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Ok. I got in my copy of Black Market and have read it. Took me a few days as it’s a very ‘wordy’ book. There is art there, don’t worry but not quite as much as you might expect. There is a LOT of text in there, so you get a LOT of information. Which if you ask me is a good thing.

Overall impression: It’s a good book. Lots of information there on… you guessed it, The Black Market. How they operate, how to be one, how to benefit from them, who they sell to, how they do it and what happens when they do. This book, would have been beneficial far before now. The way it’s written, the black market controls ----HUGE---- parts of the business in North America. Sometimes it appears a bit too much. Well, usually it appears a bit too much. 70%+ of almost everything it mentions is black market. While that is the point of the book, the way it’s presented is, that if you’re looking for these services, it’s HARD to find ones that are NOT Black market. That makes it a bit tough to look at all together. It is a good book though. I would recommend it. It’s got a lot of use, both for players and more so for GMs.

One note before I get into details…. The writing itself on this book was….. weird. I’m not really sure how to qualify it with out sounding mean so I’ll just say it. The actual writing itself had A LOT of grammar errors. I’m not a grammar Nazi. I’m not a Spelling Nazi either. I hate both online. That being said, when even _I_ am wincing at grammar, and spelling and sentence structure, it’s pretty bad. Starting sentences with ‘but’ and ‘and’, not once, but repeatedly is a bad thing. Sentences such as “The Black marketer, his family, friends, cousins and family….” Could be found. As could some seemingly redundant repetition. I just finished reading but the Con Artist’s OOC comes instantly to mind on that part. They named the OOC “Con Artist” the first sentence reads “The Con Artist or “Confidence artist”, is a common feature of the black market and it’s sales operations.” Then like two sentences later in the same paragraph. “The tools of the “confidence artist” – Better known as a “Con artist” or “Con Man” – are sincerity, deception, and trickery.” That’s the OOC title. A definition of the title, and a second definition of the title.. in six lines and about as many sentences. It’s pretty glaring. This happens a few times. I didn’t take notes while reading or anything but it was enough so that it stands out. I’m not sure if that’s bad writing.. or bad editing, or a bit of both. It was enough that you picked it up every 5 or 10 pages or so and kinda blinked.

It’s not guys talking on a forums board or anything. This is a published book we’re payin’ $25+shipping for. You’d expect such things to be caught before hand. This doesn’t make the book “Bad”. In fact I still think it’s a good book. It’s just something that’s present that IS noticeable to the point of a few clear ‘huh???’ moments when it comes to writing and content.

The book starts off with a nice “What is the black market” that flat out defines it for you. Incase you had questions. It’s kinda an over view of what the rest of the book is going to tell you in detail. A section on finding the black market and the dichotomy they exist in. They have to be easy to be found by customers but not cops/authorities. It’s here were some of the other strange things start popping up. Setting wise. It feels at times that the book has a sort of Shadowrun feel. There’s talks of Cab drivers and stuff. This is rifts. Big cities are few and far between. How many ‘cab drivers’ have you met in rifts? Nothing huge but a lot of the references seem to indicate you’re in a city and ducking through alleys and relying on cabbies and bar tenders and hookers and such. (( Side note number two, if you took every other book palladium’s ever published and added them together you wouldn’t have half the references to hookers that this book has)).

In this intro section you find a list and percentage of business owned by the black market. It’s here that that “Sorta too much” thing comes in. The list claims that 80% of all body chop shops are run by the BM, 75% of smuggling of ANY Verity, 70% of all underground, 60% of all paid sex, 50% of ALL Arms dealers in North America.. and of the other 50%, HALF of them are unwittingly selling BM stuff. So it’s claiming 75% of any and all weapons sales in North America are hooked to the BM.

For an ‘underground” and ‘highly illegal’ and ‘criminal’ organization…. You wouldn’t think the cops would have a 3 out of 4 chance to pick a shop and be right. I’m ok with them being wide spread but the way it’s presented … the black market OWNS north America. 70.. 75% of stuff is run by them? Ouchy.

It may just be the perception. Still, it is sort of how it’s presented.

One glaring side note. The BM doesn’t do slavery. Only 2% of the slave trade is theirs and it is really really frowned upon. They DO do it.. but it’s rare and nasty and no one really likes it. (( and the cost for slaving is less than recharging an Eclip… really questions why anyone would do it)) Another side note to all the business they deal in.. it says they’ll avoid dealing with Demons… for the most part, but will at times, but Vampires? Oh HEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLL no!! They don’t Deal with vampires. Noone would be a traitor to humanity like that!!

The next section is the BM and others. Like Atlantis, Amazon, Europe, Japan and China. This part is pretty small but it gives you jumping off points if you want.

The next part is on Smuggling routes. The Black Market is --------alllllllllllllll------- about smuggling. They tell you so a few hundred times in the books. Huge sections of the book are dedicated to it and this is the first. There’s three main smuggling routes in North America…. Here’s a small complaint. No maps. Just a few pages of “Starts in this state then kinda goes through that state and can swing up into this other state if it doesn’t go down into that state. A simple map, showing the 5 factions zones of manjor influence and the three smuggling routes, would have been HIGHLY Appreciated. I don’t use rift’s maps that much, here, they’re asking you to not only envision the US map in your head, but to overlay all the Rifts kingdoms in their proper place.. then are drawing imaginary lines and routes (( multiple start and end points mind you.)) over those two overlaid maps… lol It’s a little confusing. ---Really--- Could have used one simple map here.

It goes through a bit about tunnels and Sea smuggling too.

Then it goes into a nice large section on the 5 Black Market Factions. These are the 5 “Crime Families” If you’re in the BM you work for one of them. Even if you’re too stupid to know you do. Even if you don’t think you do. You do. It tells you this about 50 times.

Bandito Arms. Out west, seems to be accidently falling backwards to becoming ‘Western Gun’. They’re black market but they sell stuff openly and are the only ones with massive manufacturing of their own and seem to becoming accidently legit. They seem pretty ok with it too. Their main problem is that they produce SAMUS and the CS is starting to notice. The CS really don’t like that.

The Chicago Network: Goodfella’s in Rifts. This faction operates in the CS, the Supercities, but mostly the burbs. The CS territory is theirs and they’re built like “The Mob”. The biggest faction.

