Old One Slyth versus Demon Planet Cormal

[V-Origin]

So suppose Old One Slyth was freed and he got himself into a showdown with Demon Planet Cormal

Who is gonna win and how?

Which is the bigger bad ass anyway?

RFLOL..

[Johnathan]

So suppose Old One Slyth was freed and he got himself into a showdown with Demon Planet Cormal

Who is gonna win and how?

Which is the bigger bad ass anyway?

RFLOL..

Well... We know, based upon available information on Cormal and the (woefully unimformative statistics) on Slyth in the Old Ones PFRPG book that Slyth was a Level 30 Alien Intelligence (We deduce this from the Witch of Slyth's, Sharr Cruant. Who, thanks to her Gift of Union with Slyth, can cast any "common" spell, level 1-15, at 10th level). Cormal is "only" level 25, based upon his magical abilities.

HOWEVER, Cormal's statistics, which are WAY more complete than than Slyth's, show him to be WELL beyond what would be considered "Normal" Alien Intelligence power levels. Even Nxla, an Alien Intelligence of extraordinary power, doesn't compare to Cormal. Thoth, who is the transformed Old One Xy ("POWER INCARNATE", Greatest Amongst The Legendary Old Ones!), doesn't even come CLOSE to Cormal's scale of power.

Heck! Nxla ALONE puts Thoth to absolutely SHAME when comparing stats and Cormal makes Nxla look like a child.

Case in Point:
-Thoth has 40,000 MDC (which HE doesn't even realize he has), and 6,000 PPE.
-Nxla (at the absolute PEAK of his power) has 513,000 MDC and 101,000 PPE. At his "Normal" levels, he STILL has 113,000 MDC and 21,000 PPE (Both way above and beyond Thoth).
-Cormal has 100,000,000 MDC and 16,300,000 PPE. Many times more than Nxla at his absolute strongest.

Let's take a look one of Cormal's "Avatars" (which only has 1/5th Cormal's power). A Cormal Avatar has 20,000,000 MDC and 3,260,000 PPE. Even one of Cormal's Avatars STILL puts Nxla to shame.

So... a solid answer to your question would be - Cormal. All the Way. All He would have to do is EAT the Palladium World and BYE BYE Slyth.

[V-Origin]

So suppose Old One Slyth was freed and he got himself into a showdown with Demon Planet Cormal

Who is gonna win and how?

Which is the bigger bad ass anyway?

RFLOL..

Well... We know, based upon available information on Cormal and the (woefully unimformative statistics) on Slyth in the Old Ones PFRPG book that Slyth was a Level 30 Alien Intelligence (We deduce this from the Witch of Slyth's, Sharr Cruant. Who, thanks to her Gift of Union with Slyth, can cast any "common" spell, level 1-15, at 10th level). Cormal is "only" level 25, based upon his magical abilities.

HOWEVER, Cormal's statistics, which are WAY more complete than than Slyth's, show him to be WELL beyond what would be considered "Normal" Alien Intelligence power levels. Even Nxla, an Alien Intelligence of extraordinary power, doesn't compare to Cormal. Thoth, who is the transformed Old One Xy ("POWER INCARNATE", Greatest Amongst The Legendary Old Ones!), doesn't even come CLOSE to Cormal's scale of power.

Heck! Nxla ALONE puts Thoth to absolutely SHAME when comparing stats and Cormal makes Nxla look like a child.

Case in Point:
-Thoth has 40,000 MDC (which HE doesn't even realize he has), and 6,000 PPE.
-Nxla (at the absolute PEAK of his power) has 513,000 MDC and 101,000 PPE. At his "Normal" levels, he STILL has 113,000 MDC and 21,000 PPE (Both way above and beyond Thoth).
-Cormal has 100,000,000 MDC and 16,300,000 PPE. Many times more than Nxla at his absolute strongest.

Let's take a look one of Cormal's "Avatars" (which only has 1/5th Cormal's power). A Cormal Avatar has 20,000,000 MDC and 3,260,000 PPE. Even one of Cormal's Avatars STILL puts Nxla to shame.

So... a solid answer to your question would be - Cormal. All the Way. All He would have to do is EAT the Palladium World and BYE BYE Slyth.

Oh yeah about Slyth being 30th level, i made a similar mistake as well.. Slyth is supposed to be 3000th level seeing that he is at 1% of his strength.. Plus you don't really know what's the MDC and PPE levels of an Old One anyway which I assume will be much greater than even Cormal himself..

Imagine Slyth casting a 3000th level Call Comet.. LOL..

[Johnathan]

Oh yeah about Slyth being 30th level, i made a similar mistake as well.. Slyth is supposed to be 3000th level seeing that he is at 1% of his strength.. Plus you don't really know what's the MDC and PPE levels of an Old One anyway which I assume will be much greater than even Cormal himself..

Imagine Slyth casting a 3000th level Call Comet.. LOL..

Actually, we DO have a reference for what an Old One's PPE and MDC levels would be. The God of Wisdom, Thoth, in the Pantheon of Light of Taut (Or the Egyptian Pantheon, depending on what reference book you use). Hence why I referenced him, as he was the Greatest amongst the Legendary Old Ones, Xy.

