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Some time ago, bionics and cybernetic conversions were all the rage. Man and machine combined into one, allowing superhuman senses or abilities at the cost of limbs or organs. Now the category du jour seems to be anything that grants powers like Mutants, Experiments, Eugenics, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I love my super abilities. But lately I've noticed bionics being pushed further and further into the back seat as far as popularity goes. I'm trying to consider how to tweak this category to make things more interesting, like perhaps Bionics research in a future game have become more affordable, or even alien tech advanced like such parts in Rifts as the new cutting edge. I love the Supersoldier options, and doing more to combine these seems like a perfect melding. What do you think it would take to make Bionics a more interesting category again? Adjust prices, allow for better tech, borrow more from the Robotics sections?

If the players start without powers. Bionics become more viable. Like super soldier programs with skilled soldiers that need an edge over super human enemies.

Better variety of cybernetics and types, less rigid evolutions of technologies. More variability in the capabilities of cyberwear. After all, cyberwear if far, FAR more limited than a handful of powers. Not to mention much lower-powered.
The same can be said for the Robotics category.

I would say having them all "self repair" would make people want them again. I find that more and more players are too concerned with being 100% self reliant in preparation for the upcoming game they're playing. Basically I'm finding that players don't want anything that requires upkeep, or possible cost to repair/replace. Hell, half my players don't even want vehicles or armour anymore, they want powers and that's it.

Razzinold wrote:I would say having them all "self repair" would make people want them again. I find that more and more players are too concerned with being 100% self reliant in preparation for the upcoming game they're playing. Basically I'm finding that players don't want anything that requires upkeep, or possible cost to repair/replace. Hell, half my players don't even want vehicles or armour anymore, they want powers and that's it.

Hard to fault them on that though, many GM love to destroy such things and make it so costly that the player is left highly frustrated. Few people actually enjoy seeing their hard work to acquire something destroyed in minutes by the GM, especially repeatedly. So they try to be as self-contained and sustaining as possible.

Nightmask wrote:

Razzinold wrote:I would say having them all "self repair" would make people want them again. I find that more and more players are too concerned with being 100% self reliant in preparation for the upcoming game they're playing. Basically I'm finding that players don't want anything that requires upkeep, or possible cost to repair/replace. Hell, half my players don't even want vehicles or armour anymore, they want powers and that's it.

Hard to fault them on that though, many GM love to destroy such things and make it so costly that the player is left highly frustrated. Few people actually enjoy seeing their hard work to acquire something destroyed in minutes by the GM, especially repeatedly. So they try to be as self-contained and sustaining as possible.

Oh I'm not faulting them for it, but to me it does seem a little removed from the 'spirit of the game'. They are supposed to be playing their characters, and some of their characters would probably have bionics but now they are trying to think ahead of the game before it even happens. Kind of like when the group gets together and they all shout out "what are you going to be?" and you end up with 1 mage, 1 psychic, 1 tech guy, 1 skill laden guy (like rogue scientist/scholar, analytical genius) and 1 or 2 man at arms. Instead of just playing what they want to play they come together as a group and make sure that they are not weak in any area of the game, trying to out plan the GM. What's even funnier is when in game the characters are not already a preformed group, I mean come on what are the odds that 5 - 7 people come together and nobody is of a similar OCC/Class? I know that it's not considered 'cheating' to do that, but to me when players do that it's more like they are playing a boardgame instead of an RPG.

Part of it could also be changing aesthetics in the "real world" as well. Back in the 1990s, comics were all leather, guns, and cybernetics even if one was a mutant (Cable & Bishop, anyone?).

I agree with Rappanui: we need a "Bionics Unlimited" book for HU.

Bionics does need more options than are currently available, but some players just don't like the idea of a character that has been cut up and put in a can.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Bionics does need more options than are currently available, but some players just don't like the idea of a character that has been cut up and put in a can.

I'm one of those players, while some like that look for their characters I prefer that my characters be intact, no eyepatches or bionic hands or anything else of that sort.

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Bionics does need more options than are currently available, but some players just don't like the idea of a character that has been cut up and put in a can.

I'm one of those players, while some like that look for their characters I prefer that my characters be intact, no eyepatches or bionic hands or anything else of that sort.

I think more people might combine them with other things is the rules did not make them interfere with superpowers...

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Bionics does need more options than are currently available, but some players just don't like the idea of a character that has been cut up and put in a can.

I'm one of those players, while some like that look for their characters I prefer that my characters be intact, no eyepatches or bionic hands or anything else of that sort.