The Immaterial Hand: Small faction out of the magical zone. Specializes in Magic.. because no one else trusts magic. (( Side note here, the book does point out that the CS campaign against magic ---has worked--- and most people, even out side of the CS think magic is scary, evil, wrong and not to be trusted. Naturally the Magic zone and magic kingdoms like Lazlo and stuff don’t think this, but the book says everyone else does and most merc’s won’t touch magic with a 20 foot pole.)

El Oculta: Sort of in between Bandito and the Vamp kingdoms… to be honest this one seemed to be put in to have a “Vicious” or “Blood thirsty” Faction, that cuts off arms and heads and stuff like the Columbian drug cartels. They don’t really do anything Bandito doesn’t do (( in a good way)) and as they don’t really work with the vamp kingdoms… *shrugs* They do outfit vamp hunters but it seems like Bandito could do that. I just got the distinct impression they needed a ‘Bad boy’ faction and this is it.

Le Marche Noir: French mobsters in Free Quebec. They are contesting the Chicago Network for Ironheart. Just like El Oculta seemed to be tapped in to be the ‘mean’ faction. Le Marche Noir seems to be tapped so two factions could be competing.

The rest of the book points out how there’s respect among the factions and they…. Pretty much just get along. Sometimes stuff happens but if you fess up, ain’t no big thing. Respect respect respect… They each stay in their own area… they don’t REALLY compete… they don’t get in each others way, and they don’t mess with each other’s profits. Le Marche Noir.. is the exception.. in that they’re going for Iron heart, which is “The Chicago Networks” Turf.

There’s a lot more detail on each. One thing that stood out was that when talking about Vegas, they did mention dinos and monsters and stuff running around during the day….. and…… -Vampires-.

I don’t think this was meant to be ‘canon’. I think it was just a mistake but it still makes your eyes trip when you read vampires running around in the day.

Next section is “Black Market Internal Structure”. Talks about Favors being Debts. BM Etiquette, then Black Market Hierarchy. The next is internal security. (( In general terms. As in “The camps have this. market towns have this… supply locations have this…))

Next comes “Dealing with authority” which… seems to indicate having the sack to just brazenly walk through checkpoints. *Blinks*

one thing of note, at one point in the book it talks about the CS and their ‘Magic detectors” at checkpoints and stuff. As in technology, not the Dog boys, as the dog boys are spoken of separately. Made me tilt my head a little.

There’s talk about borders and who has what sort and how hard it is to get past them. There’s some nice random roll tables for encountering the CS with in the CS. Be it military or the ISS which apparently is ALL over. Not just the cities. From normal squad level threats all the way up to full out army strike forces. (( better hope you don’t roll those buddy!!!))

It goes on to talk about contraband in the CS. Again here it .. “feels” like they’re describing the CS like Shadowrun cities. It doesn’t say it. It’s just sort of the impression I kept getting when reading through and going “man there’s just not that many CITIES like that. As they surely differenciate between the cities and the MEGA cities. Which are held apart.

One cool thing is the ‘Knowledge Clubs’. Little underground clubs of people who educate each others and members in the CS. “Old” Books (( Ones not printed by the CS)) being a major contraband item. Apparently an awesome one for the BM. As they can print them out side the CS for pennies and then sell them in the CS for big credits.

The next section is one on BM jobs. Not OOC’s. these are jobs the BM might hire your char’s to do “Acquisition Specialist” (( Thief)) Combat medic.. Courier.. Croupier.. ect. Skill requirements and how much they’ll pay is on each. I liked the “Documentarian” myself. Someone sent out to catch on video things. Be it ‘Weird Dbees” or “Third party proof that this assassin kills the guy he’s hired to… You’re not to help.. just get it on tape.. oh.. and don’t get caught.. as the assassin kills that guy” type thing. Lol

The next section, “Playing a Black Marketeer” is a big one, and it’s going to cause some controversy. Every one in the black market gets “Benefits” Benefits are akin to OOC special abilities. And everyone in the black market gets 2 or 3. It also allows for anything shy of Full Cyberknight or Tundra ranger or something to join up. ( and fallen CK’s are welcome!) So… take your normal OOCs, and give them 3 or 4 extra, special abilities or “Benefits” as they call them. One of them being instant loans for people who are BM. Pretty big amounts too but the vig is steep. (( but they then tell you about 5 ways around it))
All Black Market char’s get some of these

ALSO… after you choose your OOC, add your extra ‘Benefits/ abilities’ onto it. You also get…. A free black market business! These have “Operating costs” and “Profit” calculated weekly. Such free business that are offered are… Arms Dealer: Weapons… Arms Dealer: Armor and Vechiles, Drugs, whore house, ect.

Just.. free. Each week you roll your ‘Cost” and then your “Profit”.. The profit rolls are 2 to 3 times bigger than the costs… so unless you really ACE your cost roll and BOTCH your profit roll. You get free money weekly.

Then, you get Black Market “Special Abilities” Which are you guessed it… lol More special abilities. There’s 24 to choose from and you get two or three based on your base OOC. These read sort of like ‘Feats” if you know that sort of thing. Bonus to skills or rolls for some. Free skills at high levels in others. These are tacked ONTO your base OOC, along with the other free stuff.

This means that if you take your OOC, and ‘start off” working for the black market. You get the 2 or 3 benefits for just being a black marketer, including instant loans and … a free business that gives you free money each week, you also get 3 or 4 more special abilities on top of that, which give you bonus’ or skills or ease of more money or equipment, ect.

These are going to make a … “Merc Soldier”((anything really,)) in the black market. A LOT more powerful than a Merc Soldier” in a merc company. He’s going to start off with a lot more money, get free money every week and the black market will not only back him up but loan him money if he needs and he’s going to have extra skills or bonus’ and such.

I’m thinking some people are going to “LOVE” This, and they’ll make every character a black market one to get the benefits. Other people are going to think it’s overpowered. (( Why black market and not… people in the CS, or the NGR, or big merc companies. Ect.))

I don’t know. I’m still digesting but it seems like a pretty big list of extra stuff you get.

The next section is Black Market OCCs. Some interesting things here. Most seem more suited for city life, you see stuff like Shadowrun’s Face, and information brokers, fixers and such.

One that stood out was the “Refurbisher” a black market Operator type that is more like a counterfitter/cleaner of stolen gear. He’ll take gear and get it up to par to sell, or make it look like something else so you can sell it. The write up is pretty fun on them. Saying they see themselves more like artists than grease monkeys but they can do that too. It kinda puts a bit of flash on the Operator OCC and made it fun.

There is a ‘Raider’ here. People have asked about that OOC more than once. Now it’s statted out. (( Note, Raiders are not Black Market, but they can get some of the special abilities anyway.))

