Archie vs Coalition. Who wins, and why ?

[Giant2005]

Archie.
He knows where the CS is and they have no idea where he is, that means he gets to choose the location and time of battle.
That is an insurmountable advantage - he could wait until he has hundreds of millions of robots ready to send to war before the conflict occurs.

[Shark_Force]

the CS, because kevin siembieda says so.

(if you go with what's in the books, i really can't answer honestly. the CS is so ridiculous that i tend to just ignore the numbers that get thrown around for them).

(but if i absolutely must go with what's in the books, i'd say the CS would probably win on account of the stupid amount of troops they have, but not be able to deliver a killing blow because they don't know where ARCHIE is).

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Think this has been address in different threads

[Giant2005]

Think this has been address in different threads

yep and now we have three identical threads all bumped to the top...
Would have been better if you left the other two back in obscurity where they belong instead of having 3 active at once.

[jaymz]

Think this has been address in different threads

yep and now we have three identical threads all bumped to the top...
Would have been better if you left the other two back in obscurity where they belong instead of having 3 active at once.

also -

If Archie has time to just build troops cnstantly for 6 months....well he can outlast the CS in a war of contrition.

[cornholioprime]

As the title asks who wins in a war between Archie and the Coalition?

As they are right now in the books, minus 1 thing.

EDIT:
Archie is the initiator of the conflict, and has built up his forces for the past 6 months. Whos the winner ?

The Coalition.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE in terms of sustained combat for ARCHIE to get his armies deployed in numbers sufficient to cause the Coalition problems (much less a challenge) without being able to be backtracked.

Occasional shipment of limited numbers of Titan Industries robots via his network? No problem.

But mass-deploying waves of his robots without being detected? Not even close to possible....unless he takes up magic and learns how to rift them into the field.

And let's not even get into the numbers involved here; the Coalition might very well have more Dog-Boys alone than ARCHIE has robots in his entire inventory (he only has about a few hundred thousand or so AFAIK).

[jaymz]

And let's not even get into the numbers involved here; the Coalition might very well have more Dog-Boys alone than ARCHIE has robots in his entire inventory (he only has about a few hundred thousand or so AFAIK).

Pretty sure that can be taken care of since the OP did say Archie had been building up his forces for 6 months. Archie building up forces for 6 months night and day 7 days a week non-stop. Archie's only real failing is a lack of airbourne bots.

[Cyber-Knight]

Think this has been address in different threads

You say that as if it's been addressed recently. The threads you bumped were six and seven years old, and are now locked due to your thread necromancy.

And to answer the OP's question, the Coalition wins. The Coalition ALWAYS wins. The Coalition could be facing the full might of Atlantis and the other three planets under Splynncryth's control and still somehow come out on top and ready to pulverize Lazlo, the Xiticix, and everyone else.

[cornholioprime]

And let's not even get into the numbers involved here; the Coalition might very well have more Dog-Boys alone than ARCHIE has robots in his entire inventory (he only has about a few hundred thousand or so AFAIK).

Pretty sure that can be taken care of since the OP did say Archie had been building up his forces for 6 months. Archie building up forces for 6 months night and day 7 days a week non-stop. Archie's only real failing is a lack of airbourne bots.

ARCHIE has been building up forces for DECADES and he still has only a relatively paltry total force of a few tens of thousands of troops...if that.

Contrary to what some might be erroneously thinking, ARCHIE doesn't actually have all that many production plants in existence for his own 'bots; he might very well have much more out there in the way of Titan Industries manufacturing capability than he does in terms of his actual troops.

And as far as raw numbers go:

TOTAL number of all of ARCHIE's personal robots (as opposed to Titan Industries creations) as of P.A. 109:
roughly 60,000. This includes approximately 20,000 Shemarrians.

SOURCES: Rifts Sourcebook One, revised, as well as Rifts: Shemarrian Nation pages 10-23.


TOTAL number of Coalition Skelebots alone as of P.A. 105-109:
approximately 400,000 (of these, 316,000 out of an original 500,000were sent to the Final Siege of Tolkeen).

SOURCES: Rifts: Coalition War Machine, page 122; Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen 6: Final Siege, page 12.

The Coalition could make a better (albeit futile) stand against Atlantis itself, than ARCHIE could ever hope to do against the Coalition.

[Giant2005]

The Coalition is a war-mongering nation always looking for its next conquest. It is reasonable to consider its deployment of bots it at least close to its maximum production.
Archie is an entity actively trying not to draw attention to itself. It is reasonable to believe that its deployment of bots has been kept at a minimum compared to its capabilities in order to remain undetected.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Coalition is a war-mongering nation always looking for its next conquest. It is reasonable to consider its deployment of bots it at least close to its maximum production.
Archie is an entity actively trying not to draw attention to itself. It is reasonable to believe that its deployment of bots has been kept at a minimum compared to its capabilities in order to remain undetected.

Agreed.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It's comes down what type of campaign , archie3 uses against the coalition.