I think more people might combine them with other things is the rules did not make them interfere with superpowers...

Probably so, depending on the super-powers bionics shouldn't negatively impact them at all. Why would winged flight become less effective just because you needed a bionic arm after all?

Could introduce a minor super-power I saw in a webcomic, it was called biocyberkinesis. Basically it was a super-power you only find out you've got when you get bionics as your body is uniquely compatible with bionics to the point you adapt quickly and can even cause them to heal like normal flesh.

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Bionics does need more options than are currently available, but some players just don't like the idea of a character that has been cut up and put in a can.

I'm one of those players, while some like that look for their characters I prefer that my characters be intact, no eyepatches or bionic hands or anything else of that sort.

I think more people might combine them with other things is the rules did not make them interfere with superpowers...

Probably so, depending on the super-powers bionics shouldn't negatively impact them at all. Why would winged flight become less effective just because you needed a bionic arm after all?

Could introduce a minor super-power I saw in a webcomic, it was called biocyberkinesis. Basically it was a super-power you only find out you've got when you get bionics as your body is uniquely compatible with bionics to the point you adapt quickly and can even cause them to heal like normal flesh.

I never thought the rules made any sense in that regard. You should be able to get bionics that enhance powers like that, I agree.

Combining Bionics with super abilities could work, some in comics actually have, with success depending on the tech. But sadly, Eugenics seems to have become the milkable stock among my players lately, what with 3 implants that could give powers without affecting the power category. I feel we need to go back to basics for a bit. But other than allowing other non-powered, non-magic and non-psionic categories as playable as well, what other enticement is there for bionic or cybernetic implants?

A tech upgrade would be nice, some items I can tweak. Supersoldiers without powers can easily be tweaked with Bionics easily. It seems to me merging items from Robotics as well as Rifts Bionic Sourcebook in rare cases, and not MDC would be good possibilities. Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide has some great options as well, like bionic wings, jet packs, hover jets and even micro-repair robots seem like a step up. I think people need to get out of a super ability rut at least once just to change things up. We just need to find a way to ignite that spark of interest again.

More strength. . . I know, that's not the answer for everything but sometimes it's a good start.

How many of us have special training character with a higher strength than the 19-24 they offer the conversion options they offer borgs [or even the 28 maximum]? I did not play a cyborg who's not as strong as the weapon's hardware who rolled high and took physical skills! I would like to give partial conversion/hidden borg's an extraordinary PS, with Full Conversions getting Super Human PS. ***Also note that the Super Soldier's Endoskeletal replacement gets +4d6 to PS, minimum of 26, considered superhuman.***

Next I would differentiate the different types of Borgs.

Hidden Borgs. They would share much in common with Partial Conversion Borgs and the Endoskeletal replacement. The idea is that this is a borg who's built more for spy work than for heavy combat work. I would put some additional emphasis on communcation technologies. Wireless communication is literally everywhere now, why not exploit it. Almost every cyborg/robot in comics these days are essentially telemechanic characters. They'd almost be like hardware/special training character who couldn't leave the house without their gimmicks.

Combat Borgs. With the exception of the laughable PS, I think that most of the existing options for borgs do pretty well for this type. Alot of the stuff from Rifts Bionics handbook would work nicely. I would be all for large and heavy attachments.

I agree on the "I want to be whole" character feeling. Just like I dislike playing anything not human because I cant relate it, honestly, like I can being a human. I know thats a bit extreme but its just a quirk of mine. Not many players, for good or for bad, think of something minor like backwards knees and how much it would affect just simple things in the characters life.

Incriptus wrote:More strength. . . I know, that's not the answer for everything but sometimes it's a good start.

How many of us have special training character with a higher strength than the 19-24 they offer the conversion options they offer borgs [or even the 28 maximum]? I did not play a cyborg who's not as strong as the weapon's hardware who rolled high and took physical skills! I would like to give partial conversion/hidden borg's an extraordinary PS, with Full Conversions getting Super Human PS. ***Also note that the Super Soldier's Endoskeletal replacement gets +4d6 to PS, minimum of 26, considered superhuman.***

Next I would differentiate the different types of Borgs.

Hidden Borgs. They would share much in common with Partial Conversion Borgs and the Endoskeletal replacement. The idea is that this is a borg who's built more for spy work than for heavy combat work. I would put some additional emphasis on communication technologies. Wireless communication is literally everywhere now, why not exploit it. Almost every cyborg/robot in comics these days are essentially telemechanic characters. They'd almost be like hardware/special training character who couldn't leave the house without their gimmicks.

