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PPE can sometimes be hard to come by, but when you do have a surplus (on a ley line or absorbing PPE from the unwashed masses or whatever) it's good to have a way to use this surplus to prepare for the future.

What are some of the things you guys like to do when you've got lots of PPE to spare?

Unless I have a specific need, I usually attempt the following (in order of priority):

1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

2. Talismans of frequently used spells (invisibility:sup, time slip, flight, defensive spells, sub-part accel for charging, charge weapon, etc) so that I don't need to advertise that I'm a mage by casting out loud. Also handy to have medium level spells prepared so I can still cast them in a single action (i.e. time slip, power weapon, energize spell).

3. Scrolls of expensive spells that I like to have ready: dimensional portal, resurrection, talisman, dimensional envelope, time hole, teleport:superior or time warp:space and time, etc.

4. Dimensional pockets for keeping all my stuff. I normally carry a briefcase that is filled with file folders. Each file folder is labeled and has a single dimensional pocket in it. Each pocket can hold more file folders with dimensional pockets in them. You can nest your folders as deeply as you want, but it's important to keep track of where you put stuff otherwise you'll spend hours looking through hundreds/thousands of pockets for that thing you know you have somewhere. This is why I always keep a computer handy and take the computer operation skill so I can keep a database of where I put all my stuff. I also am extremely careful to never let a dimensional pocket expire with something in it (never got a ruling from a GM on what happens to stuff in a pocket when the pocket expires...don't want to test my luck).

5. Use Mend the Broken to fix anything that needs fixing.

If I've covered 1-5 above and still have time and PPE to spare, then I start cranking out Talismans, Amulets, and sometimes scrolls for trading or selling. Maybe Fire Globes if I have an interested buyer ready.

--flatline

flatline wrote:1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Necrite wrote:

flatline wrote:1. Talisman PPE batteries: I usually carry around a deck of cards with each card a PPE battery. 54 cards (2 jokers plus 13 or each suit) with 30 PPE each is 1620PPE. If you cut a thumb-width gap in the side of the box, you can touch all 54 cards at the same time.

Clever, but I'd use a tarot rather than a conventional deck of cards. According to Wikipedia, most tarots have 78 cards (bigger pool of PPE), and to me, it seems more thematically appropriate.

Use whatever you like as long as you can easily access 1000 PPE at one time (for dimensional portal). I chose playing cards because the deck is pocket size. The only tarot decks I've seen were probably 4x6 which is too large to unobtrusively stash anywhere, but they probably also come in smaller sizes.

In high power campaigns, I've had two or three dozen such decks on hand. I'd keep the full ones in one dimensional pocket, the completely empty ones in a second dimensional pocket, and the partially used ones in a third dimensional pocket.

I experimented at one point with wood chips that I enchanted with Iron Wood to make them more durable, but they took more space and it wasn't as easy to touch enough at the same time to reach my benchmark 1000PPE. I decided that while playing cards were easily destroyed, they were only vulnerable when I was actually using them since nothing could hurt them inside my dimensional pockets.

--flatline

Isn't paper just, ultimately, a form of wood?

If you could get someone to apply silver runes to them, they would be indestructible.

GlitterKnight wrote:If you could get someone to apply silver runes to them, they would be indestructible.

54 silver runes? Sounds expensive...

Necrite wrote:

GlitterKnight wrote:If you could get someone to apply silver runes to them, they would be indestructible.

54 silver runes? Sounds expensive...

Why would silver runes make something invulnerable? My knowledge of magic is limited at best so I've probably missed many tidbits of knowledge... anyone care to share a book and page number so that I can increase my knowledge base?

6. Being a responsible Practitioner of Magic and using your P.P.E. sparingly.

Slight001 wrote:Why would silver runes make something invulnerable? My knowledge of magic is limited at best so I've probably missed many tidbits of knowledge... anyone care to share a book and page number so that I can increase my knowledge base?

Rune Magic (common on Palladium World but Practically Unheard of on Rifts Earth--see Dark Conversions) can be used to emblazon certain runes on silver pages and infused with P.P.E.. This makes them completely indestructible. They will burn but never extinguish and cannot be cut or torn. This is covered in some more detail in Palladium Fantasy Core Rule Book, 2nd Edition within the Diabolist O.C.C. write up.

Akashic Soldier wrote:6. Being a responsible Practitioner of Magic and using your P.P.E. sparingly.

Slight001 wrote:Why would silver runes make something invulnerable? My knowledge of magic is limited at best so I've probably missed many tidbits of knowledge... anyone care to share a book and page number so that I can increase my knowledge base?

Rune Magic (common on Palladium World but Practically Unheard of on Rifts Earth--see Dark Conversions) can be used to emblazon certain runes on silver pages and infused with P.P.E.. This makes them completely indestructible. They will burn but never extinguish and cannot be cut or torn. This is covered in some more detail in Palladium Fantasy Core Rule Book, 2nd Edition within the Diabolist O.C.C. write up.

Rune Magic is a closely guarded secret in Rifts earth. The Splugorth specifically keep it that way. So I don't think finding someone who can do Rune magic will be all that possible.

Daeglan wrote:Rune Magic is a closely guarded secret in Rifts earth. The Splugorth specifically keep it that way. So I don't think finding someone who can do Rune magic will be all that possible.

