Revolution is AWESOME!!!

[dragonfett]

I just watched NBC's newest TV show in Hulu this morning and instantly fell in love. Why am I posting this in the Rifts section you may ask? Because after watching the show, it got me thinking:

What would happen to let's say for the moment North America if all technology failed...
For a day?
For a week?
For a month?

Let's not focus on why it happened or why it only happened to the North American continent at the moment, I just want to here everyone's thoughts on the consequences.

Also, TW items that are at least 50% magical (particularly the power source) are mostly unaffected.

EDIT: All technology that requires some form of power (electrical, gasoline, etc.). Gun powder still works, gas still burns.

[Blue_Lion]

for most kindoms the resaults whould be cataclymic. FQ and the CS whould be whiped away, loanstar will be torn apart by test subjects. Merc town whould be cripled. Even most magical kindoms will see there abilty to hold off threats weakend. Without technolgy to defend them 1-2 minor demons could bring down chi town. Food distrubtion to most the kingdoms in the eastern half the old usa whould stop (most food is grown by cs) between not beeing able to fight of demons and monsters and lack of food most great kingdoms whould fall. The spirt nations of the west whould be fine but the tech indians and arzno whould fall. NGR whould get whiped out by gargole forces. Cambodia whould get over run by vampires. most dinasour hunters whould not be able to bring them down so many vilges that rely on them whould fail in the dinasor swamp. In a month civlazaton whould be set back as far as the last cataclysm.

[Killer Cyborg]

What level(s) of technology are we talking about failing?
Because, you know, even swords and knives are technology.

[dragonfett]

Mind you I only said North America, all other parts of the world are unaffected (for what ever reason).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Mind you I only said North America, all other parts of the world are unaffected (for what ever reason).

In the show it was the entire planet. There was a pretty nice shot from space where it showed the lights going out in NA and SA and parts of Europe could be seen going black too.

If you mean just for this thread, that's different.

I'd also say if you really liked "Revolution" you should check out SM Sterling's series, (( That this show was clearly, I won't say stolen, but HIGHLY Influenced. ))

[Blue_Lion]

What level(s) of technology are we talking about failing?
Because, you know, even swords and knives are technology.

I am asuming he ment anything electrical, Vibro knifes, cars. So a normal sword word work as whould a skate board or bicyle. Now a hight tech MDC suit of amor may still provide mdc but all other feauters are down.
Not shure why a event that stops all tech whould be limited to one content. The CS archogies whould be unihabitable in a mater of hours without the air ciclation system.

[azazel1024]

I think you watched a different show than what I watched. It was horrible.

Basic idea is just fine. Execution, 2 out of 10.

Come on, a USB necklace that can allow electricity to work? Really.

You allow it to work...and somehow it allows telephone/network cables between you and the person you are communicating with to also work? All of the power generators/batteries along the way to power the telecom equipment to also work? I assume there was a battery pack under the table, because I didn't see or hear a generator anywhere either.

Either make it magical or make it technology-psuedo magic, but don't make it some USB thumb drive that you load some code on. Sheesh.

Oh, and planes don't go spinning out of the sky if electricity stops working. They have these things called wings and most are not fly by wire or fly by light to top it off (and even if they were, they wouldn't go spinning).

Lastly, how does everyone have swords? This is all of 15 years later. A sword is not the easiest thing in the world to make. Muskets too? Again, why? They show a couple of modern guns. In the US there are so many friggen modern guns you wouldn't need to resort to muskets only 15 years later. Making reloads for modern guns is inifinitely easier than forging a sword or making a musket from scratch. That is ignoring the billions of rounds of ammo around the US for all of the hundre million plus modern fire arms laying around as well.

[Nether]

What Azrael said. +1

As for NA nations effected, well CS, FQ and ARchie would be devestated.
Archie, well he is already insane, but now becomes completely insane because he cant feel his body (all the complexes) anymore and he might just die if he is powered by a tech power source.
The CS/FQ wouldnt be able to communicate and would lose alot of functionality. Factories down, well they have lots of stuff at the moment but there would be no more production, so eventually what they have is gone for armor ext. Weapons though they are screwed as even railguns wouldnt function. This would completely remove the teeth from the wolf.

Magic nations like Dweomer/Stormspire would survive with little effect.

It would change the whole dynamic in NA about tech and magic, and magic would become greatly pursued overall. The CS/FQ would have to change their view on magic if they wanted to survive, as they would need to embrace TW's right now and get them in the door modding their stuff so all that tech could still function, and if they did this they would suffer a few years setback but would be able to maintain their empire and then eventually be able to grow again.

[Faceless Dude]

I think you watched a different show than what I watched. It was horrible.

Basic idea is just fine. Execution, 2 out of 10.

Come on, a USB necklace that can allow electricity to work? Really.

You allow it to work...and somehow it allows telephone/network cables between you and the person you are communicating with to also work? All of the power generators/batteries along the way to power the telecom equipment to also work? I assume there was a battery pack under the table, because I didn't see or hear a generator anywhere either.

Either make it magical or make it technology-psuedo magic, but don't make it some USB thumb drive that you load some code on. Sheesh.

Oh, and planes don't go spinning out of the sky if electricity stops working. They have these things called wings and most are not fly by wire or fly by light to top it off (and even if they were, they wouldn't go spinning).

Lastly, how does everyone have swords? This is all of 15 years later. A sword is not the easiest thing in the world to make. Muskets too? Again, why? They show a couple of modern guns. In the US there are so many friggen modern guns you wouldn't need to resort to muskets only 15 years later. Making reloads for modern guns is inifinitely easier than forging a sword or making a musket from scratch. That is ignoring the billions of rounds of ammo around the US for all of the hundre million plus modern fire arms laying around as well.

So they never explain why people aren't hand-loading their own bullets just 15 years later?

And USB necklaces will save the world?

Sheesh. My instincts were correct. I'm glad im avoiding this.


But regarding the question about all technology suddenly stopping working? Yeah, the CS and FQ are done for. Even if they embrace magic wholeheartedly the same day converting their economy and industry to run on magic will take years. Their society will have broken down in weeks. And that's not even mentioning that the majority of magic dependent/producing nations out there that the CS might turn to for aid is starting up will be attacking the CS at their weakest

[Nether]

So a bit more detailed,

CS/FQ will have massive problems as things like PA/RPA, vehicles ext just dont work. Missiles would need to be converted to mechanical ignition system but no guidance chips so it is unguided and really only effective at short range, even for LRMs.

Dunscon take prime time of this opportunity to stick it to the CS. If he is smart he will give it a bit of time to allow some of the EBA troops to wear down and anything that is useable to get burned up a bit in usage, then attack.

Tolkeen survivors most likely flock to Dunscon, even if they dont like him, but for the sole fact of the atrocities inflicted on them by the CS is enough to get them onboard especially considering how weak the CS is now.

Dunscon enslaves a good majority of the CS citz to show his anger, he doesnt kill Karl who he tortures and torments forever. Joseph escapes with some refuges to head to FQ.

FQ is stunned by this, and the BlackMarket leaders in FQ learn that TW still works and make pushes/power plays to change policy about magic. Still very pro human, but accepts magic and starts working overtime to get TW's in to convert priority gear. True TW GB's will become a force to reckon with but will be very small amount.