Combat Borgs. With the exception of the laughable PS, I think that most of the existing options for borgs do pretty well for this type. Alot of the stuff from Rifts Bionics handbook would work nicely. I would be all for large and heavy attachments.

You make a very good point on the issue of strength. My one player took the Hunter/Vigilante class in HU and has a strength of 32 after all the bonuses from skills and the martial arts I allowed him from Ninjas & Super spies.

Razzinold wrote:

Incriptus wrote:More strength. . . I know, that's not the answer for everything but sometimes it's a good start.

How many of us have special training character with a higher strength than the 19-24 they offer the conversion options they offer borgs [or even the 28 maximum]? I did not play a cyborg who's not as strong as the weapon's hardware who rolled high and took physical skills! I would like to give partial conversion/hidden borg's an extraordinary PS, with Full Conversions getting Super Human PS. ***Also note that the Super Soldier's Endoskeletal replacement gets +4d6 to PS, minimum of 26, considered superhuman.***

Next I would differentiate the different types of Borgs.

Hidden Borgs. They would share much in common with Partial Conversion Borgs and the Endoskeletal replacement. The idea is that this is a borg who's built more for spy work than for heavy combat work. I would put some additional emphasis on communication technologies. Wireless communication is literally everywhere now, why not exploit it. Almost every cyborg/robot in comics these days are essentially telemechanic characters. They'd almost be like hardware/special training character who couldn't leave the house without their gimmicks.

Combat Borgs. With the exception of the laughable PS, I think that most of the existing options for borgs do pretty well for this type. Alot of the stuff from Rifts Bionics handbook would work nicely. I would be all for large and heavy attachments.

You make a very good point on the issue of strength. My one player took the Hunter/Vigilante class in HU and has a strength of 32 after all the bonuses from skills and the martial arts I allowed him from Ninjas & Super spies.

The rules seem to want to make cyborgs weak for some reason, giving them a lesser strength category than robotics when you would think they would be the same.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Razzinold wrote:

Incriptus wrote:More strength. . . I know, that's not the answer for everything but sometimes it's a good start.

How many of us have special training character with a higher strength than the 19-24 they offer the conversion options they offer borgs [or even the 28 maximum]? I did not play a cyborg who's not as strong as the weapon's hardware who rolled high and took physical skills! I would like to give partial conversion/hidden borg's an extraordinary PS, with Full Conversions getting Super Human PS. ***Also note that the Super Soldier's Endoskeletal replacement gets +4d6 to PS, minimum of 26, considered superhuman.***

Next I would differentiate the different types of Borgs.

Hidden Borgs. They would share much in common with Partial Conversion Borgs and the Endoskeletal replacement. The idea is that this is a borg who's built more for spy work than for heavy combat work. I would put some additional emphasis on communication technologies. Wireless communication is literally everywhere now, why not exploit it. Almost every cyborg/robot in comics these days are essentially telemechanic characters. They'd almost be like hardware/special training character who couldn't leave the house without their gimmicks.

Combat Borgs. With the exception of the laughable PS, I think that most of the existing options for borgs do pretty well for this type. Alot of the stuff from Rifts Bionics handbook would work nicely. I would be all for large and heavy attachments.

You make a very good point on the issue of strength. My one player took the Hunter/Vigilante class in HU and has a strength of 32 after all the bonuses from skills and the martial arts I allowed him from Ninjas & Super spies.

The rules seem to want to make cyborgs weak for some reason, giving them a lesser strength category than robotics when you would think they would be the same.

I agree on the strengths being the same unless the robotics owner was a truly massive machine.

Hmm, I think the Bionics class needs a very thorough redesign. Most of the tech seems more than dated when compared to more modern RPG's offering Cybernetics/Bionics. HU trudges with single-use implants (having a laser cannon eye means that you can shoot a laser beam from your eye, but apparently you cannot see with it) and cumbersome prosthetics that necessitate external bracing and support to use effectively (you may get that PS28 Arm, but you need to also buy an exoskeleton to be able to use all that lifting capability, because your organic body cannot take the strain of lifting a truck).

To build an effective bionic character, it seems easier to just scoop your character's brains out and implant it to a fully Bionic chassis(aka Brain Transplant Cyborg), rather than just replacing the damaged parts with Bionics. Also, building a covert bionic character seems to mean that the character turns into a guy wearing partial heavy armor, rather than just being able to hide his bionic parts under a synthskin disguise, because of the bracing needed to support that bionic arm. This kind of visual style is okay if you tend to spend a lot of time on an actual battleground, but it kinda sticks out if you have to infiltrate an upper-class banquet party, where appearance is important.