He could use old nema style power armor and robot vechiles, power with ai units and robots incased in old style nema body armor. Then have them coming from the west, which be seen as the Neeman returning to fight the evil of the land once again, drawing in a lot of beings under nema flag, causing all types of problems for the CS. Plus he actually bases the out west this draws CS away from the east coast.

Then you got the Trojan horse gambit, where Archie keeps slowly and steady replacing skelebots until every one of them are under his control, then Archie targets city communication systems. Now imagine the ideas of freedom, showing the true American history and showing the coalition's true nature and other groups there shared their way of thinking.

Archie offers a peace treaty/allaince with the coalition states, Archie tells them, he done the calucations, an alliance is the best for both parties, he offers intel on all the coalition enemies, real time communication for the coalition troops, a navy that rivals any pre-rifts nation, robots and other equipment that make traix/NGR look like a child's toy and all the coalition has to do in their part is help him serve his purpose reclaim north America in the name of humanity.

Think this has been address in different threads

yep and now we have three identical threads all bumped to the top...
Would have been better if you left the other two back in obscurity where they belong instead of having 3 active at once.

Maybe , maybe not, or perhaps it was help encourage so outside the normal thinking, time isn't Archie enemy. What happens if Archie gains control of the coalition tv and radio stations for the general public and runs a history channel style special of the rise and fall of nazi Germany with comparing it the karl prosek's coalition states from the main source(inside job).

[jaymz]

And let's not even get into the numbers involved here; the Coalition might very well have more Dog-Boys alone than ARCHIE has robots in his entire inventory (he only has about a few hundred thousand or so AFAIK).

Pretty sure that can be taken care of since the OP did say Archie had been building up his forces for 6 months. Archie building up forces for 6 months night and day 7 days a week non-stop. Archie's only real failing is a lack of airbourne bots.

ARCHIE has been building up forces for DECADES and he still has only a relatively paltry total force of a few tens of thousands of troops...if that.

Contrary to what some might be erroneously thinking, ARCHIE doesn't actually have all that many production plants in existence for his own 'bots; he might very well have much more out there in the way of Titan Industries manufacturing capability than he does in terms of his actual troops.

And as far as raw numbers go:

TOTAL number of all of ARCHIE's personal robots (as opposed to Titan Industries creations) as of P.A. 109:
roughly 60,000. This includes approximately 20,000 Shemarrians.

SOURCES: Rifts Sourcebook One, revised, as well as Rifts: Shemarrian Nation pages 10-23.


TOTAL number of Coalition Skelebots alone as of P.A. 105-109:
approximately 400,000 (of these, 316,000 out of an original 500,000were sent to the Final Siege of Tolkeen).

SOURCES: Rifts: Coalition War Machine, page 122; Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen 6: Final Siege, page 12.

The Coalition could make a better (albeit futile) stand against Atlantis itself, than ARCHIE could ever hope to do against the Coalition.

The big difference here is he has never been stated as actively building up for war. In fact I have seen it written than several factories aren't even use at the moment. That would indicate, at least to me, that he could have SIGNIFICANTLY greater numbers if he were to put his mind to it.

[Cyber-Knight]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's comes down what type of campaign , archie3 uses against the coalition.

Yup.
Basically, there's not enough information in the books, or in this scenario, for us to say what would happen.

[jaymz]

It's comes down what type of campaign , archie3 uses against the coalition.

Yup.
Basically, there's not enough information in the books, or in this scenario, for us to say what would happen.

Yep

[Blue_Lion]

CS wins they have more fans.

[Mack]

Archie has a huge flaw that he'd have to over come: Being Archie.

His psychological issues would torpedo his success.

[masslegion]

Archie has a huge flaw that he'd have to over come: Being Archie.

His psychological issues would torpedo his success.

This is a VERY GOOD point.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Archie has a huge flaw that he'd have to over come: Being Archie.

His psychological issues would torpedo his success.

This is a VERY GOOD point.

On the other side, we have the writers who's severe lack of military knowledge, in part, hobbles the CS true effectiveness too.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It's comes down what type of campaign , archie3 uses against the coalition.

Yup.
Basically, there's not enough information in the books, or in this scenario, for us to say what would happen.

Very true, most of these "what if" aren't covered by canon.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

[Shark_Force]

wouldn't be much point in making each and everyone one a war goddess. it's good to have generals and admirals. it is not so good for every soldier to be a general or admiral.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

[masslegion]

wouldn't be much point in making each and everyone one a war goddess. it's good to have generals and admirals. it is not so good for every soldier to be a general or admiral.

The whole general think is part of the lie. Although the war goddess is the only bot with nothing but a N.I. The War Goddess is immensely powerful and capable of taking on many troops 3 to 1. Most of the Shemarrian forces can take on forces from the Coalition easy equal to 2 or three times the size of the number of Shemarrian Warriors within their war party..

[masslegion]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

good point

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Did I said it would be overnight? No this a long term one, and once it starts it will be the one even Karl can't put out.