However, for arguments sake, let's assume a similar fate befell Thoth and not only was his memory erased and his form was permanently altered but that also, like Slyth, his TRUE power was also reduced to 1/100th.

Now, let's go back to the Numbers. Thoth's MDC is now increased 100 fold, from 40,000 to 4,000,000 (Four Million) and his PPE shoots up from 6,000 to 600,000 (Six Hundred Thousand). Let us also take what we know about Xy, that he was said to be the greatest amongst the Old Ones. The most powerful, and the one who sought power amongst all else.

Now, let us also take into account that it took Two (2) other Old Ones to decieve and betray Xy in order to take him out of the game. This leads one to believe that no SINGLE Old One could take on Xy alone, and win. Even Two, with their combined efforts, didn't believe that they could on Xy one-on-one and win.

Let us also take into account that Slyth was a Lesser Old One. So much so that his name isn't even recognized as a Power Word.

It is also rumored (Unconfirmed by Canon) that Nxla could be a Lesser Old One who somehow managed to escape or overcome the mystic slumber that brought the Old Ones to an end.

So! We have now given Thoth/Xy 100 times the amount of power that he currently wields (4 million MDC and 600,000 PPE). He could now probably wipe the floor with Nxla.

HOWEVER, he STILL does not compare against Cormal's 100 MILLION MDC and 16.3 MILLION PPE! Cormal STILL has, literally, 25 TIMES as much MDC and approximately 27 TIMES as much PPE.

Cormal still wins.

[V-Origin]

Oh yeah about Slyth being 30th level, i made a similar mistake as well.. Slyth is supposed to be 3000th level seeing that he is at 1% of his strength.. Plus you don't really know what's the MDC and PPE levels of an Old One anyway which I assume will be much greater than even Cormal himself..

Imagine Slyth casting a 3000th level Call Comet.. LOL..

Actually, we DO have a reference for what an Old One's PPE and MDC levels would be. The God of Wisdom, Thoth, in the Pantheon of Light of Taut (Or the Egyptian Pantheon, depending on what reference book you use). Hence why I referenced him, as he was the Greatest amongst the Legendary Old Ones, Xy.

However, for arguments sake, let's assume a similar fate befell Thoth and not only was his memory erased and his form was permanently altered but that also, like Slyth, his TRUE power was also reduced to 1/100th.

Now, let's go back to the Numbers. Thoth's MDC is now increased 100 fold, from 40,000 to 4,000,000 (Four Million) and his PPE shoots up from 6,000 to 600,000 (Six Hundred Thousand). Let us also take what we know about Xy, that he was said to be the greatest amongst the Old Ones. The most powerful, and the one who sought power amongst all else.

Now, let us also take into account that it took Two (2) other Old Ones to decieve and betray Xy in order to take him out of the game. This leads one to believe that no SINGLE Old One could take on Xy alone, and win. Even Two, with their combined efforts, didn't believe that they could on Xy one-on-one and win.

Let us also take into account that Slyth was a Lesser Old One. So much so that his name isn't even recognized as a Power Word.

It is also rumored (Unconfirmed by Canon) that Nxla could be a Lesser Old One who somehow managed to escape or overcome the mystic slumber that brought the Old Ones to an end.

So! We have now given Thoth/Xy 100 times the amount of power that he currently wields (4 million MDC and 600,000 PPE). He could now probably wipe the floor with Nxla.

HOWEVER, he STILL does not compare against Cormal's 100 MILLION MDC and 16.3 MILLION PPE! Cormal STILL has, literally, 25 TIMES as much MDC and approximately 27 TIMES as much PPE.

Cormal still wins.

A 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime,

Cormal may have millions of PPE but his spell strength only goes up to 25th level.

Enough said.

[Johnathan]

A 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime,

Cormal may have millions of PPE but his spell strength only goes up to 25th level.

Enough said.

Irrelevant. The whole reason ive avoided the whole level 3000 thing is for several reasons:
1 - if you already believed Slyth to be more powerful, at full strength, then Cormal. Why bother asking? Go with your gut and roll with it.
- I would also like to note, a level 3000 ANYTHING is unheard of. Even amongst such ancient and powerful beings as Titans, Gods, any Alien Intelligence, the Lords of Magic, Prometheans, Dominators (ANY Elder Race, really), etc. it's just not a realistic figure.
2 - Again, I reference Thoth, who was never reported to have lost ANY of his actual power from his transition from Xy.
- Xy was the most powerful Old One, this is documented on more than one occasion. Making Slyth, a Lesser Old One, several times more powerful than him is not realistic... Or really plausible.
3 - At NO point is ever stated that the Old Ones have lost ANY of their experience, only their available power. The only reason Slyth is at 1/100th of his power is due to a power matrix of mystic drain circles that continually drains him of his power. Mystic drain, in no way, shape or form results in the loss of experience/level. If it does, I would like to know where that is written.
- It is, however, referenced several times that it is entirely possible to lose power (be it MDC, PPE, ISP, chi, whatever...) without losing your experience. For example, there is lizard Mage NPC who owns a magic shop in kingsdale that upset Splynncryth, was thrown into the portal of light in Aslym and lost the power to cast magic when he came out. However, he retained ALL of his vast mystical knowledge and experience.
4 - Thus, we can deduce that Slyth, probably at best, was level 31. Not level 3000.