Next section is on Black Market Sales outlets. I.E. the stores and traveling merchants. Some random generation tables depending on where you are and what you need in a BM outlet. From Market towns down to whore houses.

The “Traveling shows” part, I’ll admit I skipped. I read it in Vampire Kingdoms 1. I will say that Bradshaw’s art was good here. It didn’t mess up the rest of the book and you kinda got the “Haunted/slaughterhouse Circus” Feel here. For those that love them. New Flooper art.

Then we get to the gear!
Bandito Arms and the Eclip Stations (( It already has it’s own thread, I expect it’ll be debated to oblivion))
Then “BigBore Series weapons” Which are interesting. They’re ---weaker--- than other weapons in Rifts.
On PURPOSE. Not “maintained the power level” they’re actually weaker on purpose. Half to 2/3 weapon damage. They DO have a pretty horrible Knock down effect. (( Which you would think would require MORE damage,)) but yes… an entire line of weapons. Some quite cool, that do less damage. Not ‘It’s a new book so add 1D6 to everything’. Heck there’s a 5 barrel big bore shot gun. Lol. It’s not weak, but hitting someone with FIVE Barrels at once at point blank range only does 4D6+6. Can you imagine how much damage a Laser rifle from Traix or the CS or even Northern gun would do if you hit them with 5barrels at once? Lol

There’s one rifle that will shoot BigBore revolver rounds, BigBore shotgun Rounds, SDC Shot gun rounds, Traix pump rounds, SDC Rifle rounds of what ever caliber, and wooden and silver shotun rounds.

There’s even big bore rail guns. (( Which confuse me a bit.. if you want that much damage why not get a real rail gun and do the damage, instead of buying one that’s purposefuly weaker?)

They even have some sentry guns, like from Aliens!

Don’t worry though, if purposefully weaker guns aren’t your thing, they have new ‘normal’ guns as well. They even have like 5 different lines. W For new west styling, D for ‘Domain of man. That looks like wilks stuff. Black plastic with some silver trim, M for “Merc/Military” which are made out of rugged mdc stuff in NG or CS styling, “P” For pirate like styles, and “E” for exotic, which looks steam punk or Technowizard like.

I’ll take a note to say the art for the weapons is good. Sometimes they’re hit or miss. You won’t like every gun, and some aren’t QUITE as good looking as others, but the Art here is above average. Good stuff.

Next is Vehicles.
This one is…. Weird. They got giant magnetic ball wheel bouncy things.. and the General Grievous/Men In black, giant unicycle wheel thing, then.. a sort of off road transfer truck, then common. Truck, and common ATV. (( both very needed/useful)) but then it kinda flips back to a motorcycle with legs.

The stuff is a sort of Eclectic mix of “cool I’d drive that, or wow that fills a nitch” To “huh??????” lol

Armors and Robots were next. Here’s where Chuck Walton came in. So… yeah Good stuff! My favorite art in the book is here. Page 161, a pair of people in Wrangler Riding body armor. Looks like ScarJo is in the female one. Nice work!!
The shadow boy is here. Which is neat. A mining bot, which is cool in a different way. A few others.

Then you get into Robo critters used for smuggling. From cats, to dogs to giant Trex or other dinos! Avabile in both robo versions (( ME GRIMLOCK!! ME EAT YOUR FACE!!!!!!!!! Another bit of awesome art on the Robo-Trex Chuck!)) and ‘Skin covered” versions.

There are some robo steeds, like a robo Unicorn for gals. Robo Pegasus, Robo raptor (Dino), a Monstrous robo Pegasus. (( Cooler than it sounds)) Even a robo sea horse. (( This had to have been menat for Lumeria but some how got left out. Lol))

The very last part of the book was the magic stuff section. There’s a few drugs, and listening to kevin I expected something REALLY cool.

*looks again* Maybe those pages fell out in mine. There’s two and a half pages and best I can tell.. they don’t do much. One makes you THINK you can fly. (( but you can’t)) so you stand around on one leg effecting a superman pose… stuff like that. There’s some TW armor, including a TW revised Glitter boy type. The Iron Mage, and a TW Samus.



That’s the end. There’s A LOT of good stuff in there. Lots of useful stuff. I do sort of question the ‘bonous package’ that can (( and is OFTEN REPEATED)) go on ANY Ooc. A lot of people are just going to take it for all the benefits and powers. You do get a lot.

There’s still a lot of use in the book. Other than the weird things noted above. 1) The writing/editing being bad. Sentences starting with “And” or “but” repeating itself some times two or three times in a paragraph. Stuff like that 2) It often seems to feel like you’re playing in Shadowrun, where everyone’s in cities with taxi drivers and apartment buildings, and hotels and strip clubs. The “RIFTS” feel can sorta be lost in places. A bit too much focus on urban settings (( of which they’re few and people often only stop through)) 3) That HUGE bonus package for being black market, that’s missing from being military, mercenary, or even magical society type.

The art is good. Mumah has a lot of art in here. I love his stuff. He’s done some better. They felt a smidge rushed, but even rushed his stuff is good. The Mannings, Allen and Brian. Mr Rodrigues. Their stuff is good. Amy Ashbaugh’s stuff in the Merc OOC’s was new and interesting looking. Bradshaw’s stuff was aptly placed. Not just all through the book but in the circus of the damned part, where it could fit in a very “House of 1000 faces” sorta way. Then Chuck Walton coming in with the tech and stuff at the end.

Art is above board for Palladium books. If average for Palladium books woud be 6 or 7 out of 10, this one is easily 8 or 9.

Content.. I’d give a nice firm 7.5 to 8. Lots of good stuff there. Lots of use. Some weirdness. Some stuff that sticks out funny but enough of good solid use that the weirdness doesn’t detract.

I very much felt I got my money’s worth and would recommend it as a buy.

thx for the review I found it interesting. I just wish I had some money to buy books right now!

Pretty spot on review.

Pepsi's right about the whole sex worker thing. I stopped counting after about the 20th time I saw a reference to prostitutes, brothels, working girls, etc. Not exactly out of place given the topic of the book, just kinda excessive.

The robotic Monster Pegasus mount looks freaking awesome, imo.

one would imagine that the focus on urban areas might be because the black market is generally going to found in urban areas more than rural ones.

it sounds like an interesting book, despite the flaws.

does it have any info on credits and/or 'black' credit cards?

glitterboy2098 wrote:one would imagine that the focus on urban areas might be because the black market is generally going to found in urban areas more than rural ones.

it sounds like an interesting book, despite the flaws.

does it have any info on credits and/or 'black' credit cards?

