Forums of the Megaverse®

I was just wondering if something like this were possible. I haven't seen anything to contradict it, but I also haven't read every thing on juicers yet (honestly I have read most of it, but I skimmed through some parts). Something like this would be outright devastating in the right hands. Let me know if you know where to find the rules for or against this please.

i do not know if its against the rules, but why would a mage want to become a juicer? he/she would have magic at his beck and call. I would not allow a juicer to become a mage because i believe it takes a few years of apprenticeship any type of magic OCC or years of trial and error on ones own. I don't see a juicer sitting still long enough to manage learning magic.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:i do not know if its against the rules, but why would a mage want to become a juicer? he/she would have magic at his beck and call. I would not allow a juicer to become a mage because i believe it takes a few years of apprenticeship any type of magic OCC or years of trial and error on ones own. I don't see a juicer sitting still long enough to manage learning magic.

Not everyone who becomes a Juicer wanted to be a Juicer, and unfortunately the OCC doesn't really account for the fact that a mage or other OCC could find himself turned into a Juicer and is written as if you simply started for some reason with an intent to be one. Same problem with Cyborgs, they refer to people who end up slave borgs yet has a generic limited set of skills when logically slave conversion to cyborg status should include people who were other OCC like Rogue Scholars or even a Special Forces OCC.

Nightmask wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:i do not know if its against the rules, but why would a mage want to become a juicer? he/she would have magic at his beck and call. I would not allow a juicer to become a mage because i believe it takes a few years of apprenticeship any type of magic OCC or years of trial and error on ones own. I don't see a juicer sitting still long enough to manage learning magic.

Not everyone who becomes a Juicer wanted to be a Juicer, and unfortunately the OCC doesn't really account for the fact that a mage or other OCC could find himself turned into a Juicer and is written as if you simply started for some reason with an intent to be one. Same problem with Cyborgs, they refer to people who end up slave borgs yet has a generic limited set of skills when logically slave conversion to cyborg status should include people who were other OCC like Rogue Scholars or even a Special Forces OCC.

that is fair. but if the mage escapes and with both Juicer and magic at his disposal I am sure he could. I see him detoxing within a couple years. He has more power at his finger tips. And why not create magic effect that mimic the juicer. I could see this as something done by Tolkeen in their war with the CS. but this would be extreme to me.

I tend to think of the idea as a type of battle mage. Battle mages pride themselves on their combat abilities as well as their magical understanding. A juicer mage is basically a jacked up battle mage, a battle mage that wanted to rely on his physical strength as well as his mystic knowledge. The mage simply, after apprenticeship and years of study decided he wanted to be able to hold his own in case something happened to his ability to wield magic, i.e. he has spent all of his PPE or he is in a place that magic is not allowed or is simply not at all available (non magic rift or something to that nature). Either way, he wanted to survive even when all magic had been exhausted.

BloodAnjiel wrote:I was just wondering if something like this were possible. I haven't seen anything to contradict it, but I also haven't read every thing on juicers yet (honestly I have read most of it, but I skimmed through some parts).

Nothing at all stopping a Juicer from becoming a Juicer-Mage combination.........IF the character was a Mage first and later on became a Juicer.

The time factor is simply far too great to consider trying to do it the other way around (even for creatures like True Atlanteans and Elves).

Song juicer

Lt Gargoyle wrote:And why not create magic effect that mimic the juicer. I could see this as something done by Tolkeen in their war with the CS. but this would be extreme to me.

Aside from duration, aren't there spells (or combos) that already do this essentially like "Fleet Feet" (taken from PF) or "Magical-Adrenal Rush"?

The Juicer Bio-Comps count as 2 bionic implants.

Song juicer
Mega-juicer
Those are the current options on what happens when high PPE potentials convert.

Would a Mage be able to convert to the maxi-killer juicer? I mean, it's a biological process from the word "Go!"

enhancer wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The Juicer Bio-Comps count as 2 bionic implants.

Is there an echo in here?

Is there?
Is there?
Is there....?

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:And why not create magic effect that mimic the juicer. I could see this as something done by Tolkeen in their war with the CS. but this would be extreme to me.

Aside from duration, aren't there spells (or combos) that already do this essentially like "Fleet Feet" (taken from PF) or "Magical-Adrenal Rush"?

