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First, why is magic so limited? In every other game I have ever played or heard of, magic was more or less the most powerful of all types of combat. Even a low level mage could take on a small squad without being touched. I understand that things need to be balanced, but from what I have seen and experienced, magic is WAY of balance, it is weak and very limited. I am speaking most about only being able to cast 2 spells per melee, and the lack of damage that they do, the range is not really an issue, but I do think it is also limited.

Second, Are there any rules about making up your own spells? I have gone through all of the magic from BOM, Fed of magic, and quite a few of the rifters, and I have thought of spells that I have encountered from other games/stories that I would love to use, but they are not in the book.

Third, this question is mostly about dragons and other magic races that have initial spell knowledge. Dragons initially know all spell magic from levels 1-6. The question is, what does this actually entail? Is it all invocation magic or does it also include elemental, shifter and other forms as long as they are not ritual?

The Palladium mage's strength lies not in power, but versatility. The Nightbane suppliment "Through the Glass Darkly" has the rules for making new spells. "All spells levels 1 - 6" would mean all invocation spells from those levels, not any other type of magic.

Glistam wrote:The Palladium mage's strength lies not in power, but versatility. The Nightbane suppliment "Through the Glass Darkly" has the rules for making new spells. "All spells levels 1 - 6" would mean all invocation spells from those levels, not any other type of magic.

That's not really strength, just something to compensate where possible for being weak.

torkair wrote:

BloodAnjiel wrote:First, why is magic so limited? In every other game I have ever played or heard of, magic was more or less the most powerful of all types of combat. Even a low level mage could take on a small squad without being touched. I understand that things need to be balanced, but from what I have seen and experienced, magic is WAY of balance, it is weak and very limited. I am speaking most about only being able to cast 2 spells per melee, and the lack of damage that they do, the range is not really an issue, but I do think it is also limited.

Second, Are there any rules about making up your own spells? I have gone through all of the magic from BOM, Fed of magic, and quite a few of the rifters, and I have thought of spells that I have encountered from other games/stories that I would love to use, but they are not in the book.

Third, this question is mostly about dragons and other magic races that have initial spell knowledge. Dragons initially know all spell magic from levels 1-6. The question is, what does this actually entail? Is it all invocation magic or does it also include elemental, shifter and other forms as long as they are not ritual?

1: This is an old rule and was fixed with the PPE channeling rule in a Rifter supplement (I forget which one). Alternatively, my own group has house ruled that lvls 1-5=1 attack, 6-10=2 attacks, and 11-legendary = 3 attacks unless specifically boted in the spell description.

2: You will want ot find Through The Glass Darkly for spell creation rules.

3: Unless specifically stated otherwise you should stick with invocation spells. The GM may hand out spells from other schools as special rewards later on.

Just remember, the Book Of Magic is your best friend if you are playing a mage (with the exception of Techno-wizard device construction).

PPE Channeling is an optional rule (one that I say rocks, however). The "house rule" that your group has is actual canon rules as of the RUE.

1) This has been answer quite fully, however...

dragonfett wrote:PPE Channeling is an optional rule (one that I say rocks, however). The "house rule" that your group has is actual canon rules as of the RUE.

The above is slightly incorrect

Correction: "... is the actual Rifts canon rule as of the RUE."

Remember the effects of LL and LLN on spells.
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2) The Through the Glass Darkly book is a NightBane book. Which makes it technically non-canon for rifts.
However, individual GM's can import rules from other settings for their game.
-------------
3) When it say All Spells. I use the original definition... as in "all invocations in the Main Book." "Why is this the original deff.?" you might ask. At the start of it, the only spells that were, were in the Main book.

The change in the RUE that spells level 1-5 are single melee actions helped bring magic pretty well up to speed. I do wish the overall ranges of spells were a bit less anemic but that is really my one remaining gripe and there are at least now some spells that have good range.

One of the ironic things about mages is given the changes they actually are better in up close and personal fighting than stand off nuking which is the normal mage role. Given the many damage mitigation/force field like spells that are cheap and easy to reapply magic characters can be amazingly durable in close combat. This grows fast as they level as mages more than almost anything else in rifts scales well with level.

If a mage is on or near a leyline/nexus in the RUE they have next to infinite MDC capabilities as long as their shields are not being dropped in a single attack. Take a level 10 LLW just using armor of ithan which is not even the best or more efficient of the armor type spells at higher levels. That mage can pump out if they are on pure defense 400 or so MDC worth of protection without even dipping into their own PPE reserves so can do that every single round forever as long as they are on a ley line that is pretty powerful.

Well rember one thing a mage can cast any spell he can get the PPE mana not limited to his level. Most other level based games i have played a low level mage 1-4 can not normaly take down a small squad by himself.

Athou it may not have the sustained punch of tech magic does have some powerful spell. Anilation, partical acceleration. The main thing to rember thou is that mages in every PB system have the same innvation spells, from fantasy to HU. So the spells are set to the system as a whole not the damage heavy rifts game.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) This has been answer quite fully, however...

dragonfett wrote:PPE Channeling is an optional rule (one that I say rocks, however). The "house rule" that your group has is actual canon rules as of the RUE.

The above is slightly incorrect

Correction: "... is the actual Rifts canon rule as of the RUE."

Remember the effects of LL and LLN on spells.
-------------
2) The Through the Glass Darkly book is a NightBane book. Which makes it technically non-canon for rifts.
However, individual GM's can import rules from other settings for their game.
-------------
3) When it say All Spells. I use the original definition... as in "all invocations in the Main Book." "Why is this the original deff.?" you might ask. At the start of it, the only spells that were, were in the Main book.