Thing is, they're not. (Found generally in urban areas)) They do go there too, and you can surely find them there, but most of the factions are well well away from the urban cities and stuff. Except for the Chicago Nettwork. And even then, "The burbs" isn't the quite the same as a simple City. Which you hear about but don't really SEE in rifts all that much. Not a 'normal city' with cabs and flower shops and taco bell's and walmarts and what not. Bandito is way out west and secret. The El Oculta is way down south west in the boonies just before you get to vamp kingdoms. The Magical one is small but mostly out of the magical kingdom, and the French one is up around Quebec.

Most of the point seems to be their smuggling through the wilderness or their OWN places. Be it market towns or traveling merchants and what not. It kinda reads both ways. Alot of the book hits like shadow run,while all the stuff above still is the 'focus' of their actual actions.

what i mean is that most of their business is going to be in urban areas, not rural. their headquarters and centers of manufacturing might be in rural areas, but the place your most likely to find a black marketeer or conduct business is going to be predominantly in urban areas.

look at real world drug cartels, for example. the head honcho's have fancy homes in the country, the places the drugs are made tend to be hidden in the country.. but your not going to find many of the actual drug dealers outside of a city.


rural areas tend to be poorer, thus less likely to buy anything. also, there tend to be fewer laws being enforced, so there is less of a drive to use alternative sources to obtain things. and in general, there is less people, creating a much smaller market.

glitterboy2098 wrote:what i mean is that most of their business is going to be in urban areas, not rural. their headquarters and centers of manufacturing might be in rural areas, but the place your most likely to find a black marketeer or conduct business is going to be predominantly in urban areas.

look at real world drug cartels, for example. the head honcho's have fancy homes in the country, the places the drugs are made tend to be hidden in the country.. but your not going to find many of the actual drug dealers outside of a city.


rural areas tend to be poorer, thus less likely to buy anything. also, there tend to be fewer laws being enforced, so there is less of a drive to use alternative sources to obtain things. and in general, there is less people, creating a much smaller market.

*nod* I'm just saying the book reads both ways. It seems to show city's in ways that haven't been shown for Rifts yet, while saying on the other hand they DO find them outside of the citys. In small places, Black Market towns, traveling merchants and what not. It's kinda weird. It's not like it Contradicts itself. It just shows two sides, with out ever linking them in the middle.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:what i mean is that most of their business is going to be in urban areas, not rural. their headquarters and centers of manufacturing might be in rural areas, but the place your most likely to find a black marketeer or conduct business is going to be predominantly in urban areas.

look at real world drug cartels, for example. the head honcho's have fancy homes in the country, the places the drugs are made tend to be hidden in the country.. but your not going to find many of the actual drug dealers outside of a city.


rural areas tend to be poorer, thus less likely to buy anything. also, there tend to be fewer laws being enforced, so there is less of a drive to use alternative sources to obtain things. and in general, there is less people, creating a much smaller market.

*nod* I'm just saying the book reads both ways. It seems to show city's in ways that haven't been shown for Rifts yet, while saying on the other hand they DO find them outside of the citys. In small places, Black Market towns, traveling merchants and what not. It's kinda weird. It's not like it Contradicts itself. It just shows two sides, with out ever linking them in the middle.

There've been a few mentions here and there of cities in the CS that are cities but not fortified cities like Chi-Town. I know there are mentions of them in the RUE and Free Quebec world book. But that's it, mentions only. I've always wanted to get more info on them. Reading your review makes me wonder if that might have been what was going through Kevin's head as he was writing.

I'm eager to get a copy of BM - even more so now that I've read you review Pepsi Jedi (good job on it, btw ). Unfortunately its back to school season for the kiddos... Dad's wants comes after kids' need. *shrugs*

Well I did like the book, and there is plenty of good things to be found and used. Even if you don't use it all, you can find stuff that can be incorporated into your games. Even if you don't choose to play Black Marketeers yourself. Your player characters will likely deal with them at some point. (( Unless they buy all their gear Legit from Northern gun, Wilk's, and or Titan.))

The grammar and editing problems were pretty glaring but it's not every sentence. It's like once every 5.. 10 pages. Which, for a professional book is a touch much, and just enough to where they start standing out, it's not the entire book.

I did skip the traveling shows section. It COULD be new, but at a glance it does seem like a cut and paste. *Pauses a minute* ok. I took a minute. Opened the Vamp Kingdoms 1, and opened Black Market to the first page of Traveling shows.

At first glance it's cut and paste. The first few sentences were 100% alike. But then I found an extra sentence or two in the black market one. So I read a bit more.

I'm not sure if the ORIGINAL write up for Traveling shows was larger, and it was edited down for Vamp Kingdoms 1, OR... if Someone took Vamp kingdoms one and added some to it for Black market.

I didn't read the entire 14 pages (( and that's a pretty small part of the over all book)) but what I DID read, Black Market has everything from Vamp Kingdoms one... with a bit tacked onto it. Again, not sure if the 'longer' version in Black Makret is the original and it was edited down for space in Vamp Kingdoms 1, or if this stuff was added.

At the glance, I didn't see anything GLARINGLY different. I flipped to a few different pages in each and checked, and stuff was either exactly alike or maybe had one or two extra descriptive sentences in it.


So... it's not a 100% cut and paste. There's a bit more here, but it COULD be that the original was cut down, and this time not. You'd have to ask kevin. I can say if you have vamp kingdoms, you can use that one and not miss anything huge. With out going paragraph for paragraph I can't/won't catalog all the differences and someone else is welcome to do so. I'd say... 95% of it is cut and paste. Maybe 5% new, and that new stuff is just very minor additions to the other 95%.

I had Zero use for them 20 years ago. And now with the entire black market book, to use for Black Market stuff. I've got even less use for them now. That being said it's just 14 pages one being a full panel art page. So in the 190 page book. It's a small section that's easily skipped. (( lol I did)) It's not something that should prevent you from buying the book. If you'd have liked it at 180 pages with out the Traveling shows, you'll like it at 190 with them.

I still think it's a good book. I stand by my original rating. 7.5 to 8 out of 10. Other people's milage might vary. if you WANT extra power packages to add to your OCCs for free money and stuff you might like it alot more. If you dislike criminals and crime (( and all told their crime is pretty PG.)) then a bit less. The art is a touch above average for Palladium over the 20+ years. So that's good. (( no Burles!!)).

