Re: How would topple the Coalition?
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:20 pm
I don't think that Coalition could ever be fully gotten rid of. They can be drastically reduced but completely wiped out short of a full Splugorth invasion.
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With only such a small band of players?Icemaster109 wrote:So me and a group of fellow GM's were having a spirted debate on how we would run a game where the sole objective was to topple the Coalition. After a couple of beers, we were some what flabbergasted and I decided that I will go to the Rifts community to shed some light. Now before we get started I wanted to lay down some ground rules.
Firstly I'd like to define "topple the Coalition". By topple we mean to either eliminate, significantly reduce there presence, or reduce their credibility as a significant threat.
Nextly - we have a couple of rules.
1. It has to be a strategy that could feasibly be enacted by a group of players (1-10 PC's)
2. Your limited to OCC's that are plausibly available to North America. They may not be native, but must be plausibly available.
3. No meta-classes (You can't just send in 10 cosmo knights to kill Prosek)
So how would you do it? What would your plan or overall strategy be. Who and what would you need to do it?
enhancer wrote:Gain control of the Coalition's Ohio Class Nuclear Attack Submarine and launch all of it's missiles, or launch them through a rift so they can't be intercepted. Alternative:fire them at Atlantis and watch the retaliation.
enhancer wrote:Those are a few off the top of my head.
Mercdog wrote:Simply put, I wouldn't topple the CS. The stability of their power structure is, IMO, necessary to the lands of NA. That said, I'd be all for some strategic assassinations in the upper echelons of power to ensure that more even-handed and rational leaders could rise to prominence.
enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:Well, if the CS wasn't protected by the hand of God (aka Kevin) many of the high end generals of the Coalition States and both Proseks would already be laboring under the Death Curse. Which would in effect severely curtail their effectiveness over time as they would have quite a few penalties to the rolls that are necessary to run their intelligence and other networks. Add in the fact that the nightmares would ensure they wouldn't be able to get a night of restful sleep and there's lots of bad stuff coming their way as far as actually being functional goes much less performing any tasks truly well. See p104-105 of the Book of Magic for the full description of Death Curse.
No way to get rid of it except a friendly and powerful god... and they only have a 21% chance of being able to remove it.
After Tolkeen with as many magic users the Coalition slaughtered they're probably laboring under more than one instance of the Death Curse each to boot!
Without those generals and the cult of Prosek running the place it won't take long before infighting starts taking its own toll amongst the upper echelon that's left and the Coalition is overall much less of a threat.
And that's discounting the Teleportation: Superior after scrying the enemy and teleporting in bombs and critters thing which would have happened long before the fall of Tolkeen in the first place were it not for the Word of Siembieda that is protecting the Coalition States as well as Blight which would be starving them.
Yeah, between the MB, Federation of Magic and Siege of Tolkeen books, it's hard to see how Chi-Town came out unscathed. However your Death Curse has a problem, it affects those who killed the person, or sometimes someone who hired the assassin. I doubt the Proseks have ever directly killed anyone. Trying to blame those above for leading them runs into a problem, for if a mage is stabbed by a Dog Boy or shot by a grunt, there are over 20 ranks above them to get through before you can land the blame on the Proseks, or even the high staff. Unless Karl personally hired an assassin, good luck with that.
enhancer wrote:The Beast wrote:Mercdog wrote:Simply put, I wouldn't topple the CS. The stability of their power structure is, IMO, necessary to the lands of NA. That said, I'd be all for some strategic assassinations in the upper echelons of power to ensure that more even-handed and rational leaders could rise to prominence.
Combine that with changing the hearts & minds of the people of the CS will be the only real option that'll work in the long run.
With enough tools and the right Cyber-Doc I'm sure I change the CS hearts and minds.
enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:You're missing the point - read the whole spell description very carefully.
It's who the sorcerer *Believes* is responsible, and the spell even works on those who are innocent of the act.
