Pure Chi Creature mortality

[Tor]

Does anyone know how creatures like the Foxes and the Infernals (or those who become Reformed Demons, initially) can die, or can they die at all?

I'm not really sure how it works. I know later on reformed demons can't turn into pure chi anymore and they get HP, at that point I understand them to be mortal just like any other being.

But how do the creatures work before that point? They never have hit points, and they only seem to have SDC when they trade in chi to create a temporary physical form.

If these creatures have their SDC depleted when in physical form, do they die, or do they just lose their shell and have to build a new one?

Can they die in pure chi form? All I can figure is maybe if their chi is reduced to 0 in pure chi form that they die? Or do they just go dormant until they can regenerate it?

If they did die with 0 chi without a body, what happens if they make a body and then run out of chi, but still have SDC?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Does anyone know how creatures like the Foxes and the Infernals (or those who become Reformed Demons, initially) can die, or can they die at all? They would have to loose all their Chi and have any physical form destroyed to be killed.

I'm not really sure how it works. I know later on reformed demons can't turn into pure chi anymore and they get HP, at that point I understand them to be mortal just like any other being.

But how do the creatures work before that point? They never have hit points, and they only seem to have SDC when they trade in chi to create a temporary physical form.

If these creatures have their SDC depleted when in physical form, do they die, or do they just lose their shell and have to build a new one? The just the physical form is just destroyed.

Can they die in pure chi form? All I can figure is maybe if their chi is reduced to 0 in pure chi form that they die? Or do they just go dormant until they can regenerate it? When they are in a pure chi form, if they reach 0 Chi they die.

If they did die with 0 chi without a body, what happens if they make a body and then run out of chi, but still have SDC? If they have created a physical form, then even if their chi is damage down to 0 Chi, they still have the Chi that is invested in the Physical form.

Some of these are expolations of what are in the book, and others are opinions based on over a decade of thinking on the subject.

[Tor]

Hm, so in general, it's probably a good idea for these beings not to invest ALL their chi into an SDC form so that if it gets destroyed they'll be able to survive on that 1 remaining chi.

Not to mention that if you have very little chi like that, it's probably harder for people to sense it, so you might be able to slip away easier.

I got the impression from reading that they could not regenerate chi spent on SDC until later, but does it say that?

I'm also wondering how that would work in regards to taking damage.

For example: chi creature with 50 chi invests 20 of it to get 20sdc. Can they regen their chi while at full health, or only up to 30 chi?

Said creature takes 5 damage, reducing their SDC to 15. Does this let them regenerate 5 more chi, since it is freed up from SDC form?

Alternatively, can the SDC heal on its own, or can it only be repaired by investing the regenerated chi into it?

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the text it says that (infernals) can convert their chi(neg) into SDC and/or HP.


Healing SDC.... for reformed demon (at higher levels) and foxes this might happen if they stay in human (or fox) form.

[Tor]

Presumably if they get Chi-atsu (chi healing) as their positive power they could repair it that way (along with HP once they get some).

Then there's the positive and negative skill if someone picked solid chi they could supplement their SDC as a defense on a per-melee basis.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Presumably if they get Chi-atsu (chi healing) as their positive power they could repair it that way (along with HP once they get some).

Then there's the positive and negative skill if someone picked solid chi they could supplement their SDC as a defense on a per-melee basis.

If they get Chi-atsu (chi healing) as their positive power they could repair other people.

A pure chi being would have to gather more of their type of chi to 'heal' themselves.

There are no rules for this, so you would have to make it up. I would go with the Mystic Study's hourly PPE recovery as the basis/foundation to rules about "healing" lost 'base chi' by 'Pure Chi' beings.

If you want an example of a simmiler being in another setting, then the closest is the Phantom race in the first 3G book "Phase World".

[Tor]

Hm, well to use chi-atsu, you'd need to be filled with positive chi, so that would be the type of chi the infernal would have, to be using it.

Chi-atsu repairs both HP/SDC, but until they trade chi in permanently for HP I assume it would be just SDC that gets repaired.

I think they can also only fill themselves with positive chi while in human form, not infernal, so the max SDC they could repair would be 40. More is only possible when changing into infernal form, which requires being in negative.

