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I made an NPC character about a year ago; a superhuman code named, Shattershot. His powers included Swarm Selves and Self Explosion. For all intents and purposes, he was a one-manned demolitions team. I managed to avoid one particularly thorny issue with this power combination until just last night however. That thorny issue is this: What would happen if one of his tiny swarm selves used his critical mass explosion? Is there a chance he as a whole could lose his self-explosion power? Or is that effectively negated by the nature or Swarm Selves? Somewhere in between? And would that tiny self(and the 5 hit points associated with it) be effectively inaccessible for 4d6 weeks, or would it 'heal' normally?

For right now, I'm avoiding the issue by making his critical mass explosion incompatible with swarm selves. But the subject came up, and I don't have a satisfactory answer to give.

he's out the five points if that's the cost of the power. If he can heal after blowing up like that, he should be able to get it back. It's like losing a pinky or toe.
CES

Looonatic wrote:I made an NPC character about a year ago; a superhuman code named, Shattershot. His powers included Swarm Selves and Self Explosion. For all intents and purposes, he was a one-manned demolitions team. I managed to avoid one particularly thorny issue with this power combination until just last night however. That thorny issue is this: What would happen if one of his tiny swarm selves used his critical mass explosion? Is there a chance he as a whole could lose his self-explosion power? Or is that effectively negated by the nature or Swarm Selves? Somewhere in between? And would that tiny self(and the 5 hit points associated with it) be effectively inaccessible for 4d6 weeks, or would it 'heal' normally?

For right now, I'm avoiding the issue by making his critical mass explosion incompatible with swarm selves. But the subject came up, and I don't have a satisfactory answer to give.

I would say the tiny swarm self lacks sufficient mass to cause the Critical mass explosion. I would rule it only works when in full form.

just imagine the look as his opponent's face as he starts to glow towards the Critical Mass Explosion as his swarm selves return to him.

Or as they all swarm 1 opponent and explode.

It should operate however other powers normally do. Are Swarm Selves able to use things like Energy Expulsion at full power? If so, figure it should be the same.

Makes me wonder: what happens if someone with Swarm Self used the APS Fire explosion thing? Or does SS count as an APS that prevents it?

Tor wrote:It should operate however other powers normally do. Are Swarm Selves able to use things like Energy Expulsion at full power? If so, figure it should be the same.

Makes me wonder: what happens if someone with Swarm Self used the APS Fire explosion thing? Or does SS count as an APS that prevents it?

Normally, all powers operate, but at one quarter normal range, speed and/or damage. For example, Self-explosion's standard(non-critical) damage is 4d6x10 damage. So each tiny swarm self could explode for 1d6x10 damage. If there are 20 swarm selves, well.... that adds up to a pretty massive boom, or a decent sustained rate of individual booms while other selves re-form.

As for APS compatibility, I would say yes, that it counts as an APS. If multiple selves counts, then so should swarm selves.

Eh just being technical I guess, I've always hated the rule against stacking APS stuff (except obvious opposites like ice/fire). Besides which: only the creator of multiple selves is using that power, his clones definitely aren't, so they can use other ones Not sure how that works with Swarm though since I don't know if that has the same master/copies distinction or if it's an equal mass like the Nightbane talent.

Whatever balance issues exist here would exist with any other power though. Someone who could shoot a laser doing 4D6 with 20 copies doing 1d6 could be doing 2d6x10. It's inherent in the 1/4 fraction versus 4+ copies contrast. Although the issue of how many attacks the swarm has to use it with comes up.

Tor wrote:Eh just being technical I guess, I've always hated the rule against stacking APS stuff (except obvious opposites like ice/fire). Besides which: only the creator of multiple selves is using that power, his clones definitely aren't, so they can use other ones Not sure how that works with Swarm though since I don't know if that has the same master/copies distinction or if it's an equal mass like the Nightbane talent.