I have read it, I have the book in my hands. I understand that it's possible to believe that somebody else is responsible and curse them, but I would guess this for situations where you don't know who killed you(traps, snipers, sickness, curses). If a guy is stabbing you, do you ignore him and yell "PROSEK!" to the heavens? How many people go, yep, Karl Prosek personally fired that gun, or hired that hit. I may live in a tiny village on the outskirts of South Dakota, but I'm sure the Emperor himself personally asked for my execution.
You are saying that all mages who happen to have this spell when they die are all insane and believe themselves to be martyred by the Proseks. What you are looking for is a blank check in the rules.
enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:You're missing the point - read the whole spell description very carefully.
It's who the sorcerer *Believes* is responsible, and the spell even works on those who are innocent of the act.
I have read it, I have the book in my hands. I understand that it's possible to believe that somebody else is responsible and curse them, but I would guess this for situations where you don't know who killed you(traps, snipers, sickness, curses). If a guy is stabbing you, do you ignore him and yell "PROSEK!" to the heavens? How many people go, yep, Karl Prosek personally fired that gun, or hired that hit. I may live in a tiny village on the outskirts of South Dakota, but I'm sure the Emperor himself personally asked for my execution.
You are saying that all mages who happen to have this spell when they die are all insane and believe themselves to be martyred by the Proseks. What you are looking for is a blank check in the rules.
No, I specifically stated in the War on Tolkeen, many of the Patriots of Tolkeen probably lay the whole mess at the Prosek's feet if you'll scroll up you can see that.
Doesn't matter, your open interpretation applies to everyone. The Coalition, Tolkeen, Lord Coake(cyber-knight kills an evil mage), Free Quebec, Larsen's Brigade. Enjoy.
enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:enhancer wrote:Doesn't matter, your open interpretation applies to everyone. The Coalition, Tolkeen, Lord Coake(cyber-knight kills an evil mage), Free Quebec, Larsen's Brigade. Enjoy.
I never said it didn't. My interpretation fits the text of the spell.
Your interpretation can fit the text of the spell. But it's your interpretation. Your interpretation also makes sure there are no leaders in the Megaverse that still have good stats because this spell exists. You destroy the mechanics, story and characters of the game. Is there some reason you enjoy this other than taking comfort in saying "well the book said so"?
Godogma wrote:However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.
enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.
Except I never said it would stop at the Coalition - you're trying to put words in my mouth there.
If "no one knows the spell at all" how is it supposed to take down the Coalition? My point is even before you used it against the Coalition someone would have used it the the same fashion you desired on anyone else. It's like saying "I'm going to nuke the Coalition by giving everyone in the game nukes".
enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.
Except I never said it would stop at the Coalition - you're trying to put words in my mouth there.
If "no one knows the spell at all" how is it supposed to take down the Coalition? My point is even before you used it against the Coalition someone would have used it the the same fashion you desired on anyone else. It's like saying "I'm going to nuke the Coalition by giving everyone in the game nukes".
Lt Gargoyle wrote:I say the Van Guard have placed protection spells all over the city of chi town to protect the emperor from such spells. I would not allow a single player to have this spell as a GM. I would not even allow it to be misconstrude. If you believe someone had you killed with no evidence or reason other then some delusion of your own mind, is a stretch.
enhancer wrote:flatline wrote:enhancer wrote:Godogma wrote:enhancer wrote:Doesn't matter, your open interpretation applies to everyone. The Coalition, Tolkeen, Lord Coake(cyber-knight kills an evil mage), Free Quebec, Larsen's Brigade. Enjoy.
I never said it didn't. My interpretation fits the text of the spell.
Your interpretation can fit the text of the spell. But it's your interpretation. Your interpretation also makes sure there are no leaders in the Megaverse that still have good stats because this spell exists. You destroy the mechanics, story and characters of the game. Is there some reason you enjoy this other than taking comfort in saying "well the book said so"?