I think except for the whole 'permanently gaining HP' part that the chi for SDC exchange should be temporary. You're only getting a 1 sdc per chi ratio after all. Chi-atsu gives a 10 per chi ratio so it's not really that unbalanced.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Hm, well to use chi-atsu, you'd need to be filled with positive chi, so that would be the type of chi the infernal would have, to be using it.

Chi-atsu repairs both HP/SDC, but until they trade chi in permanently for HP I assume it would be just SDC that gets repaired.

I think they can also only fill themselves with positive chi while in human form, not infernal, so the max SDC they could repair would be 40. More is only possible when changing into infernal form, which requires being in negative.

I think except for the whole 'permanently gaining HP' part that the chi for SDC exchange should be temporary. You're only getting a 1 sdc per chi ratio after all. Chi-atsu gives a 10 per chi ratio so it's not really that unbalanced.

Remember the assumptions that were made when the text for Chi-astsu was written. That the subjects on the healing is a human. A flesh and Blood being.

Beings of Pure Chi are not Flesh and Blood beings. So thinking of them as if they are F&B beings is faulty.

[Tor]

Since an infernal's third form is 'pure negative chi', that kinda implies their 2 other forms actually are flesh+blood constructs.

Same with the foxes, since they have a 'pure positive chi' form, their fox/human forms could be assumed to be flesh+blood constructs.

That said, under HP, both RCCs say "none, made of pure chi', so that's a bit confusing. Considering that their physical forms trade in chi for SDC, it doesn't seem like they're wholly 'pure chi' but lacking the HP seems to make you lack a the sort of life we'er used to...

I guess this begs questions like 'do these creatures bleed'? Rules for blood loss from injuries, or death blows that inflict damage directly to HP, stuff like that.

I am going to assume that when an Infernal gets HP (a Fox never does) that they operate the same as most races though, even if it is 4 more levels until they become 'completely' human.

If a fox/infernal can't repair their SDC via chiatsu on a 1:10 basis, letting them repair it on a 1:1 basis (like how they constructed it to began with) is probably a fair enough tradeoff though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A Infernal's Primary form is of Pure Neg. Chi. (And the Foxs' Primary form is Pos. Chi)
The infernals' (& foxs') physical forms are just shells. While they may look to be flesh, they are not. They are just constructs.

No, infernals do not get HP unless they specifically convert their -Chi into HP.
Since blood loss is from HP, if there is no HP there can be no blood.

The text does say that infernals can add to their SDC by converting their Chi to SDC(/MDC). They did leave out at what ratio this takes place.

The ratio used in the Spirit fox for making their physical form is 2 +chi per 1 sdc.
In the Reformed demon class the ratio is 1 -chi per SDC.

There is another energy being race that has almost the same formate. It is the Phantom race in the PW book (RDB2) of the 3G setting. It makes a physical form to use to interact with the physical world, but it is not flesh and blood. Even when appears to be.

The only time a spirit fox or infernal can be killed just by destroying their physical form is when they have invested ALL of their chi into it.

[Tor]

Hm I'm not sure on the whole needing HP to bleed issue. I thought in CB1 you took SDC damage before taking HP damage from blood loss. Plus if an earth warlock sculpts a flesh animal in PF they only have SDC, not HP, yet presumably that animal flesh farce bleeds if you cut it.

I think it specifies that the ratio at which chi converts to SDC is 1 to 1. What it wasn't clear on is whether or not they could regenerate that chi or not. The way the chi pool is worded I'm led to assume it can't be regenerated until that SDC is gone.

It begs the question though: if I'm a 100 chi infernal and I trade 30 chi for SDC, and a guy hits me with a baseball bat for 20sdc damage, at that point am I able to regenerate the 70 chi I have left up to 90? At which point, can I just spend it again on the SDC? Transformation can be done in a melee action, and chi-gathering in a melee round, so there don't seem like there are many time limitations there.

[drewkitty ~..~]

100 -chi ----> 70 -chi & 30 SDC----> takes 20 damage-----> 70 -chi & 10 sdc----->changes 20 -chi into sdc------>50 -chi & 30 SDC
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Chi is gained from the environment not 'regenerated'.

Yes, I insist on using the proper words to describe things. Otherwise things get misunderstood.