Thus, we need a plethora of totally new options for covert borgs, so that they can at least appear to be normal unaltered humans, while still being able to utilize their whole bionic bag of tricks. Also, we need to have an option to build multiple-use implants (such as a laser eye that can at least have a basic vision as well, so the character can see normally). Sure a character could have a quick-change mount for the eye built in, but changing eyes in the middle of a fight may be difficult and might leave you open for attacks if you dont duck for cover.

The weird fact that Bionics do not get the Natural A.R. treatment, does not help(so far they are the only ones who do not get it)

From looking things over I think certainly a major issue is that bionic characters should have strength ranks commiserate with robotics and/or superhumans and shouldn't have such a restricted cap on how high the PS can go. They shouldn't be so inferior to the robotics at a minimum, and as someone noted the endoskeletal cyborgs do get robotic strength and they don't have anywhere near the level of cyborg conversion as the conventional cyborg does.

I'm considering running a campaign set in the future for friends, and am considering making Bionic PS stats Extraordinary PS equivalent, then probably allowing the alien tech increases up to 40, then making Robotic limbs and Superhuman PS equivalent available to larger models, or specific limbs like an oversized bionic arm. I think allowing for it for those willing to pay extra for it. Of course, for alien equivalents, I can then bump up the PS to 60 if necessary. And no power armors or exoskeletons in my game, if you're going to go for tech power, you'll have to sacrifice some humanity.

I'm also considering using the rules of one bionic limb or three additional implants without changing classes as options to add to the Supersoldier choices. They already have the options of Endoskeletal replacement with Bionic sensors or weapons that are superior in some cases to the Bionics section(like that makes any sense), so imagine an additional limb with extensions, or maxing out bionic eyes, ears or allowing other implants like microcomputers or cell phones. It'd only make sense to me.

And yes, if the IRMS option is picked, I rule it as being able to repair implants or the Endoskeleton and other parts fused with the body as well. Man and machine reaching cybernetic unity!

All things said in this thread about how the Cyborgs class shold be updates are true, but is also worth noting that cyborgs in popular had got a more and more confusing and blurry definition of what it is.
First off in fiction cyborgs had always been divided in covert and obvious cyborg, ones that look perfectly normal(6th million dollar man as example) and others that look openly bio-mechanicals. The latter is relatively recent thing. Expecially as Heroic ones. Furthermore, like more category of superstrong heroes, the level of strength of cyborgs is never too much constant varying a lot upon the story needs(in latest comic reboot of the bionic man he is kind of....more powerful than i remember).
Add to this that there is and has never been clear the distinction between a cyborg and robot. Expecially with full models you essentially have a robot that use an organic CPU( human brain) instead of a chip(if its a good idea is questionable...see Robocop 2). Evne power armor is not safe, as latest Iron Man shown a tony so much interfaced with his power armor to be considered a cyborg all right(and he is not alone in this sense). But again with robotic is kind of the most natural hybridation. It is too bad that they end up hybridating with OTHER classes as well. In fact cybernetic implants was quite a common source of superpowers in the 80s and 90s, sometimes combining/improving innate super abilities(First amongst them Darth Vader)..
In Manga and ANime is even more confusing with every fictional universe , but witht he intriguing twist that in most of them the difference between organic and inorganic is REALLY that blurred, not just a matter of style(from Tetsu-ro to Samurai Pizza Cats universe at whole! Not talking about Cyborgs from DBZ or the Micene Empire form Mazinger mythos) and difference between robot and cyborgs are source of endless debate(that was one pivotal point of Ghost in the shell and Appleseed). In term of what they can do, as per western comics, all depend on the universe rules and sense of the story...(the top for cybernetics i think was reached in Battle Angel Alita universe. Awesome combo of super tech , bionics and Martial arts - tailored for cyborgs who build their chassis to REFLECT and ENHANCE their combat style. Why no one had thought to do that for Rifts Earth is a mistery )

In the end most cyborgs in fiction seem to have access to the equivalent of a wide array of super abilities, mopst common:
Sonic Speed( more in manga universes than in western fiction but quite present albeit it has to be said is often shown as short burst of it)
Flight Wingless(more in eastern fiction, western fiction prefer more visible graphic way of flight apparently)
Alter Limbs(got really a boost on popularity in 90s)
and almost omnipresents Machine Merge and/or Mechano Link(Technopathy).
Common is also to give Supernatural Strength but usually as consequence of an unusual form of energy generator build in the cyborg.
And of course a classic for ANY hero of ANY fiction ENDLESS FREAKING AMMO. Rockets Launchers? Darts? Shurinkens? Shot as muhc as you want as much as you like!

