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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

Panomas wrote:Bio-Wizardry is magicial transformation no matter how scientific it sounds.... Am I wrong?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

Daeglan wrote:Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Panomas wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Panomas wrote:Bio-Wizardry is magicial transformation no matter how scientific it sounds.... Am I wrong?

True Atlanteans can be changed into bio-borg/splurgoth juicers as shown in juicer book 11. So it is official that TA are susceptible to bio-wizardry.

Juicer book is ten-and you assuming that the character depicted is in fact an Atlantean-(though I honestly don't know if your right or wrong on this matter)

Have any text to back up your claim I will be looking myself as well...

Thanks-

crystaleye1950 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the manipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic ]or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even FAQs which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be mod'ed by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

Panomas wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

I sighted three sources from the text that point to what your saying; or are do you mean something else? Please Continue?

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Magic tattoos (as per the magic is there just to make them stay).....No.
However, I would lean to let them work if the player was not being a donkey.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

The Beast wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

crystaleye1950 wrote:What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Faceless Dude wrote:Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

Faceless Dude wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Normal tattoos.....there facade before their becoming defiantly can. After their 1st becoming.... up to that game's GM. I would lean toward the facade still able to get tattoos even after their 1st becoming. But if the Player is being a donkey about it, no.
Their morphus.....no.

Magic tattoos (as per T-Men tattoos)...no Nightbane are not not on the list of races that magic tattoos can be applied to. (dumbs the answer down: NB are not human)

Magic tattoos (as per the magic is there just to make them stay).....No.
however, I would lean to let them work if the player was not being a donkey.

Panomas wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even faq which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be modded by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

You may be right-

I am looking now; but for point of discussion: What if an S.D.C. Atlantean wanted to get a Bio-wizard modification and that modification was for supernatural physical attributes; and M.D.C. wouldn't this qualify for a Supernatural Transformation?

What do you think?

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

The Dyval Diabolus's art of bio-wizardry is totally different from the Splurgoth's art of bio-wizardry. Diabolus' art is sheer pure magic but Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is a mix of magic and science!

Dyval Lord Diabolus' Magic Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Dyval Dimension Book 11 page 119 - Diabolus has access to arcane magicks that can alter living flesh, be it S.D.C. or Mega-Damage beings, mortals or immortals. In addition to dark and forgotten magicks, he also uses symbiotes and parasites acquired from Atlantis and his own unique brand of Bio-Wizard magic. The only knowledge Diabolus does not have is scientific genetic engineering. Though he finds the science of genetics interesting, he prefers the quick results of magic. Ironically, he'd like to capture a Gene-Splicer or two and study them as specimens for magical genetic transfiguration as well as to study their brand of science. So far, the elusive beings have always been a step ahead of the Deevil Lord, and a good thing too. Who knows what evil Diabolus could set loose on the Megaverse if he also incorporated the science of the Gene Splicers?

page 120 - Deep within the structure are the magic pools used to transmute the animals into something much more dangerous. These magic baths have properties similar to the Bio-Wizard vats of the Splugorth. In addition to the pools, there are levels where there are hundreds of tubes filled with the magic transforming liquid.

Splurgoth's Magical Science Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Atlantis 106 - Sensitive players may find this strange and often disfiguring biological magic/science disturbing and elect not to include it in their games.

However, bio-wizardry is unique as it combines living organisms with other "living" creatures and/or with machines and magic to empower the living.

Bio-wizard devices, surgery, implants, limbs, parasites, microbes, symbiotes, and magic are all quite common in the cities of the Splugorth's Atlantis.

Bio-wizardry is the magic (a science?) of enslavement (the Splugorth's specialty) and genetic manipulation. It is frequently used to augment, transform, deform, mutilate, and enslave.

Summary

Think of Diabolus' bio-vats as some kind of magic circle where the victim will be changed by magic. Think of Splurgoth's bio-vats as machines using magical energies. Thus I will rule that TAs and Nightbanes can be augumented but not transformed using Splurgoth's bio-vats.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

Magic is totally different from a science using magic energies.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

Magic is totally different from a science using magic energies.

Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Diabolus doesn't use gene-tinkering to transform his experiments, this is why it is magic. There is transformation of his experiments without the need to tinker with the experiments' genes. Totally no difference between Diabolus' magic pools/bio-vats, metamorphosis spells or the Old One circle of elven transformation found in the PF book 2 Old ones complex.

