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MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

MikeM wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Well, yeah, I have read the responses. And I don't know a single person who would take extraordinary ps when they can have superhuman strength as they are both minor powers.

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Well, yeah, I have read the responses. And I don't know a single person who would take extraordinary ps when they can have superhuman strength as they are both minor powers.

I'm one of those people, so chalk yourself up a mark on that side of the ledger. I'm not one to pick a power because 'well gee I got to have the most powerful version available', and Extraordinary PS is good enough.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

I just find it hard to play characters with the same stats for stuff over and over. It doesn't make sense that every speedster will run exactly the same speeds as another or fly at the same speeds. Why should they all have the same strength levels?

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:It also helps when writing up NPCs if they have variety and I feel, as a GM, if I am creating different characters rather than cloning the same ones over and over. There is a whole topic thread devoted to New Powers, some of which even add MORE options for differing strength levels. It breaks up the monotony and sameness/lameness.

Really easy to do even in games with a wide variety of features after you've played them long enough. Variety for a long-timer in a game is an extremely valuable commodity. While some don't mind playing 'The Fighter' over and over again others definitely need the range to feel like instead of always facing Spider-Man sometimes they're facing Punisher and others Juggernaut.

I just find it hard to play characters with the same stats for stuff over and over. It doesn't make sense that every speedster will run exactly the same speeds as another or fly at the same speeds. Why should they all have the same strength levels?

Well strength at least has a wide range of possible rolls+bonuses, I agree that it's nice when other things like flight have a wider range available but only so much you can fit into a single RPG.

flatline wrote:I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:I don't really care for point systems personally. But that's just me.

flatline wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:I don't really care for point systems personally. But that's just me.

It's not an all or nothing kind of thing.

Certain aspects of the Palladium system are already points system. Choosing skills is essentially a points system where your character class tells you how many skills you can choose. Or how many spells you can choose. Or how many psionics you can choose. Or how much you can spend on bionics. Or spending Bio-E points on host armor/mounts. Etc.

Why not super powers?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

If power increases linearly (think Champions or GURPS), you eventually stop investing points because of diminishing returns. If power increases exponentially (think White Wolf's system 15 years ago (I have no idea if they still use the d10 system)), then you specialize until you've maxed out the power and then you start developing another power.

Both approaches have their place depending on the type of game you want.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:I always thought having minor and major categories was a bad way of doing it.

Each character should get some number of points that they can spend however they want.

Each power should list what it can do based on the number of points invested in it.

--flatline

I never did like systems like that...
All too often the "costs" for powers got prohibitive quickly or the power levels reached the ridiculous too quickly or both.
"stepped" powers is a nice idea in theory however.
Its just that all too often the execution is lacking.

If power increases linearly (think Champions or GURPS), you eventually stop investing points because of diminishing returns. If power increases exponentially (think White Wolf's system 15 years ago (I have no idea if they still use the d10 system)), then you specialize until you've maxed out the power and then you start developing another power.

Both approaches have their place depending on the type of game you want.

--flatline

and neither approach suits my play style.

The only decent variant of the concept was Marvels FASERIP system and it had its own issues. (especially after the introduction of the Ultimate Powers book).

flatline wrote:Take a look at FUDGE. It's kind of points based, but instead of buying things individually, you buy packages similar to how splicers has skill packages, except that the skills aren't specified, just the number of skills and the skill level for each (one package might have 2 mediocre skills, 2 good skills, and 1 great skill, another package might simply have 4 good skills, etc).
--flatline

Senator Cybus wrote:3) H.U. really needs a third level of powers between minor and major. Median powers? Medium, Midway, Middle powers?

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Dobergirl wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Actually Superhuman is Captain America's levels of strength, Spider-man is Supernatural strength. (he can lift 10 tons on straight arms, people keep forgetting that!) Extraordinary strength is Batman, Punisher, Nightwing and such levels of strength. Probably not called so in their perspective canons but the heroes in Heroes Unlimited almost never reach the levels of the mainstream heroes, unless rolling them as either Immortals or Mega-Hero.

Nightmask wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

MikeM wrote:I personally never make people roll, but I do want them to have a concept and stick with it.
I just can't imagine anyone selecting extraordinary physical strength over superhuman strength. In fact, I don't even know why the extraordinary physical strength power is even listed. Should just have the one power superhuman strength.

Then you haven't read the responses about the issue as well as what's said in the Heroes Unlimited Books regarding the issue, namely that not everyone wants superhuman strength and are fine with Extraordinary PS. You may want all the physical strength and power possible but not everyone thinks as you do, some are fine being stronger but not massively stronger than everyone else. It's the difference between the guy who's fine with Captain America's level of strength compared to Spider-man's.

Actually Superhuman is Captain America's levels of strength, Spider-man is Supernatural strength. (he can lift 10 tons on straight arms, people keep forgetting that!) Extraordinary strength is Batman, Punisher, Nightwing and such levels of strength. Probably not called so in their perspective canons but the heroes in Heroes Unlimited almost never reach the levels of the mainstream heroes, unless rolling them as either Immortals or Mega-Hero.