First of all, thank you very much for the review. Very well done.

About the "grammar and editing problems", as the owner of the "Rifts Black Market - proofreader copy" and "Rifts Black Market - editor's copy of text + photocopies of some art", I can tell you: you have no idea the huge amount of corrections that have been made in those documents...and not just grammar...for example: Naruni Corporation!!! (Naruni Enterprises), etc. Perhaps, it was not enough but you can see the effort being made.

I have promised Jorel in another thread to review both documents and I will do it (I need more time) and I will like to scan the images that didn't make it to post them for you to view them BUT I will ask permission from Alex, Kevin or someone with authority before...I don't want to break the law!

Hey, thanks for the review. Decided I will not spend money on this book. And @ ffranceshi, seriously... Naruni Corporation? If the people who write these books don't even play the game enough to know the dang names, come on! That is just tragic.

If 3 out of 4 business are run by the black market, then why does the Find Contraband skill have such a low base percentage?

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:

Rolling Bear wrote:

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:This is just so sad.

I was really looking forward to buy this book, but it does seem to me that they do not have any real editors on hire (ones that actually know what they do) at Palladium Books or maybe are they to cheap to hire one or two? English is like my 4th language and even I write better that what you gave examples of (and even I cringed at the grammar).

Travelling shows again? That saddens me, it makes me feel that they needed more texts but was unwilling to write anything more and just did the infamous Palladium Books Cut/paste maneuver. Maybe it is just Kevin that edited away so much data from the author that he needed something to fill out what empty pages that were left?

Maybe they have good information, but I seriously doubt that I will buy a copy of this book. If I am to pay $25 + postage and packing, then i expect some high standard of that product. It is sad that palladium Books will not be able to provide that.

You have to realize not everyone buys every single book that is put out so sometimes there are items that will be duplicated so they can reach a wider range of people. Maybe someone could care less about Vamp Kingdom and didn't buy it, therefore they have 0 info about Traveling Shows. It doesn't bother me really I just see it as something that was thought to be important enough to get tacked into another book.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I think that it is a rip-off and just a filling so that Kevin can cheer and brag that he has a 192-pages long book (or how many pages the book is). I would not mind so much if the book was a few pages shorter or that they actually made maps to display all the smuggling routes or the main areas of interest, but no. Instead we have 14 almost reprinted pages from a book that was published just a year ago.
So you do not mind that in the future, that every book that Palladium Books publishes has some 10-15 pages that are reprinted from older books? Because that is what you say is ok. I say that it isn't and I will stand by that. If i am to support this company by buying their books, I want to be able to raise my voice and say my opinion. So I think that I am entitled to mine and I have as much freedom to say that I do not like it as you have defending Paladium Books. So from now on, why just not agree to disagree and go on with our lives.

Just a correction Amanda. The revised and expanded Vampire Kingdoms didn't have the travelling show material in it. The original one put out 20 years ago did and as far as I know is no longer available for purchase so unless they reprint that material in the Vampires Sourcebook due out next, Black market is the only book that will actually have that information in it. Unless of course you have the original Vampire Kingdoms book.

What Special abilities of the Black Marketter do you think can wokr for Other Occ?

Glistam wrote:If 3 out of 4 business are run by the black market, then why does the Find Contraband skill have such a low base percentage?

Nice catch! LOL.

PhellaOne wrote:

Glistam wrote:If 3 out of 4 business are run by the black market, then why does the Find Contraband skill have such a low base percentage?

Nice catch! LOL.

I don't think finding contraband is used in a store to go 'OH THOSE SHELVES OVER THERE" is it?

Edit: Went and re-read it. it does appear to find you the shops and stuff to use. *shrugs* It's weird. There's an entire section on finding the black market in the black market book. Lists of different people to talk to and tables and stuff. Thats' where the 'Cab drivers' first popped up. LOL Pretty much talking to everyone from cab drivers to hookers to bar tenders to street kids can get you there. Making the skill pretty useless now.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Glistam wrote:If 3 out of 4 business are run by the black market, then why does the Find Contraband skill have such a low base percentage?

Nice catch! LOL.

I don't think finding contraband is used in a store to go 'OH THOSE SHELVES OVER THERE" is it?

But given how common it is (75%!), do you think 26% +4%/level really reflects the "new canon"? C'mon now!

PhellaOne wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Glistam wrote:If 3 out of 4 business are run by the black market, then why does the Find Contraband skill have such a low base percentage?

Nice catch! LOL.

I don't think finding contraband is used in a store to go 'OH THOSE SHELVES OVER THERE" is it?

But given how common it is (75%!), do you think 26% +4%/level really reflects the "new canon"? C'mon now!

Yeah I looked it up in RUE and edited my previous post. To be honest, the way it's presented in the BM book you don't need a skill. It's more like "Find someone that's not rich. Ask them. Done." lol

I don't know how much I like the fact that they have tied the BM to EVERYTHING. I understand that they are going to control a majority of the criminal activity in their own territories just like any organized crime faction. What I do not agree with is that they are largely unopposed in their dealings, except by whatever law is present. There would literally be dozens of other criminal organizations that would crop up in a highly populated area. Some would be racist while other would be inclusive.

Sure there are five factions but what about opposition for those organizations. Apparently, only two of those factions have problems with each other. Although, this rivalry seems to follow a gentleman's code. Also, the BM seems to try to crush anyone who opens an illegal business without them. While I can understand this, I think they should have a bit less control of the criminal elements of the continent.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the book for what it provided. I just wish that they had made the BM a little less cohesive then they did.

Icefalcon wrote:I don't know how much I like the fact that they have tied the BM to EVERYTHING. I understand that they are going to control a majority of the criminal activity in their own territories just like any organized crime faction. What I do not agree with is that they are largely unopposed in their dealings, except by whatever law is present. There would literally be dozens of other criminal organizations that would crop up in a highly populated area. Some would be racist while other would be inclusive.

Sure there are five factions but what about opposition for those organizations. Apparently, only two of those factions have problems with each other. Although, this rivalry seems to follow a gentleman's code. Also, the BM seems to try to crush anyone who opens an illegal business without them. While I can understand this, I think they should have a bit less control of the criminal elements of the continent.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the book for what it provided. I just wish that they had made the BM a little less cohesive then they did.