[Shark_Force]

i dunno. i just don't see ARCHIE producing enough 'bots in only 6 months to be able to deal with the *drastically* larger number of CS troops that the books claim. not that i agree with the CS's supposed troop figures, mind you, but if we take them to be accurate, then the CS has an army of at least a couple million soldiers, plus a bunch of troops that aren't soldiers officially but for all intents and purposes are in fact soldiers (ISS officer in SAMAS may not be a soldier on paper, but they'll do the job in a pinch if they have to). they also have an unspecified but large number of dog boys (iirc several hundred thousand dog boys were deployed to tolkeen at one point), and an unspecified but large number of skelebots (again, pretty sure this is at least a few hundred thousand).

and the capacity to pretty much pump out more of those things pretty much on a whim. i mean, if the CS decided, *officially*, they could issue an old-style SAMAS to 1.6 million grunts (they'd just have to take it out of mothballs), instead of leaving them in standard body armor. we don't even know how many of their old style 'bots went into mothballs, but i'm sure if pressed hard enough, they'd pull them out of storage.

i'm just not seeing how ARCHIE in 6 months is supposed to go from having under 100,000 robots to having enough to deal with the (official) 2-3 million or more troops that the CS has according to the books.

also, i really doubt ARCHIE would reveal his hand by using the shemarrians in any event. or anything from titan robotics for that matter (unless it could be made to look like mercenaries using the vehicles).

[Cyber-Knight]

i'm just not seeing how ARCHIE in 6 months is supposed to go from having under 100,000 robots to having enough to deal with the (official) 2-3 million or more troops that the CS has according to the books.

In another thread they were talking about how ARCHIE's capable of churning out 400,000 robots per month if he really wanted to. So in six months that's 2.4 million robots in addition to what he already has. That'd be more than enough to go head-to-head with the Coalition, and that's in the opening days of the war. As it drags on the Coalition's losing soldiers which aren't so easy to replace while ARCHIE-3 is still pumping out 400,000 new soldiers every month.

[Cyber-Knight]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

Agreed.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Did I said it would be overnight? No this a long term one, and once it starts it will be the one even Karl can't put out.

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of the CS airwaves?

How long do you think before the CS turns off the transmitters? With high explosives if necessary? (( Likely just unplug them.)) The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

[Nightmask]

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of
the CS airwaves?

Are you saying it is impossible for a Machine Entity, to take over another machine
and literally take over its broadcasting abilities ?

The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer
broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds
to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

True as that maybe, Archie could still use the internet of the CS. There is no plug in
for the internet.

Well with a Machine Entity in control of things it'd take quite a bit to shut off transmitters, like 'rip out the power conduits' or 'blow up the generators' since so many things are set up for remote control and override you'd pretty much have to destroy the physical connections to shut things down.

[Shark_Force]

i'm just not seeing how ARCHIE in 6 months is supposed to go from having under 100,000 robots to having enough to deal with the (official) 2-3 million or more troops that the CS has according to the books.

In another thread they were talking about how ARCHIE's capable of churning out 400,000 robots per month if he really wanted to. So in six months that's 2.4 million robots in addition to what he already has. That'd be more than enough to go head-to-head with the Coalition, and that's in the opening days of the war. As it drags on the Coalition's losing soldiers which aren't so easy to replace while ARCHIE-3 is still pumping out 400,000 new soldiers every month.

i'd be curious to see how they came up with that number for ARCHIE's production capabilities...

with that said, if there's anything the siege on tolkeen books have taught us, it's that canonically the CS actually can lose millions of troops and not just replace them, but increase the size of their military beyond their already-ridiculous numbers, no matter how badly the war is going. just because the CS shouldn't be able to continue sending the troops into the meat grinder willy-nilly doesn't mean that they don't have that ability canonically.

[Nether]

It's comes down what type of campaign , archie3 uses against the coalition.

He could use old nema style power armor and robot vechiles, power with ai units and robots incased in old style nema body armor. Then have them coming from the west, which be seen as the Neeman returning to fight the evil of the land once again, drawing in a lot of beings under nema flag, causing all types of problems for the CS. Plus he actually bases the out west this draws CS away from the east coast.

Then you got the Trojan horse gambit, where Archie keeps slowly and steady replacing skelebots until every one of them are under his control, then Archie targets city communication systems. Now imagine the ideas of freedom, showing the true American history and showing the coalition's true nature and other groups there shared their way of thinking.

Archie offers a peace treaty/allaince with the coalition states, Archie tells them, he done the calucations, an alliance is the best for both parties, he offers intel on all the coalition enemies, real time communication for the coalition troops, a navy that rivals any pre-rifts nation, robots and other equipment that make traix/NGR look like a child's toy and all the coalition has to do in their part is help him serve his purpose reclaim north America in the name of humanity.

Think this has been address in different threads

yep and now we have three identical threads all bumped to the top...
Would have been better if you left the other two back in obscurity where they belong instead of having 3 active at once.