I am not sure of all the spells that could be used. Especially from the PF line. But if they are not there then I have no doubt a mage with a little time and imagination could create them.

Which is the point. Why would a mage want to under go conversion into a juicer. Maybe the euro one if the GM allows that in north america, but to me it would seem to hinder the mage more then to assist him/her when magic could be made to do the same thing. I could see them designing magical items to help this process along. I am kind of surprised there are no techno wizard trying to do just that. Especially since the fall of tolkeen and the need to be able to stand up to the CS.

I see most Mages trying to build a library of magic, as a jucier this will not happen. there is not enough time for them to do so. But what about some of the basic incantations? with the jucier modes and your reflexes and movements so enhanced, could that screw up the basic incantations? While the wizard would do all the movements, the speed and possibly the speech could be blurred causing massive mishaps.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:And why not create magic effect that mimic the juicer. I could see this as something done by Tolkeen in their war with the CS. but this would be extreme to me.

Aside from duration, aren't there spells (or combos) that already do this essentially like "Fleet Feet" (taken from PF) or "Magical-Adrenal Rush"?

I am not sure of all the spells that could be used. Especially from the PF line. But if they are not there then I have no doubt a mage with a little time and imagination could create them.

Which is the point. Why would a mage want to under go conversion into a juicer. Maybe the euro one if the GM allows that in north america, but to me it would seem to hinder the mage more then to assist him/her when magic could be made to do the same thing. I could see them designing magical items to help this process along. I am kind of surprised there are no techno wizard trying to do just that. Especially since the fall of tolkeen and the need to be able to stand up to the CS.

I see most Mages trying to build a library of magic, as a jucier this will not happen. there is not enough time for them to do so. But what about some of the basic incantations? with the jucier modes and your reflexes and movements so enhanced, could that screw up the basic incantations? While the wizard would do all the movements, the speed and possibly the speech could be blurred causing massive mishaps.

RAW is spells only require spoken words.

enhancer wrote:Option 3 is just going straight for the designer drugs like Crash or Rush and when they start to wear off do Purge Self(70) and Heal Self(20) for no lasting effects. This would not however stop the risk of addiction because it is mental as well as physical dependence, all though I would probably say they would be more resistant(for a while anyway). Potentially could be used with magic herbs as an alternative. Hehe, the Herb Juicer "GET AWAY FROM MY STASH!"

The problem I am having with something like this is, if I'm not mistaken, herbs take time to actually have the desired effect. Smoke the joint, three minutes later you're a juicer, kind of thing. I'm a Juicer, I'm user, I'm a midnight loser.

My thought on going the safest route is some TW device. You have the spells Superhuman Endurance, Superhuman Strength (?), Magic Adrenal Rush, Speed Weapon, and so on and so forth, that mimic Juicer abilities. The great thing about TW devices is that you can give yourself other advantages (Eyes of the Wolf, Fly as the eagle, etc). Now that I am thinking about this, I am going to have to see what I can come up with as far as TW devices go.

dragonfett wrote:My thought on going the safest route is some TW device. You have the spells Superhuman Endurance, Superhuman Strength (?), Magic Adrenal Rush, Speed Weapon, and so on and so forth, that mimic Juicer abilities. The great thing about TW devices is that you can give yourself other advantages (Eyes of the Wolf, Fly as the eagle, etc). Now that I am thinking about this, I am going to have to see what I can come up with as far as TW devices go.

Don't forget Superhuman Agility (Merc Adventures pg 14) that spell alone is wicked for the auto-dodge bonuses... then again I'm kind of addicted to auto-dodge.

TW juicer harness with magic adrenal rush and, superhuman speed, superhuman agility and superhuman strength.

Once upon a blue moon, in a book far, far away... There was a Mystic Power Armor, that was basically the most awesome suit of magic armor available. It cost a "measly" 2 million credits. It was then never seen, heard of, or written EVER AGAIN!

... Then the retcon that is RIFTS Ultimate Edition came. The Mystic Power Armor was gone. No more. However, that armor, now with the application of RUE would be EPIC!

enhancer wrote:

Johnathan wrote:Once upon a blue moon, in a book far, far away... There was a Mystic Power Armor, that was basically the most awesome suit of magic armor available. It cost a "measly" 2 million credits. It was then never seen, heard of, or written EVER AGAIN!