For arguments sake, let's assume you're right, which I believe you are not, and Slyth can cast a completely unheard of/undocumented level 3000 Meteor spell. Meteor does 1D6x10 MDC, +2 MDC per level. So, given that, at BEST, Slyth's meteor does a whopping 6,060 MDC. Granted, that's a nice chunk of damage... But it would be the equivalent of a flesh wound to Cormal's 14 million MDC (I.E. 6,000 MDC is less than .1% of Cormal's MDC...). EVENTUALLY, Cormal would get annoyed and start blasting back...

Soooo... Your argument still doesn't hold ground...

[cornholioprime]

A 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime,

Cormal may have millions of PPE but his spell strength only goes up to 25th level.

Enough said.

Irrelevant. The whole reason ive avoided the whole level 3000 thing is for several reasons:
1 - if you already believed Slyth to be more powerful, at full strength, then Cormal. Why bother asking? Go with your gut and roll with it.
- I would also like to note, a level 3000 ANYTHING is unheard of. Even amongst such ancient and powerful beings as Titans, Gods, any Alien Intelligence, the Lords of Magic, Prometheans, Dominators (ANY Elder Race, really), etc. it's just not a realistic figure.
2 - Again, I reference Thoth, who was never reported to have lost ANY of his actual power from his transition from Xy.
- Xy was the most powerful Old One, this is documented on more than one occasion. Making Slyth, a Lesser Old One, several times more powerful than him is not realistic... Or really plausible.
3 - At NO point is ever stated that the Old Ones have lost ANY of their experience, only their available power. The only reason Slyth is at 1/100th of his power is due to a power matrix of mystic drain circles that continually drains him of his power. Mystic drain, in no way, shape or form results in the loss of experience/level. If it does, I would like to know where that is written.
- It is, however, referenced several times that it is entirely possible to lose power (be it MDC, PPE, ISP, chi, whatever...) without losing your experience. For example, there is lizard Mage NPC who owns a magic shop in kingsdale that upset Splynncryth, was thrown into the portal of light in Aslym and lost the power to cast magic when he came out. However, he retained ALL of his vast mystical knowledge and experience.
4 - Thus, we can deduce that Slyth, probably at best, was level 31. Not level 3000.

For arguments sake, let's assume you're right, which I believe you are not, and Slyth can cast a completely unheard of/undocumented level 3000 Meteor spell. Meteor does 1D6x10 MDC, +2 MDC per level. So, given that, at BEST, Slyth's meteor does a whopping 6,060 MDC. Granted, that's a nice chunk of damage... But it would be the equivalent of a flesh wound to Cormal's 14 million MDC (I.E. 6,000 MDC is less than .1% of Cormal's MDC...). EVENTUALLY, Cormal would get annoyed and start blasting back...

Soooo... Your argument still doesn't hold ground...

While I think that Johnathan could be right if we were GOING STRICTLY BY THE NUMBERS, I also think that there is a series of undefined, never-to-be-fleshed-out-by-the-Authors-by-deliberate-design set of special stats that makes the Old Ones so powerful beyond raw numbers.

"Just" Thoth as he is now, could cast one of his special magics ("Rune Strike") a couple of times and bring down Cormal with relative ease (it reduces the target's Hit Points/MDC by half, takes away ALL of their PPE, can hit the target anywhere in the Megaverse, and doesn't have a saving throw).

And that's just an amnesiac Old One who doesn't have 90% of the knowledge he once had.

I think that this match only LOOKS one-sided, in favor of Cormal, but one has to remember that the Alliance Of Light had to use extraordinary magics against the Old Ones at the end to put them down despite their vastly superior numbers once the forces of Darkness had been routed, extraordinary magics that Cormal doesn't seem to have.

[Johnathan]

Cornholio, you, sir, are a breath of fresh-morning-dew-air. Even if you may disagree with my interpretations of the battle to an extent. However, while I will agree that the scenario you present is entirely possible and all Old Ones may have some as-of-yet-intentionally-undocumented power/ability/spell/psionic-thing, or multiples thereof... Would you also not agree that such things should remain within the realm of possibility vs. probability?

The only reason I say that is because you are absolutely right! All the Old Ones may have such abilities, and probably do... But if we are incapable of determining what those abilities are or how they operate and/or what they do... Then they hold little bearing upon the debate.

Sure... We COULD say that Slyth (or any Old One) really MAY have a natural ability that is "Summon and control/command Alien Intelligence". Which, in turn, would make ANY Alien Intelligence (of which Cormal is considered one), effectively, that Old One's B****. Is that a possibility? Yes. A probability? Maybe. However, at that stage in the game, you may as well throw your hands up in the air and say, "Eff it. It's whatever the GM wants it to be!" Which, in turn, defeats this ENTIRE discussion. Rendering it a moot point, at best. Since it is now the GMs call, entirely.

[The Dark Elf]

I would say that Syth wins as he knows Cormals true name but Cormal refers to Syth as Slyth the same as everyone here...

A word on magic as a scale for power - if these creatures have high PE's then the bonuses to save counter act most spells cast so it matters very little (try playtesting a god battle and it comes down to hand to hand on most occasions). You would need to see spell strength stats...