Dunscon though seems to love focusing on only his personal enemies leaves FQ alone for now and relishes in his imagined idea they are quaking in fear. So Dunscon turns his eye on Dweomer, who cant stay out of sight anymore.

Vamp Kingdoms take this opportunity to push into NA even more claiming the southern states, except a part of lonestar.

Lonestar out of tech but the mutant animals/humans pretty much take over and kill off the last of the CS becominig their own small nation. Lonestar elects a mutant animal as President / Emporerer and now breeding is very important for population growth/maintenance as test tubes dont work anymore.

Dweomer, Psyscape, Lazlo and FQ come into alliance and eventually are enough to hold Dunscon at bay, but now you have a powder keg or NA waiting to blow.

Dunscon now letting necromancers come out into the light since their art is more accepted and the mass death of CS troops allow Nxla to be raised...

Xititic surge to cover the vast NW of NA as any tech nations on their edges are useless.

So you are left with Dweomer, Psyscape, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Skyknights/cyberknights and FQ as the last bastions of anything good in a sea of darkness all around, like the much bigger now vampire kingdom, xititic to the NW, Nxla takes over the 'true' Fed of magic (now covers CS turf) from Dunscon but allows/amused to keep him as right hand man, and now that Nxla and the VK's have expanded, Splynn starts to take NA a little more serious.

[azazel1024]

Yup. Pretty much. I am giving it exactly 1 more episode to not suck.

I have little hope.

Like I said, I really like the concept, but the execution is shakey at best. It doesn't help that the concept is not terribly far of off S.M. Stirling's "Dies the Fire" series. That one IS well executed as well as very good writting.

In Dies the Fire, effectively technology stops working for more or less not understood mystical reasons. I mean ALL technology. Gun powder stops working, no internal combustion, steam power won't work, electricity a no go. In this case it is basically explained to be some kind of supernatural event. So instantly everyone is plunged in to the 12th century. No little USB necklace to make things work.

[Icefalcon]

Yup. Pretty much. I am giving it exactly 1 more episode to not suck.

I have little hope.

Like I said, I really like the concept, but the execution is shakey at best. It doesn't help that the concept is not terribly far of off S.M. Stirling's "Dies the Fire" series. That one IS well executed as well as very good writting.

In Dies the Fire, effectively technology stops working for more or less not understood mystical reasons. I mean ALL technology. Gun powder stops working, no internal combustion, steam power won't work, electricity a no go. In this case it is basically explained to be some kind of supernatural event. So instantly everyone is plunged in to the 12th century. No little USB necklace to make things work.

In the Emberverse novels, it is more accurate to say that any technology based on the laws of thermodynamics stops working.

As for Revolution, it was my understanding that the USB necklace worked a little differently. From what I understood, the USB drive held a program for the that was like an operating system for the necklace. The necklace itself seems to counteract whatever effect is keeping the electricity from working in a localized area. I agree that it still would not repair the communications lines between one computer and another but I am willing to watch a few more episodes to see how they explain this. As for the swords and such, 15 years would be enough time to mess around with techniques to get the creation of medieval weaponry correct. The best explanation for firearms is that it seems that one group has control of all of the weapons and it makes sense considering that everyone around them are outlawed from using guns. I do believe that there would be more guns out there but it is difficult to reproduce the powder used such guns for reloads. It takes factories to make modern gunpowder which would explain why they have resorted to muskets. That kind of gunpowder is much easier to make with lower tech levels.

[Blue_Lion]

So a bit more detailed,

CS/FQ will have massive problems as things like PA/RPA, vehicles ext just dont work. Missiles would need to be converted to mechanical ignition system but no guidance chips so it is unguided and really only effective at short range, even for LRMs.

Dunscon take prime time of this opportunity to stick it to the CS. If he is smart he will give it a bit of time to allow some of the EBA troops to wear down and anything that is useable to get burned up a bit in usage, then attack.

Tolkeen survivors most likely flock to Dunscon, even if they dont like him, but for the sole fact of the atrocities inflicted on them by the CS is enough to get them onboard especially considering how weak the CS is now.

Dunscon enslaves a good majority of the CS citz to show his anger, he doesnt kill Karl who he tortures and torments forever. Joseph escapes with some refuges to head to FQ.

FQ is stunned by this, and the BlackMarket leaders in FQ learn that TW still works and make pushes/power plays to change policy about magic. Still very pro human, but accepts magic and starts working overtime to get TW's in to convert priority gear. True TW GB's will become a force to reckon with but will be very small amount.

Dunscon though seems to love focusing on only his personal enemies leaves FQ alone for now and relishes in his imagined idea they are quaking in fear. So Dunscon turns his eye on Dweomer, who cant stay out of sight anymore.

Vamp Kingdoms take this opportunity to push into NA even more claiming the southern states, except a part of lonestar.

Lonestar out of tech but the mutant animals/humans pretty much take over and kill off the last of the CS becominig their own small nation. Lonestar elects a mutant animal as President / Emporerer and now breeding is very important for population growth/maintenance as test tubes dont work anymore.

Dweomer, Psyscape, Lazlo and FQ come into alliance and eventually are enough to hold Dunscon at bay, but now you have a powder keg or NA waiting to blow.

Dunscon now letting necromancers come out into the light since their art is more accepted and the mass death of CS troops allow Nxla to be raised...

Xititic surge to cover the vast NW of NA as any tech nations on their edges are useless.

So you are left with Dweomer, Psyscape, Lazlo, New Lazlo, Skyknights/cyberknights and FQ as the last bastions of anything good in a sea of darkness all around, like the much bigger now vampire kingdom, xititic to the NW, Nxla takes over the 'true' Fed of magic (now covers CS turf) from Dunscon but allows/amused to keep him as right hand man, and now that Nxla and the VK's have expanded, Splynn starts to take NA a little more serious.

You missed the part where the cs contained cities whould die, as they have no air circlation system so people whould suficate.

[azazel1024]

Yup. Pretty much. I am giving it exactly 1 more episode to not suck.

I have little hope.

Like I said, I really like the concept, but the execution is shakey at best. It doesn't help that the concept is not terribly far of off S.M. Stirling's "Dies the Fire" series. That one IS well executed as well as very good writting.

In Dies the Fire, effectively technology stops working for more or less not understood mystical reasons. I mean ALL technology. Gun powder stops working, no internal combustion, steam power won't work, electricity a no go. In this case it is basically explained to be some kind of supernatural event. So instantly everyone is plunged in to the 12th century. No little USB necklace to make things work.

In the Emberverse novels, it is more accurate to say that any technology based on the laws of thermodynamics stops working.

As for Revolution, it was my understanding that the USB necklace worked a little differently. From what I understood, the USB drive held a program for the that was like an operating system for the necklace. The necklace itself seems to counteract whatever effect is keeping the electricity from working in a localized area. I agree that it still would not repair the communications lines between one computer and another but I am willing to watch a few more episodes to see how they explain this. As for the swords and such, 15 years would be enough time to mess around with techniques to get the creation of medieval weaponry correct. The best explanation for firearms is that it seems that one group has control of all of the weapons and it makes sense considering that everyone around them are outlawed from using guns. I do believe that there would be more guns out there but it is difficult to reproduce the powder used such guns for reloads. It takes factories to make modern gunpowder which would explain why they have resorted to muskets. That kind of gunpowder is much easier to make with lower tech levels.