Maybe , maybe not, or perhaps it was help encourage so outside the normal thinking, time isn't Archie enemy. What happens if Archie gains control of the coalition tv and radio stations for the general public and runs a history channel style special of the rise and fall of nazi Germany with comparing it the karl prosek's coalition states from the main source(inside job).

You completely surprised me with this response. (pleasantly as i agree with it)

I just expected heavy CS favortism

[Nether]

i'm just not seeing how ARCHIE in 6 months is supposed to go from having under 100,000 robots to having enough to deal with the (official) 2-3 million or more troops that the CS has according to the books.

In another thread they were talking about how ARCHIE's capable of churning out 400,000 robots per month if he really wanted to. So in six months that's 2.4 million robots in addition to what he already has. That'd be more than enough to go head-to-head with the Coalition, and that's in the opening days of the war. As it drags on the Coalition's losing soldiers which aren't so easy to replace while ARCHIE-3 is still pumping out 400,000 new soldiers every month.

i'd be curious to see how they came up with that number for ARCHIE's production capabilities...

with that said, if there's anything the siege on tolkeen books have taught us, it's that canonically the CS actually can lose millions of troops and not just replace them, but increase the size of their military beyond their already-ridiculous numbers, no matter how badly the war is going. just because the CS shouldn't be able to continue sending the troops into the meat grinder willy-nilly doesn't mean that they don't have that ability canonically.

This is a mixed bag for me as i can see some things but then yet it also doesnt make sense. To explain this vague comment;

The US Military has about 1.5 million active personal and about 800k reserve (as of 2010). They own all of the United States for population and production.
The CS has a Military of about 1.2 million and I dont believe that includes defense forces at the major cities. Now the CS doesnt even own half of the US, and they dont have cities connected to other cities because they are covering so much area, but the CS would have to be living in high density population accommodations. So i see the avg CS citz living in a place more akin to a Japanese citz today living in Tokyo. Much smaller place. Because of pop density they could definitely have more people for those same occupied areas. As well the CS is very heavy propaganda added with pro humans in a apocalypse surrounded by monsters, they would naturally have much much higher percentage of their overall population willing to serv. Technically it should be mandatory for ALL citz to serv min 2 years in the military i am thinking but w/e.

So i can accept the military size no prob, but as you mention the whole 'gone thru a war and got bigger' military just completely lobotomizes me. The fact that their military size got bigger right after a massive war against Tolkeen that broke and smashed the CS military in the process is preposterous to put is softly. The end result of that war should have left the CS military in shambles, which means greatly reduced with alot of disabled vets as they wouldnt be able to pump out that much cyber ext to completely fix all of them.

Now for Archie, i see him as many already mentioned, he is sitting 'dormant' for lack of a better term as he is not in the process of building a military force, but Always always preparing for it. So he would have many factories created and at the ready to pump out forces en-masse. He could have a good many of the pre rifts installations hidden and just waiting to come online not to mention stockpiles upon stockpiles of resources not to mention him thru the 300 year dark age would be also stockpiling for insane amounts of fast production.

The forces Archie would have I see as only a light defense force essentially to protect the vast amount of factories and stockpiles he has and nothing more. Archie is always psychologically preparing, prepare, prepare, prepare and I see him having a hard time when it comes to actually 'mobilize and go to war'. That is why I think he would desperately need the frozen Nema general / Republicans / Nemo to merge with him to allow him to properly wage war effectively.

But here is the Archie kicker for me, is during the Apocalypse, the descriptions of the stories from those books and the mindset it gives, like Norad blowing up ext, is that sooo many of the facilities would have been destroyed during that time, and the ones that weren't would have been flocked to by human forces in order to try maintain some strength; which in the process would lead the dark forces into again destroying them in the process of slaying the human defenders.

So to me, alot of Archie's production facilities would have been created after the apocalypse and where other nations built militaries, ARchie went purely for the mass increase of infrastructure which would rival anything in NA by alot. (kind of like in WW2, the US could out produces prolly all the other allies combined)

Just adding my 2c

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of the CS airwaves?

How long do you think before the CS turns off the transmitters? With high explosives if necessary? (( Likely just unplug them.)) The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

true but what if it every transmitter in every cs town not just the big one, sirens going off 3-4am in morning , followed by a combination of words that make not sense to the cs civilians but the cs military might think other wise, sure they pull the plug and destroy the radio transmitters, show their citizens they cant stop this , they have not control over it, and once they think its over it starts back up , meanwhile everybody get a morning emails with images of the nazi death camps and coalition death camp in every cs city and this continues until the CS figures a way to stop this, more resources used to fight this and cs looking like they are losing control, more ghosts to chase, and acting the way he wants them in the typical coalition thuggish manner.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

never underestimate the power of dead bodies, especially dead bodies of children.

[Nether]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Did I said it would be overnight? No this a long term one, and once it starts it will be the one even Karl can't put out.

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of the CS airwaves?