Don't go claiming his reading of the spell is wrong just because if he's right, the current setting is unsustainable. Death Curse is just one of dozens of spells/psionics/powers/whatever that could, as written, completely alter the setting.
Let me give you another example, this time from Wormwood. There's a whole dimension of Holy Terrors, but game balance is preserved because the shifter that opened the portal to that dimension is dead and for some reason nobody else can find a way to that dimension. Except that every Holy Terror on Wormwood is from that dimension. And there's a spell that grants literacy. And anyone who can read a scroll of dimensional portal can open a portal to any dimension they've been to. See the problem?
For what it's worth, I agree with his interpretation of Death Curse. I've often pondered giving Talismans of Death Curse to every fanatical anti-CS person I run into just on the off-chance that one of them would be able to use it against Prosek or some non-grunt that actually mattered.
--flatline
Your tag says you don't want canon answers, but well reasoned ones, but you support a verbatim spell interpretation that destroys not just game balance, but every prominent NPC in the game. If not for making the game unsustainable, what other reason do you need to apply sense to this spell?
enhancer wrote:flatline wrote:
The game is already unstable by design and Death Curse is already self-limiting by design, so I'm cool with it. Personally, I consider it a waste of a spell, but it does come up in threads like this as an unreliable yet viable weapon against the CS (or anyone else, for that matter).
The circumstances required to be able to use Death Curse are hard enough to orchestrate that I don't see it as a game destroying spell as written in the book. The CS could continue to function if Prosek was afflicted by the Death Curse and there's no indication in the book that multiple Death Curses stack (although a GM could certainly rule that way).
--flatline
The spell is self limiting only if you are talking about it being taught to casters who then die. I suggested several others where it would not be self limiting with abuse by Shape Shifters, Psychics and Demons. You proposed using anyone and a Talisman to accomplish an ongoing campaign of martyrs upon the Coalition. If you thought it was a waste of a spell, or hard to orchestrate, why suggest it as a tactic?
Godogma wrote:...I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc...
The Beast wrote:Godogma wrote:...I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc...
Lord Dunscon knows it.
Rallan wrote:Hire assassins who can teleport (or turn intangible, astrally travel, or cast 4D Transformation), give them high explosives, and get them to find and kill the entire high command.
You know, the blindingly obvious tactic that didn't stop the Siege of Tolkeen in six minutes because all the major players had to be incompetent morons for the sake of the plot.
Godogma wrote:The Beast wrote:Godogma wrote:...I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc...
Lord Dunscon knows it.
Where is Lord Dunscon actually statted in the books? I must have missed it because I can't even recall seeing an entry for him.
enhancer wrote:Nightmaster wrote:Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:
Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145
Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.
That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:enhancer wrote:Nightmaster wrote:Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:
Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145
Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.
That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.
Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.
Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:enhancer wrote:Nightmaster wrote:Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:
Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145
Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.
That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.
Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.
*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*
Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.
Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:enhancer wrote:Nightmaster wrote:Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:
Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145
Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.
That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.
Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.
*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*
Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:enhancer wrote:Nightmaster wrote:Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:
Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145
Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.
That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.
Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.
*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*
Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.
you are so right why would a mage fight for and try to save a group of people trying to kill him, thats only something a hero would do
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:i take it you guys dont play your characters as heroes
Godogma wrote:As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.
There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.
There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.
Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.
There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.
Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.
There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.
Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".
"Oh no we can't do anything to CS because KS is protecting them". Sounds an excuse to me, IMO.
Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Godogma wrote:As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.
There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.
Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".
"Oh no we can't do anything to CS because KS is protecting them". Sounds an excuse to me, IMO.
I didn't say that we as players and GM's can't do things to the CS, I said nothing was going to happen to them in the main story because KS is protecting them. They have plot protection as the Evil Empire (TM). For instance see Blight of Ages and various other spells of legend and the Founders Stone as was mentioned earlier.