Yeah you kinda expected them to be at each others throats. Not buddy buddy. By that. I mean actual 'Well if they encounter other members of other factions they're trusted and treated with respect as long as they treat you with respect"

Now... you don't have to shoot someone on sight or anything. The overwhelming friendliness amongst the 5 factions surprised me. It's almost like they're one group with Regional differences.

jaymz wrote:
Just a correction Amanda. The revised and expanded Vampire Kingdoms didn't have the travelling show material in it. The original one put out 20 years ago did and as far as I know is no longer available for purchase so unless they reprint that material in the Vampires Sourcebook due out next, Black market is the only book that will actually have that information in it. Unless of course you have the original Vampire Kingdoms book.

If I recall its also reprinted in the Rifts Adventure Guide, but i dont know if that is still in print either

Faceless Dude wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Just a correction Amanda. The revised and expanded Vampire Kingdoms didn't have the travelling show material in it. The original one put out 20 years ago did and as far as I know is no longer available for purchase so unless they reprint that material in the Vampires Sourcebook due out next, Black market is the only book that will actually have that information in it. Unless of course you have the original Vampire Kingdoms book.

If I recall its also reprinted in the Rifts Adventure Guide, but i dont know if that is still in print either

I don;t recall the travelling show rules/creation system being in the Adv Guide. I'll have to recheck....

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

PhellaOne wrote:

Glistam wrote:If 3 out of 4 business are run by the black market, then why does the Find Contraband skill have such a low base percentage?

Nice catch! LOL.

I don't think finding contraband is used in a store to go 'OH THOSE SHELVES OVER THERE" is it?

But given how common it is (75%!), do you think 26% +4%/level really reflects the "new canon"? C'mon now!

Yeah I looked it up in RUE and edited my previous post. To be honest, the way it's presented in the BM book you don't need a skill. It's more like "Find someone that's not rich. Ask them. Done." lol

Could be the skill represents knowing what questions to ask and when or where to ask them. You aren't likely to stroll up to a hooker on the street corner and just ask "Hey where can I get illegal stuff?"

It could also represent finding for the purposes of investigation (similar to detect concealment etc) or to track down a illegal service or product without the aid of others.

Also, I myself think it is safe to say that while the Black Market has their hands in 75% of the non governmental pie, many businesses are in fact legit but owned/controlled by the Black Market as fronts etc in order to move or launder things when necessary.

I am waiting for my copy still so This opinion may change.

What of the Black Marketeer,s Special abilities,you think is the Best?

jaymz wrote:
Could be the skill represents knowing what questions to ask and when or where to ask them. You aren't likely to stroll up to a hooker on the street corner and just ask "Hey where can I get illegal stuff?"

It could also represent finding for the purposes of investigation (similar to detect concealment etc) or to track down a illegal service or product without the aid of others.

Also, I myself think it is safe to say that while the Black Market has their hands in 75% of the non governmental pie, many businesses are in fact legit but owned/controlled by the Black Market as fronts etc in order to move or launder things when necessary.

I am waiting for my copy still so This opinion may change.

Yeah alot of stuff is fronts and some are even ignorant of who they work for, it's just a bit starteling and overwhelming. As for the skill and finding the BM.. mmmmm no. No really. It really is presented pretty much like you stroll up to a hooker and ask "Where can I get illegal stuff" and with the super high percentages of them working FOR/With the black market, they probably know. You might have to slip them a few credits, but yeah. I think street kids had a listing of knowing 95 to 98% of all black market stuff in an area. I remember reading that and being like "Wow... buy um a candy bar and find the black market" lol

I mean if you write 190 pages and a brand new sourcebook on something. You want it found and used. I assume people will tailor it to their games. The overall point though is 'If you're looking for the BM, you're going to find it. Or it'll find you."

I think the skill might be as you said, for a cop/authority/ISS type now. Because noone else seems to have a problem locating them. lol

i would imagine that the investigations skill would be more useful for figuring out how to approach the informants without looking like your some cop. you wouldn't want to just walk up to some random thug/hooker/cityrat/businessman and start asking about where to find blackmarket goods. they'd either assume your working a sting against them, or figure your too dumb to be able to deal with the black market and not advertise the fact in ways the law can see (which would lead to their arrest during the investigation)

so i'd say your investigative skill would be used to find the methods people use to covertly express interest in the black market. it is one thing to know that fred the bartender is a go between for a black market dealer. it is another to know that your supposed to tip Fred-the-bartender an extra 200 credits [minimum] when paying for a drink, and he'll slide a piece of paper with a series of times and locations to wait for a meeting.
to find that out, you'd use your investigative skills to find a person who could tell you how to go about it.

Perhaps in real life.

In the Black Market book though, it's presented a bit differently. More like "Ask a few not poor people that are on this list and you're good to go"

Again they might be making it purposefully easier to find them (( and assuming you're going to role play it out and not just walk in and shout at the top of your lungs that you're looking for the BM))

As presented though, you don't need specialized skills or long drawn out investigations or rolls. It's pretty much "Ask an you shall receive, unless you're cops"

Thank you for the review. It is always refreshing to see reviews from you, Pepsi.

Sounds like a typical Rifts book to me: 90% new content; re-hased content from older books cut and pasted into the new book; numerous editiing and grammar mistakes; new content not jiving with the old content. Will I buy it? Probably. Will I ever use it? I doubt it since I've found very groups who still play Rifts. I'm glad they are still able to publish books, but I certainly don't expect them to all of a sudden change their way of business. I'm sure the review is spot on, thanks PJ.

gaby wrote:What Special abilities of the Black Marketter do you think can wokr for Other Occ?

Many of them. Some give pure plus stats, many give bonuses to skills. Some are good in certain areas such as being known as trustworthy or being known as a stone cold killer. Some are more roleplay type powers but many have actual game play boosts not huge ones but nice.

The one odd thing about the rifts earth given the dangers around even normal farmers and people need some access to heavy MDC weapons to get by even if its just a couple owned by a town. The black market due to the overall lawlessness can act much more openly in this environment than most settings because for the most part there is no law so the black market has a lot less things checking its expansion.

Take a look at Bandito arms they are morphing into basically a western varient of northern gun because so many people need the items they are selling nobody other than the CS has any desire to make it ilegal. In the new west the black market would have to delve into some very icky things to come up with things people care to make ilegal.

Given the black market is also the main supplier of "used" weaponry at cheaper prices you can see their popularity.