I could see with "peasants", sure. However, the "top dog" militia generally only being armed with basic muskets, bows and arrows and swords just doesn't make sense. Now granted this will not work in a lot of modern fire arms, but you CAN use black powder in reloads if you use the appropriate amount and are okay cleaning it VERY frequently. I doubt you could get it working in gas operated modern weapons. Or at least no more than a few rounds before it was hopelessly fouled. However, recoil operated weapons should work okay so long as you are not exceeding the maximum rated pressure with the reloads.

Mercury fulminate isn't much harder than BP (which isn't to say easy, but also if you are at the level of being able to make BP and muskets, if you have a little know how, mercury fulminate isn't that difficult).

Also see cleaning frequently. Still and all, I'd rather a .45 Colt 1911 that I could put a couple of clips of BP .45 ammo through it and then had to get out the gun cleaning kit than be stuck with something that might manage 1-2RPM.

That again doesn't touch on the enormous amount of modern ammo laying around, that at least militias should be able to get their hands on.

However, I am willing to give the show another shot tonight. I just still don't see how they can make it better, but hey, I tend to be a pessimist about most TV/movie.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you watched a different show than what I watched. It was horrible.

Basic idea is just fine. Execution, 2 out of 10.

While I agree with you on this, the points you bring up, not so much.

Come on, a USB necklace that can allow electricity to work? Really.

You allow it to work...and somehow it allows telephone/network cables between you and the person you are communicating with to also work? All of the power generators/batteries along the way to power the telecom equipment to also work? I assume there was a battery pack under the table, because I didn't see or hear a generator anywhere either.

Either make it magical or make it technology-psuedo magic, but don't make it some USB thumb drive that you load some code on. Sheesh.

That's the point, it IS Some sort of technology-psudo magic. We don't know what it -is- but we know there's something special about it, and we also know someone else has power as the instant she messaged the other side she got a reply. It's one of the "What's going on here" that is to hook the viewer into watching.

Oh, and planes don't go spinning out of the sky if electricity stops working. They have these things called wings and most are not fly by wire or fly by light to top it off (and even if they were, they wouldn't go spinning).

Yeah they have wings, but they also have huge jet engines providing thrust. With out those jet engines pushing the plane forward and thus air around the wings, they don't glide very far, if at all. yes there are glide ratios for those big planes but they're NOT what you might think they are. As for the spinning, that's easily explained as when the electricity started to go out, the computers went a bit haywire and extended or retracted flaps or something then they locked like that. Not quite as plausible as the plane just going dark and then starting to pitch forward and 'glide' straight into the ground. But possible. The one that landed close by could have been in the midst of a turn when the power went out and it spiraled due to that. Later in the episode we saw some planes had come in to land intact. (( The almost rape scene when they went in the plane)). The thing is, we don't yet know why the power went out like it did. It wasn't a normal act of physics. Even batteries stopped working. It's not like the juice just stopped flowing. A fundamental law of physics was altered/changed. So there's no way to possibly anticipate how planes and other things might be effected by such a change. (( Again I point out this .... was very very much inspired by the SM Sterling series, where the exact same thing happened and one of hte protagonists was actually IN a small plane when it happened and had to try and land with no power.))

Lastly, how does everyone have swords? This is all of 15 years later. A sword is not the easiest thing in the world to make. Muskets too? Again, why?

Blades are alot easier to make and maintain than guns. Many houses will have machettes in the garage or something and most of the 'swords' you've seen are those.
As to why, because making gun powder with out power is pretty hard.

They show a couple of modern guns. In the US there are so many friggen modern guns you wouldn't need to resort to muskets only 15 years later.

There's guns, but there's a finite amount of gun powder. Remember it doesn't just fall out of the sky. You can make it with out power and machinery but it takes a while, isn't easy and if you mess it up, it can be very bad. Also, those WITH the knowledge to make gun powder are a very very select subset. The majority of them likely died in the starvation and civil unrest that followed the power drop. The "Guns" you see are in the hands of the Militia's. I.E. left over military.

Making reloads for modern guns is inifinitely easier than forging a sword or making a musket from scratch.

No, it's not. Using modern equipment and materials, reloads aren't that hard, but it's not like you can run to the store for gun powder. Nor even make the casings. Yes you can reload old ones but those only last so long. 15 years is a long time. ALOT if not 90% + of the bullets would have been spent in the first couple of months if not first few years after the power went out. Those with the skill to reload bullets are what? one in 1000 shooters? Out side of "preppers" or "Gun nuts" How many people with guns have more than a few 100 bullets in their house? Not many. I'm a gun guy and I don't have more than a few 100 rounds.

With people killing each other for a can of spam, how long do you think a few 100 rounds to last? Some gang wants to rape your wife or your daughter... or rob you for your food and gas and gun... ect. MOST of the bullets would be used in very short order. Then, guns are just chuncks of metal. Swords don't need reloads.

As for the musket, you didn't 'see them everywhere' you saw ONE in the settlement, and then... the militia. The military remnants. They probalby didn't make them but reclaimed them from museums and such.

That is ignoring the billions of rounds of ammo around the US for all of the hundre million plus modern fire arms laying around as well.

It's not ignoring them. It's been 15 years. Most of them will 1) Be used in the first months to years of the blackout, or 2) Found and confiscated by the Milita's and gangs, then stockpiled to help maintain their military might. or 3) Hidden away by survivors for emergancy use.

Bows and swords are easier. Now.. if you mean "Forge a sword from a hunk of steel" yeah that's hard. If you mean "Take a bit of steel that's laying around all over the planet and put an edge on it" that's different. Most will be fashioned machette types, others can use leaf springs off the cars that are just sitting around to fashion stronger weapons.

So yeah, the "Militia's" or "Government forces" Might still have bullets, but it'd be, because they took them and held them. If you watched the entire show there were only a few with full bullet rounds. The agent, and you saw some rifles at the Milita camp. It was part of why the agent guy was so devistating. When the town rioted he killed like 5 people in 5 shots and put a stop to it.

You're just thinking "It's easy to reload bullets' you're forgetting how hard it is to manufacture bullets with out power and national to international trade, and with huge huge swaths of the planet dead from starvation.

[Icefalcon]

I agree with Pepsi here. Most of the current ammunition would have been used up in the first few months to few years. It is also difficult to reproduce casings without power and manufacturing. Most casings wear out after being fired multiple times. Not to mention the fact that even if you could reproduce the powder, the casing and the bullet itself, you still can't make new primers.

[Tiree]

Come on, a USB necklace that can allow electricity to work? Really.

My best guess is that there is a global EM field stopping electronics. The pendant creates a counter acting agent to thwart this. If you noticed at the end, she powered the pendant, and it powered the light and computer

[azazel1024]

So it directly powered through wireless mystical means? There would have to be a battery pack and/or generator somewhere. I didn't see her fire up a generator. You'd also have to power all of the telecom equipment between her and who she is talking with. So the thing works both in close proximity and along the wire (and anything connected to the wire)???

For the planes, it showed the planes in a flat spin. That is VERY hard to induce accidently or on purpose. It generally requires a major air flow disruption across the control surfaces (such as flying through the wake of another airplane). Simply having the controls go a little haywire as power was lost probably wouldn't do it.

The plane they entered certainly looked like it was parked at an old airport to me.