How long do you think before the CS turns off the transmitters? With high explosives if necessary? (( Likely just unplug them.)) The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

Your talking about a genius AI toaster with advanced telemechanics and computer/technology skills adding the CS tech infrastructure as a part of his domain. The super toaster would dominate CS societies technological means. The CS would have such a difficult time combating Archie on the electrical playground that they would need to pull most of Psi-Bat telemechanic psychics off the lines and into defending their tech infrastructure in order to maintain control.

Sure it could be done and would need to be done otherwise you have;
-as you mentioned the CS would be blowing up all or most of it's communication/processing ability that they would have to operate like Battlestar Galactica human forces did, turn off the vast majority of computer connected tech and start doing things by hand which is also alot slower and time consuming, then use people or primitive tech to relay this info amongst them.

Archie isnt untouchable here, but this is obviously a strong point for him.

[Nether]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

I think you guys missed the part where the CS propaganda is telling it's people how good a nation the CS is, and that they are doing the humane thing, protecting humans, and they are a force for the greater good. That is what a CS citz would know, but then they are shown that that is very far from what is actually happening, they most definitely would start to question their leadership.

Even when the Allies rolled in near the end of the war and showed the German people that there was death camps not so far away from them and what they were, I am pretty sure the avg German citz was appalled at that.

Same thing for the CS, is you start showing the people that what the leadership is doing is soo far from what they are saying, I am pretty darn sure that the population will have a problem with it. Because as far as they know, they're CS military of heroes is not slaughtering dbee villages, trying to commit mass genocide on a nation that didnt start a war with them which was also filled with humans, death camps for mages and the inhumane treatment of them human or not ext.

The reason Propaganda is used soo strongly is because the leadership needs to keep its people illiterate and ignorant to what they want to do, otherwise the people would rebel, or at the very least you would have resistance groups (terrorists) amongst formed from withing teh CS pop. Propaganda is Deception on a mass scale, and the only reason you 'deceive' someone is because they prolly wont agree.

The Neeman legend has nothing to do with this as it is a story modified over time to become what it is, and doesnt affect how it's own people saw the Neemans.

It also doesnt matter if their is Jews in Rifts today, as it is about the people believing their government is good and doing the right thing morally, hence why propaganda is so important, to make the masses believe something that isnt true.

What you and Pepsi describe would be a nation that 'didnt' use propaganda and still supported it's government regardless of what they were doing.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think you guys missed the part where the CS propaganda is telling it's people how good a nation the CS is, and that they are doing the humane thing, protecting humans, and they are a force for the greater good. That is what a CS citz would know, but then they are shown that that is very far from what is actually happening, they most definitely would start to question their leadership.

Even when the Allies rolled in near the end of the war and showed the German people that there was death camps not so far away from them and what they were, I am pretty sure the avg German citz was appalled at that.

Same thing for the CS, is you start showing the people that what the leadership is doing is soo far from what they are saying, I am pretty darn sure that the population will have a problem with it. Because as far as they know, they're CS military of heroes is not slaughtering dbee villages, trying to commit mass genocide on a nation that didnt start a war with them which was also filled with humans, death camps for mages and the inhumane treatment of them human or not ext.

The reason Propaganda is used soo strongly is because the leadership needs to keep its people illiterate and ignorant to what they want to do, otherwise the people would rebel, or at the very least you would have resistance groups (terrorists) amongst formed from withing teh CS pop. Propaganda is Deception on a mass scale, and the only reason you 'deceive' someone is because they prolly wont agree.

there were some towns in germany where everybody knew what was going on but turned a blind-eye to it until it was thrown back into their face, the trains run on time , food is in the stores, cute human heart warming story, and government in control, well now replace trains are running 4 hours behind because of glitches, food shipments are late because of shipping errors, images of dead kids anytime you turn the tv on or 19 thousand CS V-mail with image of dead bodies, and the government cant stop the 3 am fire alarm from going off, how in the heck are those idoits keeping anybody safe, i going back to the burbs atleast i can get fresh air there , and not with this air that smells of week dead roadkill, and what is about "Kilroy" and" a fox in the greenhouse". its about wearing down the people confident in the government, if you they dont have confident, they dont follow the party line , they ask questions, they dont see karl as the savior and protector. Karl is power and control freak , and once he start losing that, then look that v-mail from Kilroy was right!!!

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of the CS airwaves?

How long do you think before the CS turns off the transmitters? With high explosives if necessary? (( Likely just unplug them.)) The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

true but what if it every transmitter in every cs town not just the big one, sirens going off 3-4am in morning , followed by a combination of words that make not sense to the cs civilians but the cs military might think other wise, sure they pull the plug and destroy the radio transmitters, show their citizens they cant stop this , they have not control over it, and once they think its over it starts back up , meanwhile everybody get a morning emails with images of the nazi death camps and coalition death camp in every cs city and this continues until the CS figures a way to stop this, more resources used to fight this and cs looking like they are losing control, more ghosts to chase, and acting the way he wants them in the typical coalition thuggish manner.