Whatever balance issues exist here would exist with any other power though. Someone who could shoot a laser doing 4D6 with 20 copies doing 1d6 could be doing 2d6x10. It's inherent in the 1/4 fraction versus 4+ copies contrast. Although the issue of how many attacks the swarm has to use it with comes up.

AFAIK to got 20 copies you need 100 Hit Points.

Actually- going by the descriptions of those two powers RAW, you would not be able to use the Explode Self 4d6x10 ability while seperated, as each swarm body only has two melee actions and that attack requires the expenditure of 3 melee actions, meaning the swarm selves cannot individually achieve enough explosive force to go off as 1d6x10 "little booms". So that's another issue with this power combo.

fbdaury wrote:Actually- going by the descriptions of those two powers RAW, you would not be able to use the Explode Self 4d6x10 ability while seperated, as each swarm body only has two melee actions and that attack requires the expenditure of 3 melee actions, meaning the swarm selves cannot individually achieve enough explosive force to go off as 1d6x10 "little booms". So that's another issue with this power combo.

That is easily resolved though.
They spend 2 attacks this melee and the 3rd attack of concentration would be the 1st attack of the next melee.

Sir_Spirit wrote:AFAIK to got 20 copies you need 100 Hit Points.

No problem, I know an OCC that allows you to get infinite hit points.

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:

fbdaury wrote:Actually- going by the descriptions of those two powers RAW, you would not be able to use the Explode Self 4d6x10 ability while seperated, as each swarm body only has two melee actions and that attack requires the expenditure of 3 melee actions, meaning the swarm selves cannot individually achieve enough explosive force to go off as 1d6x10 "little booms". So that's another issue with this power combo.

That is easily resolved though.
They spend 2 attacks this melee and the 3rd attack of concentration would be the 1st attack of the next melee.

That or find some means of imbuing the selves with extra attacks (mass radius fleet feet perhaps?)

Tor wrote:

Sir_Spirit wrote:AFAIK to got 20 copies you need 100 Hit Points.

No problem, I know an OCC that allows you to get infinite hit points.

Superheroes don't have OCCs.

Implying HU is the only system with superheroes =/

Pretty sure HU has notes about incorporating OCCs in there somewhere. Most of the power categories or education tables function as them in some way.

Tor wrote:Implying HU is the only system with superheroes =/

Pretty sure HU has notes about incorporating OCCs in there somewhere. Most of the power categories or education tables function as them in some way.

Well this IS the HU board....so the general assumption might be that we are using, oooohhh the HU rules for it perhaps? That said yes, there are optional rules for converting other lines into HU and HU to the other lines.

I'm confused at why rules in PB get labelled optional when all rules are optional. 'More optional' maybe?

Tor wrote:I'm confused at why rules in PB get labelled optional when all rules are optional. 'More optional' maybe?

How about some rules are part of the base setting (power catigories, skill packages etc) and some are optional in that setting (occ's in HU for example). They are avalible IF the GM activily adds them, as oposed to being avalible unless the GM activley removes them.

eliakon wrote:avalible IF the GM activily adds them, as oposed to being avalible unless the GM activley removes them.

Which of these would the Mega-Hero be?

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:avalible IF the GM activily adds them, as oposed to being avalible unless the GM activley removes them.

Which of these would the Mega-Hero be?

That would be, activily add. Since its listed as optional. Its not as optional as say....a Nightbane or a Techno-Wizard, but its still a 'if this option exists' in the lable thing.

Oyyyy well, setting assumptions aside, superheroes in PB do sometimes have OCCs. Especially including Skraypers, which is also an HU setting and has OCCs in it.

Tor wrote:Oyyyy well, setting assumptions aside, superheroes in PB do sometimes have OCCs. Especially including Skraypers, which is also an HU setting and has OCCs in it.