If all of the ammo was used early on, unless people were shooting it off for the fun of it, most people in the world would be dead (I'd take a wild guess that there are at least a few tens of billions of rounds of ammo if not in to the low hundreds of billions of rounds across the entire planet). I'd agree, the average person 15 years on would not have modern ammo or modern guns or even BP reloads for a modern gun. However, most/all militias should have easy access to modern guns and enough stockpiled ammo to keep the flock in line.

I mentioned new primers. You could make them if you could make BP. Or at least the sophistication necessary to make BP, well at least, is about at the level of making things like mercury fuliminate or lead azide if you have an understanding of it. That doesn't mean every charlie and janice could do it, but there would be plenty who could (or at least plenty enough that any militia of any real size could probably get their hands on someone who could make it and/or get their own gunsmith trained in how to do it by someone else).

I am sure the average person is mostly going to have access to sword and bows at best. However, anyone even modestly close to "the power structure" of the area shouldn't have that hard a time getting their hands on a modern gun and reloads for it, whether using modern primers and powder or MF/LA primers and black powder.

I think pretty early on people are going to be in the habit that they collect any spent casings. Drawn brass casing are resonably durable, but that doesn't mean you can't make steel casings or even cast brass casings (which would NOT be durable) if you need to. Or for that matter, rim fire casing aren't that difficult to make and a .22LR can kill you plenty dead. The ability to do that is around the same level is forging a sword or making a cast iron pot. You couldn't churn out a lot and reusability would be low. However, especially if we are talking with militias, especially if they are spending most of their effort keeping their "people" underfoot and less going to actual war, how many rounds do they really need? Just enough so that any "citizen" knows even a big group rushing a couple of militiamen is probably going to get killed.

I guess my biggest point isn't that you'd never see militia using swords, its more that the effort to make a musket is pretty silly when modern weapons shouldn't be super rare (for militia) and the ability to make workable reloads (again, even if black powder, unjacketed rounds and something like mercury fulminate primers with cast brass casings) isn't really much harder than it is the ability to make passable black powder and make a musket to begin with. That is assuming you haven't conserved plenty of modern ammunition from some national guard ammo dump or some walmart that your militia "liberated" very early on, and have been using is extremely sparingly over the years.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Honestly if people think chi-town is going to be a easy target and Prosek are going to be easy targets , don't take in account , CS psi stalkers, dog boys, CS psi-corps and the vanguard will still be around as well as sdc weapons as well as some mdc firearms and mdc body armor.

[Icefalcon]

Here's the thing. With all of the planes crashing because of no power, how much ammo is really going to survive after all those military bases burn? No power to the pumps to get water pressure to put the fires out. Large swaths of major cities and military bases are going to burn. Not as much as you think is going to survive that long. It will also be a major undertaking to go fifty miles to get that ammo. And that is assuming you are even that close to a military base.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So it directly powered through wireless mystical means? There would have to be a battery pack and/or generator somewhere. I didn't see her fire up a generator. You'd also have to power all of the telecom equipment between her and who she is talking with. So the thing works both in close proximity and along the wire (and anything connected to the wire)???

In short, it's a 'qusi-magical' thingie. We don't know 'how' it works. just that it does. There could be enclaves that have power that we just don't know about. There's been one episode. lol. But yeah we don't know what changed physics to make the power go away, so we don't know what makes the pendants work. (( As there's more than one))

For the planes, it showed the planes in a flat spin. That is VERY hard to induce accidently or on purpose. It generally requires a major air flow disruption across the control surfaces (such as flying through the wake of another airplane). Simply having the controls go a little haywire as power was lost probably wouldn't do it.

Again, the laws of physics have been changed, we don't know how much. It could be (( and probably is)) Just alot more visually dramatic to show them falling like that, than in a nose dive which would happen after lift was removed. I.E. They "TV'd It up" to make it look cool.

The plane they entered certainly looked like it was parked at an old airport to me.

I'm unsure, I'd have to watch it again. I thought it'd landed.

If all of the ammo was used early on, unless people were shooting it off for the fun of it, most people in the world would be dead (I'd take a wild guess that there are at least a few tens of billions of rounds of ammo if not in to the low hundreds of billions of rounds across the entire planet).

Most people are dead. They tell you that in the beginning. Most people starved. Those that lived fled the cities, but yeah. Most people starved and then the 'militia's got an up swing. You're seeing pockets of civilization because.. well watching a TV show with no people gets boring pretty quick.

I'd agree, the average person 15 years on would not have modern ammo or modern guns or even BP reloads for a modern gun. However, most/all militias should have easy access to modern guns and enough stockpiled ammo to keep the flock in line.

And we've seen ONE militia, and they had guns and were so feared by the common folk that they pay tithes of food to keep the militia's going. They didn't seem happy about it but they did it.

I mentioned new primers. You could make them if you could make BP. Or at least the sophistication necessary to make BP, well at least, is about at the level of making things like mercury fuliminate or lead azide if you have an understanding of it. That doesn't mean every charlie and janice could do it, but there would be plenty who could (or at least plenty enough that any militia of any real size could probably get their hands on someone who could make it and/or get their own gunsmith trained in how to do it by someone else).

You're not doing the math on it though. MOST people starved and died. Small portions of the population fled the cities and lived. Extreamly extreamly small portions of the populace can make such things. 1 in 100,000? More? Now you take that extreamly small number, then look at the other numbers were most died. And you gotta figure most of the people with that very select skill set died too.

Some one with actuall weapons manufacturing knowledge would be gold. They're less than doctors or Vets, or mechanics. Every town has a few doctors, a few vets, a number of mechanics. How many towns have actual honest to god gunsmiths? Now realize that most people (( not just gunsmiths)) Starved and died, and that number is reduced even more.

I am sure the average person is mostly going to have access to sword and bows at best. However, anyone even modestly close to "the power structure" of the area shouldn't have that hard a time getting their hands on a modern gun and reloads for it, whether using modern primers and powder or MF/LA primers and black powder.

The technology used just to make the shells and cases for bullets and such is pretty advanced. That thin metal, produced in such a way as to let the bullet fire but not blow up itself and jam the gun. It's not easy. Once you work through your 'reserves' those are going to go down pdq.

Will there be some? yeah the military has stockpiles but you gotta think alot of that was used trying to keep people in check in the beginning. it's a decade and a half later. That's a lot of bullets later.

I think pretty early on people are going to be in the habit that they collect any spent casings.

I don't. With maybe 1 in 1000 people BEFORE The black out able to reload, dropping because probably 900 out of 1000 people died. You'd be looking at a very very very small percentage of people with even the knowledge to reload. Much less the equipment and means. i.e. the material. What's the use of empty shells if you have nothing to put into them or any clue how to?

Drawn brass casing are resonably durable, but that doesn't mean you can't make steel casings or even cast brass casings (which would NOT be durable) if you need to.

How you gonna make um? Flatten steel by hand? Into that thin but durable? Remember even batteries don't work. You'd have to do it by hand, like a black smith.

Or for that matter, rim fire casing aren't that difficult to make and a .22LR can kill you plenty dead. The ability to do that is around the same level is forging a sword or making a cast iron pot. You couldn't churn out a lot and reusability would be low. However, especially if we are talking with militias, especially if they are spending most of their effort keeping their "people" underfoot and less going to actual war, how many rounds do they really need? Just enough so that any "citizen" knows even a big group rushing a couple of militiamen is probably going to get killed.

Again I think the tech level is a bit higher than you're making out, but again, we've seen one episode. That might be exactly what the militia's are doing. We don't know.