[V-Origin]

A 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime,

Cormal may have millions of PPE but his spell strength only goes up to 25th level.

Enough said.

Irrelevant. The whole reason ive avoided the whole level 3000 thing is for several reasons:
1 - if you already believed Slyth to be more powerful, at full strength, then Cormal. Why bother asking? Go with your gut and roll with it.
- I would also like to note, a level 3000 ANYTHING is unheard of. Even amongst such ancient and powerful beings as Titans, Gods, any Alien Intelligence, the Lords of Magic, Prometheans, Dominators (ANY Elder Race, really), etc. it's just not a realistic figure.
2 - Again, I reference Thoth, who was never reported to have lost ANY of his actual power from his transition from Xy.
- Xy was the most powerful Old One, this is documented on more than one occasion. Making Slyth, a Lesser Old One, several times more powerful than him is not realistic... Or really plausible.
3 - At NO point is ever stated that the Old Ones have lost ANY of their experience, only their available power. The only reason Slyth is at 1/100th of his power is due to a power matrix of mystic drain circles that continually drains him of his power. Mystic drain, in no way, shape or form results in the loss of experience/level. If it does, I would like to know where that is written.
- It is, however, referenced several times that it is entirely possible to lose power (be it MDC, PPE, ISP, chi, whatever...) without losing your experience. For example, there is lizard Mage NPC who owns a magic shop in kingsdale that upset Splynncryth, was thrown into the portal of light in Aslym and lost the power to cast magic when he came out. However, he retained ALL of his vast mystical knowledge and experience.
4 - Thus, we can deduce that Slyth, probably at best, was level 31. Not level 3000.

For arguments sake, let's assume you're right, which I believe you are not, and Slyth can cast a completely unheard of/undocumented level 3000 Meteor spell. Meteor does 1D6x10 MDC, +2 MDC per level. So, given that, at BEST, Slyth's meteor does a whopping 6,060 MDC. Granted, that's a nice chunk of damage... But it would be the equivalent of a flesh wound to Cormal's 14 million MDC (I.E. 6,000 MDC is less than .1% of Cormal's MDC...). EVENTUALLY, Cormal would get annoyed and start blasting back...

Soooo... Your argument still doesn't hold ground...

1) Titans, Gods, any Alien Intelligence, the Lords of Magic, Prometheans, Dominators (ANY Elder Race, really), etc... Are Not Old Ones.

2) Thoth was also never reported to be at the same strength level as when he was Xy

3) You obviously do not understand english. The book clearly states that the magic imprisonment is limiting Slyth to one percentile of his normal power level.

4) Add to the fact that the witch is receiving the powers of 10th level spell magick from the witch union with Slyth, we can clearly deduct that Slyth has the powers of a 30th level wizard right now even though he is at only one percentile of his power level. 30 times 100 equates 3000.

5) Yeah Cormal is gonna blast back with a 25th level call comet. And the damage for Summon Comet is 2D4xl000 M.D. +200 M.D. per level of experience with a direct hit.

Whch means Cormal is gonna do 13000 MD at best but Slyth is gonna do 608000 MD. Slyth is gonna hole up in a astral realm and concentrate on producing 1000 scrolls with 3000th level call comet. Then he is gonna possess 1000 martyrs who will use the scroll of 3000th level call comet and blast Cormal to hell.

Let's see 608000 x 1000 = 608 million.

Told you a 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime. Cormal doesn't even stand a chance.

Btw I have not even talked about the good parts of Slyth waking up yet. Hehhehehehe..

[V-Origin]

Cornholio, you, sir, are a breath of fresh-morning-dew-air. Even if you may disagree with my interpretations of the battle to an extent. However, while I will agree that the scenario you present is entirely possible and all Old Ones may have some as-of-yet-intentionally-undocumented power/ability/spell/psionic-thing, or multiples thereof... Would you also not agree that such things should remain within the realm of possibility vs. probability?

The only reason I say that is because you are absolutely right! All the Old Ones may have such abilities, and probably do... But if we are incapable of determining what those abilities are or how they operate and/or what they do... Then they hold little bearing upon the debate.

Sure... We COULD say that Slyth (or any Old One) really MAY have a natural ability that is "Summon and control/command Alien Intelligence". Which, in turn, would make ANY Alien Intelligence (of which Cormal is considered one), effectively, that Old One's B****. Is that a possibility? Yes. A probability? Maybe. However, at that stage in the game, you may as well throw your hands up in the air and say, "Eff it. It's whatever the GM wants it to be!" Which, in turn, defeats this ENTIRE discussion. Rendering it a moot point, at best. Since it is now the GMs call, entirely.

You know a lot of people forget that Slyth is a God.

If he wants to, he can use Deific Powers of Destruction too.

[Nightmask]

2) Thoth was also never reported to be at the same strength level as when he was Xy

Thoth's reported to have the same MDC after becoming Thoth as he had before (he just doesn't realize it). So more than likely he's not lost anything with regards to his power level.

3) You obviously do not understand english. The book clearly states that the magic imprisonment is limiting Slyth to one percentile of his normal power level.