... Then the retcon that is RIFTS Ultimate Edition came. The Mystic Power Armor was gone. No more. However, that armor, now with the application of RUE would be EPIC!

Yeah I think they hated it because it flew in the face of their it's not TW Power Armor(even though it's right there in the TW class) and magic doesn't work inside Power Armor thing, which they got away with because it was "magical" instead. I always thought "Hot Damn, who makes these things? And why aren't they everywhere? And why isn't Tolkeen equipped with nothing BUT these things?". Seriously, just replacing the Impervious to Fire with Impervious to Energy knocks out the majority of the Coalition arsenal. And having an armor that can completely repair itself for no money(just P.P.E) and has no ammo repays itself for a merc company pretty damn quick. They also fly completely silently and NEVER needs to change/recharge it's power source, you buy it and it lasts forever. In fact, screw Juicers, I just want this .

Right!? Replace impervious to fire with impervious to energy and breath without air with sustain and BAM! Awesomeness.

I want this techno PA. no need to pump my vains with all those nasty drugs.

Juicer-Witch.

Splugorthian Damned Immortal Maxi-Killer. Oh god, I think I broke some kind of rule(s). I had to with THIS nasty... Cause if not, I'm totally writing one up as an NPC!

enhancer wrote:

Johnathan wrote:Splugorthian Damned Immortal Maxi-Killer. Oh god, I think I broke some kind of rule(s). I had to with THIS nasty... Cause if not, I'm totally writing one up as an NPC!

I think you might find that not as nice as you hoped. The problem is the symbiote. Not that the symbiote will die of old age or something, we've no indication how long they live(most Splugorth symbiote don't live more than a hundred years though) it's that when the armor gets injured enough it has to feed on the host to regenerate. If you are damaged enough too, or keep getting attacked while it tries, normally it will eat you both until you die. In this case being immortal it couldn't eat you till you die, but sooner or later it will eat all of the nutrients in your body, and what that happens it still will die. Also don't forget that just because you are immortal it doesn't mean the symbiote is. Someone could blast, tear, purge, or amputate it out of you, and you would live(ouch) with a gaping hole in your chest. Potentially if that occurred you go back to the Splugorth for another one(run away characters are out of luck), but there is no guarantee there would be enough left of you for it to attach to.
Maxi-Killers are like most Juicers and awesome in the short term. However in the long run they too have little to gain from leveling, and few skills. Long term, a Tattooed Maxi-Man just gets stronger and stronger, can use their tattoos with a thought, eventually get all the tattoos, which give more P.P.E, and if you make sure to get the Pheonix Rising From the Flames tattoo, it will offset old age for much longer. Also, unlike Maxi-Killers, they can use TW weapons.
A more impressive combination for a Maxi-Killer is making them out of a Hawrk-Ra or Hawrk-Owl, as they are invulnerable to magic spells, so you would a super juicer who is immune to magic.

Apologies that I did not clarify on this matter. A Damned Immortal, much like a witch, is someone who has willingly entered into a deal with a demon lord, Infernal or some other ancient evil, in exchange for power and immortality. Immortality, in this case, as an incredibly long-lived and demonically empowered individual. Now, while you are granted incredibly long life, enhanced healing/endurance, as well as "other" possible powers, the immortal is still, definitely, killable.

So, even in this case, if the symbiote were to eat up all of this characters MDC in order try and heal itself, the character is still, very much so, dead and his soul becomes the propert of his evil master. Also, a successful Merge Symbiote spell would hinder the symbiote dying on its own. That, again SHOULD the symbiote die, the immortal host would, eventually, regenerate though without the powers granted him by the symbiote, obviously.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and pretty cheap/munchy, admittedly. However, I would also not put it past any Splugorth, who was cavalier enough, to at least try and see if it would work.

enhancer wrote:

Johnathan wrote:
Apologies that I did not clarify on this matter. A Damned Immortal, much like a witch, is someone who has willingly entered into a deal with a demon lord, Infernal or some other ancient evil, in exchange for power and immortality. Immortality, in this case, as an incredibly long-lived and demonically empowered individual. Now, while you are granted incredibly long life, enhanced healing/endurance, as well as "other" possible powers, the immortal is still, definitely, killable.