I guess my biggest point isn't that you'd never see militia using swords, its more that the effort to make a musket is pretty silly when modern weapons shouldn't be super rare (for militia) and the ability to make workable reloads (again, even if black powder, unjacketed rounds and something like mercury fulminate primers with cast brass casings) isn't really much harder than it is the ability to make passable black powder and make a musket to begin with.

Thing is.. it is. You're missing alot of steps between 'A" and 'Bullet" that take ALOT of very exacting machining and measurements and quality assurance, and manufacturing know how and ability that would be lost with no power. Giant factories just sitting there rusting because nothing is to juice them. We're not taking about making a tin cup by hand but a bullet that has to be done exactly right or it can blow up the gun and damage or even kill you.

And again, they probably didn't make the muskets. They probably reclaimed them. Museums, old armories, private collections. etc.

That is assuming you haven't conserved plenty of modern ammunition from some national guard ammo dump or some walmart that your militia "liberated" very early on, and have been using is extremely sparingly over the years.

I'm betting that's exactly what they're assuming. There was the scene with Uncle what ever and Monroe going back to a military base. Again, we don't know. 1 episode. lol.

Even then, bullets go QUICK. A couple of weekends ago i wnt out and put 400 .40 rounds through my XDM and about 600, 22. through an AR15. That's 1,000 rounds in about.... 2.. maybe three hours at the range. Most of that time was reloading. lol. Bullets go fast. 15 years of bullets, even "MAKE EVERY SHOT COUNT!!' is still going to go down. Even if just used to hunt for meat, it's going to drop like a stone.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Honestly if people think chi-town is going to be a easy target and Prosek are going to be easy targets , don't take in account , CS psi stalkers, dog boys, CS psi-corps and the vanguard will still be around as well as sdc weapons as well as some mdc firearms and mdc body armor.

Not to mention SDC weapons don't do anything to MD armor and MD armor doesn't need power to function. (( Needs power for the inturnal computers and cooling systems but you can have NON Eba armor and still laugh off SDC attacks))

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

I haven't watched Revolution yet, but I will make the assumption now that the weird worldwide electrical shutoff will eventually be explained as some sort of quantum physics-based experiment gone horribly awry. The necklaces will work under a bastardized made for television version of quantum entanglement.

We'll see how it goes. Hopefully that portion of the plot is not dragged out over multiple seasons ala Lost.

EDIT: Actually, I probably won't see how it goes. The incredible level of hype and advertisement attached to this show has left a bad taste in my mouth and reading some of the comments in this thread haven't done much to change my opinion.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Second episode is tonight but I'll be at the MoP launch event.

[taalismn]

Mind you I only said North America, all other parts of the world are unaffected (for what ever reason).

In the show it was the entire planet. There was a pretty nice shot from space where it showed the lights going out in NA and SA and parts of Europe could be seen going black too.

If you mean just for this thread, that's different.

I'd also say if you really liked "Revolution" you should check out SM Sterling's series, (( That this show was clearly, I won't say stolen, but HIGHLY Influenced. ))

There was a previous book, the name of the author of whom escapes me presently, titled 'Ariel', which may have had a sequel, and had the same idea...technology fails, society crashes...only in that setting, a form of magic was emerging and at least two mythic creatures appear(the title character is a Unicorn who happens to appear on the streets with little idea of how she got there).

[Nightmask]

I haven't watched Revolution yet, but I will make the assumption now that the weird worldwide electrical shutoff will eventually be explained as some sort of quantum physics-based experiment gone horribly awry. The necklaces will work under a bastardized made for television version of quantum entanglement.

We'll see how it goes. Hopefully that portion of the plot is not dragged out over multiple seasons ala Lost.

EDIT: Actually, I probably won't see how it goes. The incredible level of hype and advertisement attached to this show has left a bad taste in my mouth and reading some of the comments in this thread haven't done much to change my opinion.

So they're going to blame the Large Hadron Collider?

[Blue_Lion]

Honestly if people think chi-town is going to be a easy target and Prosek are going to be easy targets , don't take in account , CS psi stalkers, dog boys, CS psi-corps and the vanguard will still be around as well as sdc weapons as well as some mdc firearms and mdc body armor.

MDC armor yes, sdc weapons yes, psi corps- yes.
MDC fire arms no.
air circualtion no (well there goes the city) Most the combat and civilan forces whould get traped in the city and die to lack of clean air. Once the word gets out that the cs has no high tech gear then every mdc D-bee with a grudge in the burbs is going to attack the cs forces lucky enofe to get out. By the time the vangard can get in position and take action most of the CS will already be gone. The farms will survive but without vehciles to harvest and distrubte the crops people will face starvation. The CS provides most the food to north america so when that happens even cities like lazlo will have no food for there people to eat. Simply put no kingdom whould survive it tech dependent kingdoms like the CS just die faster. (senero says not even black powder guns work.)

[Nether]

Yeah they have wings, but they also have huge jet engines providing thrust. With out those jet engines pushing the plane forward and thus air around the wings, they don't glide very far, if at all. yes there are glide ratios for those big planes but they're NOT what you might think they are. As for the spinning, that's easily explained as when the electricity started to go out, the computers went a bit haywire and extended or retracted flaps or something then they locked like that. Not quite as plausible as the plane just going dark and then starting to pitch forward and 'glide' straight into the ground. But possible. The one that landed close by could have been in the midst of a turn when the power went out and it spiraled due to that. Later in the episode we saw some planes had come in to land intact. (( The almost rape scene when they went in the plane)). The thing is, we don't yet know why the power went out like it did. It wasn't a normal act of physics. Even batteries stopped working. It's not like the juice just stopped flowing. A fundamental law of physics was altered/changed. So there's no way to possibly anticipate how planes and other things might be effected by such a change. (( Again I point out this .... was very very much inspired by the SM Sterling series, where the exact same thing happened and one of hte protagonists was actually IN a small plane when it happened and had to try and land with no power.))

Definately not true.

All modern commercial jets like boeing and airbus are also gliders in a sense. Even without fuel or power the pilot can still "glide" the plane in and i believe an airbus 380 (one of the bigger planes) had this exact issue. The thing glided for a very long time considering to a military base on a small island.

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

[taalismn]

[

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

No power to landing gear; you're majorly ####ed. And while those engines might not be working, I bet the fuel still has its umphf and will burn nicely with a spark. Barbeque upon landing.

[Slight001]

[

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

No power to landing gear; you're majorly ####ed. And while those engines might not be working, I bet the fuel still has its umphf and will burn nicely with a spark. Barbeque upon landing.

Can you even dump the fuel without power in modern airplanes?

[Nether]

[

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

No power to landing gear; you're majorly ####ed. And while those engines might not be working, I bet the fuel still has its umphf and will burn nicely with a spark. Barbeque upon landing.

Well it doesnt change that the planes wouldnt be falling out of the sky or spinning out of control because of power loss.

As for landings without landing gear, I would have to disagree with you. It is safer to crash land most planes with landing gear up then it is to have the gear down. Landing gear causes more problems in such situations than if it was down which would cause the plane to roll, tumble and collapse.

[Nether]

[

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

No power to landing gear; you're majorly ####ed. And while those engines might not be working, I bet the fuel still has its umphf and will burn nicely with a spark. Barbeque upon landing.

Can you even dump the fuel without power in modern airplanes?