Not wise to insult someone like that, violation of forum rules. Also you're the one misstating the meaning of level as it has among other things a qualifier on it 'power'. Power level does not equal spell level or OCC level, you can't simply go 'well he must be thousands of levels up on his OCC because he's at one-hundredth of his normal level' because it doesn't say that and Palladium's system doesn't support that kind of level in any case.

4) Add to the fact that the witch is receiving the powers of 10th level spell magick from the witch union with Slyth, we can clearly deduct that Slyth has the powers of a 30th level wizard right now even though he is at only one percentile of his power level. 30 times 100 equates 3000.

Your math is wrong because level has different applications (as brutally lampshaded and mocked in a Giants In the Playground strip where one character is bragging about going up in level after gaining enough experience but the leader is talking about going down a level as in dungeon level and both completely confused at why the other would want to go down/up a level because they were using a different meaning of level). Experience level and power level aren't the same, so your math is wrong because it simply doesn't apply.

5) Yeah Cormal is gonna blast back with a 25th level call comet. And the damage for Summon Comet is 2D4xl000 M.D. +200 M.D. per level of experience with a direct hit.

Whch means Cormal is gonna do 13000 MD at best but Slyth is gonna do 608000 MD. Slyth is gonna hole up in a astral realm and concentrate on producing 1000 scrolls with 3000th level call comet. Then he is gonna possess 1000 martyrs who will use the scroll of 3000th level call comet and blast Cormal to hell.

Let's see 608000 x 1000 = 608 million.

Told you a 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime. Cormal doesn't even stand a chance.

Btw I have not even talked about the good parts of Slyth waking up yet. Hehhehehehe..

Already covered previously, this is a flawed argument that isn't applicable.

[Johnathan]

2) Thoth was also never reported to be at the same strength level as when he was Xy

Thoth's reported to have the same MDC after becoming Thoth as he had before (he just doesn't realize it). So more than likely he's not lost anything with regards to his power level.

3) You obviously do not understand english. The book clearly states that the magic imprisonment is limiting Slyth to one percentile of his normal power level.

Not wise to insult someone like that, violation of forum rules. Also you're the one misstating the meaning of level as it has among other things a qualifier on it 'power'. Power level does not equal spell level or OCC level, you can't simply go 'well he must be thousands of levels up on his OCC because he's at one-hundredth of his normal level' because it doesn't say that and Palladium's system doesn't support that kind of level in any case.

4) Add to the fact that the witch is receiving the powers of 10th level spell magick from the witch union with Slyth, we can clearly deduct that Slyth has the powers of a 30th level wizard right now even though he is at only one percentile of his power level. 30 times 100 equates 3000.

Your math is wrong because level has different applications (as brutally lampshaded and mocked in a Giants In the Playground strip where one character is bragging about going up in level after gaining enough experience but the leader is talking about going down a level as in dungeon level and both completely confused at why the other would want to go down/up a level because they were using a different meaning of level). Experience level and power level aren't the same, so your math is wrong because it simply doesn't apply.

5) Yeah Cormal is gonna blast back with a 25th level call comet. And the damage for Summon Comet is 2D4xl000 M.D. +200 M.D. per level of experience with a direct hit.

Whch means Cormal is gonna do 13000 MD at best but Slyth is gonna do 608000 MD. Slyth is gonna hole up in a astral realm and concentrate on producing 1000 scrolls with 3000th level call comet. Then he is gonna possess 1000 martyrs who will use the scroll of 3000th level call comet and blast Cormal to hell.

Let's see 608000 x 1000 = 608 million.

Told you a 3000th level spell will outgun a 25th level spell anytime. Cormal doesn't even stand a chance.

Btw I have not even talked about the good parts of Slyth waking up yet. Hehhehehehe..

Already covered previously, this is a flawed argument that isn't applicable.

[cornholioprime]

Cornholio, you, sir, are a breath of fresh-morning-dew-air. Even if you may disagree with my interpretations of the battle to an extent. However, while I will agree that the scenario you present is entirely possible and all Old Ones may have some as-of-yet-intentionally-undocumented power/ability/spell/psionic-thing, or multiples thereof... Would you also not agree that such things should remain within the realm of possibility vs. probability?

The only reason I say that is because you are absolutely right! All the Old Ones may have such abilities, and probably do... But if we are incapable of determining what those abilities are or how they operate and/or what they do... Then they hold little bearing upon the debate.

Sure... We COULD say that Slyth (or any Old One) really MAY have a natural ability that is "Summon and control/command Alien Intelligence". Which, in turn, would make ANY Alien Intelligence (of which Cormal is considered one), effectively, that Old One's B****. Is that a possibility? Yes. A probability? Maybe. However, at that stage in the game, you may as well throw your hands up in the air and say, "Eff it. It's whatever the GM wants it to be!" Which, in turn, defeats this ENTIRE discussion. Rendering it a moot point, at best. Since it is now the GMs call, entirely.

The full powers and abilities of The Old Ones are DELIBERATELY kept from the reader's eye, and beyond his reach, by design of the Authors. They are for the most part more of a plot device than something that can be accurately put up against other creatures/beings/groups.

We termed it the "Lady Of Pain Syndrome" in the Palladium Terminology Project Thread, after a famous fictional character from another fictional setting.