If there's one thing I'll never forget its the powers and abilities of Spider-man, but Heroes Unlimited's way of rating PS makes nearly all super-heroes in the Supernatural PS category from other companies. With the perspective HU has Spider-man would be more Extraordinary PS, and stretching it to say Superhuman (same goes with Captain America). So Captain America level is basically Extraordinary PS, Spider-man's level is Superhuman, and someone like Thor or Superman would be Supernatural level. You could never really represent those characters in HU terms because they'd need a PS in the 10s of thousands range of higher, which is absurd with how things are set up.

MikeM wrote:if you have a concept you want to stick with, that's one thing it other than that, why would anyone take extraordinary PS?

Mediapig71 wrote:Physical Training characters can acquire Extraordinary and Superhuman Strength. So someone like Batman or the Punisher could, theoretically, have Superman Strength.

Jefffar wrote:

Warning: A reminder, on these boards there is a No Conversions policy. This includes discussing which Palladium classes might be best suited for emulating comic book characters.

If further posts discussing this appear in this thread the posters will e warned and the thread locked.

Dobergirl wrote:Supernatural strength (can lift 10 tons on straight arms)

Tor wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:Supernatural strength (can lift 10 tons on straight arms)

Being able to do a locked out support of a given weight isn't the same as being able to 'lift' the weight though. Compare the number of people who can do handstands to the number who can do handstand pushups. Or the number of people who can stand versus the number who can squat. Or the number who can balance on 1 leg compared to the number who can pistol squat. People are always dramatically stronger at lockout since the bones are aligned to optimize leverage.

Dobergirl wrote:Way to entirely miss the point.

Dobergirl wrote:if you can't handle the weight and put yourself in lockout, you'll have a serious injury.

Tor wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

Dobergirl wrote:

Tor wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:

Tor wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:

Tor wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:
When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.

Are you trying to use the Comics Medium to justify your stance? Not a stable footing that... the Hero has the Strength the plot requires which the RPG medium cannot emulate since it does require we quantify every power to the last decimal.

I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

In an RPG, the GM is the arbitrator who can choose to allow or disallow whatever he wants which can easily include allowing characters to accomplish whatever feat advances the plot even if their stats are technically insufficient.

A tactical war game, on the other hand, has no arbitrator analogous to the GM, so the rules of such a game must carefully describe the proper handling of any scenario that might come up within the rules.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:I think you are confusing role playing games with tactical war games. RPGs can be as detailed (or not) as they want to be.

--flatline

In both there are limits that are applied to the abilities a char may have. Emulating the Power levels of plot is not something a game system of any stripe is able to do well.
That is why most of them leave that up to each individual GM.

In an RPG, the GM is the arbitrator who can choose to allow or disallow whatever he wants which can easily include allowing characters to accomplish whatever feat advances the plot even if their stats are technically insufficient.

A tactical war game, on the other hand, has no arbitrator analogous to the GM, so the rules of such a game must carefully describe the proper handling of any scenario that might come up within the rules.

--flatline

Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

Correct. But since an RPG has a GM to cover the gaps, it is not necessary for the rules to "quantify every power to the last decimal". That was the point I was trying to make.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:Not arguing that point.
The GM is the Final Arbiter of what happens in his/her game.
But when one discusses such things in the context of a message forum such as this we must all work from a common ground. That ground is unfortunately that of the text in the books and the text alone.
To base a discussion on anything outside what can and cannot be be with in the frame work of the common rules is pointless. Since in that respect neither party can back up their points with anything beyond "well it works this way because I say it does."

Correct. But since an RPG has a GM to cover the gaps, it is not necessary for the rules to "quantify every power to the last decimal". That was the point I was trying to make.

--flatline

And that is where you would be wrong...
The system has to quantify things to that degree because no two people will run the game the same way.

Some want to run it at as a table top tactical game.
Some want to run it as story driven.
Some want a mix of the two.
So the system has to take into account all three points of view.

The Frame of reference has to be same for all three types.
Where they choose to take it from there is their choice but they must have the same base frame of reference to begin any conversations.

flatline wrote:Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

I apologize if I somehow struck a nerve, but if I'm a lost cause for some reason, then perhaps you can answer for the others who are reading this thread.

--flatline

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:Again, why is it important that different games start at the same place?

--flatline

If you have to ask then no answer I give is going to enlighten your already closed mind.

Dobergirl wrote:

Tor wrote:

Dobergirl wrote:Way to entirely miss the point.

Which is what? The stats for lifting weight in Rifts indicate the amount you can raise, not the amount you can support in a raised position.

When generally talking about superheroes and stuff, how much they can lift is exactly how much they can support or that can sometimes be a bit more than lifting depending on the writer and the scene. This isn't Rifts, so I don't think those stats would apply here.