Except the R:UE specifically refers you to the Book of Magic because its invocation list was shortened to save room.

rifts magic users are not weak.

their nukes, in general, suck. there are a few exceptions, but in general, nuking is either extremely expensive, extremely ineffective, or both expensive and ineffective.

their other spells, on the other hand, are often quite beastly.

i've posted this before, i'll likely post it again, but unless you are using a damaging spell which is so damaging that it will remove an enemy from combat, you're probably making an extremely sub-optimal choice. spells that deny the opponent the ability to act at all are generally the best, followed by spells that dramatically reduce their ability to be effective or which dramatically boost your own effectiveness, or which grant your side more actions (this includes most summoning spells). most of the time, nuking comes in dead last. stuff like magic net, carpet of adhesion, impervious to energy, fly as the eagle, blinding flash, and domination will be your strongest choices. stuff like fire bolt or even power bolt are generally a worse choice than simply pulling out a wilk's 447 and shooting people just like everyone else in the group is doing.

obviously, circumstances will vary (if you're getting ready for a fight that hasn't started yet, buff spells go up in value; if you're fighting vampires, magic net or carpet of adhesion won't do much; certain enemies will have vulnerabilities to certain spells; and some of the damage-dealing spells can actually one-shot certain opponents, meaning they are potentially pushed straight to the top of the list).

also, the out of combat utility is a huge factor as well. spells like sub-particle acceleration (recharges e-clips) and mend the broken (repairs armor, vehicles, etc) can be life-savers, and ultimately in many situations will be the only things letting the tech characters function at all.

Galroth wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) This has been answer quite fully, however...

dragonfett wrote:PPE Channeling is an optional rule (one that I say rocks, however). The "house rule" that your group has is actual canon rules as of the RUE.

The above is slightly incorrect

Correction: "... is the actual Rifts canon rule as of the RUE."

Remember the effects of LL and LLN on spells.
-------------
2) The Through the Glass Darkly book is a NightBane book. Which makes it technically non-canon for rifts.
However, individual GM's can import rules from other settings for their game.
-------------
3) When it say All Spells. I use the original definition... as in "all invocations in the Main Book." "Why is this the original deff.?" you might ask. At the start of it, the only spells that were, were in the Main book.

Except the R:UE specifically refers you to the Book of Magic because its invocation list was shortened to save room.

Did I say "RUE"? *shock horror* Why would a RUE hater like me say something like that? Oh Deary Deary me.*over the top over acting*

The Rifts Main Book had ALL the spell Rifts had when Rifts started. Thus those are the spells I am talking about. They also happen to be (for the most part) the ones in RUE. So you new comers can just use that.

Let's come down to it, There are a lot of spells in even just the Main Book (or RUE) for the char to use. And if you limit it to just the 'what was there to start' you have a much more manageable char to deal with as a GM.

I'm not saying they could not "Learn" anymore spells. Just that those are the ones they would know instinctively.

And since this is just the way I would rule it as a GM I did indicate that this is how I would do it.

To me this is just another example of PB being lazy, thus creating an argument.

I'm just saying newer players might not even consider the old Rifts Main Book to be "the main book" considering the R:UE is supposed to take its place. To each GM their own though.

Galroth wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) This has been answer quite fully, however...

dragonfett wrote:PPE Channeling is an optional rule (one that I say rocks, however). The "house rule" that your group has is actual canon rules as of the RUE.

The above is slightly incorrect

Correction: "... is the actual Rifts canon rule as of the RUE."

Remember the effects of LL and LLN on spells.
-------------
2) The Through the Glass Darkly book is a NightBane book. Which makes it technically non-canon for rifts.
However, individual GM's can import rules from other settings for their game.
-------------
3) When it say All Spells. I use the original definition... as in "all invocations in the Main Book." "Why is this the original deff.?" you might ask. At the start of it, the only spells that were, were in the Main book.

Except the R:UE specifically refers you to the Book of Magic because its invocation list was shortened to save room.

I seam to rember one of my rifts books having something that refed to the creation rules in the Nightbane book for rifts. So is it cannon, I thaght by defualt cannon rifts includes every thing from every game as it has rules to convert them all to rifts.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Galroth wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1) This has been answer quite fully, however...

dragonfett wrote:PPE Channeling is an optional rule (one that I say rocks, however). The "house rule" that your group has is actual canon rules as of the RUE.

The above is slightly incorrect

Correction: "... is the actual Rifts canon rule as of the RUE."

Remember the effects of LL and LLN on spells.
-------------
2) The Through the Glass Darkly book is a NightBane book. Which makes it technically non-canon for rifts.
However, individual GM's can import rules from other settings for their game.
-------------
3) When it say All Spells. I use the original definition... as in "all invocations in the Main Book." "Why is this the original deff.?" you might ask. At the start of it, the only spells that were, were in the Main book.

Except the R:UE specifically refers you to the Book of Magic because its invocation list was shortened to save room.

I seam to rember one of my rifts books having something that refed to the creation rules in the Nightbane book for rifts. So is it cannon, I thaght by defualt cannon rifts includes every thing from every game as it has rules to convert them all to rifts.

*Yawn*
Why are you going Off Topic BL?

BloodAnjiel wrote:Dragons initially know all spell magic from levels 1-6.

Did you mean this literally about dragons, or was this just an example.

RUE says something quite different.

Mack wrote:

BloodAnjiel wrote:Dragons initially know all spell magic from levels 1-6.

Did you mean this literally about dragons, or was this just an example.

RUE says something quite different.

I was going by CB1 using adult dragons (yes, my gm is allowing adult dragons under certain stipulations though). Dragons in this case know all spells from levels 1-6 plus, depending on the species, are able to learn more from other levels or from other colleges of magic.