[Johnathan]

Cornholio, you, sir, are a breath of fresh-morning-dew-air. Even if you may disagree with my interpretations of the battle to an extent. However, while I will agree that the scenario you present is entirely possible and all Old Ones may have some as-of-yet-intentionally-undocumented power/ability/spell/psionic-thing, or multiples thereof... Would you also not agree that such things should remain within the realm of possibility vs. probability?

The only reason I say that is because you are absolutely right! All the Old Ones may have such abilities, and probably do... But if we are incapable of determining what those abilities are or how they operate and/or what they do... Then they hold little bearing upon the debate.

Sure... We COULD say that Slyth (or any Old One) really MAY have a natural ability that is "Summon and control/command Alien Intelligence". Which, in turn, would make ANY Alien Intelligence (of which Cormal is considered one), effectively, that Old One's B****. Is that a possibility? Yes. A probability? Maybe. However, at that stage in the game, you may as well throw your hands up in the air and say, "Eff it. It's whatever the GM wants it to be!" Which, in turn, defeats this ENTIRE discussion. Rendering it a moot point, at best. Since it is now the GMs call, entirely.

The full powers and abilities of The Old Ones are DELIBERATELY kept from the reader's eye, and beyond his reach, by design of the Authors. They are for the most part more of a plot device than something that can be accurately put up against other creatures/beings/groups.

We termed it the "Lady Of Pain Syndrome" in the Palladium Terminology Project Thread, after a famous fictional character from another fictional setting.

Agreed, with the exception of Thoth. However, as crystaleyes so pointedly out it, we are unsure if Thoths abilities mirror his past life as Xy. So... For the sake of crystaleyes NOT getting into any sort of trouble due to him feeling the need to insult my knowledge of the English language (of which I believe is quite comprehensive) in order to justify his argument, I am choosing to wash my hands of this discussion and simply agree to disagree.

[Nightmask]

Cornholio, you, sir, are a breath of fresh-morning-dew-air. Even if you may disagree with my interpretations of the battle to an extent. However, while I will agree that the scenario you present is entirely possible and all Old Ones may have some as-of-yet-intentionally-undocumented power/ability/spell/psionic-thing, or multiples thereof... Would you also not agree that such things should remain within the realm of possibility vs. probability?

The only reason I say that is because you are absolutely right! All the Old Ones may have such abilities, and probably do... But if we are incapable of determining what those abilities are or how they operate and/or what they do... Then they hold little bearing upon the debate.

Sure... We COULD say that Slyth (or any Old One) really MAY have a natural ability that is "Summon and control/command Alien Intelligence". Which, in turn, would make ANY Alien Intelligence (of which Cormal is considered one), effectively, that Old One's B****. Is that a possibility? Yes. A probability? Maybe. However, at that stage in the game, you may as well throw your hands up in the air and say, "Eff it. It's whatever the GM wants it to be!" Which, in turn, defeats this ENTIRE discussion. Rendering it a moot point, at best. Since it is now the GMs call, entirely.

The full powers and abilities of The Old Ones are DELIBERATELY kept from the reader's eye, and beyond his reach, by design of the Authors. They are for the most part more of a plot device than something that can be accurately put up against other creatures/beings/groups.

We termed it the "Lady Of Pain Syndrome" in the Palladium Terminology Project Thread, after a famous fictional character from another fictional setting.

As a quick question, do they detail anywhere the ability of AI to create gods? I ask as it seems more than a few AI including Old Ones have been shown having created some seriously powerful gods as little more than lesser minions, at least until they banded together and rose up to win their freedom that is.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Cornholio, you, sir, are a breath of fresh-morning-dew-air. Even if you may disagree with my interpretations of the battle to an extent. However, while I will agree that the scenario you present is entirely possible and all Old Ones may have some as-of-yet-intentionally-undocumented power/ability/spell/psionic-thing, or multiples thereof... Would you also not agree that such things should remain within the realm of possibility vs. probability?

The only reason I say that is because you are absolutely right! All the Old Ones may have such abilities, and probably do... But if we are incapable of determining what those abilities are or how they operate and/or what they do... Then they hold little bearing upon the debate.

Sure... We COULD say that Slyth (or any Old One) really MAY have a natural ability that is "Summon and control/command Alien Intelligence". Which, in turn, would make ANY Alien Intelligence (of which Cormal is considered one), effectively, that Old One's B****. Is that a possibility? Yes. A probability? Maybe. However, at that stage in the game, you may as well throw your hands up in the air and say, "Eff it. It's whatever the GM wants it to be!" Which, in turn, defeats this ENTIRE discussion. Rendering it a moot point, at best. Since it is now the GMs call, entirely.

The full powers and abilities of The Old Ones are DELIBERATELY kept from the reader's eye, and beyond his reach, by design of the Authors. They are for the most part more of a plot device than something that can be accurately put up against other creatures/beings/groups.

We termed it the "Lady Of Pain Syndrome" in the Palladium Terminology Project Thread, after a famous fictional character from another fictional setting.

As a quick question, do they detail anywhere the ability of AI to create gods? I ask as it seems more than a few AI including Old Ones have been shown having created some seriously powerful gods as little more than lesser minions, at least until they banded together and rose up to win their freedom that is.