I'm working on an idea for a game setting that may not only help reinvigorate Bionics, but help to allow the low to no power categories a chance to shine again as well.

well with RoboCop rebooting soon to a theater near you, I think we will see a resurgence of bionic inspiration.

The upcoming Robocop remake should help quite a bit.

hungry_hippo wrote:This may not work for everyone, but I find that many of the Cybernetics from R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. are perfect for almost any kind of futuristic game. They even go deeply into implants that are unseen but always giving characters an edge.
you just need to make a few simple conversions.

Arms and Equipment from "Alternity" is a good source too. A lot of the gear in there inspired some of my creations for my games.

I have always felt that HU2 bionics were overlooked because of Rifts and such that had great super power suits and additions (like biotech).

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Bionics does need more options than are currently available, but some players just don't like the idea of a character that has been cut up and put in a can.

I'm one of those players, while some like that look for their characters I prefer that my characters be intact, no eyepatches or bionic hands or anything else of that sort.

I think more people might combine them with other things is the rules did not make them interfere with superpowers...

I feel that they could pull some great bionics from Rifts (not copy, just build from there). Those ideas are great create something that could very much mimic comics and the heroes imagination.

hungry_hippo wrote:This may not work for everyone, but I find that many of the Cybernetics from R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. are perfect for almost any kind of futuristic game. They even go deeply into implants that are unseen but always giving characters an edge. You just need to make a few simple conversions.

True, Cyberpunk 2020 is one of my favorite games, and the one I started my gaming career with. It has a much more elaborate way of turning humans into cyborgs.

The actual tech is modular in essence, you don't need to have a separate implant for everything, eyes, ears and limbs have "spaces" for options (for an example, a cybereye has four spaces, in which you might install an infrared option, a dart launcher, a flare compensator and perhaps a color changing feature for the "cool" effect, in addition to the basic vision module providing human-equivalent vision). Likewise, the basic neural processing unit (a mandatory implant for all cybernetic characters) allows you to install additional modules, such as a reflex booster to speed up reaction times, or a smartgun link to improve your targeting abilities with a specially modified gun (well duh, a smartgun, these can be normal handguns, installed within a cyberarm or weapons in external weapon mounts(which are a separate implant altogether)). The modularity of the tech allows not only more varied characters(not every character has the same mods), but also more flexibility, as the tech is less cumbersome and less geared towards single-use implants, so the character can have less implants while still retaining the same basic set of cybernetic abilities.

The basic book is good, but a plethora of additional books builds on the already solid base, offering more options including exotic modifications (cybernetics and biotech meshed together to build characters that look less like baseline humans), and FBCs (Full Body Conversions, RoboCop-style full-body prosthetics the character's brain is implanted into). Some of it doesn't really fit in, but others are solid and robust to the core.

Snowtiger wrote: The actual tech is modular in essence, you don't need to have a separate implant for everything, eyes, ears and limbs have "spaces" for options (for an example, a cybereye has four spaces, in which you might install an infrared option, a dart launcher, a flare compensator and perhaps a color changing feature for the "cool" effect, in addition to the basic vision module providing human-equivalent vision). Likewise, the basic neural processing unit (a mandatory implant for all cybernetic characters) allows you to install additional modules, such as a reflex booster to speed up reaction times, or a smartgun link to improve your targeting abilities with a specially modified gun (well duh, a smartgun, these can be normal handguns, installed within a cyberarm or weapons in external weapon mounts(which are a separate implant altogether)). The modularity of the tech allows not only more varied characters(not every character has the same mods), but also more flexibility, as the tech is less cumbersome and less geared towards single-use implants, so the character can have less implants while still retaining the same basic set of cybernetic abilities.

I agree with this. 'Slots/spaces' work good. Also there are ways to make things so they would not be 'dated'. An example I would give is this: A lot of games try to make 'future' things like a bionic eye that 'gives the time and date' (which look bad from what we know a cellphone can do) , or a cyber ear with 4TB of recording, or an internal computer with 500TB hardrive and 16 TB RAM. But what happens is that in time, those specs are ridiculously low compared to 'modern'. I would make them something like an eye option that 'has the capabilities of a modern communication device i.e. cellphone/tablet/etc.' Then 3 prices for low end, average, and high end. Then as tech changes, the bionics do not become obsolete, because the 'modern' changes as well.