So, even in this case, if the symbiote were to eat up all of this characters MDC in order try and heal itself, the character is still, very much so, dead and his soul becomes the propert of his evil master. Also, a successful Merge Symbiote spell would hinder the symbiote dying on its own. That, again SHOULD the symbiote die, the immortal host would, eventually, regenerate though without the powers granted him by the symbiote, obviously.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and pretty cheap/munchy, admittedly. However, I would also not put it past any Splugorth, who was cavalier enough, to at least try and see if it would work.

Oh sorry I thought you meant the Dragons & Gods curse . I can't seem to find the Damned Immortal, which book is it in? Sounds a lot like the Gift of Union(another powerful combo with the Maxi-Killer) like you say. By Merge Symbiote do you mean the Complete Symbiosis spell from Rifter 15? I agree that it's not that munchy, Splugorth love to experiment on people(Bio-Borgs), could make for an interesting and difficult NPC.

The Damned Immortal can be found in Mystic China. And yes, I did mean Complete Symbiosis from Rifter 15. Again, apologies, I do not have my books immediately available. My thoughts would be to merge the symbiote to the host, then if they manage to live long enough and/or are wily/cunning enough to survive until close to last call. If the Splugorth master found them of adequate interest... They could offer this version of immortality as continued and guaranteed servitude.

enhancer wrote:

Johnathan wrote:
The Damned Immortal can be found in Mystic China. And yes, I did mean Complete Symbiosis from Rifter 15. Again, apologies, I do not have my books immediately available. My thoughts would be to merge the symbiote to the host, then if they manage to live long enough and/or are wily/cunning enough to survive until close to last call. If the Splugorth master found them of adequate interest... They could offer this version of immortality as continued and guaranteed servitude.

Gotcha, I was looking everywhere else, wouldn't have thought to look there. It could be done, however the point of the Damned Immortal is that it them gives a human form to blend in. A Maxi-Killer would have a hard time doing that. Eventually as well they would just turn into a demon of sorts, after 1,000+ years. But I could definitely see them doing it for a minion, especially a loyal one. In fact, it's a perfect way for them to enforce loyalty, as once the person out lives what would normally be their own life span(very short for the Maxi-Killer), effectively the only thing keeping them alive is the demonic influence, so if the minion tries to betray the master BAM, they cut them loose and they die instantly. Frankly I'm surprised they don't do it already, as they would have a completely loyal immortal army(Splynncryth's 10,000 immortals ). My only guess is perhaps it can only be done by the Yama Kings, or their minions.

My guess, as to the reason behind why this isn't done, is because it's broken, honestly. Otherwise, every "infernal, dark god and powerful supernatural being", to quote the book would have veritable armies of immortals under their sway. However, the description also states that these beings look for powerful candidates for this deal. Obviously, that doesn't qualify everyone...

Probably and completely understandable too. Infernals, demons lords, dark gods and other supernatural baddies tend to not be very prolific in the N&SS 'verse. It also states that most demons/infernals are usually very up front about the up sides to the pact... But that they soft petal centuries of servitude. Which, as we know, tends to be the case with these things:

Demon: okay... So... Just sign right here and we're set!
PC: I don't have a pen...
Demon: Oh no... Not a pen. I'll need your signature in blood, good sir. Oh... And could please be so kind as to write your full name. Thanks...
PC: Wait...
Demon: Hmm...? I thought we had a deal...
PC: Well... Just so I understand this right. You're going to make me immortal AND give me all these nifty powers... AND as I get older I'll get even more powers?
Demon: Yep! You got it! Pretty sweet deal, huh? Now... If you'll just sign right here...
PC: ... And what am I giving up for all of this awesome power and immortality...?
Demon: Oh... Details. We can hash all those out later. Just sign right there on the dotted li-
PC: Oh no, Mr. Demon. There's gotta be a catch... There's ALWAYS a catch!
Demon: *sigh* Fiiiiine... You just have to give me your soul. That's it! Remember... You're going to live for centuries upon centuries! I'm not asking you to go die for me... Or collect worshippers... Or found a cult... Or kill your first born... Or give me your first born... Or kill some enemy of mine that you don't even know... Or ANYTHING like that! It's just one measly, little, teensy-weensy, itty-bitty soul... What's the big deal?
PC: Well... When you put it like that... Okay! Let's do this! *signs*