So then people in Skraypers would have OCCs. That does not instantly mean that everyone has them, since none of the OTHER books have it. Of course Skryapers was written for RIFTS, and then has 'this can be run in HU' so its actually more of a conversion book than an HU book. Any more than MiO 'proves' that you can play a juicer in ATB

eliakon wrote:That does not instantly mean that everyone has them

I never said everyone had an OCC. I mentioned 'knowing an OCC' and you interjected claiming heroes don't have'm, which we know is wrong. We know that HU isn't based around an OCC system and uses skill packages, yeah.

Oddly enough, N&SS does both.

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:That does not instantly mean that everyone has them

I never said everyone had an OCC. I mentioned 'knowing an OCC' and you interjected claiming heroes don't have'm, which we know is wrong. We know that HU isn't based around an OCC system and uses skill packages, yeah.

Oddly enough, N&SS does both.

Acutually, HU DOESNT have OCCs. Skraypers (A rifts dimension book) has them, its just designed to be compatable with HU (its NOT a dual line source book like MiO)

While it is prefaced with the 'Rifts Dimension Book' label, that's mostly just for marketing purposes, to tap into the Rifts buyers. It's clearly for both.
*On cover: "A sourcebook for Rifts and Heroes Unlimited"
*Inside cover: "Epic adventure for Rifts, Phase World and Heroes Unlimited"
*Bottom: "For Rifts and Heroes Unlimited , Second Edition ERPGs"
*Next: "Based on RPG rules, Rifts, Heroes Unlimitd, the infinite Megaverse.."
*Building Worlds: ".. fit snugly into both the Rifts and Heroes Unlimited world settings"
"As for Heroes Unlimited, well, Skraypers IS a superhero book"
"the contemporary Earth of Heroes Unlimited can be linked to the Skraypers setting in numerous ways (for details, see the section entitled The Heroes Unlimited Connection on using Skraypers as an adventure/world book for Heroes Unlimited)"

Let's note that a Skraypers race (a Bhlaze Alien) is a member of HU's Century Station sourcebook, which makes it pretty clear that the Skraypers planet can either exist in the HU universe or the Phase World universe.

Tor wrote:While it is prefaced with the 'Rifts Dimension Book' label, that's mostly just for marketing purposes, to tap into the Rifts buyers. It's clearly for both.
*On cover: "A sourcebook for Rifts and Heroes Unlimited"
*Inside cover: "Epic adventure for Rifts, Phase World and Heroes Unlimited"
*Bottom: "For Rifts and Heroes Unlimited , Second Edition ERPGs"
*Next: "Based on RPG rules, Rifts, Heroes Unlimitd, the infinite Megaverse.."
*Building Worlds: ".. fit snugly into both the Rifts and Heroes Unlimited world settings"
"As for Heroes Unlimited, well, Skraypers IS a superhero book"
"the contemporary Earth of Heroes Unlimited can be linked to the Skraypers setting in numerous ways (for details, see the section entitled The Heroes Unlimited Connection on using Skraypers as an adventure/world book for Heroes Unlimited)"

Let's note that a Skraypers race (a Bhlaze Alien) is a member of HU's Century Station sourcebook, which makes it pretty clear that the Skraypers planet can either exist in the HU universe or the Phase World universe.

It may have been written with the idea that you can use it for HU its STILL a Rifts Book. The book is not lited in the HU line, and it was written using the Rifts rules not the HU rules (which all protestations to the contrary there are line specific rules) Fluff text does not place a book in a line, what the book is listed as in its title does. Rifts Dimension Book sort of leaves it pretty clear what line it is, where as say MiO which is listed as a TMNT AND Rifts book (and infact creates the precident that dual line books will explicitly state what they are) is in both lines.

And having a race in common proves nothing, Rifts has elves does that make paladium fantasy a part of rifts? They all have humans too.....So splicers and palladium fantasy are source books for each other right?


I guess mainly this comes down to you wanting all the fluff about 'megaversal' to mean every book is part of every other line. I think that the lines are what they are, and you can choose to add stuff from the other lines if it suits you...or not. Its a matter of presumption. I presume that the lines are seperate unless shown or ruled otherwise, you presume they are linked unless shown or ruled otherwise.