If there is ever something on computers/cyberdecking, I would approach it similar. Do not use real world systems of measure. TB might seem great now, but in 1990 '1GB' seemed HUGE, now we would laugh at it. Don't want the book to be a joke in 10+ years.

ZorValachan wrote:

Snowtiger wrote: The actual tech is modular in essence, you don't need to have a separate implant for everything, eyes, ears and limbs have "spaces" for options (for an example, a cybereye has four spaces, in which you might install an infrared option, a dart launcher, a flare compensator and perhaps a color changing feature for the "cool" effect, in addition to the basic vision module providing human-equivalent vision). Likewise, the basic neural processing unit (a mandatory implant for all cybernetic characters) allows you to install additional modules, such as a reflex booster to speed up reaction times, or a smartgun link to improve your targeting abilities with a specially modified gun (well duh, a smartgun, these can be normal handguns, installed within a cyberarm or weapons in external weapon mounts(which are a separate implant altogether)). The modularity of the tech allows not only more varied characters(not every character has the same mods), but also more flexibility, as the tech is less cumbersome and less geared towards single-use implants, so the character can have less implants while still retaining the same basic set of cybernetic abilities.

I agree with this. 'Slots/spaces' work good. Also there are ways to make things so they would not be 'dated'. An example I would give is this: A lot of games try to make 'future' things like a bionic eye that 'gives the time and date' (which look bad from what we know a cellphone can do) , or a cyber ear with 4TB of recording, or an internal computer with 500TB hardrive and 16 TB RAM. But what happens is that in time, those specs are ridiculously low compared to 'modern'. I would make them something like an eye option that 'has the capabilities of a modern communication device i.e. cellphone/tablet/etc.' Then 3 prices for low end, average, and high end. Then as tech changes, the bionics do not become obsolete, because the 'modern' changes as well.

If there is ever something on computers/cyberdecking, I would approach it similar. Do not use real world systems of measure. TB might seem great now, but in 1990 '1GB' seemed HUGE, now we would laugh at it. Don't want the book to be a joke in 10+ years.

I like the idea of slots as well for bionic implants, Rifts does seem limited in some cases where I believe the targeting eye doesn't have regular vision as well (please correct me if i'm mistaken).

I see your point about not dating your tech in the game, and I agree but you'd have to be very careful with your wording when writing up descriptions. The one option you gave would work (has the capabilities of a modern communication device i.e. cellphone/tablet/etc.) but I think the computer one would be more difficult.
If you described the computer as 'an internal computer with a large storage capacity' you will always get the player who exploits the vagueness of 'large'. I guess you could word it as 'an internal computer with storage capacity equivalent to the current top technology/cutting edge technology' but then it kind of sounds a little like a cop out that you didn't give an actual description.

Razzinold wrote:I see your point about not dating your tech in the game, and I agree but you'd have to be very careful with your wording when writing up descriptions. The one option you gave would work (has the capabilities of a modern communication device i.e. cellphone/tablet/etc.) but I think the computer one would be more difficult.
If you described the computer as 'an internal computer with a large storage capacity' you will always get the player who exploits the vagueness of 'large'. I guess you could word it as 'an internal computer with storage capacity equivalent to the current top technology/cutting edge technology' but then it kind of sounds a little like a cop out that you didn't give an actual description.

If you do not mind me ripping from another game, I could explain. There was a game of various technological advancement. The one that was just slightly ahead of our time (like james bons/mission impossible) did the ''dated' thing now looking at their 'future' tech, it is painfully behind ours now. But they had another further advanced tech that used terms we could understand but were not our familair terms. Such as their cyberdeck computers had a processor speed, memory, and storage.

I remember they used 'Blocks' to represent 'size' and another value to represent speed. Programs came with a size, and a time to implement.

So if you have a comp with a storage of 10 blocks, memory of 3 blocks, and speed of 3
If you had 10 different programs of 1 block and a time of 3, the decker could have all 10 on this one comp, but only uses 3 of them at the same time (memory limit) and you could adjust where the speed went. So if you had 3 programs in memory, you could finish all the programs in 3 rounds or complete one program each round. Swapping a program with another took 1 speed. Different comps had different specs from low to high and the same with programs. Yes, it simplified things beyond 'real life', but since we do not use 'Blocks', it did not 'date' the sourcebook.

Personally I would like to see a rewrite of the HU core book to make the game less low level supers and more superheroic. Threadjack aside the cost of bionic parts as well as a lack of self repair option is what makes it less popular. Playing a full conversion borg in a rifts game made that very clear. Unless the group took high paying jobs repairs to my character took too much of money the group made as a whole. It reached a point where the GM created a nano repair unit that he allowed my character to purchase.

