Problems with Physical Training

[Mediapig71]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

[Juce734]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

May not be realistic but this is a game that has mutants, aliens, and other fictional things. Even with that being the case your 6,000 pounds is still not realistic.

I don't see any reason to change it. For your games that is fine but I am ok with how the book reads for this.

[Mediapig71]

Sure, each to their own. I don;t need the game to be realistic, but for me, that strains my belief too much. Maybe I'll just limit trained human Strength to a max of 24 or something. Of course, I agree 6000 lbs is unrealistic as well, but once you approach the 10k mark, I just can't go with the flow anymore.

[Regularguy]

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

I kinda figured the idea was -- well, picture the classic ninety-pound mom who gets a panicked surge of adrenaline when she absolutely has to lift that car off her kid. And now picture a guy who relentlessly trains himself to trigger that same desperate burst of car-lifting strength at need, and factor in that he's built like an Olympic decathlon champ or something.

[Nightmask]

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

I kinda figured the idea was -- well, picture the classic ninety-pound mom who gets a panicked surge of adrenaline when she absolutely has to lift that car off her kid. And now picture a guy who relentlessly trains himself to trigger that same desperate burst of car-lifting strength at need, and factor in that he's built like an Olympic decathlon champ or something.

Physical Training would be Palladium's version of the 'Charles Atlas Superpower' trope that was particularly common in the Golden Age and Silver Age of comics, whereby someone just by clean living and dedicated training became physically more powerful than a real human being could ever achieve. Given it's a comic verse with different physics/genetics it's also possible if not likely that they aren't like our normal humans (much like the humans of the Pokemon Setting are clearly not normal from our perspective: just look at how Ash routinely shrugs off electrical blasts that should kill him) and such abilities with training are completely normal.

[Incriptus]

When I played my last physical training I attached myself to the line "... have enabled them to transcend what we consider to be ordinary humans"*. I would see my character as more of an eastern comic/manga character than a western one. I just tried to accept that a normal human could be blatantly superhuman with enough push-up's and chi! My character was also playing in the same group with superbeings, often with 2 major's 1 minor super power, so it really kept me competitive in a fight. If I were playing in a more 'street level' game, like my current N&SS / HU game, I would probably have willingly lowed it to Ex PS, or just focus on speed & agility.

*Last sentence of paragraph one under Step 3: Determining Abilities - Physical area of expertise.

[Nightmask]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

As a personal fan of the Class (see what I've added to it), I actually agree with you. I always thought Superhuman Strength was a tad much and it makes a lot more sense to give them the different talent and focus bonuses. The only problem is the overpowering nature of Extraordinary P.P. I'd neuter it to the level that Strength/Endurance gets Extraordinary P.S. (with full P.S. bonuses for lifting, since the character might not even use the Strength for anything but a P.S. bonus to damage), while Agility and Speed gets Heightened Sense of Balance, and Lightning Reflexes instead. Heck I'd go so far as to offer options for some of the characters; why shouldn't a Strength/Endurance character get Increased Durability, Heavyweight, or Giant instead of Superhuman or Extraordinary Strength? Or the Speed and Agility guy gets Daredevil (From the Black Vault Wiki), Heightened Sense of Awareness, Danger Sense, or Impact Resistance (an agile character should be able to move in such a manner as to avoid a bad impact with the high P.P. and all).

So you think Superhuman Strength is going too far but training for outright super-powers including something as extreme as Growth makes more sense?

[Damian Magecraft]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

As a personal fan of the Class (see what I've added to it), I actually agree with you. I always thought Superhuman Strength was a tad much and it makes a lot more sense to give them the different talent and focus bonuses. The only problem is the overpowering nature of Extraordinary P.P. I'd neuter it to the level that Strength/Endurance gets Extraordinary P.S. (with full P.S. bonuses for lifting, since the character might not even use the Strength for anything but a P.S. bonus to damage), while Agility and Speed gets Heightened Sense of Balance, and Lightning Reflexes instead. Heck I'd go so far as to offer options for some of the characters; why shouldn't a Strength/Endurance character get Increased Durability, Heavyweight, or Giant instead of Superhuman or Extraordinary Strength? Or the Speed and Agility guy gets Daredevil (From the Black Vault Wiki), Heightened Sense of Awareness, Danger Sense, or Impact Resistance (an agile character should be able to move in such a manner as to avoid a bad impact with the high P.P. and all).