... Four Hundred Years Later...
Demon: Hey Guy... I want you to go kill this person. He's become a pain in my rear by all of his "do-gooding", killing my followers and burning down one of MY cults too.
PC: But... I don't even know this dude! He hasn't done anything wrong to ME...
Demon: C'mon... I gave you immortality and power! I made you way more powerful than you were before. We had a deal!
PC: I said no. I ain't doing it!
Demon: *sigh* Alright... Look... Do it or you're going drop dead right here and now.
PC: What...? I'm immortal!
Demon: Yea-No... You're immortal because of me. At the drop of a hat, the blink of an eye, or the beat of a heart I can cease the energy that is keeping you alive and you'll drop deader than a door nail. Now that you've exceeded your "natural" life span... My energies are the only thing keeping you alive.
PC: That wasn't a part of our deal! You tricked me!
Demon: Ya know... You REALLY should've read the fine print on that contract...
PC: EFF!

Lt Gargoyle wrote:i do not know if its against the rules, but why would a mage want to become a juicer? he/she would have magic at his beck and call.

I could see some of the necromancers who create the Murder Wraiths potentially desiring to become a juicer Those things end up a lot tougher than a Master Vampire, which they might otherwise become if they have access to that Mystic Russia ritual.

Ignoring the route to immortality, they might covet the advanced power and stuff. Mages are just as vulnerable to feeling weak, wanting the thrill of speed and strength, as anyone else. May as well ask why a Cyber-Knight became a Dragon Juicer, but it happened (though I don't understand why it made him lose his Psi-sword).

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I would not allow a juicer to become a mage because i believe it takes a few years of apprenticeship any type of magic OCC or years of trial and error on ones own. I don't see a juicer sitting still long enough to manage learning magic.

In concept I agree but not all OCCs have year requirements, the original changing OCC rules Palladium had only required getting enough XP to reach level 3 in a magic OCC to reach level 1 in it.

cornholioprime wrote:IF the character was a Mage first and later on became a Juicer. The time factor is simply far too great to consider trying to do it the other way around (even for creatures like True Atlanteans and Elves).

I thought I remembered reading something like Atlantean juicers surviving a couple decades. That should be enough to learn and get to a decent level in a magic OCC.

enhancer wrote:Finally, you have the problem with the Bio-Comp harness:
http://palladiumbooks.com/index.php/res ... questions-
The cutting room floor says this:
11. Is the juicer conversion considered cybernetic (for magic purposes)?
Answer: Yes, Juicer Conversion is considered cybernetic for magic purposes. It counts as 2 implants (the Bio Comp and internal IRMSS) and as such halves all magic ability. The same also applies to psionic ability except for those Juicer systems designed to augment psionic ability.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The Juicer Bio-Comps count as 2 bionic implants.

Just to clarify: does it count as 2 bionic implants, or 2 cybernetic implants? I thought bionics were more invasive and debilitating than cybernetics. Like in HU you could get 3 cybernetics implants but only 1 bionic limb otherwise it harms powers.

Johnathan wrote:The Damned Immortal can be found in Mystic China.

Regarding that, these guys lose their powers if their Infernal master chooses to take them away, but the book didn't make clear to me what would happen if the Infernal master died, or if they could get a 2nd master to empower them so that they could remain alive while betraying the first master, or if their Master become a Reformed Demon.

Tor wrote:

Johnathan wrote:The Damned Immortal can be found in Mystic China.

Regarding that, these guys lose their powers if their Infernal master chooses to take them away, but the book didn't make clear to me what would happen if the Infernal master died, or if they could get a 2nd master to empower them so that they could remain alive while betraying the first master, or if their Master become a Reformed Demon.

Losing all powers, shriviling up and dying isn't clear enough for you?

enhancer wrote:

Johnathan wrote:My guess, as to the reason behind why this isn't done, is because it's broken, honestly. Otherwise, every "infernal, dark god and powerful supernatural being", to quote the book would have veritable armies of immortals under their sway. However, the description also states that these beings look for powerful candidates for this deal. Obviously, that doesn't qualify everyone...