The Splurgoth use a combination of magic and science to tinker with the genes of their experiments. No difference between Splurgoth's gene-tinkering and Gene-Splicers' gene-tinkering even though the Splurgoth use magic to tinker with their experiments' genes.

Ultimately, it is the fact that rifts books 2 atlantis has included the words "science" and "genetic manipulation" in its description of the splurgoth's bio-wizardry which makes it totally possible for True Atlanteans and Nightbanes to be tinkered by the Splurgoth.

There is a reason why the Palladium Writers specifically state that Diabolus do not know gene-technologies. They want to differentiate between Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry.

Why not say Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is one and the same instead of being just "very similar"? Cos the writers want the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry to be a combination of magic and science instead of being just a purely magical process.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

Rifts Dimension Book 14 - "It is an accepted fact the civilizations of the Elder Races were so advanced in the areas of science, technology and magic, that the line between magic and science had been extinguished. Elder Races were said to work miracles and used their technology and magic to explore other galaxies and alien dimensions."

In the area of bio-wizardry, you can say that the Splurgoths are quickly removing the barriers between magic and science in a similar manner to how the Elder Races in the Thundercloud Galaxy has removed the barriers between magic and science.

Which is why Splurgothian bio-wizardry can be used on nightbanes and true atlanteans as it is not a purely magical process.

Panomas wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Like with what SF said, It depends on the specifics.

TA's and a Bio-Wizard tank: not is going to happen cause it's magic.
TA's also do not respond to hero powers that change them.
TA's and gene manipulation.....This is where things get if'y cause if the maipulators use magic to do the manipulation then nada is going to happen. But if they use tech then it is 'plausible'. (plausible: the GM of that game decides she/he wants it or not.)


With say a NB, nothing is going to happen to the NB with both magical transformation and tech changes.

In the area of "let's say":Even if the facade can be changed by tech means, the changes will be erased with cycling through their becoming.

1) Bio-Wizardry is not magic. It is a magical science. There is a difference between magical science and magical spells.

2) TAs are not invulnerable to heroic powers that change them. They are only invulnerable to magic or supernatural transformation
spell or enchantment. Heroic powers found in HU are NOT magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment.

3) Gene Manipulation ... again regardless of whether it is magic or tech, gene manipulation is still a science and not some mere supernatural or magic transformation spell or enchantment.

4) NightBanes - Both descriptions for nightbanes and true atlanteans described them as ..

"Cannot be physically transformed by any means,including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment."

But as argued before, the above are all magical spells or enchantments.. there is nothing scientific at all compared to the science of bio-wizardry and gene manipulation..

furthermore, there is no canon or even faq which states that there is nothing preventing a nightbane or true atlantean from being modified by gene-manipulation and bio-wizardry

lastly, gene manipulation and bio wizardry are not transformations, they are modifications.

so i would house rule that true atlanteans and nightbanes can be modded by gene manipulation and bio wizardry unless proven otherwise..

You may be right-

I am looking now; but for point of discussion: What if an S.D.C. Atlantean wanted to get a Bio-wizard modification and that modification was for supernatural physical attributes; and M.D.C. wouldn't this qualify for a Supernatural Transformation?

What do you think?

Johnathan wrote:

Panomas wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Panomas wrote:Bio-Wizardry is magicial transformation no matter how scientific it sounds.... Am I wrong?

True Atlanteans can be changed into bio-borg/splurgoth juicers as shown in juicer book 11. So it is official that TA are susceptible to bio-wizardry.

Juicer book is ten-and you assuming that the character depicted is in fact an Atlantean-(though I honestly don't know if your right or wrong on this matter)

Have any text to back up your claim I will be looking myself as well...

Thanks-

Though I am unsure of the page number, True Atlantean is a race that is list as being a viable race for the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote. Stating that the candidate would live for approximately 25 years as a Maxi-Killer (Symbiote Juicer).

This was my argument for how a True Atlantean my be, at least partially, susceptible to Bio-Wizardy modifications. However, this would only apply to Symbiotes, parasites and other modifications. This would not apply to transmutations of any kind in my book.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Considering it still uses magic to produce it's effect, and therefore is magical in nature, the immunity still applies. unless you have some proof to the contrary, magic is magic, even if you do distill some of it down to a science.

Diabolus doesn't use gene-tinkering to transform his experiments, this is why it is magic. There is transformation of his experiments without the need to tinker with the experiments' genes. Totally no difference between Diabolus' magic pools/bio-vats, metamorphosis spells or the Old One circle of elven transformation found in the PF book 2 Old ones complex.