So you think Superhuman Strength is going too far but training for outright super-powers including something as extreme as Growth makes more sense?

Giant =/= growth
And of the ones he chose?
they make more sense than Superhuman PS (X100/X200 carry/lift)

[Nightmask]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

As a personal fan of the Class (see what I've added to it), I actually agree with you. I always thought Superhuman Strength was a tad much and it makes a lot more sense to give them the different talent and focus bonuses. The only problem is the overpowering nature of Extraordinary P.P. I'd neuter it to the level that Strength/Endurance gets Extraordinary P.S. (with full P.S. bonuses for lifting, since the character might not even use the Strength for anything but a P.S. bonus to damage), while Agility and Speed gets Heightened Sense of Balance, and Lightning Reflexes instead. Heck I'd go so far as to offer options for some of the characters; why shouldn't a Strength/Endurance character get Increased Durability, Heavyweight, or Giant instead of Superhuman or Extraordinary Strength? Or the Speed and Agility guy gets Daredevil (From the Black Vault Wiki), Heightened Sense of Awareness, Danger Sense, or Impact Resistance (an agile character should be able to move in such a manner as to avoid a bad impact with the high P.P. and all).

So you think Superhuman Strength is going too far but training for outright super-powers including something as extreme as Growth makes more sense?

Giant =/= growth
And of the ones he chose?
they make more sense than Superhuman PS (X100/X200 carry/lift)

So you think someone training himself to be 10' tall somehow makes more sense than training himself to be stronger...

[Damian Magecraft]

As a personal fan of the Class (see what I've added to it), I actually agree with you. I always thought Superhuman Strength was a tad much and it makes a lot more sense to give them the different talent and focus bonuses. The only problem is the overpowering nature of Extraordinary P.P. I'd neuter it to the level that Strength/Endurance gets Extraordinary P.S. (with full P.S. bonuses for lifting, since the character might not even use the Strength for anything but a P.S. bonus to damage), while Agility and Speed gets Heightened Sense of Balance, and Lightning Reflexes instead. Heck I'd go so far as to offer options for some of the characters; why shouldn't a Strength/Endurance character get Increased Durability, Heavyweight, or Giant instead of Superhuman or Extraordinary Strength? Or the Speed and Agility guy gets Daredevil (From the Black Vault Wiki), Heightened Sense of Awareness, Danger Sense, or Impact Resistance (an agile character should be able to move in such a manner as to avoid a bad impact with the high P.P. and all).

So you think Superhuman Strength is going too far but training for outright super-powers including something as extreme as Growth makes more sense?

Giant =/= growth
And of the ones he chose?
they make more sense than Superhuman PS (X100/X200 carry/lift)

So you think someone training himself to be 10' tall somehow makes more sense than training himself to be stronger...

when put in those rather Literal Terms no...
But I can see an increase in the over all height and weight of the Character as more desireable than the insane level of str.
But then Giant is but one of several suggestions isnt it? (Dont think I didnt notice how you only singled out but one of several suggestions.)
If you are going to argue for a point be sure you refute all the oppositions points not just one...
so come on then lets hear you objections to others; oh wait you objected to those earlier didnt you? When you said

So you think Superhuman Strength is going too far but training for outright super-powers makes more sense?

Here is a news flash for you Super Human PS is an out right Super power.
Persaonally I would have stripped the class of any sort of powers connection as the SHPS makes no sense to me either and IMO is nothing but an example of munchkinism and power creep seeping into the game. (as well as the fact that the class is billed as being a non-powered class)
However Mephistos suggestion is an alternative to whole sale slash and burn nerfing that is my knee jerk reaction to such blatant Munchkinism.

[Nightmask]

Also Nightmask I think you are an ok guy but you made a mistake equating Growth to Giant and you have not yet apologized. If you want respect here, you need to apologize for that misdemeanor.

There isn't anything to apologize for. Whether I put 'giant' or 'growth' the meaning doesn't change, either way the suggestion is the character can train for an actual superpower that requires a far less plausible justification than training to have superhuman strength. If you're developing super-powers you've gone from 'Physical Training' to 'Mutant' and superhuman strength from a comic book superhero perspective is something you can train for not actual super-powers like Growth OR Giant. Hard work and exercise is never going to make someone go from 5' tall to 10' but it will make you stronger and tougher. If you're wanting actual superpowers just go with Mutant and select powers that are passed off as the training having activated their latent mutant potential.

