields, if is hits it hits the armor, if the attack is misses, it misses. There is no hitting and bouncing off as is possible with higher Nat AR scores.

PS: I think the Nat.AR for armor is called Robotic AR *shrugs* The problem is that in HU2 the AR in the robotics section is not specifically defined as ether like normal AR or as like Nat AR. It is written as if the player already knows which it is. This is a fault that has been argued over in this forum before. I am not going to be a part of it if someone wants to start it up again here.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I can see no technical reason for having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls. [Note I am not disagreeing with TD, nor DM about it's max use in canon. Even though TD's example if from rifts.]

However, my opinion is that the absolute max AR a armor can have is 21. With a nat 20 still passing through the armor to the char wearing it, but not as a crit. strike damage. To be more effective the armor would need to have a Nat AR. Nat AR's would start at a score of 4.

The mechanics of a Nat. AR4 is the same concept as with Force Fields, if is hits it hits the armor, if the attack is misses, it misses. There is no hitting and bouncing off as is possible with higher Nat AR scores.

PS: I think the Nat.AR for armor is called Robotic AR *shrugs* The problem is that in HU2 the AR in the robotics section is not specifically defined as ether like normal AR or as like Nat AR. It is written as if the player already knows which it is. This is a fault that has been argued over in this forum before. I am not going to be a part of it if someone wants to start it up again here.

no technical reason? Bonus to strike from dex +8, from WP +6, from hth +6, superior quality wep +2, and from enchantments +4 for a grand total of 26 (and this doesnt even count additional buffs gained from a mage casting spells on you...) I would say thats a pretty good reason to allow AR to go higher...
And in HU I can get a first level char to at least a +25 without too much effort...

Iczer wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I can see no technical reason for having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls. [Note I am not disagreeing with TD, nor DM about it's max use in canon. Even though TD's example if from rifts.]

However, my opinion is that the absolute max AR a armor can have is 21. With a nat 20 still passing through the armor to the char wearing it, but not as a crit. strike damage. To be more effective the armor would need to have a Nat AR. Nat AR's would start at a score of 4.

The mechanics of a Nat. AR4 is the same concept as with Force Fields, if is hits it hits the armor, if the attack is misses, it misses. There is no hitting and bouncing off as is possible with higher Nat AR scores.

PS: I think the Nat.AR for armor is called Robotic AR *shrugs* The problem is that in HU2 the AR in the robotics section is not specifically defined as ether like normal AR or as like Nat AR. It is written as if the player already knows which it is. This is a fault that has been argued over in this forum before. I am not going to be a part of it if someone wants to start it up again here.

no technical reason? Bonus to strike from dex +8, from WP +6, from hth +6, superior quality wep +2, and from enchantments +4 for a grand total of 26 (and this doesnt even count additional buffs gained from a mage casting spells on you...) I would say thats a pretty good reason to allow AR to go higher...
And in HU I can get a first level char to at least a +25 without too much effort...

I am suspicious.

Batts

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Iczer wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I can see no technical reason for having a AR greater the 20 to counter mod'ed strike rolls. [Note I am not disagreeing with TD, nor DM about it's max use in canon. Even though TD's example if from rifts.]

However, my opinion is that the absolute max AR a armor can have is 21. With a nat 20 still passing through the armor to the char wearing it, but not as a crit. strike damage. To be more effective the armor would need to have a Nat AR. Nat AR's would start at a score of 4.

The mechanics of a Nat. AR4 is the same concept as with Force Fields, if is hits it hits the armor, if the attack is misses, it misses. There is no hitting and bouncing off as is possible with higher Nat AR scores.

PS: I think the Nat.AR for armor is called Robotic AR *shrugs* The problem is that in HU2 the AR in the robotics section is not specifically defined as ether like normal AR or as like Nat AR. It is written as if the player already knows which it is. This is a fault that has been argued over in this forum before. I am not going to be a part of it if someone wants to start it up again here.

no technical reason? Bonus to strike from dex +8, from WP +6, from hth +6, superior quality wep +2, and from enchantments +4 for a grand total of 26 (and this doesnt even count additional buffs gained from a mage casting spells on you...) I would say thats a pretty good reason to allow AR to go higher...
And in HU I can get a first level char to at least a +25 without too much effort...