The Splurgoth use a combination of magic and science to tinker with the genes of their experiments. No difference between Splurgoth's gene-tinkering and Gene-Splicers' gene-tinkering even though the Splurgoth use magic to tinker with their experiments' genes.

Ultimately, it is the fact that rifts books 2 atlantis has included the words "science" and "genetic manipulation" in its description of the splurgoth's bio-wizardry which makes it totally possible for True Atlanteans and Nightbanes to be tinkered by the Splurgoth.

There is a reason why the Palladium Writers specifically state that Diabolus do not know gene-technologies. They want to differentiate between Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry.

Why not say Diabolus' bio-wizardry and the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is one and the same instead of being just "very similar"? Cos the writers want the Splurgoth's bio-wizardry to be a combination of magic and science instead of being just a purely magical process.

Well, yes, what Diabolus does is in fact different in nature from what the splurgorth do. i'm sure the authors even intended for that to be clear. but nothing indicates that one of them wasn't still magic, in fact, both explicitly use magic, and hence, TA immunity still applies.

Do the dimensional elders use magic or science?

I don't recall where such a group is mentioned. nor am I certain why it would make a difference to this argument.

Rifts Dimension Book 14 - "It is an accepted fact the civilizations of the Elder Races were so advanced in the areas of science, technology and magic, that the line between magic and science had been extinguished. Elder Races were said to work miracles and used their technology and magic to explore other galaxies and alien dimensions."

In the area of bio-wizardry, you can say that the Splurgoths are quickly removing the barriers between magic and science in a similar manner to how the Elder Races in the Thundercloud Galaxy has removed the barriers between magic and science.

Which is why Splurgothian bio-wizardry can be used on nightbanes and true atlanteans as it is not a purely magical process.

So why do you call them the Dimensional elders? the Dimensional threw me off.

and while you could say that, you'd be wrong. nothing indicates that teh splurgorth are even approaching elder levels of ability. and in fact the very discription of bio-wizardy rules it out. it still relies on magic energy to produce an effect, so things immune to magic energy are immune to it.

Faceless Dude wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Faceless Dude wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:What is transformation?

In my opinion, transformation is the total change from one life-form into another. A human into a vampire. A human into stone. A human into a frog. A human into mist.

Putting a True Atlantean or Changeling into the Dunk Tank or on the Gene-Splicer's table isn't really transforming them. Modifying them maybe but it certainly isn't changing a True Atlantean or Changeling into a horse or a dog.

Even a bio-borg is basically the modification of the basic life-form. It is like buying a normal car and upgrading it into super-fast sports car with better engines, wheels, etc. You aren't really changing the car into an air-plane or even a dog.

Now that would be transformation beyond the powers of even the Splurgoth or the Gene-Splicers.

Also on a relevant note.. can nightbanes get tattoos?

Per the Dyval dimension book, putting a True Atlantean into a bio-wizard "dunk tank" dissolves them.

The Dyval Diabolus's art of bio-wizardry is totally different from the Splurgoth's art of bio-wizardry. Diabolus' art is sheer pure magic but Splurgoth's bio-wizardry is a mix of magic and science!

Dyval Lord Diabolus' Magic Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Dyval Dimension Book 11 page 119 - Diabolus has access to arcane magicks that can alter living flesh, be it S.D.C. or Mega-Damage beings, mortals or immortals. In addition to dark and forgotten magicks, he also uses symbiotes and parasites acquired from Atlantis and his own unique brand of Bio-Wizard magic. The only knowledge Diabolus does not have is scientific genetic engineering. Though he finds the science of genetics interesting, he prefers the quick results of magic. Ironically, he'd like to capture a Gene-Splicer or two and study them as specimens for magical genetic transfiguration as well as to study their brand of science. So far, the elusive beings have always been a step ahead of the Deevil Lord, and a good thing too. Who knows what evil Diabolus could set loose on the Megaverse if he also incorporated the science of the Gene Splicers?

page 120 - Deep within the structure are the magic pools used to transmute the animals into something much more dangerous. These magic baths have properties similar to the Bio-Wizard vats of the Splugorth. In addition to the pools, there are levels where there are hundreds of tubes filled with the magic transforming liquid.

Splurgoth's Magical Science Bio-Wizardry

Rifts Atlantis 106 - Sensitive players may find this strange and often disfiguring biological magic/science disturbing and elect not to include it in their games.