So the CS, known for it's propaganda corps and militarized state, allows for mass market public information sources, to NOT be run by one of it's millions of troops?

The MINUTE non authorized programming starts up. Someone at the station reaches to the right and unplugs the transmitter. You can't hack something physically disabled. They simply unplug the transmitter from the feed. This takes seconds.

Why do they do this you ask? Because it's the CS. You can be imprisoned or shot on sight for seditious behavior. They're not going to let seditious programming go out over the airwaves and just hope the CS troops don't shoot them when they show up.

That's also assuming each CS town some how has it's own programming NOT controlled from the megacities and broadcast via repeaters. I don't see that as being so. I see the feed going out from the megacities and picked up via the smaller repeaters and broadcast on.

Could you hack that if you were archie? Possibly, but again the people at the repeating station will be CS people. Not just random guys sitting around. So when the pirate feed comes in, Standard Operating Procedure will be "TERMINATE ANY PIRATE FEEDS WITH IN 60 SECONDS OR FACE CHARGES" the people there are going to unplug the transmitters. So even if hacked the physical uplink is severed so nothing gets piped out. If nothing else they can unplug the transmitter from the power source. Be it the power grid or generator. Shy of having robots on scene to fight off the physical personell, Archie can't stop that, and if he does, the CS military will roll in TOOT sweet to the hijacking of CS equipment and spread of seditious materials.

Then what? Well. The CS looks for who's messing with it.

Archie doesn't want to be found, and TV Feed isn't his style. He's a bit of a scardy cat.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

never underestimate the power of dead bodies, especially dead bodies of children.

Never underestimate the power of REAL LIVE MONSTERS, DEMONS, DEVILS, ALIENS, DBEES, DINOSAURS and 200 years of being preyed on by said creatures, to sway public opinion.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your talking about a genius AI toaster with advanced telemechanics and computer/technology skills adding the CS tech infrastructure as a part of his domain. The super toaster would dominate CS societies technological means. The CS would have such a difficult time combating Archie on the electrical playground that they would need to pull most of Psi-Bat telemechanic psychics off the lines and into defending their tech infrastructure in order to maintain control.

Nope. You just unplug the transmitter. Any dork can do it.

Sure it could be done and would need to be done otherwise you have;
-as you mentioned the CS would be blowing up all or most of it's communication/processing ability that they would have to operate like Battlestar Galactica human forces did, turn off the vast majority of computer connected tech and start doing things by hand which is also alot slower and time consuming, then use people or primitive tech to relay this info amongst them.

We're talking about TV here. if the CS populace has to do with out tv for a while to combat this Alien menace (( Alien as in strange unknown, not extra terrestrial.)) then they will. No huge deal.

Archie isnt untouchable here, but this is obviously a strong point for him.

He's also not omnipresent. His abilitys don't reach across the continent. he's quite powerful, for sure, but unless he sends out robots to physically turn things back on or replug them in, he can be stopped by a 10 year old getting a phone call and told to unplug the transmitter. Much less who ever actually works there and upkeeps it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of the CS airwaves?

How long do you think before the CS turns off the transmitters? With high explosives if necessary? (( Likely just unplug them.)) The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

true but what if it every transmitter in every cs town not just the big one, sirens going off 3-4am in morning , followed by a combination of words that make not sense to the cs civilians but the cs military might think other wise, sure they pull the plug and destroy the radio transmitters, show their citizens they cant stop this , they have not control over it, and once they think its over it starts back up , meanwhile everybody get a morning emails with images of the nazi death camps and coalition death camp in every cs city and this continues until the CS figures a way to stop this, more resources used to fight this and cs looking like they are losing control, more ghosts to chase, and acting the way he wants them in the typical coalition thuggish manner.

So the CS, known for it's propaganda corps and militarized state, allows for mass market public information sources, to NOT be run by one of it's millions of troops?

The MINUTE non authorized programming starts up. Someone at the station reaches to the right and unplugs the transmitter. You can't hack something physically disabled. They simply unplug the transmitter from the feed. This takes seconds.

Why do they do this you ask? Because it's the CS. You can be imprisoned or shot on sight for seditious behavior. They're not going to let seditious programming go out over the airwaves and just hope the CS troops don't shoot them when they show up.

That's also assuming each CS town some how has it's own programming NOT controlled from the megacities and broadcast via repeaters. I don't see that as being so. I see the feed going out from the megacities and picked up via the smaller repeaters and broadcast on.

Could you hack that if you were archie? Possibly, but again the people at the repeating station will be CS people. Not just random guys sitting around. So when the pirate feed comes in, Standard Operating Procedure will be "TERMINATE ANY PIRATE FEEDS WITH IN 60 SECONDS OR FACE CHARGES" the people there are going to unplug the transmitters. So even if hacked the physical uplink is severed so nothing gets piped out. If nothing else they can unplug the transmitter from the power source. Be it the power grid or generator. Shy of having robots on scene to fight off the physical personell, Archie can't stop that, and if he does, the CS military will roll in TOOT sweet to the hijacking of CS equipment and spread of seditious materials.