Also the big bore stuff falls into this type of thing as well. Its a bit lower powered by design because they don't want to incite the CS or NG. Still they are useful weapons that tend to be cheaper in price and something a person less well off could buy. Joe bob the farmer cannot afford the fanciest gun but if he can afford a big bore gun he can then buy ammo one at a time as needed. He is not going to shoot it much but there are times when a normal person may need some higher powered weaponry and the big bore stuff serves that part of the market. It is kinda like the chipwell marketing plan. While everybody wants the best guns and armor some simply cannot afford them and for those its better to have a bunch of okay guns than one or two high end guns.

For a GM the blackmarket book is a good resource. lots of nice random encounter tables and random shop generation tools which is a nice fast way to build up a town with stuff players care about gun/armor/magic shops and bars.

Ordered and very excited to check out the military arm of the black market as well to see if they have ever went up against the coalition in any type of military styled encounter!!!!

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:I am just curious if they will reprint stuff about the travelling shows in Vampire Sourcebook, as Kevin Siembeda announced in Vampire Kingdoms: revised, that travelling shows would be reprinted in that one. Just feel like a waste of space to me. If they publish the same 14-15 pages in two books that will (supposedly) be published the same year

They will not reprint the travelling shows in the Vampire Sourcebook.

Amanda-Cha'at wrote:I am just curious if they will reprint stuff about the travelling shows in Vampire Sourcebook, as Kevin Siembeda announced in Vampire Kingdoms: revised, that travelling shows would be reprinted in that one. Just feel like a waste of space to me. If they publish the same 14-15 pages in two books that will (supposedly) be published the same year

Now that it is in black market I doubt we will see it in vampire kingdoms. Since both books are being worked on at the same time shifting it from one book to the other is not a big deal.

Ok I can not wait, what type of military arm does the black market have anyone who has the no feel free to answer this please?

Thanks very much for the honest review! Looking forward to getting this from my FLGS!

Awesoem and wonderfully written and detialed review Pepsi-Jedi! Thank you for the compliments and I am enjoying the thread and seeing what ppl are interested in when dealing with BM. So many directions.

Well at least for their relations, there are plenty of examples today and in history were black market groups and organized crime groups have coexisted fairly peacefully. Turf wars and stuff happen of course, but also plenty of fairly peacful coexistance. You stay on your side of town, I'll stay on my side of town? Got it?

As for independent operates and such forth, I also have a hard time grasping how the 5 organizations could have their hands in 75% of the stuff. A very large minority and maybe in some towns they have have majority control (or at least partial interest) in a few illicit (and some legal) businesses. I just have a hard time imagining that they have 75% control over all illegal and legal weapons sales for example. All the previously books made it sounds like the vast majority of weapons dealers were above the board and legal, maybe with the exception of in the CS where most of the stuff was underground/BM stuff. Even with "shadow interest" or legal interest in legitimate weapons dealers, I still just have a hard time picturing that much control everywhere by the 5 BM factions.

If you told me that there were 5 major BM factions, but dozens of smaller "BM factions" that were limited to town/city specific groups, then I might believe the 75% and think it is plausible. I could see the big 5 controlling regional BM stuff, but get in to a specific town and there might be 2-4 "gangs" and maybe 1-3 organized crime groups in addition to the regional BM faction controlling basically all illicit activities in the area with the regional BM faction maybe controlling 20-80% of the stuff depending on where it is and everything.

1 gang might control illicit substances. Another might control the bars, strip clubs and cat houses. Another might control the gambling halls. One might be the local gun runner. Possibly another one controls EVERYTHING in their little section of the city. The regional BM group might be associated on some level with several of those groups (might be suppliers for example) and probably controls their own little slice of operations in part of the city or controls one of the major illicit industries in whole or in large part (maybe they handle all of the smuggling in to the city, or maybe the illegal weapons dealers, or maybe the dog races or something).

As the artist chosen for what seems to be the wonkiest vehicles in the book... you have know idea how odd it felt to actually be drawing them...

azazel1024 wrote:
If you told me that there were 5 major BM factions, but dozens of smaller "BM factions" that were limited to town/city specific groups, then I might believe the 75% and think it is plausible. I could see the big 5 controlling regional BM stuff, but get in to a specific town and there might be 2-4 "gangs" and maybe 1-3 organized crime groups in addition to the regional BM faction controlling basically all illicit activities in the area with the regional BM faction maybe controlling 20-80% of the stuff depending on where it is and everything.

1 gang might control illicit substances. Another might control the bars, strip clubs and cat houses. Another might control the gambling halls. One might be the local gun runner. Possibly another one controls EVERYTHING in their little section of the city. The regional BM group might be associated on some level with several of those groups (might be suppliers for example) and probably controls their own little slice of operations in part of the city or controls one of the major illicit industries in whole or in large part (maybe they handle all of the smuggling in to the city, or maybe the illegal weapons dealers, or maybe the dog races or something).

That is how it's presented.

There's the 5 major factions. The "Big boys" and then there's dozens if not 100s of regional or local groups that handle the business for those areas. They're just 'under the umbrella' of the 5 major factions. It states that they sometimes dont' even "know" that they work for the Factions, but that doesn't change the fact that they do.

If memory serves 1/3 of Criminal stuff is under "The Five Factions"
then there's another 1/3 of Criminal stuff that is "General" black market (( That 'are' under the 5 factions but don't name themselves as such. They might be part of the Get along gang or something but they pay out to the Factions or work with/for them
Then there's the last 1/3 of criminal stuff that's somewhat freelance. They operate in places the BM doesn't or in places were there's so much to do that the BM doesn't cover it all and they pick up the leftovers.

There's a separate table for what percentages of things the BM covers. I think for weapons, armor, robots and stuff a full out 50% was claimed under the black market, then it said half of the remainder of 'legitimate' businesses are stocked by Black Market as well.

(( My numbers may be a bit off. If so, not on purpose. I read the book a week ago. Been a busy week, my kid in for surgery and stuff.))

Lenwen wrote:Ok I can not wait, what type of military arm does the black market have anyone who has the no feel free to answer this please?

The book really doesn't address that. Not that I can tell. The book really aims at giving a high level breakdown on the BM and then how to have PCs connected to it. Lots of room for GM interpretation. The only real military arm stuff I noticed was how Bandito responds to people snooping around Area 51.

C. Chopps

Are ther any one of the 5 Factions do you think would make a Good Villains in a H.U,s Game?

(Edited and removed)

gaby wrote:Are ther any one of the 5 Factions do you think would make a Good Villains in a H.U,s Game?