However, bio-wizardry is unique as it combines living organisms with other "living" creatures and/or with machines and magic to empower the living.

Bio-wizard devices, surgery, implants, limbs, parasites, microbes, symbiotes, and magic are all quite common in the cities of the Splugorth's Atlantis.

Bio-wizardry is the magic (a science?) of enslavement (the Splugorth's specialty) and genetic manipulation. It is frequently used to augment, transform, deform, mutilate, and enslave.

Summary

Think of Diabolus' bio-vats as some kind of magic circle where the victim will be changed by magic. Think of Splurgoth's bio-vats as machines using magical energies. Thus I will rule that TAs and Nightbanes can be augumented but not transformed using Splurgoth's bio-vats.

whatever gets you the most plusses, I guess

crystaleye1950 wrote:If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Johnathan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

Shark_Force wrote:i don't have rifts atlantis on hand, but i *do* have the book of magic handy right now.

and the book of magic pretty much lists all the stuff that uses the vat on pages 42-43 afaict. in general, most of the grafting stuff doesn't use the tank, as i recall. in fact, i'm fairly certain this is actually mentioned if you dig deep enough into the descriptions in rifts atlantis (though again, i don't have a copy of that handy just now to check...)

Panomas wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Johnathan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

How do you know that a True Atlantean Maxi-Killer Splurgoth Juicer was never dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat in the first place? How do you know being dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat isn't part of the symbiote sealing/permanence process?

This is the key question here. You are assuming that turning a True Atlantean into a Splurgoth Juices doesn't involve dunking the same TA into a splurgoth bio-vat but I am be pretty sure you will never find canon or faq evidence to back up this assumption.

As far as I am concerned, all forms of bio-wizardry involve the recipient being dunked in the bio-tank unless there is evidence to the contrary.

And-(for the sake of argument only) your assumption that all bio-wizardry involves a dunk tank is not supported by any evidence either... Just pointing out its really left to interpitation...

Johnathan wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Not to mention tattoos are a physical/magical transformation.

can nightbanes get tattoos?

Is there anything that strictly says bane are incapable of getting magic tats? No... Not really. However, due to their mystical nature and natural immunity to transformation abilities, I would say that the most they could recieve is six and they would only have access to those tattoos in their facade form. Once they switched over to their Morphus those tattoos would not be accessible. I do not believe there is anything, within canon, to directly support this claim, so you may consider this personal opinion if you so wish.

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Johnathan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:If TAs are immune to bio-wizardry, then they shouldn't be able to be transformed into maxi-killers in the first place. But the fact that TAs are able to be transformed into maxi-killers clearly proves my point that TAs and NBs for that matter can be enhanced by Splurgothian bio-wizardry.

This is what I get for skimming and skipping some posts it seems. I didn't see Jhonathan's mention. Looking it up, it appears JU does settle the debate. True Atlantians can definatly get that and other implants.

Please, allow me a point before my intent becomes miscontrued for something that it wasn't intended for. My argument, referencing the Maxi-Inducer Symbiote, was to show that True Atlanteans are capable of being augmented through the use of Symbiotes, parasites and "other modifications" of Bio-Wizardry. "Other Modifications" meaning things like transplanting an Eye of Eylor to replace one or both of their original eyes, attaching an arm/leg to replace an appendage that was destroyed, or having armor grafted to their bodies (I use the grafted armor as an example because underneath all that grafted armor is still a soft, squishy Atlantean...). However, the Transmutation process, that actually involves dunking the recipient into a bio-vat, would not work on a True Atlantean, in my opinion. Which, coincidently, seems to be backed by canon, referencing a previous post about bio-vats dissolving TAs.

So, TAs can accept Symbiotes (Maxi-Killer example) and by proxy be affecting by parasites (except probably the Transmuters... Those are arguable). As well as be modified by bio-wizardry in much the same manner they can be modified through cybernetics or bio-systems (both viable options for TAs)... It's just the Transmutation process that wouldn't work on them. So, no changing their size, augmenting their attributes through tansmutation, turning them into MDC beings through transmutation (why bother when tattoo magic is so much more entertaining...?), etc.

Of course, as always, it's your game so run however you want. These are just my observations that follow canon.

How do you know that a True Atlantean Maxi-Killer Splurgoth Juicer was never dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat in the first place? How do you know being dunked in a splurgoth bio-vat isn't part of the symbiote sealing/permanence process?