[Damian Magecraft]

Also Nightmask I think you are an ok guy but you made a mistake equating Growth to Giant and you have not yet apologized. If you want respect here, you need to apologize for that misdemeanor.

There isn't anything to apologize for. Whether I put 'giant' or 'growth' the meaning doesn't change, either way the suggestion is the character can train for an actual superpower that requires a far less plausible justification than training to have superhuman strength. If you're developing super-powers you've gone from 'Physical Training' to 'Mutant' and superhuman strength from a comic book superhero perspective is something you can train for not actual super-powers like Growth OR Giant. Hard work and exercise is never going to make someone go from 5' tall to 10' but it will make you stronger and tougher. If you're wanting actual superpowers just go with Mutant and select powers that are passed off as the training having activated their latent mutant potential.

Thats the basis for your argument for keeping SHPS its possible for a normal human to train to be able to dead lift 5 to 6 tons?
The best that has been achieved on record is a little over 1/2 a ton by professional power lifters who are incapable of any sustained feats of stamina that one expects of the PT class.
I am all for the fantastic in my games but even that stretches my ability to disbelieve.

[Reagren Wright]

Going to weigh in on this before the heat gets this one locked. I'm going to agree with Mephisto.
Old physical training (HU revised 1st edition) was just fine. The two distinct styles is okay. The
focuses are okay. But the superhuman P.S. is a bit too much. As the guy who is trying to do a lot
with S.C.R.E.T., it made no sense to me that guys who spend all their time training their bodies to
be perfect physical specimens would then put on a suit of power armor, especially if their P.S.
was already stronger outside the armor. So I like the old school Physical Training but I'll create
NPCs and let my PC make their physicals as they are written in HU 2nd editions.

[Damian Magecraft]

Another point in favor of Mephiso's Suggestion...
The Powers he suggested as replacements are not really (IMO) even Minor level but more like proto-powers which are plausible for a PT character to hone (not to mention easier to explain away as training related in most cases) or as a natural quirk of the char that pushed him in the directipon of the PT class. (although I would most likely adjust the Giant power slightly before allowing it).

[Nightmask]

I also notice that the conflict became about Superhuman P.S. not about not allowing Extraordinary P.P. as a replacement. Aliens, Experiments and even Robotics are expected to be a bit on the fantastical side, while Hardware, Special Training and Physical Training do need some grounding in plausibility. The minor powers I presented represent more of a genetic trait per se than a true "power" that is why they were selected to help someone maximize their genetic gifts, not to train to achieve a 10 foot tall body.

Your talking a Power Category that provides hundreds of SDC to a normal human being, not counting the HP, making them as durable as a car or truck and you think that's plausible? I think you have the Physical training category confused with something else, or seem to have mistaken HU for N&SS because there is no such thing as 'grounding in plausibility' for any of the categories because they're based on super-hero archetypes and one of those is the 'Charles Atlas Superpower' whereby someone with simple hard work and dedicated training becomes effectively superhuman. They aren't grounded in plausibility because if they were the category couldn't exist as written because nothing about it's plausible.

[Damian Magecraft]

I also notice that the conflict became about Superhuman P.S. not about not allowing Extraordinary P.P. as a replacement. Aliens, Experiments and even Robotics are expected to be a bit on the fantastical side, while Hardware, Special Training and Physical Training do need some grounding in plausibility. The minor powers I presented represent more of a genetic trait per se than a true "power" that is why they were selected to help someone maximize their genetic gifts, not to train to achieve a 10 foot tall body.

Your talking a Power Category that provides hundreds of SDC to a normal human being, not counting the HP, making them as durable as a car or truck and you think that's plausible? I think you have the Physical training category confused with something else, or seem to have mistaken HU for N&SS because there is no such thing as 'grounding in plausibility' for any of the categories because they're based on super-hero archetypes and one of those is the 'Charles Atlas Superpower' whereby someone with simple hard work and dedicated training becomes effectively superhuman. They aren't grounded in plausibility because if they were the category couldn't exist as written because nothing about it's plausible.