Then what? Well. The CS looks for who's messing with it.

Archie doesn't want to be found, and TV Feed isn't his style. He's a bit of a scardy cat.

Very true, but change that idea man and then Archie becames less of a joke and more a threat.

[Cyber-Knight]

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

never underestimate the power of dead bodies, especially dead bodies of children.

Never underestimate the power of REAL LIVE MONSTERS, DEMONS, DEVILS, ALIENS, DBEES, DINOSAURS and 200 years of being preyed on by said creatures, to sway public opinion.

Particularly if those dead bodies are either of A) People which the Coalition successfully convinces its citizenry of being akin to D-Bee's, or B) People which the Coalition successfully convinces its citizenry of worshipping alien supernatural powers, and thus as having been in league with enemies of humanity and deserving of their fates. The Coalition does that sort of thing all the time and they get the stamp of approval from Average Joe Coalition. Seeing the results of what they support might shock them, but only at first, and at the end of the day things'll go right back to normal.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

never underestimate the power of dead bodies, especially dead bodies of children.

Never underestimate the power of REAL LIVE MONSTERS, DEMONS, DEVILS, ALIENS, DBEES, DINOSAURS and 200 years of being preyed on by said creatures, to sway public opinion.

Particularly if those dead bodies are either of A) People which the Coalition successfully convinces its citizenry of being akin to D-Bee's, or B) People which the Coalition successfully convinces its citizenry of worshipping alien supernatural powers, and thus as having been in league with enemies of humanity and deserving of their fates. The Coalition does that sort of thing all the time and they get the stamp of approval from Average Joe Coalition. Seeing the results of what they support might shock them, but only at first, and at the end of the day things'll go right back to normal.

That might the CS military, but somehow CS civilians see who is being done in their name , I have a feeling that might be a different story, some of Karl Prosek opponents are within CS civilian government.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

@PJ pm sent

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't know how effective something like that would be. The majority of Coalition citizens are utterly ignorant of world history. A comparison to Nazi Germany and Hitler would mean absolutely nothing to them. Hell, given how badly they've been brainwashed, they might listen to Hitler's speeches and come away thinking he's a great guy. After all, he's just like Karl, and everybody loves Karl.

Millions of death humans dead at the hands of governments with similar views, Archie doesn't need to burn the place down , all he has to do is light the fire.

I think you're vastly underestimating indoctrination.

If suddenly you turned on your TV and you saw a movie made by jihadists in the middle east telling you how evil the USA was, would you suddenly light a torch and take to the streets? Or smirk, call it stupid and change the channel?

But you expect the CS people, who the CS Military keep 'Safe' and alive in a world with REAL LIVE Demons and Dragons and monsters, to watch a show and suddenly shake their heads and riot and call for revolution?

I don't think so.

Agreed. Moreover, there's nothing about the Nazi's which CS citizens would likely find shocking, since Prosek went and based his entire regime around the Nazi's. If anything, it'd all seem very familiar to the average Coalition citizen. Come to think of it, do Jews even exist on Rifts Earth? Obviously there're people still alive with Jewish ancestry, but as a culture and a religion, does Judaism still exist? Are there people who still consider themselves to be Jews? Do Coalition citizens have any idea what they are? There're people alive today who think that Jews have horns. How hard would it be to convince the ignorant masses of the Coalition States that "Hey, they weren't humans, they were some other creatures?" After all, you have people who think that NEMA was a supernatural race of Demigods called the Neemans, and they existed after the Coming of the Rifts. How hard would it be to mythologize a group of people which effectively ceased to exist before the Coming of the Rifts? Nevermind the fact that they worship what the Coalition could paint as an alien intelligence, so even if they're considered human, the Coalition could paint them as being people no different than the denizes of Tolkeen, worshipping their alien, supernatural power and traitors to Humanity.

So yeah, I can't see your average Coalition citizen seeing a History Channel special on Nazi Germany compared to the Prosek regime and giving a hoot.

I think you guys missed the part where the CS propaganda is telling it's people how good a nation the CS is, and that they are doing the humane thing, protecting humans, and they are a force for the greater good. That is what a CS citz would know, but then they are shown that that is very far from what is actually happening, they most definitely would start to question their leadership.

That's the thing. It's NOT. The CS really IS protecting humanity. It really IS a power to keep humanity going. It really DOES fight monsters. Now.. the monsters don't see it that way, but the CS humans sure do. YOU are forgetting the 200 years of dark ages where countless monsters of every stripe preyed on the remnants of humanity unchecked. You're acting like they are all just misunderstood people with different colored skin or heads like in Star Trek. In rifts, monsters and such really exist and the CS keeps it's people safe from the REAL ones, and the preceived ones.

The CS just don't take the time to classify "Good alien invaders" and "bad alien invaders". The fact is they really ARE alien invaders and the CS civilians fears them. The CS military protects them. That endears an almost unshakable trust.