Maybe every infernal, dark god and supernatural being can, but only in N&SS universe. There might not be that many(Steve, Demon Lord of all Pennsylvania). I think it's funny the say powerful candidates, surely if you were that powerful you wouldn't be that interested. More like stupid and evil enough candidates. "So Steve, you are telling me I get to be super strong an immortal? What's the Catch?" "Oh nothing really, I just can take control of you when I want to and I own your very life essence. "What?" "Oh nothing, just sign here" "Okay, as a nether demon you must be trustworthy!"

You seem to have missed the aspect of Damned Immortals that ought to be quite upfront, they undergo a process of transformation into a demon themselves and after centuries of servitude and growing connection to their master they become full demons and no longer of value. Nearly all of those false paths to immortality aren't really immortal, they have centuries maybe even millenia available but will end up dying or ceasing to be as their path transforms them into something unrelated to the being they started as.

Really, I didn't expect the conversation to take this turn... But... As I said before, if a Splugorth Intelligence felt like turning a short-lived, probably slave-race, Maxi-Juicer into a loyal "minion", this would be a way for the Intelligence to do it. They would have a super-juicer that's completely loyal to them.

The Beast wrote:

Tor wrote:

Johnathan wrote:The Damned Immortal can be found in Mystic China.

Regarding that, these guys lose their powers if their Infernal master chooses to take them away, but the book didn't make clear to me what would happen if the Infernal master died, or if they could get a 2nd master to empower them so that they could remain alive while betraying the first master, or if their Master become a Reformed Demon.

Losing all powers, shriviling up and dying isn't clear enough for you?

You're missing the point, the book only said that happens if they disobey their master and the source of power is willingly withdrawn.

It doesn't say if the power is withdrawn if the master just kicks it or becomes not-so-Demonic. Nor does it say if the shriveling can be prevented by taking on a 2nd master prior to the 1st withdrawing.

For some reason I read the title and was thinking this is a about a juicer who decided to go to the bar in a magic district, got himself drunk, and one thing led to another like some kind of really bad New Vegas vacation trip. And that is one heck of a feat: Getting a juicer drunk has to be the work of a god or an avatar of a god.

Conclusion and probably final statement on the thread:

A Juicer can have magic. However, it would have to the genetically created juicer (gene-splicer equivalent) or the aforementioned Maxi-Killer combo. The symbiote doesn't destroy magic abilities at all and for all intents and purposes is... Just another symbiote.

Tor wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Tor wrote:

Johnathan wrote:The Damned Immortal can be found in Mystic China.

Regarding that, these guys lose their powers if their Infernal master chooses to take them away, but the book didn't make clear to me what would happen if the Infernal master died, or if they could get a 2nd master to empower them so that they could remain alive while betraying the first master, or if their Master become a Reformed Demon.

Losing all powers, shriviling up and dying isn't clear enough for you?

You're missing the point, the book only said that happens if they disobey their master and the source of power is willingly withdrawn.

It doesn't say if the power is withdrawn if the master just kicks it or becomes not-so-Demonic. Nor does it say if the shriveling can be prevented by taking on a 2nd master prior to the 1st withdrawing.

Actually no, the part I was mentioning is from the last sentence on Damned Imortals on page 125 of MC. It says specificlly that if the master dies, so do any DIs it created.

Now then, you're saying that the DIs die if the master removes their power as well. I don't see that particular passage, however, it seems plausable that the infernal can remove their own power.

Having said that, it seems that if the infernal tries to reform and become human, it would seem to be in the DIs best interest to prevent them from doing that (by having them return to their old ways of course). IMO they'd lose their powers once the infernal was no longer able to empower them, and as pointed out above, it seems any time the DIs have their powers removed they die.

Now if the DIs can swap masters, IMO their powers would have to start over at level 1 due to having a new contract from a new being. Any skills and such though would remain frozen until the new contract reached where the old contract ended. But all this is subject to GM's descresion as there is no ruling one way or another.

Being that DIs eventually take the shape of their master (as opposed to generically the shape of any ol' infernal) I think the part about starting over makes sense. Or if not totally over, at least subtracting a certain number of years from their progress due to the change.

There is a statement in DIs regarding how they'll simply die if they're past their normal lifespan and the master withdraws.