It's a heroic fiction game, so plausible isn't equated to realistic. For a Physical Training character to be viable, it's going to require a bit of carte blanche caveats with regard to abilities, but that doesn't mean that the character can't still be the best character for action when action is dictated over simple strength. I see the Physical Training character as being the most fluid, most dynamic, and most capable in action when it's required; Physical Training characters are always busy being active and doing something, they don't stand around a whole lot. So if that building needs to be scouted, the Physical Training character is the first to the scene. An accident that needs to be investigated? PT is there first...if there are victims, the PT is the first to try and help them. It's not about the strength, or the association of the character with the rules it's understanding that they are action heroes first, not RPG characters. So molding the rules to benefit the action-oriented nature of the character is far more beneficial than being hung up on them keeping Superhuman P.S. for their Focus.

Well said Mephisto!
The objection is to the concept that a PT is capable of feats of strength on par with mutants, aliens, and monsters... through just simple training?
If it were exps (X50/x100) which puts the characters at the top end of the chart at dead lifting 2 to 3 tons that would be a little more in line with the concept of "I work out a lot" than the the 5 to 6 tons range that SHPS grants is.
Also lets not forget that by the current rules a PT is capable of actually harming an invulnerable character just through the application of raw brute force. Now does that really fit the conceit of the class?

[Dobergirl]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

I believe that Guiness lists Sri Chimnoy as the human who has lifted the most weight ever (by about one inch, using basically his legs): about 7000 pounds. 30th January 1987, he (Sri Chinmoy) lifted 7063 3/4-lb in a one-arm lift (right arm) Considering he's a real life human, just put someone like him to comic book and you get 9000.

[Dobergirl]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

I believe that Guiness lists Sri Chimnoy as the human who has lifted the most weight ever (by about one inch, using basically his legs): about 7000 pounds. 30th January 1987, he (Sri Chinmoy) lifted 7063 3/4-lb in a one-arm lift (right arm) Considering he's a real life human, just put someone like him to comic book and you get 9000.

A clean and jerk isn't even close to the same the lift and carry rules in Palladium. You can clean and jerk half of your P.S. value (which is an Olympic event and hard as heck, but not practical in most HU2 games; no one should be shooting at you or attacking you at the Olympics while you try it). Most of us can lift 100 pounds when it's in a container or position with that design in mind. A 100 pound sheet of wood is lot more unweildly than a 100 pound motorcycle or 100 pound toolbox that at leave have handles to move with.

So I still think that Physical Training is more about action and fluid movement than about strength. You fight a PT character be prepared because they will move towards you, hit you, and bring you down like no one else!

He's lifted entire platforms with people on the said platform. That is quite unwieldy too.

[Damian Magecraft]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

I believe that Guiness lists Sri Chimnoy as the human who has lifted the most weight ever (by about one inch, using basically his legs): about 7000 pounds. 30th January 1987, he (Sri Chinmoy) lifted 7063 3/4-lb in a one-arm lift (right arm) Considering he's a real life human, just put someone like him to comic book and you get 9000.

A clean and jerk isn't even close to the same the lift and carry rules in Palladium. You can clean and jerk half of your P.S. value (which is an Olympic event and hard as heck, but not practical in most HU2 games; no one should be shooting at you or attacking you at the Olympics while you try it). Most of us can lift 100 pounds when it's in a container or position with that design in mind. A 100 pound sheet of wood is lot more unweildly than a 100 pound motorcycle or 100 pound toolbox that at leave have handles to move with.

So I still think that Physical Training is more about action and fluid movement than about strength. You fight a PT character be prepared because they will move towards you, hit you, and bring you down like no one else!

He's lifted entire platforms with people on the said platform. That is quite unwieldy too.

yes but not without a great deal of pre-prep...
we are talking about being able to do this on the fly regularly...
Plus the amount of weight he lifted still only equals out to 3.5 tons (with in the upper range of ExPS) Not a valid example for allowing SHPS IMO. The fact that he supposedly did this one handed sets off my BS detector (not saying you are making a false claim but I do believe there were/are some shenanigans going on there.)

[Nightmask]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

I believe that Guiness lists Sri Chimnoy as the human who has lifted the most weight ever (by about one inch, using basically his legs): about 7000 pounds. 30th January 1987, he (Sri Chinmoy) lifted 7063 3/4-lb in a one-arm lift (right arm) Considering he's a real life human, just put someone like him to comic book and you get 9000.