VR Dragon wrote:well with RoboCop rebooting soon to a theater near you, I think we will see a resurgence of bionic inspiration.

That is Robotics more than Bionics though, even has "Robo" in the name.


What really keeps it behind is the outdated technology and the fact it seems that almost anyone can get the cybernetic implants as replacement if part of this and this organization. It kinda lacks impact when everyone has cybernetic eyes and armor.

I'm already working on this for a future game I plan on running. Here's a quick breakdown.

All bionics and robotics, including in Aliens Unlimited, are available. Bionics are 1/2 book price, you can upgrade and cross robotics with it for full listed price. Bionic PS is equivalent to Extraordinary PS, Robotics is Superhuman equivalent. New stat limits are PS: 40, PP: 26, Speed: 360. Alien bionics/robotics go up to PS: 60, PP: 30, Speed: Mach 1.

If you get a cybernetic eye, ear, etc. and want another feature for it, it is considered an upgrade, NOT another part entirely. This can allow the one bionic limb and 3 cybernetic enhancements room to grow without having to pick and choose your implants while losing your power category.

Sureshot wrote:Personally I would like to see a rewrite of the HU core book to make the game less low level supers and more superheroic. Threadjack aside the cost of bionic parts as well as a lack of self repair option is what makes it less popular. Playing a full conversion borg in a rifts game made that very clear. Unless the group took high paying jobs repairs to my character took too much of money the group made as a whole. It reached a point where the GM created a nano repair unit that he allowed my character to purchase.

Aliens Unlimited: Galaxy Guide has a nano-bot self repair system now.

Most cyborg comic characters are also tech savants who have their own workshops, build and repair their own parts, and are either independently wealthy or have some sort of 3rd party funding.

Change the class to be closer to this stereotype and people won't feel so helpless when their body gets damaged.

Nano repair kits will also help.

I remember that I was never tempted to play a borg until I saw the wolfen quatoria in Phase World, strictly because it was the first borg I saw that wasn't beholden to someone else for repairs.

(I place a high value on self-sufficiency)

--flatline

Short of reprinting or copying and pasting Rifts: Bionics Sourcebook, what do you want to see?

As I tried working up an idea for this, I kept falling back that a book of this sort should be a combination Bionics and Robotics book. Both sets of systems have very similar items/tech involved. One attaches technology to a person and the other typically has a person enter it.

What about systems that can in some fashion mimic "some" super abilities?
I would say limit the amount of mimiced abilities one could buy [unlike Eugenics].

I think that for real role players, what you need to make Bionics super cool again is a remake of the Six Million Dollar Man with All the new high tech that is available and more. It would be the Six Billion Dollar Man! After that you need to release a very very high tech sourcebook: Bionics Unlimited with all the high tech things that you could think of, including Terminator stuff like the T-1000 and the T-X. Then you have created the right atmosphere and you have given them the right tool to play. If this combo fails, I will pay you dinner at the next Open House!

I think if they could get the show to be popular it would. Unfortunately, most TV shows don't portray bionics well. They did try remaking the Bionic Woman a few years back and it didn't stay on the air long.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:I think if they could get the show to be popular it would. Unfortunately, most TV shows don't portray bionics well. They did try remaking the Bionic Woman a few years back and it didn't stay on the air long.

Agree but I think Bionic Woman failed because it wasn't high tech enough and it was very lite...you should do something more "Spartacus" or "Arrow" like. Super high tech plus very violent are the ingredients for success in 2013!

ffranceschi wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:I think if they could get the show to be popular it would. Unfortunately, most TV shows don't portray bionics well. They did try remaking the Bionic Woman a few years back and it didn't stay on the air long.

Agree but I think Bionic Woman failed because it wasn't high tech enough and it was very lite...you should do something more "Spartacus" or "Arrow" like. Super high tech plus very violent are the ingredients for success in 2013!

Very violent does not do well on most of the networks. It would have to be for AMC, Spike, or one of the more hardcore networks. I think SyFy had a hand in making the Bionic Woman.

Now that there are dozens of races with big MDC and probably bio-regeneration to boot, cyborgs have lost the main advantage they had when RMB came out.

Is there anything unique to borgs that can compete with all the cool stuff that aren't bionics?

--flatline

ffranceschi wrote:I think that for real role players, what you need to make Bionics super cool again is a remake of the Six Million Dollar Man with All the new high tech that is available and more. It would be the Six Billion Dollar Man! After that you need to release a very very high tech sourcebook: Bionics Unlimited with all the high tech things that you could think of, including Terminator stuff like the T-1000 and the T-X. Then you have created the right atmosphere and you have given them the right tool to play. If this combo fails, I will pay you dinner at the next Open House!