They would need to go to a place of -chi to regain the -chi they lost though getting damaged.
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100 -chi ----> 70 -chi & 30 SDC----> takes 20 damage-----> 70 -chi & 10 sdc-----> 80 -chi---->go to -chi place-----> gains -chi from -chi place------>back to 100 -chi.
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They do not just "Heal", nor "Regenerate".
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The one -chi : one SDC point ratio I said above was taken from the MC book. Even the part that is was from the reformed demon class.
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Next time please review everything I've posted before posting a question. It appears to me that you are still having trouble getting around the bit that chi entities' physical bodies are just a shell.

If you need an analogy, it is like they are creating a stocking puppet that they can interact with the physical world with. They can move it around at will, but when the puppet is destroyed it does not effect the puppeteer because it was a ghost.

[Tor]

All chi can be restored in an hour of meditation by people with chi abilities. Even when they're not in an environment where they can use the positive/negative ones that allow them to absorb from environment per melee. About the only way possible for someone filled with positive to restore while in a negative place or a negative-filled bro to restore in a positive place.

I do understand that the SDC is a shell (up until the reformed Demon exchanges chi permanently for HP, this is when they lose their ability to go pure Negative, although they can still change from human to demon).

Even though what is constructed is a shell: why can't shells bleed or heal?

What seems unclear is what moments it is okay for the Reformed to be spending chi for sdc. Like do they have to convert all remaining SDC back to chi, go back to pure chi form, and then regenerate chi and entirely rebuild whatever new SDC form they want to make? Or is changing from human>demon or demon>human enough to rebuild lost SDC? Or is a metamorphosis necessary at all?

Gets even more complicated if they select that chi-doubling Supercharge power as one of their Positive/Negative options. If they spend that to get double SDC, does half of it fade away after a day like excess chi would?

100 -chi ----> 70 -chi & 30 SDC----> takes 20 damage-----> 70 -chi & 10 sdc----->changes 20 -chi into sdc------>50 -chi & 30 SDC

In this example: when 20 chi is changed into SDC to restore that lost to damage, can they stay in human form while making the repairs? Does spending the 20 chi mean that since the sum (50+30) is 80, they can regenerate the 50 chi up to 70 chi again?

100 -chi ----> 70 -chi & 30 SDC----> takes 20 damage-----> 70 -chi & 10 sdc-----> 80 -chi---->go to -chi place-----> gains -chi from -chi place------>back to 100 -chi.

Assuming '80 chi' here means that they fill themselves with negative chi and are using Chakuri Chi to regenerate it at a per-melee rapid rate?

Part of the reason I think that allowing the human form to heal normally (or even use Chi-Atsu) while filled with positive chi is that it has the trade-off of making them unable to change into their demon form (or pure neg chi form). That it specifies that they have this ability in human form implies they lack it in Infernal form (and certainly in pure negative chi form).

While the transformation between forms is normally instantaneous, the time it takes to change from positive chi to negative chi is a melee round, so while Chi-atsu would give amazingly superior regeneration abilities to a Reformed Demon (like it does to any human), to be able to use it they can only have 40 SDC at most, making them vulnerable to a quick death from a damaging attack. They can't simply magic themselves away into negative chi form to avoid major dangers like they could if they stayed in negative chi form.

Not only that: but when filled with positive chi, they're vulnerable to negative chi attacks. Presumably if they get reduced to 0 chi then they can't change from positive>negative and thus can't turn into their stronger Infernal form.

Even if they did have chi left over after being attacked by negChi, low chi would make them unable to build much SDC in their infernal form, and they'd have little chi to work with in a pure negative chi form.

I also just noticed that Reformed Demons never appear to get PPE up until the point of the level 10 transformation into a real human. Even then it's not specified but presumably they would like anyone else. The PPE note says 'none: made of pure negative chi' much like the fox spirit. Although some Infernals can apparently hoard it somehow, though I don't know how they manage it.

From levels 1-2 I would agree that a Reformed Demon should be unable to heal at the normal daily rate, since they're always filled with Negative Chi. I think a Fox Spirit should always be able to heal though, since they're always positive.

A Reformed Demon shell, even before it can heal, should be able to bleed though. If that happens they'll probably be all "oh dear, my facade is leaking, I'd better rebuild it". A quick change into negative/demon form and back (if it's instantaneous I wonder if people would even notice?) could allow them to invest chi to repair that SDC and wounds and prevent further bleeding though.