Again, most commercial airliners have manual valves for such things today. Especially since the FAA takes these kinds of things very seriously and try to have all fail safes, as losing power is still a plausible occurrence.

[dragonfett]

As for planes spinning out of control, I don't think they showed that for scientific accuracy but rather to show that the jet was in serious trouble. What's easier for audiences to immediate identify a aircraft in trouble: one gliding down to the ground and then crashing in a big ball of fire, or one that is spinning out of control and then crashes in a big ball of fire?

Back to the OP, I appreciate all the thoughts as some of them are things I probably would not have initially thought about. The more I think about it, the more I just might put it in a campaign.

[azazel1024]

[

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

No power to landing gear; you're majorly ####ed. And while those engines might not be working, I bet the fuel still has its umphf and will burn nicely with a spark. Barbeque upon landing.

Can you even dump the fuel without power in modern airplanes?

It would probably depend on the plane. I think all planes have both manual controls for fuel dump and for landing gears. However, with all power lost, it might not be possible for an air crew member to reach a manual dump valve or crank a landing gear down (that may not be possible anymore on modern jets) before the plane would belly in.

Unless landing on a paved road or runway, a lack of landing gear isn't a big issue. Comercial jets are not designed for rough strips, so the landing gears would likely snap off quickly, which might cause additional issues over a belly landing (causing the plane to pivot/spin as only one collapses, etc).

The glide path of all comercial jets is not what I would consider marvelous, but it is very doable to land one safely with no engine power. During normal take off and approach if power was lost however, you'd likely be pwned.

For crashing planes...how many planes are landing at army bases??? I am going to guess none. Even at air force bases, a crashed plane doesn't mean fire necessarily and even if it does, it doesn't mean it'll spread to the whole base (and armories tend to be both hardened and buried, so even a large forest/prarie fire isn't likely too cook them off).

My last/biggest gripe...why so clean? I mean come on, no modern showers and if the bullets are gone, you gotta bet TP and shampoo has been gone for YEARS. Best you are probably going to have is basic soap and yeah old bucket filling bathtub bath (or stream). I highly doubt you'd even shower/bathe daily.

Lastly, just about no "modern" clothing should be left. Yeah, some people were wearing what looked like it was supposed to be home spin clothing (way too high quality for that though, it all looked like it was made on modern looms). Too many were wearing modern shirts/pants/jackets. Even salvaging from people who didn't need it anymore (IE were dead), there probably wouldn't be a lot of people left 15 years on who'd have nice modern clothing in good condition. Maybe some jackets, or the occasional pair of jeans or something.

Honestly the over abundance of modern clothing (and footwear!!!) was more of a problem than the almost total lack of modern firearms.

Also, huh??? kind of cross bow was she using? It doesn't look like any design I have ever seen (arms already spanned when not cocked??? Huh?).

[Dr. Doom III]

The glide path of all comercial jets is not what I would consider marvelous, but it is very doable to land one safely with no engine power. During normal take off and approach if power was lost however, you'd likely be pwned.

Actually for a modern "fly by wire" plane it is imposable to fly without any power at all.
If a modern jet loses power they can deploy a propeller to spin in the wind and run a generator. That will give them power for basic systems. In the scenario of the show all electricity stops working from any and every source and they are now flying in an uncontrollable rock.
Spinning in is not unrealistic.


That said I stopped watching the show on the second episode. I can't stand that stupid girl.

[azazel1024]

The glide path of all comercial jets is not what I would consider marvelous, but it is very doable to land one safely with no engine power. During normal take off and approach if power was lost however, you'd likely be pwned.

Actually for a modern "fly by wire" plane it is imposable to fly without any power at all.
If a modern jet loses power they can deploy a propeller to spin in the wind and run a generator. That will give them power for basic systems. In the scenario of the show all electricity stops working from any and every source and they are now flying in an uncontrollable rock.
Spinning in is not unrealistic.


That said I stopped watching the show on the second episode. I can't stand that stupid girl.

Reference my earlier posts, I mentioned that fact. However, even with total loss of control input, a flat spin as depicted in the show is nearly impossible to induce. Crashing and killing everyone aboard = likely result of total loss of electricity (on modern jets. Plenty of smaller planes that are still hydraulically or mechanically controlled, or are merly electrically assisted). However, flat spin, nearly impossible.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah they have wings, but they also have huge jet engines providing thrust. With out those jet engines pushing the plane forward and thus air around the wings, they don't glide very far, if at all. yes there are glide ratios for those big planes but they're NOT what you might think they are. As for the spinning, that's easily explained as when the electricity started to go out, the computers went a bit haywire and extended or retracted flaps or something then they locked like that. Not quite as plausible as the plane just going dark and then starting to pitch forward and 'glide' straight into the ground. But possible. The one that landed close by could have been in the midst of a turn when the power went out and it spiraled due to that. Later in the episode we saw some planes had come in to land intact. (( The almost rape scene when they went in the plane)). The thing is, we don't yet know why the power went out like it did. It wasn't a normal act of physics. Even batteries stopped working. It's not like the juice just stopped flowing. A fundamental law of physics was altered/changed. So there's no way to possibly anticipate how planes and other things might be effected by such a change. (( Again I point out this .... was very very much inspired by the SM Sterling series, where the exact same thing happened and one of hte protagonists was actually IN a small plane when it happened and had to try and land with no power.))

Definately not true.

All modern commercial jets like boeing and airbus are also gliders in a sense. Even without fuel or power the pilot can still "glide" the plane in and i believe an airbus 380 (one of the bigger planes) had this exact issue. The thing glided for a very long time considering to a military base on a small island.

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

"You belive" "they 'can'" "A very long time"

Can you give something real and concrete to this? Other than "No I don't think you're right" and vagueness? And Autorotation is not what any chopper pilot is going to call 'fairly safe'. it's a very dangerous very bad day.

Yes, with out thrust or lift, planes fall out of the sky, big commercial airliners are not gliders. They're barely flying rocks. lol.

[Tiree]

I've seen the first episode three or 4 times now, and I am in the middle of watching the second for a second time. I think I have come across some insights into the show - why things we think should work, but don't.

Spoiler:

1. Weapons: In the area that the show is showing, is in the "Monroe Protectorate". Where firearms are illegal. They come by kill folks who have them, and stockpile the rest. Give the firearms to the most trustworthy of Monroe's people, and probably use Musket's on the next rung lower. This provides a tiered system, and allows defectors either no weapons or primitive style.
2. Power: As alluded to in the second show, the power issue is a "Man Made" thing, and it is currently ongoing. Why is this important, it means that an EMP Bomb didn't just go off. But something that has stopped all power, from working. Like a strange EM field thingie
3. Lockets: As alluded into the 1st show, and the 2nd - these things are quite powerful. They power on, and what happens - everything around them does too! How this works, I'm still not sure. Whether the lockets are powering the devices, or just allowing the power to actually work. I'm betting on the latter. But it will be interesting to see one of the lockets around a Helicopter or Vehicle, and have it start up.

Now suspension of belief will need to be done. Like how quickly the Monroe Protectorate was able to remove weapons from the masses of an area like Illinois. But there was 15 years to do all of this in too.

The fact that these locket folks haven't popped up a lot sooner than 15 years... Maybe they have, and well that's what Randall's purpose is all about... (whoever Randall is).