It's not listed in the HU line in the Store because Palladium generally is not going to list a product under multiple categories, as that could get confusing. Might be a good idea though, I'll admit.

This is not 'fluff text'. It is a constant reminder, in the book, on the book, that it is also for HU. It is as much for HU as MiO is for AtB too, IMO.

This isn't about 'Megaversal' fluff text. I'm not saying this is part of the Nightbane setting. I'm saying it's part of HU. The Bhlaze in Century Station got there through space travel. Didn't say anything about interdimensional travel.

That means you can definitely access the HU world from the Skraypers world through Space Travel.

This actually makes it more linked to the HU setting than to the Phase World or Rifts Earth settings. Go ahead and find me some Skraypers material used in any of the Rifts books.

Tor wrote:It's not listed in the HU line in the Store because Palladium generally is not going to list a product under multiple categories, as that could get confusing. Might be a good idea though, I'll admit.

This is not 'fluff text'. It is a constant reminder, in the book, on the book, that it is also for HU. It is as much for HU as MiO is for AtB too, IMO.

Thats fine for your opinion, but my point is that MiO specifically and explicatly is labled as a source book for both TMNT and Rifts where as Skryapers is expliciatly listed as a Rifts book. That to me says two things, one that a precident for dual books exists, and two that they made a choice NOT to make this a dual book.

Tor wrote:This isn't about 'Megaversal' fluff text. I'm not saying this is part of the Nightbane setting. I'm saying it's part of HU. The Bhlaze in Century Station got there through space travel. Didn't say anything about interdimensional travel.

That means you can definitely access the HU world from the Skraypers world through Space Travel.

No, all that means is that Bhlaze exist in both universes. They could be in different universes and STILL both universes could have Bhlaze. Or is there some line in any book that says that the Bhlaze are unique to the Skryapers universe? Also by this logic then MD is canon for HU? I mean there is MD powers, MD weapons, MD this and MD that in Skraypers....and since they have to be the same world....oh wait, the Bhlaze in Century Station is SDC.....

Tor wrote:This actually makes it more linked to the HU setting than to the Phase World or Rifts Earth settings. Go ahead and find me some Skraypers material used in any of the Rifts books.

Thats not my burden, The burden here is to prove that what is written on the title of the book is not what the book is really.

eliakon wrote:all that means is that Bhlaze exist in both universes. They could be in different universes and STILL both universes could have Bhlaze. Or is there some line in any book that says that the Bhlaze are unique to the Skryapers universe?

True, they could be in both universes. But having one present in HU and not in Rifts makes that link stronger.

eliakon wrote:by this logic then MD is canon for HU? I mean there is MD powers, MD weapons, MD this and MD that in Skraypers....and since they have to be the same world....oh wait, the Bhlaze in Century Station is SDC.....

Both MDC and SDC stats are given for things in Skraypers. This means it's the GM's option whether or not the setting should be MDC.

eliakon wrote:MiO specifically and explicatly is labled as a source book for both TMNT and Rifts where as Skryapers is expliciatly listed as a Rifts book. The burden here is to prove that what is written on the title of the book is not what the book is really.

If you go on about titles, 'Mutants in Orbit' doesn't include ATB, TMNT or Rifts in the title.

MiO has "an adventure and sourcebook for After the Bomb and Rifts" as a subtitle, just like Skraypers has "a sourcebook for Rifts and Heroes Unlimited" as a subtitle.

The objection you have here is that Skraypers is part of the 'Dimension Book' series (because it takes place in another dimension) and MiO is not (because it takes place around Earth).

Funny enough, if you look inside the front cover of MiO you will see the Heroes Unlimited logo. If you look on the back, the first mention you'll see is "Compatible with HU, TMNT, N&SS, BtS, Robotech, Rifts..."

MiO's clearly very much also related to HU since it includes super powers and mutant animals also exist in the HU setting.