So in other words, effectively a reprint of Rifts: Bionics Sourcebook with new gadgets/parts/etc...

Terminator, although referred to as a "Cyborg" in the movies, is effectively a Robot. T-1000 could not be put into a Palladium product due to Intellectual Property rights. "Machine People" of Phaseworld are different enough in ability and history to not be the same as T-1000's.

flatine wrote:Now that there are dozens of races with big MDC and probably bio-regeneration to boot, cyborgs have lost the main advantage they had when RMB came out.

Is there anything unique to borgs that can compete with all the cool stuff that aren't bionics?

This isn't rifts though, so RMB means nadda. One thing though that does make borgs unique [to an extent] is that most are immune to a variety or magic and psionics - without even trying. Also, if one has the money and resources, they can update themselves with new tech, weapons, etc..

Now, my question[s]...
Would you all like to see a book that is just "Gadgets" and "toys" or perhaps with a little bit of story such as an organization/company that is making these new gadgets and toys?

My apologies. I didn't realize this was the HU forum and not the Rifts forum.

I've never seen the appeal of borgs in a supers setting. Just not my thing, I suppose.

--flatline

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Terminator, although referred to as a "Cyborg" in the movies, is effectively a Robot. T-1000 could not be put into a Palladium product due to Intellectual Property rights. "Machine People" of Phaseworld are different enough in ability and history to not be the same as T-1000's.

Now, my question[s]...
Would you all like to see a book that is just "Gadgets" and "toys" or perhaps with a little bit of story such as an organization/company that is making these new gadgets and toys?

When I said "Terminator", I was talking about the tech like a liquid metal arm with a weapon like the T-X.

I would like to see a complete book: gadgets, toys and a bit of story. I have read in the forums that Greg is going to write something called Hardware Unlimited after he finnish Rifts New Navy. Perhaps that is the book that we want.

I would love to see a book with new gadgets and toys. The weapons in Aliens Unlimited always seemed a bit limited in variety and scope.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

ffranceschi wrote:I think that for real role players, what you need to make Bionics super cool again is a remake of the Six Million Dollar Man with All the new high tech that is available and more. It would be the Six Billion Dollar Man! After that you need to release a very very high tech sourcebook: Bionics Unlimited with all the high tech things that you could think of, including Terminator stuff like the T-1000 and the T-X. Then you have created the right atmosphere and you have given them the right tool to play. If this combo fails, I will pay you dinner at the next Open House!

So in other words, effectively a reprint of Rifts: Bionics Sourcebook with new gadgets/parts/etc...

Terminator, although referred to as a "Cyborg" in the movies, is effectively a Robot. T-1000 could not be put into a Palladium product due to Intellectual Property rights. "Machine People" of Phaseworld are different enough in ability and history to not be the same as T-1000's.

flatine wrote:Now that there are dozens of races with big MDC and probably bio-regeneration to boot, cyborgs have lost the main advantage they had when RMB came out.

Is there anything unique to borgs that can compete with all the cool stuff that aren't bionics?

This isn't rifts though, so RMB means nadda. One thing though that does make borgs unique [to an extent] is that most are immune to a variety or magic and psionics - without even trying. Also, if one has the money and resources, they can update themselves with new tech, weapons, etc..

Now, my question[s]...
Would you all like to see a book that is just "Gadgets" and "toys" or perhaps with a little bit of story such as an organization/company that is making these new gadgets and toys?

I would love more gadgets and toys, especially stuff like 'combat computers' or other special devices that let you feel SPECIAL not just a guy with a few widgets. I dont like companies and organizations really, most of them tend to seem to come off as...well not fitting like fabricators...its just so....big and overwhelming, I like the generic stuff that I can drop in any world, not stuff that is highly specific to one particular world and set up for that world. But thats just me.

Other then "numbers", is there truly any difference between "Partial" - "Heavy" - "Brain Transplant"?
Higher attributes, more SDC and features is about the only difference.
I am thinking of putting together something - Rifter, netbook, whatever. I was thinking these three should be renamed "[partial] Light" - "[heavy] Medium" - "[brain transplant] Heavy"
Face it, the "Partial" body package in the corebook is not partial at all.. it is a full conversion borg, just with less items/lower numbers then the others.
A true "Partial" borg would be more akin to a Head Hunter from Rifts.. someone who has maybe 1-2 limbs, a couple of implants and a weapon package of some kind.