But so far, I'm giving this show an 8 out of 10. Some flaws, but it is keeping me interested. Definitely has that Fringe and Alias feel I like from JJ Abrahms.

[MikelAmroni]

Yeah, I like the show personally. And there is nothing natural about how the no-electricity thing works. It may as well be magic, because that is how they are suggesting it.

The fact they are so clean is pretty much the only real complaint I have about the show, and even that I am just accepting that the actors and actresses just didn't want to be super dirty. That and proper "dirty" makeup is bloody expensive and has to be reapplied just right.

[EmeraldToucanet]

[

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

No power to landing gear; you're majorly ####ed. And while those engines might not be working, I bet the fuel still has its umphf and will burn nicely with a spark. Barbeque upon landing.

Can you even dump the fuel without power in modern airplanes?

It would probably depend on the plane. I think all planes have both manual controls for fuel dump and for landing gears. However, with all power lost, it might not be possible for an air crew member to reach a manual dump valve or crank a landing gear down (that may not be possible anymore on modern jets) before the plane would belly in.

Unless landing on a paved road or runway, a lack of landing gear isn't a big issue. Comercial jets are not designed for rough strips, so the landing gears would likely snap off quickly, which might cause additional issues over a belly landing (causing the plane to pivot/spin as only one collapses, etc).

The glide path of all comercial jets is not what I would consider marvelous, but it is very doable to land one safely with no engine power. During normal take off and approach if power was lost however, you'd likely be pwned.

For crashing planes...how many planes are landing at army bases??? I am going to guess none. Even at air force bases, a crashed plane doesn't mean fire necessarily and even if it does, it doesn't mean it'll spread to the whole base (and armories tend to be both hardened and buried, so even a large forest/prarie fire isn't likely too cook them off).

My last/biggest gripe...why so clean? I mean come on, no modern showers and if the bullets are gone, you gotta bet TP and shampoo has been gone for YEARS. Best you are probably going to have is basic soap and yeah old bucket filling bathtub bath (or stream). I highly doubt you'd even shower/bathe daily.

Lastly, just about no "modern" clothing should be left. Yeah, some people were wearing what looked like it was supposed to be home spin clothing (way too high quality for that though, it all looked like it was made on modern looms). Too many were wearing modern shirts/pants/jackets. Even salvaging from people who didn't need it anymore (IE were dead), there probably wouldn't be a lot of people left 15 years on who'd have nice modern clothing in good condition. Maybe some jackets, or the occasional pair of jeans or something.

Honestly the over abundance of modern clothing (and footwear!!!) was more of a problem than the almost total lack of modern firearms.

Also, huh??? kind of cross bow was she using? It doesn't look like any design I have ever seen (arms already spanned when not cocked??? Huh?).

Probably does depend on the plane, but I know a pilot, and I could swear he mentioned part of his training being the ability to fly some number of miles without any power and then safely land still without power. But maybe this isn't possible with a big commercial one... (I've seen people say yes and people say no, so I'll have to look it up).
As for clothes, it depends, I have some clothes in very good condition even after frequent wear that are around that age. But most clothing doesn't last nearly that long (especially inexpensive mass produced clothing) so it is safe to say most of it would be pretty severely worn out by this point though (with a good deal of it being worn out within the first few years or so). That ACDC shirt would probably be a pile of shredded rags unless he happened to find a cache of unworn ones somehow more recently. I consider this a pretty minor oversight though and doesn't really bother me.

Anyhow the explanation for why the power isn't working, and the nature of the lockets could be really well done, I'll just have to wait and see (I'm just hoping this doesn't end up like a certain other show J.J, Abrams was involved with where it ends up being left rather vague with lots of loose ends remaining) . Beyond that it might be man made there's not too many hints as far as what's really going on so far. I think jumping to conclusions that it's something silly like a USB locket is rather premature (not saying it couldn't be, but as an explanation, it really would make no sense at all).

[azazel1024]

Here you go, glide ratios http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/1621604/

As the thread indicates, commercial airliners have significantly better glide ratios than most prop planes, especially single engine prop planes.

They are VERY MUCH designed to land safely with all engines completely disabled. They do not fall out of the air.

Granted, the controls still have to work, but they are not rocks.

[Icefalcon]

Yeah, I like the show personally. And there is nothing natural about how the no-electricity thing works. It may as well be magic, because that is how they are suggesting it.

The fact they are so clean is pretty much the only real complaint I have about the show, and even that I am just accepting that the actors and actresses just didn't want to be super dirty. That and proper "dirty" makeup is bloody expensive and has to be reapplied just right.

I agree with this. That has been the only complaint I have about the show so far.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, I like the show personally. And there is nothing natural about how the no-electricity thing works. It may as well be magic, because that is how they are suggesting it.

The fact they are so clean is pretty much the only real complaint I have about the show, and even that I am just accepting that the actors and actresses just didn't want to be super dirty. That and proper "dirty" makeup is bloody expensive and has to be reapplied just right.

I agree with this. That has been the only complaint I have about the show so far.

You guys realize you can bathe with out power right? You just go to a body of water and do it. Might be chilly but it can be done. Or you can have gravity showers. You can even heat water over a fire.

Soap can also be made with out power. Rendering fat for soap has been done for a long long time.

[Icefalcon]

Yeah, I like the show personally. And there is nothing natural about how the no-electricity thing works. It may as well be magic, because that is how they are suggesting it.

The fact they are so clean is pretty much the only real complaint I have about the show, and even that I am just accepting that the actors and actresses just didn't want to be super dirty. That and proper "dirty" makeup is bloody expensive and has to be reapplied just right.

I agree with this. That has been the only complaint I have about the show so far.

You guys realize you can bathe with out power right? You just go to a body of water and do it. Might be chilly but it can be done. Or you can have gravity showers. You can even heat water over a fire.

Soap can also be made with out power. Rendering fat for soap has been done for a long long time.

Of course you can. But they are still wearing manufactured clothing. That would not last more than five or ten years with the type of laundry techniques they would have to use. Not to mention all of the women have perfect makeup and hair, even after a night of sleeping on the ground. I realize that that is part of the Hollywood thing, but they could be a little dirtier than they appear.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, I like the show personally. And there is nothing natural about how the no-electricity thing works. It may as well be magic, because that is how they are suggesting it.

The fact they are so clean is pretty much the only real complaint I have about the show, and even that I am just accepting that the actors and actresses just didn't want to be super dirty. That and proper "dirty" makeup is bloody expensive and has to be reapplied just right.

I agree with this. That has been the only complaint I have about the show so far.

You guys realize you can bathe with out power right? You just go to a body of water and do it. Might be chilly but it can be done. Or you can have gravity showers. You can even heat water over a fire.

Soap can also be made with out power. Rendering fat for soap has been done for a long long time.

Of course you can. But they are still wearing manufactured clothing. That would not last more than five or ten years with the type of laundry techniques they would have to use. Not to mention all of the women have perfect makeup and hair, even after a night of sleeping on the ground. I realize that that is part of the Hollywood thing, but they could be a little dirtier than they appear.

I'm not sure what show you're watching, but i'm not seeing make up or elaborate hair. In fact, I even commented to my wife that the girl they DO have, isn't pretty enough to helm a big show. I know it's sad but it's the truth, she doesn't have the body and her face is just average.

As for the clothes. *shrugs* I've got jeans and teeshirts from 15 years ago. It takes a good 5 to 10 years to break in jeans right. It's not hard to brush your hair.