I am suspicious.

Batts

Come on icezr.
You know HU better than most.
You can't come up with a power and skill combo that hits or exceeds +25 strike?

Iczer wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Come on icezr.
You know HU better than most.
You can't come up with a power and skill combo that hits or exceeds +25 strike?

I could..but I don't know a GM that would allow it.

Batts

green.nova343 wrote:I think there are some assumptions being made about those bonuses. First off, the only standard HTH skill that offers +6 strike is Assassin...which is limited to "evil" characters, and only gets that high at 15th level. Even Physical Training characters with their special variants only max out at +4 to +5...and then only at very high levels (i.e. 12th or higher). And while the Ancient Master starts off at reaches it the quickest (+6 by 9th level, +8 by 12th level), that's only because he starts off at 1st level with combat training equivalent to someone with HTH: Martial Arts at 15th level.

Note, as well, that while the Ancient Master & Physical Training can benefit from some of their automatic physical skills to boost their P.P. score, they don't have access to superpowers that provide them with additional bonuses.

So while you can build such a character with a very high strike bonus, I would be highly surprised if they were a "starting-level" character, or even "experienced", & would have to be of such high level that they work better as an "arch-boss' NPC for your players to fight against, not use in their fights.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Iczer wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Come on icezr.
You know HU better than most.
You can't come up with a power and skill combo that hits or exceeds +25 strike?

I could..but I don't know a GM that would allow it.

Batts

Really?
With just powers and stats I got a book legal +17. (never even looked past the core book)
I am fairly confident that with skills I can squeeze out another +8.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

green.nova343 wrote:I think there are some assumptions being made about those bonuses. First off, the only standard HTH skill that offers +6 strike is Assassin...which is limited to "evil" characters, and only gets that high at 15th level. Even Physical Training characters with their special variants only max out at +4 to +5...and then only at very high levels (i.e. 12th or higher). And while the Ancient Master starts off at reaches it the quickest (+6 by 9th level, +8 by 12th level), that's only because he starts off at 1st level with combat training equivalent to someone with HTH: Martial Arts at 15th level.

Note, as well, that while the Ancient Master & Physical Training can benefit from some of their automatic physical skills to boost their P.P. score, they don't have access to superpowers that provide them with additional bonuses.

So while you can build such a character with a very high strike bonus, I would be highly surprised if they were a "starting-level" character, or even "experienced", & would have to be of such high level that they work better as an "arch-boss' NPC for your players to fight against, not use in their fights.

no... I am pretty sure I could build a book legal level one hero with a bonus to strike high enough to render armor moot.

green.nova343 wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

green.nova343 wrote:I think there are some assumptions being made about those bonuses. First off, the only standard HTH skill that offers +6 strike is Assassin...which is limited to "evil" characters, and only gets that high at 15th level. Even Physical Training characters with their special variants only max out at +4 to +5...and then only at very high levels (i.e. 12th or higher). And while the Ancient Master starts off at reaches it the quickest (+6 by 9th level, +8 by 12th level), that's only because he starts off at 1st level with combat training equivalent to someone with HTH: Martial Arts at 15th level.

Note, as well, that while the Ancient Master & Physical Training can benefit from some of their automatic physical skills to boost their P.P. score, they don't have access to superpowers that provide them with additional bonuses.

So while you can build such a character with a very high strike bonus, I would be highly surprised if they were a "starting-level" character, or even "experienced", & would have to be of such high level that they work better as an "arch-boss' NPC for your players to fight against, not use in their fights.

no... I am pretty sure I could build a book legal level one hero with a bonus to strike high enough to render armor moot.

I'm not 100% sure that it can be really be done, though, or at least to allow for an effective attack to get through A.R.