A clean and jerk isn't even close to the same the lift and carry rules in Palladium. You can clean and jerk half of your P.S. value (which is an Olympic event and hard as heck, but not practical in most HU2 games; no one should be shooting at you or attacking you at the Olympics while you try it). Most of us can lift 100 pounds when it's in a container or position with that design in mind. A 100 pound sheet of wood is lot more unweildly than a 100 pound motorcycle or 100 pound toolbox that at leave have handles to move with.

So I still think that Physical Training is more about action and fluid movement than about strength. You fight a PT character be prepared because they will move towards you, hit you, and bring you down like no one else!

He's lifted entire platforms with people on the said platform. That is quite unwieldy too.

Yes I'm really not seeing how with RL examples of strength like that there's such refusal to accept the idea that a Physical Training character meant to emulate the sorts seen in Super-hero comics can train for Superhuman Strength when it's almost possible in RL and super-heroes operate outside the range of what's normal for a human (seriously just look at Batman, NO truly normal human being could remain in the game as long as he's shown doing with the kind of horrendous punishment his body undergoes).

[Damian Magecraft]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

I believe that Guiness lists Sri Chimnoy as the human who has lifted the most weight ever (by about one inch, using basically his legs): about 7000 pounds. 30th January 1987, he (Sri Chinmoy) lifted 7063 3/4-lb in a one-arm lift (right arm) Considering he's a real life human, just put someone like him to comic book and you get 9000.

A clean and jerk isn't even close to the same the lift and carry rules in Palladium. You can clean and jerk half of your P.S. value (which is an Olympic event and hard as heck, but not practical in most HU2 games; no one should be shooting at you or attacking you at the Olympics while you try it). Most of us can lift 100 pounds when it's in a container or position with that design in mind. A 100 pound sheet of wood is lot more unweildly than a 100 pound motorcycle or 100 pound toolbox that at leave have handles to move with.

So I still think that Physical Training is more about action and fluid movement than about strength. You fight a PT character be prepared because they will move towards you, hit you, and bring you down like no one else!

He's lifted entire platforms with people on the said platform. That is quite unwieldy too.

yes but not without a great deal of pre-prep...
we are talking about being able to do this on the fly regularly...
Plus the amount of weight he lifted still only equals out to 3.5 tons (with in the upper range of ExPS) Not a valid example for allowing SHPS IMO. The fact that he supposedly did this one handed sets off my BS detector (not saying you are making a false claim but I do believe there were/are some shenanigans going on there.)

and the more I read about the man Sri more convinced I become that his feat is a nothing more than just another in a long string of cons.

[Damian Magecraft]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

I believe that Guiness lists Sri Chimnoy as the human who has lifted the most weight ever (by about one inch, using basically his legs): about 7000 pounds. 30th January 1987, he (Sri Chinmoy) lifted 7063 3/4-lb in a one-arm lift (right arm) Considering he's a real life human, just put someone like him to comic book and you get 9000.

A clean and jerk isn't even close to the same the lift and carry rules in Palladium. You can clean and jerk half of your P.S. value (which is an Olympic event and hard as heck, but not practical in most HU2 games; no one should be shooting at you or attacking you at the Olympics while you try it). Most of us can lift 100 pounds when it's in a container or position with that design in mind. A 100 pound sheet of wood is lot more unweildly than a 100 pound motorcycle or 100 pound toolbox that at leave have handles to move with.

So I still think that Physical Training is more about action and fluid movement than about strength. You fight a PT character be prepared because they will move towards you, hit you, and bring you down like no one else!

He's lifted entire platforms with people on the said platform. That is quite unwieldy too.

Yes I'm really not seeing how with RL examples of strength like that there's such refusal to accept the idea that a Physical Training character meant to emulate the sorts seen in Super-hero comics can train for Superhuman Strength when it's almost possible in RL and super-heroes operate outside the range of what's normal for a human (seriously just look at Batman, NO truly normal human being could remain in the game as long as he's shown doing with the kind of horrendous punishment his body undergoes).

well that fact that with just a little research I was able to determine that the individual in question was a Cult leader... and his so called feat required mechanical assistance.
Second dont start dragging in names of Comic chars as that treads dangerously close to the no conversion rule and will get this thread locked.
But to address the point you are vainly trying make...
SHPS (and ExPS for that matter) are not endurance based (affected; yes) powers.
Body Armor and body hardening training are whats needed to deal with abuse.
Also since you brought him up... When was the last time you saw him bench press a car or bus? Sorry but the publishing company of said char even say he can only press 1000lbs well with in human parameters (at the top in the Olympic range but none the less) .