[Nether]

Yeah they have wings, but they also have huge jet engines providing thrust. With out those jet engines pushing the plane forward and thus air around the wings, they don't glide very far, if at all. yes there are glide ratios for those big planes but they're NOT what you might think they are. As for the spinning, that's easily explained as when the electricity started to go out, the computers went a bit haywire and extended or retracted flaps or something then they locked like that. Not quite as plausible as the plane just going dark and then starting to pitch forward and 'glide' straight into the ground. But possible. The one that landed close by could have been in the midst of a turn when the power went out and it spiraled due to that. Later in the episode we saw some planes had come in to land intact. (( The almost rape scene when they went in the plane)). The thing is, we don't yet know why the power went out like it did. It wasn't a normal act of physics. Even batteries stopped working. It's not like the juice just stopped flowing. A fundamental law of physics was altered/changed. So there's no way to possibly anticipate how planes and other things might be effected by such a change. (( Again I point out this .... was very very much inspired by the SM Sterling series, where the exact same thing happened and one of hte protagonists was actually IN a small plane when it happened and had to try and land with no power.))

Definately not true.

All modern commercial jets like boeing and airbus are also gliders in a sense. Even without fuel or power the pilot can still "glide" the plane in and i believe an airbus 380 (one of the bigger planes) had this exact issue. The thing glided for a very long time considering to a military base on a small island.

So if this happened, planes wouldnt just be falling out of the sky, they are still relatively safe until the landing, which might cause problems. Even helicopters are 'fairly' safe if they only lose power/fuel as the propellers will spin reverse as it falls, allowing for enough cushion on crash dropping that the passengers should be alive, and usually ok.

"You belive" "they 'can'" "A very long time"

Can you give something real and concrete to this? Other than "No I don't think you're right" and vagueness? And Autorotation is not what any chopper pilot is going to call 'fairly safe'. it's a very dangerous very bad day.

Yes, with out thrust or lift, planes fall out of the sky, big commercial airliners are not gliders. They're barely flying rocks. lol.

NO, it's not! I already gave you the basic info that you could have easily googled to confirm what i said was true. This isnt a rpg book where the only way to look up info is to flip thru the book for citation, and we aren't lawyers defending 'only' one side of the arguement.

Your comment shows your knowledge in this area is devoid, which is fine but your statements are blatantly wrong.

Also i was not claiming all planes, primarily modern commercial jets which are not front heavy prop jobs.
So here ya go, I even took like 30 sec to find this for ya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

On the otherhand, what you are saying is YOUR Opinion which I'm not sure what you based that on, but regardless it's wrong.

[dragonfett]

Guys, can we get back to the op and not the show itself?

[azazel1024]

Yeah, I like the show personally. And there is nothing natural about how the no-electricity thing works. It may as well be magic, because that is how they are suggesting it.

The fact they are so clean is pretty much the only real complaint I have about the show, and even that I am just accepting that the actors and actresses just didn't want to be super dirty. That and proper "dirty" makeup is bloody expensive and has to be reapplied just right.

I agree with this. That has been the only complaint I have about the show so far.

You guys realize you can bathe with out power right? You just go to a body of water and do it. Might be chilly but it can be done. Or you can have gravity showers. You can even heat water over a fire.

Soap can also be made with out power. Rendering fat for soap has been done for a long long time.

Of course you can. But they are still wearing manufactured clothing. That would not last more than five or ten years with the type of laundry techniques they would have to use. Not to mention all of the women have perfect makeup and hair, even after a night of sleeping on the ground. I realize that that is part of the Hollywood thing, but they could be a little dirtier than they appear.

I'm not sure what show you're watching, but i'm not seeing make up or elaborate hair. In fact, I even commented to my wife that the girl they DO have, isn't pretty enough to helm a big show. I know it's sad but it's the truth, she doesn't have the body and her face is just average.

As for the clothes. *shrugs* I've got jeans and teeshirts from 15 years ago. It takes a good 5 to 10 years to break in jeans right. It's not hard to brush your hair.

He just pointed out the laundry techniques which you'd be forced to use. Unless you are going to rig up an elaborate system to run a modern washer off paddle wheel or bicycle power, you are going to be using a tub or stream and a wash board.

That will destroy even something like thick denim in just a few years of cleaning.

Something like a modern jacket which you probably won't be washing much might well last a few decades, even wearing it a lot. Clothes you'd need to or would be washing frequently would wear out in just a very few short years (if not months for some modern cotton shirts and stuff).

Go back a century. How often did people bathe around 1900? A lot less than they do today with the convenience of nearly instant hot water, etc. That was even with running water in their house a lot of times, or within easy reach at a pump in their backyard and a few bucket trips.

Not everyone lives near a lake or stream to bathe in.

When you don't have running water in your house and convenient gas/oil/electric water heating, you bathe significantly less.

So, yes, the people should be a lot dirtier and most/all should be wearing hand (or at best waterwheel) loomed clothing of a much thicker design.

A lot of modern looking or modern liquor bottles in that one Chicago bar scene as well. I see you don't have any issues with nearly not modern guns, but lots of modern clothes and (I am going to guess here) lots of modern glass bottles isn't an issue?

How much are people going to be conserving modern bottles to be reused? I am going to guess very little the first few years.

Also back to the shoes. Shoes do NOT last that long with daily wearing. Even really great boots aren't going to last more than a few years with daily wear and manual labor. So the stock of modern footwear should basically be gone at this point (even with good cobblers, who are probably rarer today than someone who knows how to reload ammo or make BP/primers, repairing and resouling shoes).

[azazel1024]

Oh final comment, for now. They are showing a lot of parrafin wax candles in the various scenes. Parrafin wax is more difficult to make than BP or primers.

The candles they are showing are deffinitely not tallow or beeswax candles.

Granted, for production of the show, a few hundred tallow or beeswax candles would be a might harder and more expensive to come by, but the prodigous use that they show in the show is both way beyond what a non-industrial economy would allow and also parrafin wax candles would generally not be within their technology.

Candles weren't something you just lit dozens and dozens of in a room, tallow or bees wax. You lit a couple of candles and carried them around when you needed to see things at night (or used windows during the day). If you had a fair amount of money you might use several to light a room, possibly with a few torches (also not cheap as a torch that is going to last awhile has been soaked in pitch for a long time), maybe a fire in a fire place to supplement a little (which aren't great at lighting rooms) or if you are resonably well to do one or more oil lamps or braziers. Oil lamps aren't necessarily that expensive as you can use vegetable oils in them or even tallow lamps (which are a little cheaper to do than tallow candles). Ideally you'd use whale oil or petroleum oil, the later would be exceedingly hard to get.

[Dr. Doom III]

NO, it's not! I already gave you the basic info that you could have easily googled to confirm what i said was true. This isnt a rpg book where the only way to look up info is to flip thru the book for citation, and we aren't lawyers defending 'only' one side of the arguement.

Your comment shows your knowledge in this area is devoid, which is fine but your statements are blatantly wrong.

Also i was not claiming all planes, primarily modern commercial jets which are not front heavy prop jobs.
So here ya go, I even took like 30 sec to find this for ya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

On the otherhand, what you are saying is YOUR Opinion which I'm not sure what you based that on, but regardless it's wrong.

That plane had some power and some functioning controls.
On the show all electricity stopped.