Even when the Allies rolled in near the end of the war and showed the German people that there was death camps not so far away from them and what they were, I am pretty sure the avg German citz was appalled at that.

Yeah, but those camps held humans. not 40 foot tall demons, or Neuron beasts, or brodkill, or t-rexes, or 100 other monstrous frightening things that the CS battles and keeps from eating humanity.

Even today, look at how many people won't vote for Obama, simply because he's black. Or how humans kill humans over a you tube video daring to disparage their prophet. Now tell me again after 200+ years of real life monsters of 1000 different kinds have preyed on humanity, how humanity would be just accepting of all the creatures and give them the benefit of the doubt?

Same thing for the CS, is you start showing the people that what the leadership is doing is soo far from what they are saying, I am pretty darn sure that the population will have a problem with it.

What do you think the CS leadership is doing to the average CS citizen, that they'd be opposed to?

Because as far as they know, they're CS military of heroes is not slaughtering dbee villages, trying to commit mass genocide on a nation that didnt start a war with them which was also filled with humans, death camps for mages and the inhumane treatment of them human or not ext.

Tolkeen was a demon loving and monstrous nation that militerized to take on the CS and defeat it. They delt with demons, their generals were evil and they rifted in demonic armies. You're not going to play the poor pitiful card on the CS populace.

The reason Propaganda is used soo strongly is because the leadership needs to keep its people illiterate and ignorant to what they want to do, otherwise the people would rebel, or at the very least you would have resistance groups (terrorists) amongst formed from withing teh CS pop. Propaganda is Deception on a mass scale, and the only reason you 'deceive' someone is because they prolly wont agree.

Have you turned on the news...... ever? lol

The Neeman legend has nothing to do with this as it is a story modified over time to become what it is, and doesnt affect how it's own people saw the Neemans.

It also doesnt matter if their is Jews in Rifts today, as it is about the people believing their government is good and doing the right thing morally, hence why propaganda is so important, to make the masses believe something that isnt true.

The thing with the CS, is that it IS true. They're just not doing it in a very nice fashion. And are lumping 'innocent' alien invaders in with the evil ones.

What you and Pepsi describe would be a nation that 'didnt' use propaganda and still supported it's government regardless of what they were doing.

They do use Propaganda. Same as ours does. Same as ----every---- nation has done since Rome where the town criers said what they were told to say. We have instant world wide news today and we still get our news from a few select sources. The CS don't.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're assuming that Archie can not only hack but hijack and maintain control of the CS airwaves?

How long do you think before the CS turns off the transmitters? With high explosives if necessary? (( Likely just unplug them.)) The CS would TOTALLY take down the TV transmissions vs let some insane computer broadcast seditious programming. I would think they'd shut them down with in seconds to be honest. Much less 'Long term' programming.

true but what if it every transmitter in every cs town not just the big one, sirens going off 3-4am in morning , followed by a combination of words that make not sense to the cs civilians but the cs military might think other wise, sure they pull the plug and destroy the radio transmitters, show their citizens they cant stop this , they have not control over it, and once they think its over it starts back up , meanwhile everybody get a morning emails with images of the nazi death camps and coalition death camp in every cs city and this continues until the CS figures a way to stop this, more resources used to fight this and cs looking like they are losing control, more ghosts to chase, and acting the way he wants them in the typical coalition thuggish manner.

So the CS, known for it's propaganda corps and militarized state, allows for mass market public information sources, to NOT be run by one of it's millions of troops?

The MINUTE non authorized programming starts up. Someone at the station reaches to the right and unplugs the transmitter. You can't hack something physically disabled. They simply unplug the transmitter from the feed. This takes seconds.

Why do they do this you ask? Because it's the CS. You can be imprisoned or shot on sight for seditious behavior. They're not going to let seditious programming go out over the airwaves and just hope the CS troops don't shoot them when they show up.

That's also assuming each CS town some how has it's own programming NOT controlled from the megacities and broadcast via repeaters. I don't see that as being so. I see the feed going out from the megacities and picked up via the smaller repeaters and broadcast on.

Could you hack that if you were archie? Possibly, but again the people at the repeating station will be CS people. Not just random guys sitting around. So when the pirate feed comes in, Standard Operating Procedure will be "TERMINATE ANY PIRATE FEEDS WITH IN 60 SECONDS OR FACE CHARGES" the people there are going to unplug the transmitters. So even if hacked the physical uplink is severed so nothing gets piped out. If nothing else they can unplug the transmitter from the power source. Be it the power grid or generator. Shy of having robots on scene to fight off the physical personell, Archie can't stop that, and if he does, the CS military will roll in TOOT sweet to the hijacking of CS equipment and spread of seditious materials.

Then what? Well. The CS looks for who's messing with it.

Archie doesn't want to be found, and TV Feed isn't his style. He's a bit of a scardy cat.

Very true, but change that idea man and then Archie becames less of a joke and more a threat.

Oh I think he's a big threat, just not via TV to incite the populace.