[green.nova343]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

Still not too over the top. To borrow from Marvel's superheroes, characters like Spider-Man were able to meet or exceed that... & they were far from being powerhouses in their settings. Even in Palladium, though, we're still talking about a character that will still have trouble winning arm-wrestling contests with some of the more powerful creatures out there (mainly because I carry over the same carrying/lifting rules to all characters listed as having "supernatural strength": werewolves, vampires, giants, dragon hatchlings, etc.).

Essentially, their "super" power is that they have trained themselves beyond the human norm. That still means they have to get within arm's length of you... & while they have some added S.D.C. over a normal human, there are plenty of superpowers out there that still leave them in the "squishy flesh & blood" category.

[Damian Magecraft]

OK, so the question of PT characters being able to hurt Invulnerable characters got me looking at the class closer.

A PT character who focuses on Strength has the equivalent of Superhuman PS. SO, take a such a character and give him a strength of 30 (not really that hard to do). Such a character can lift 9000 lbs! that's more than 4 tons!

That seems way over the top to me. The current bench press record is somewhere around 1000 lbs, so this dude trained himself to lift 9 times that?!?

For a future revision, I suggest giving PT characters who focus on strength Extraordinary PS (still able to lift an amazing 6000 lbs in the example above) and those who focus on agility Extraordinary PP.

What do you guys think?

Still not too over the top. To borrow from Marvel's superheroes, characters like Spider-Man were able to meet or exceed that... & they were far from being powerhouses in their settings. Even in Palladium, though, we're still talking about a character that will still have trouble winning arm-wrestling contests with some of the more powerful creatures out there (mainly because I carry over the same carrying/lifting rules to all characters listed as having "supernatural strength": werewolves, vampires, giants, dragon hatchlings, etc.).

Essentially, their "super" power is that they have trained themselves beyond the human norm. That still means they have to get within arm's length of you... & while they have some added S.D.C. over a normal human, there are plenty of superpowers out there that still leave them in the "squishy flesh & blood" category.

Spidey does not qualify as a PT...
But your point is noted
but Super Human PS does seem a tad over the top when you do the math
Ex ps not so much
I am not saying strip the class of all power but reduce the power to actually fit the class
And Mephisto's suggestion of offering a range of Proto-powers to choose from would also allow for more variation in the class than is currently possible.

[Mediapig71]

For the life of me, I can't remember; how was this class handled under the revised 1st edition rules?

[Incriptus]

For the life of me, I can't remember; how was this class handled under the revised 1st edition rules?

HU Revised you really didn't get much in the way of bonuses. You got your 8 physical skills +20%. 4 Espionage Skills +20%. Hand to Hand Expert/Martial Arts/Assassin [or a N&SS martial art in exchange for 5 physical skills,3 espionage skills, 1/2 your secondary skill]. +10% vs Coma & Death. 2d6 Hit Points. 3d4 x 10 SDC. 1 additional attack per melee. I guess they were going hardcore on your physical skills being the sole source of your bonuses. Except that SDC boost to keep you alive

Heroes Unlimited gave you 4 physical skills. You got 2-8 [2d4] to Physical Endurance. +1 to PS. Bonuses to different physical skill based on the skill itself.

Interestingly enough, I think that all three versions describe slightly different characters. Heroes Unlimited was just a guy who had a few extra physical skills. They list detective, spy, stunt man, pilot, scientist or engineer as character options. HU revised really described your character as super athletes who have "honed their natural bodies into finely tuned fighting machines...which have reached the pinnacle of physical perfection". It also introduces the Chi-Power idea. HU2 continues to build on that and offers you the "enabled them to transcend what we consider to be ordinary humans". It further expands the Chi-Power to "do damage to super beings who are otherwise invulnerable as well as to supernatural beings and creatures of magic who aren't normally affected by ordinary punches"

Is there power creep there? Yes. is it for better or worse? Who knows.

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Also I do find myself very tempted to make a list of powers that don't have to be superhuman in nature. There are plenty of comic characters with . . . gifts . . . who aren't "mutants/mutates" per-se and have simply trained themselves to be that incredible.