The thing about the 5 factions is they're pretty set up to be Rifts stuff. Bandito is set up in Area 51, the Chicago Network is, basicly just the 'mob' but set up in the CS, the magical faction is based out of the magic zone and alot of what they do is based around rifts and such. The french one is a 'Free Quebec' thing. ect.

For HU, just use real black market type things. use the Yakuza, or the Triads, or the Mob, or the Vory, or the Columbians. With HU you know they've hired on some supers to aid them in their criminal stuff. Heck you could make up a gang or organization that's ruled by supers.

I was reading the BB section about the Projectile. (page 137)

"Whether a BigBore projectile is called a bullet, round or shell is mostly a matter of style since they all pretty much the same thing."
This whole sentence is a lie.

Projectile and Bullet have the almost the same meaning, because bullets are a sub-set of projectiles. They are what is thrown/shot away from the thrower/shooter. With Bullet having an additional meaning of being small and compact.
example: the stones David used with his sling are bullets. Arrows, darts, knives, cannon balls, cars would just be projectiles.

Round and Shell have very similar meanings. They are the packages of Projectile, propellent primer, and (if there is any) the case into which they are held in/with. The difference is that Rounds mean the package is meant for use with rifles or pistols. Where Shell has the meaning that the package is meant for use in a shotgun.

To sum up, No, they are not the same things. The projectile/Bullets are the bits that end up moving really really fast, and rounds/shells are the packaged units you buy at the (ammo) store.

side notes: *Yes, yes, exploding canon projectiles are called shells, that comes from the bit that they are hollow before packed with explosives. Thus the only the outer bit is made of metal, the shell.
*But if you look at a shotgun shell you see that it is a outer layer covering softer inner bits, sort of like a snail of clam.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I was reading the BB section about the Projectile. (page 137)

"Whether a BigBore projectile is called a bullet, round or shell is mostly a matter of style since they all pretty much the same thing."
This whole sentence is a lie.

Projectile and Bullet have the almost the same meaning, because bullets are a sub-set of projectiles. They are what is thrown/shot away from the thrower/shooter. With Bullet having an additional meaning of being small and compact.
example: the stones David used with his sling are bullets. Arrows, darts, knives, cannon balls, cars would just be projectiles.

Round and Shell have very similar meanings. They are the packages of Projectile, propellent primer, and (if there is any) the case into which they are held in/with. The difference is that Rounds mean the package is meant for use with rifles or pistols. Where Shell has the meaning that the package is meant for use in a shotgun.

To sum up, No, they are not the same things. The projectile/Bullets are the bits that end up moving really really fast, and rounds/shells are the packaged units you buy at the (ammo) store.


side notes: *Yes, yes, exploding canon projectiles are called shells, that comes from the bit that they are hollow before packed with explosives. Thus the only the outer bit is made of metal, the shell.
*But if you look at a shotgun shell you see that it is a outer layer covering softer inner bits, sort of like a snail of clam.

Doesn't matter. It's Science fiction and a game.

Keep reading till you find the rifle that will accept any SDC bullet you can find, traix bullets, big bore shells, shot guns ect.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's Science fiction

Which means correctness and accuracy, when possible, is even more important.

--flatline

Glad people are enjoying the book.

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's Science fiction

Which means correctness and accuracy, when possible, is even more important.

--flatline

It's Rifts. As soon as the first magical, psionic, teleporting dragon or Mega damage laser gun enter the scene, "Correctness and accuracy" are in the eye of the beholder and largely optional. It's correct in the world of Rifts. Science is in general 'like' our world but not 100%.

It's a RPG. If they want to call something a shell or a bullet, or what ever. Who cares? I'm a gun owner. I've seen guys FLIP OUT When someone calls a Magazine a "clip". There's no point to it. Noone cares. Those that do, tend to do so just to be jerks. It's the same type of guy that will go to a sci fi movie and then very loudly tell the rest of the people around them "In REALITY.... You wouldn't hear any explosions in space.... Gaw! It's so unrealistic!" But the space ships and light sabers and laser cannons and stuff are just fine. Noone likes that guy. We all know you can't hear explosions in space, but we're wacting a science fiction movie. Not a documentary.

"Correcting" A scifi/fantasy rpg on gun terms is just silly. It's what ever they feel like calling it. Is it not what we call it? Well, there's been a few 100 years in scienctific development, then a world wide Apocalypse, and 200 years of darkness where most of humanity has lost the ability to spell. Much less have "Book correct definitions" more over the item in question is developed by a criminal organization, after the 200 years of dark ages, and 100 years of crawling up out of the abyss. We're lucky they're not called 'Gats' or something.



I guess what I'm trying to say is "What's 'correct' for us doesn't matter, if in the setting, parlance has changed. language evolves. Sometimes words change meaning. "Bad" can mean bad, but since the 80s, sometimes 'bad' means good or awesome. More recently "Sick" has taken on a new meaning, also possibly meaning "Awesome". (( I rather dislike that one))

at least 300 to 400 years of linquistic drift in RIFTS UNIVERSE... the stuff is called what ever the writers say it's called.

If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

Page 149
"RPM-6X Skymaster Rocket-Propelled Mortar"
As the words stand, they describe a mobile Mortar vehicle that moves via rockets. Other names that share the phrase form are "Self propelled Artillery"

It should of been names "RPM-6X Skymaster Rocket Mortar" which describes what the item is.
----------------------------

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's Science fiction

Which means correctness and accuracy, when possible, is even more important.

--flatline

It is nice to hear a voice that agrees with me instead of the "I really don't care it is wrong and you are a stupid to care." ones. (BY the way Mod's I was just translating what was said into what was meant. Not saying anything that way not already said several times, several different ways, in many different topics in subtext by different someones about me. I am just sick of it. So the only ones that might be offended at me calling their bluff, are the ones doing it.)

*shrugs* Not that I expect any of these "mis-wordings" to be corrected in any subsequent printing
--------------------------------
PJ
Yes, Know the next part was about SD shotgun shells being able to fit the BB weapons. My point was that the writer deliberately said a lie about what the words mean. Besides, since the BB ammo is packaged like rifle & pistol ammunition today it would be right for the unexpended packages to be called rounds.
--------------------------------

flatline wrote:If there's no science, then quit calling it science fiction.

God forbid that a game could have any sort of educational value besides adding pips on dice.

--flatline

But a game that had a functional value in educating people in a RPG would be High Art indeed. Once read a sci-fi book where there was a movement in a Col States like culture that used Role Playing Games to teach the populous basic things like encumbrance and other.