No, and for that matter it's not a power common to all AI's in the first place.

Some really powerful ones can create them (Zurvan), or somehow give birth to them (Chronos), but there's no reason to assume the ability is common to all alien intelligences, or, for that matter, that the ability works in a similar way for the ones that can. Alien Intelligences are not beings that follow any kind of common pattern between types. While some may group more closely than others (Splurgorth, for example, seem to be a viable race of them), while others appear to be wholely unique in nature.

And I hate to invoke Lovecraft here, but It's pretty clear this kind of mythos thing is where Kevin S. was going with them. Not that they are all necessarly related to the Old Ones in the palladia-verse, but more that they are amoung that catagory of beings that simply don't see reality the way mortals or even lesser gods do, and arn't limited by physical laws to greater or lesser extents.

In fact, i'd go so far as to say the only reason that Alien Intelligences seem to have any recognizable pattern of abilities is that those with truely reality-warping power were sealed away long ago--it is explicitly mentioned that the Old Ones were merely one group of cosmic beings locked away, and that they probablly arn't even the worst of the bunch.

EDIT: It occurs to me I may not have been very clear on my point. It's simply this: even those intelligences who have created gods, no hints as to how they have done so were given, and the flavor text implies some very different methodology was involved. While I do lean heavily twords a literalist interpretaion of rules and creature stats, alien intelligences are the one thing I would rotuntely give the nod to being able to do things not even hinted at on their character sheet. Powerful gods may sometimes have "unlisted" abilities that they simply hadn't shown they had to mortals on a given world yet, but Alien Intelligences are not bound by normal laws--they can decide they want to do something they never did before and find a way to do it. it may take time, and each one may pay an entirely different cost, but if they want to, they can usually find a way, through magic, personal development or vast ritual. Time is really the only consistant limit on their power, and in the case of some, not even that.

[The Beast]

I would like to add in something here. Slyth is written to be "asleep" in a lava filled pit that is surrounded by several power-drain wards linked in some unknown fashion. He is also said to be more powerful than entire pantheons. That leads me to wonder a couple things about Slyth:

1 = He's either immune to fire and heat, or regenerates so fast that being submerged in lava doesn't hurt him.

2 = The magic wards may in some way prevent more of his power from being transfered to his witch, and that explains why the witch casts magic at the level she casts at.

[Tor]

Thanks to Johnathon for mentioning Slyth is from Old Ones, but where is Cormal from? Books are good when bringing up chars so we know what to buy.

Thoth, who is the transformed Old One Xy ("POWER INCARNATE", Greatest Amongst The Legendary Old Ones!), doesn't even come CLOSE to Cormal's scale of power. Heck! Nxla ALONE puts Thoth to absolutely SHAME when comparing stats and Cormal makes Nxla look like a child.

That might have something to do with Thoth being described as being something like 1/10 or 1/100 of his original power levels? Could've sworn there was a blurb along those lines somewhere.

[Talavar]

Arise, arise necro-thread!

Since I'm here anyway, the idea that nowhere says Xy lost anything in becoming Thoth is wrong. In his write up for Dragons & Gods, it specifically notes that all of Thoth's powers from his previous life as an Old One were lost, under natural abilities.

We can also just use deductive reasoning to realize that Thoth, though more powerful than your average god, is not just Xy in ibis-headed clothing: Xy was the most powerful Old One; Xy became Thoth; Thoth is less powerful than Slyth; therefore, Xy must have lost power in becoming Thoth.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Thanks to Johnathon for mentioning Slyth is from Old Ones, but where is Cormal from? Books are good when bringing up chars so we know what to buy.

Thoth, who is the transformed Old One Xy ("POWER INCARNATE", Greatest Amongst The Legendary Old Ones!), doesn't even come CLOSE to Cormal's scale of power. Heck! Nxla ALONE puts Thoth to absolutely SHAME when comparing stats and Cormal makes Nxla look like a child.

That might have something to do with Thoth being described as being something like 1/10 or 1/100 of his original power levels? Could've sworn there was a blurb along those lines somewhere.

Cormal is from Dimensional outbreak, it's one of those legendary powers that was put to sleep and sealed alongside the old ones (but not technically an old one himself, a different catagory of being alibet on the same level of power). the demons called him from his prison and is using a rune weapon that gives them the power to manipulate dreams to manipulate the sleeping entities dreams, causing the physical body to sleepwalk/stir and do what they want it to do.

That's right. the demons summoned a sleeping old one (equivlent) and are making it sleepwalk to do their bidding. I laughed when I read it

[cornholioprime]

Arise, arise necro-thread!

Since I'm here anyway, the idea that nowhere says Xy lost anything in becoming Thoth is wrong. In his write up for Dragons & Gods, it specifically notes that all of Thoth's powers from his previous life as an Old One were lost, under natural abilities.

We can also just use deductive reasoning to realize that Thoth, though more powerful than your average god, is not just Xy in ibis-headed clothing: Xy was the most powerful Old One; Xy became Thoth; Thoth is less powerful than Slyth; therefore, Xy must have lost power in becoming Thoth.

There is far, far, far more to being Amongst The Most Mighty, than just stats on paper.