This is the key question here. You are assuming that turning a True Atlantean into a Splurgoth Juices doesn't involve dunking the same TA into a splurgoth bio-vat but I am be pretty sure you will never find canon or faq evidence to back up this assumption.

As far as I am concerned, all forms of bio-wizardry involve the recipient being dunked in the bio-tank unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Giant2005 wrote:With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

Mercdog wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

The 'Immune to transformation' isn't necessarily the same. With TAs, IMO, it's about having an inviolate form that retains its shape and nature despite outside forces. With the nightbane, I think it has more to do with them being natural shape shifters able to alter themselves to their favored 'natural' form at will.

Good find, BTW.

Giant2005 wrote:With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

Panomas wrote:

crystaleye1950 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:With respect to the Nightbane at least, this is all covered in the books.
Page 143 of NB WB1 clearly states that NB are incapable of using Magic Tattoos and are also incapable of receiving Bio-Wizard modifications. Cosnidering their "Immune to Transformation" power is the same as the True Atlantean one, I assume the inability to receive Bio-Wiard mods also applies to the True Atleanteans.

Yes this is the evidence I am looking for, thank you so much. So it seems that nightbanes are incapable of using magic tattoos and bio-wizard mods.

But there is still no evidence pointing out that TAs are incapable of receiving bio-wizard mods. In fact, world book 10 juicer shows TAs are capable of using bio-wizard implants.

Also it says on that particular page that although the facade and morphus of NBs are incapable of being modified by bio-wizard mods, Nazca runes, and transformation rituals or circles, it didn't say anything about latent NBs being incapable of being modified by bio-wizard mods.

So a latent NB who hasn't "Become" into a nightbane can very well be modified by bio-wizard mods and Nazca runes and transformation rituals/circles and other goodies of Rifts. Even Diabolus' bio-vats can be applied to a latent NB. The only thing latent NBs can't receive are magic tattoos.

As proof of this, NB WB1 says that NBs retain their cybernetic limbs although these cybernetic limbs disappear when NBs change into their morphus. Also although other cybernetic implants are expelled out of the body by Morphus transformation, you can't say the same for Bio-Wizard implants and especially Bio-Wizard transmutations as bio-wizardry are all completely "natural" and become part of the NB's body.

It is entirely possible for a latent NB to be dunked in a bio-vat, had his stats enhanced and then "Become" a fully-fledged NB a few years down the road without losing his bio-wizard transmutation bonuses.

I wonder how bio-wizardry implants and gene-splicer manipulation of a latent NB's genes would affect his Becoming and Morphus?

Except that Nightbane don't exsist on Rifts earth (where bio-wizardry does) its an alternate reality-

You may of coarse knock yourelf out!!-- nice chatting with you sir-

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm sort of curious where the idea that bio-wizardy is a magical science or that it being a "science" would even matter comes from.

Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, page 106, first sentence of the first complete paragraph on the right hand side under the Bio-wizardry section.

True, but that dosn't quite address my point. It wasn't so much "is bio-wizardy a magical science" (And you'll note, the line you cite as a question mark by science, indicating it may not be), but that even if it IS a magical science, it would have no bearing on immunity to magical transformations as it's still magic.

crystaleye1950 wrote:the "normal scope of bio-wizardry" does not involve the molding of one life-form into another completely different form of life.

This also clearly shows that splynn's "normal scope of bio-wizardry" is totally different from Diabolus' brand of bio-wizardry.

Thus TAs are able to be modified by all forms of splynn's bio-wizardry including transmutations in a splynn's bio-vat!

Mercdog wrote:IIRC magic tattoos only work on non-supernatural humans (to include sub-races of humans like TAs and ogres) and the dragons that created tattoo magic.

WB21 Page 107 wrote:A note concerning human mutants and Tattoo Magic: It should be noted that most human mutants cannot utilize Tattoo Magic. This includes humans with supernatural level abilities, such as those listed in Skraypers™ and Heroes Unlimited™. However, the human variants from the Skraypers environment who do not have superpowers can use Tattoo Magic and may become T-Men (not that this technology is known to those people, so only victims sold into slavery to the Splugorth are viable candidates). Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos. Examples of this include the Neo-Humans and Amazons from South America and The Corrupt from the Magic Zone. Remember, only humans, True Atlanteans and other human variants, Chiang-Ku, Ogres, and, to a lesser degree, Elves, can receive magic tattoos.

humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos

Tor wrote:

humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos

This is false, because Undead Slayers are stated to be considered supernatural creatures, yet can continue to receive magical tattoos. It's a pure contradiction.