Part of the problem is the nature of the bonuses themselves. While quite a few of the APS and Control Element powers provide a hefty +3 or +4 strike bonus, it's for a particular attack, one which may not be particularly powerful (1d6 or 2d6 S.D.C. is about comparable to a 9mm Parabellum pistol round). A similar situation arises from the Speed-based powers: you get that particular bonus when using that power, but it doesn't stack with the other powers. Taking Extraordinary Speed & Sonic Speed doesn't stack, because Sonic is faster, so it trumps the lower one. Sonic Flight is faster than Flight: Winged or Wingless, so it again trumps but doesn't stack. And you can't stack Extraordinary Speed with Flight: Wingless: the latter only applies when flying, & the former is only applying because you're using your legs on the ground. So at best, boosted speed gives you +2. Growth gives you a bonus if you're over 20ft tall... but logically I think we can assume it's because your feet/hands are larger than normal, not because you're so much more accurate, which would also mean that it doesn't apply to superpowers or ranged weapons. Extraordinary PP boosts your PP score...but the strike bonus maxes out at PP 30, & only applies to HTH attacks & superpowers (no ranged attacks).

That leaves you with Karmic Power (+2 strike, as long as it's a good cause), Underwater Abilities (+1, +2 strike underwater), & Radar (+2 strike, as long as weather conditions don't blind you).

Now, if you pick those 3 powers I just mentioned with Extraordinary PP (with PP 30+), and you take HTH: Assassin (which requires an evil alignment), then you can get a 1st level character with a +17 strike (+18 in the water)...but that's only good for punches (1d4 SDC) and kicks (1d6 SDC). Ancient weapons can maybe add a +1 to that, but you're still not talking about a lot of damage (maybe 2d6 SDC tops). Modern weapons offer much better damage... but the character would have much lower bonuses (+3 aimed for his W.P., maybe +4 for Karmic Power & Radar, not sure if the +1/+2 from Underwater Abilities would apply), only +7, maybe +8/+9 tops. While that gives you a decent chance to penetrate body armor, it's nowhere near a definitive armor killer. And that's with the old-style W.P. skills; with the newer RUE/BTS2/Shadow Chronicles WP skills, your aimed shot goes down to +1, with careful aim/called shots requiring 2 actions & a carefully aimed shot requiring 3 (careful aim gets you another +2).

So, while it's doable, the benefit isn't as great as you'd think.

That leaves you with Karmic Power (+2 strike, as long as it's a good cause), Underwater Abilities (+1, +2 strike underwater), & Radar (+2 strike, as long as weather conditions don't blind you).

Now, if you pick those 3 powers I just mentioned with Extraordinary PP (with PP 30+), and you take HTH: Assassin (which requires an evil alignment)

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Eh, I only use the natural roll to strike to determine armor penetration. bonuses to strike come into play to see if one hits the target.
This has worked for my group of almost 15 yrs and has worked for several other groups I was in during that time. So "naner-naner-naner-naner-naner-naner-naner-naner-naner-"

Damian Magecraft wrote:robotic and natural AR are identical in mechanical effect. If you do not roll over the AR no damage is applied.

Regularguy wrote:

you take HTH: Assassin (which requires an evil alignment)

If it requires an evil alignment, how are you combining it with Karmic Power?

Armorlord wrote:I could swear I've seen a ruling that said full EBA gear was effectively AR 20 in SDC settings.
Which is to say that on fully-covering suits, you can't actually bypass them completely.

jonger wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

green.nova343 wrote:I think there are some assumptions being made about those bonuses. First off, the only standard HTH skill that offers +6 strike is Assassin...which is limited to "evil" characters, and only gets that high at 15th level. Even Physical Training characters with their special variants only max out at +4 to +5...and then only at very high levels (i.e. 12th or higher). And while the Ancient Master starts off at reaches it the quickest (+6 by 9th level, +8 by 12th level), that's only because he starts off at 1st level with combat training equivalent to someone with HTH: Martial Arts at 15th level.

Note, as well, that while the Ancient Master & Physical Training can benefit from some of their automatic physical skills to boost their P.P. score, they don't have access to superpowers that provide them with additional bonuses.

So while you can build such a character with a very high strike bonus, I would be highly surprised if they were a "starting-level" character, or even "experienced", & would have to be of such high level that they work better as an "arch-boss' NPC for your players to fight against, not use in their fights.

no... I am pretty sure I could build a book legal level one hero with a bonus to strike high enough to render armor moot.

most good gms that know the system can the point is whats the max ar..