For generations, now, the Old Ones -whose "on paper" stats are at more or less the exact same level that they were when the first PFRPG Books started giving them stats way back when -were STILL said to be the most powerful of the Alien Intelligences. Even within the pages of Pantheons of the Megaverse, the author pays tribute to them as being the greatest of all, despite the tremendous number of beings in that book whose plain numbers are far greater than those of the Old Ones.

In terms of just numbers on a page, the Dragon Gods are as far above the Old Ones as the Old Ones are above the relatively puny Vampire Intelligences -and it STILL took not just Kym-Nark-Mar with all his vast mystical and physical might, but also Thoth and Lictalon just to put them to sleep.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That's not quite accurate, Corny. Only ONE old one was stated in PFRPG, and it was NOT a great old one, it was actually a lesser old one and stated to be FAR less powerful than the likes of Agu and ya-blik.

also remember that SDC did not even exist in 1e PFRPG, so one has to assume that Slyth would have a lot of it in the present edition just like the gods did.

[The Dark Elf]

Syth, The Old One

Syth is a lesser Old One, an ancient alien intelligence who, may not be as powerful as the famous Old Ones whose names have become words power, but is still and incredible force equal of the most powerful gods. Despite its claims of being awake and ready to assume its place in the world as master of all life, the magic slumber and other means of magic imprisonment are still in force and limits its current level of power to about one, one hundredth its normal level. Syth cannot break the bonds that hold him without help. Furthermore, it cannot think clearly and constantly fights to stay awake, knowing that if it gives in to the beckoning sleep, it will fall back into the enchanted slumber for millennium, perhaps all eternity. If it gets loose, it will change the face of the planet.

Alignment: Diabolic evil
Note: No other specific information is pertinent.

To summarise: SYTH

[Shawn Merrow]

That's not quite accurate, Corny. Only ONE old one was stated in PFRPG, and it was NOT a great old one, it was actually a lesser old one and stated to be FAR less powerful than the likes of Agu and ya-blik.

Old Ones 1st edition has stats for Agu, Al-vil, Erva, Netosa, Tarm-kin-toe, Ya-ahk-met and Ya-blik on page 210.

[Chronicle]

The major problem is, their powers were described as being able to destroy a world in the blink of an eye (Possibly exaggerated), what is Cormal but a Living world.

It would be a tough ruling, though in my opinion 1/100'th power level doesn't mean levels.

[Tor]

based upon available information on Cormal and the (woefully unimformative statistics) on Slyth in the Old Ones PFRPG book that Slyth was a Level 30 Alien Intelligence (We deduce this from the Witch of Slyth's, Sharr Cruant. Who, thanks to her Gift of Union with Slyth, can cast any "common" spell, level 1-15, at 10th level).

Nice find, good way to reverse-engineer based on available data.

Cormal is "only" level 25, based upon his magical abilities. HOWEVER, Cormal's statistics, which are WAY more complete than than Slyth's, show him to be WELL beyond what would be considered "Normal" Alien Intelligence power levels. Even Nxla, an Alien Intelligence of extraordinary power, doesn't compare to Cormal.

Cormal may know more spells, but what about Nxla's experience level?

We are not explicitly told what it is, unless it was added to later reprints of Psyscape I'm not aware of.

If we assume him to have the Harvester OCC which he teaches to his minions, we can estimate his experience level based upon how many Xombies he can control, a form of reverse-engineering similar to your Witch calculation.

Seeing as how Harvesters can control 1 per level and Nxla can control 10 thousand...

He may not be able to cast Annihilate, but why would he want to, with a 1d6x10,000 MD Call Lightning?

Thoth, who is the transformed Old One Xy ("POWER INCARNATE", Greatest Amongst The Legendary Old Ones!), doesn't even come CLOSE to Cormal's scale of power. Heck! Nxla ALONE puts Thoth to absolutely SHAME when comparing stats and Cormal makes Nxla look like a child.

Thoth is merely a god with some leftover AI boost, Splugorth put him to shame too, who cares? Splugorth aren't more powerful than Old Ones, much less Greater Old Ones, much less THE GREATEST of them. It's not very clear what percentage Thoth is of his former self so unless we can know that multiplier, we don't know what Xy was to compare him to later forces like Nxla (considered to be below Old Ones) or Cormal.

All He would have to do is EAT the Palladium World and BYE BYE Slyth.

If he took such a tactic, that would make him other enemies and indirect allies to Slyth, such as the posse who put all the Old Ones to sleep, and we know Cormal is vulnerable to napping.

Old Ones 1st edition has stats for Agu, Al-vil, Erva, Netosa, Tarm-kin-toe, Ya-ahk-met and Ya-blik on page 210.

This is pretty much impossible to get ahold of nowadays right? I don't think Palladium publishes the 1st ed books anymore...

The only One place I could find was the PDF sold at http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/6 ... tion-Rules and the free preview is just the first 6 pages (table of contents).

Also appears to be here http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=461 only 30 left... says only 210 pages os I guess all 7 GOO stats are jammed on the same page, can't be too extensive then.

One would reasonably expect that we should scale up their 1st ed stats by a comparable ratio that the original PRPG god/lord stats were scaled up in D&G.