Diabolism isn't Rune Magic, though the two are related.

Necrite wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Rune Magic is a closely guarded secret in Rifts earth. The Splugorth specifically keep it that way. So I don't think finding someone who can do Rune magic will be all that possible.

Diabolism isn't Rune Magic, though the two are related.

Yes it is. It is a form of rune magic and the runes used in it are what is left over from the Elf and Dwarf War and those guys used it to produce full-blown rune weapons!
(Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition; Diabolist O.C.C.)

That said, I agree... rune magic is practically unknown on Rifts Earth and should NOT be made readily available willy-nilly. As far as I know the only people who 'officially' have knowledge of the runes that are common place on Rifts Earth are Warlocks and their knowledge is extremely limited to... 4 to 8 specific runes? (if I recall correctly) and all these allow them to do is read them and write them (and thereby make the paper -- in theory). (Rifts Conversion Book 1, revised)

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Necrite wrote:Diabolism isn't Rune Magic, though the two are related.

Yes it is. It is a form of rune magic and the runes used in it are what is left over from the Elf and Dwarf War and those guys used it to produce full-blown rune weapons!
(Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition; Diabolist O.C.C.)

Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition, pp 117-8 wrote:
Once the greatest of all magicks, the secrets of rune magic are forever lost.

Over the millennia, the few remaining secrets of rune magic have been systematically destroyed and are believed to be lost forever.

Many Diabolists dream of the day they can unlock the ancient secrets of these magic symbols and become the new masters of rune magic. However, it seems apparent that its secrets are not concealed in the letters and symbols of the rune alphabet; literally hundreds of thousands of people of all races have tried to unravel their secrets without success for thousands of years.

Knowing the rune alphabet no more makes you a practitioner of rune magic than recognizing Cyrillic letters makes you fluent in Russian. Diabolists are NOT rune mages.

I just don't see a need for making indestructible PPE batteries. Creating 54 PPE batteries is less than a day's work and thanks to dimensional pockets, it's very rare to have them damaged or destroyed.

--flatline

Necrite wrote:Knowing the rune alphabet no more makes you a practitioner of rune magic than recognizing Cyrillic letters makes you fluent in Russian. Diabolists are NOT rune mages.

This is VERY, VERY true!
I agree 100%

I just wanted people to understand that it is the same alphabet and the same magic, they just don't know what they're doing with it and presumably the Splugorth do. Likewise, I would assume that if a Splugorth or High Lord accidentally saw one of the runes written down anywhere that they would move the stars to cover it up, hunt down the scribe, and either enslave or disembowel them. I believe the exact quote from WB1 Atlantis is "without regard for the cost" but I am paraphrasing.

A huge deal if you consider the fact that Lord Splynncryth is primary a driven by profit and he is willing to throw away any amount of money and sacrifice anyone to make sure no one else has knowledge of Rune Magic. Fun adventure that one; you see a letter, write it down somewhere... and then all of a sudden the entire Splugorth empire is chasing you across the megaverse to kill you and you don't even know why!

flatline wrote:I just don't see a need for making indestructible PPE batteries. Creating 54 PPE batteries is less than a day's work and thanks to dimensional pockets, it's very rare to have them damaged or destroyed.

--flatline

They're cumbersome and I don't believe you can carry more than three at a time for big ones and five for small ones. It's in the write up for the Nazca Line stuff in South America 1 or 2?

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:I just don't see a need for making indestructible PPE batteries. Creating 54 PPE batteries is less than a day's work and thanks to dimensional pockets, it's very rare to have them damaged or destroyed.

--flatline

They're cumbersome and I don't believe you can carry more than three at a time for big ones and five for small ones. It's in the write up for the Nazca Line stuff in South America 1 or 2?

I suspect we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the PPE batteries you can make with the Talisman spell.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:I just don't see a need for making indestructible PPE batteries. Creating 54 PPE batteries is less than a day's work and thanks to dimensional pockets, it's very rare to have them damaged or destroyed.

--flatline

They're cumbersome and I don't believe you can carry more than three at a time for big ones and five for small ones. It's in the write up for the Nazca Line stuff in South America 1 or 2?

I suspect we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the PPE batteries you can make with the Talisman spell.

--flatline

I am know you are. I am foggy but I distinctly recall it being mentioned (look for the Rune Warrior its round there somewhere) that you cannot carry more than 3 on your at a time if they are large (50 P.P.E. stored or more) or five if they are small (can't recall the number for the small ones). You can like carry them in vehicles and such. Its just to hold a certain amount of P.P.E. things need to be a certain size. I think amulets, its like... 10? or something max. Its been a while honestly so I don't exactly recall. I also remember that you cannot recharge a depleted battery back to full. Like, if it had 50 max, when you recharge it you can only recharge them to 30 after their initial use.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:I just don't see a need for making indestructible PPE batteries. Creating 54 PPE batteries is less than a day's work and thanks to dimensional pockets, it's very rare to have them damaged or destroyed.

--flatline

They're cumbersome and I don't believe you can carry more than three at a time for big ones and five for small ones. It's in the write up for the Nazca Line stuff in South America 1 or 2?

I suspect we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the PPE batteries you can make with the Talisman spell.

--flatline

I am know you are. I am foggy but I distinctly recall it being mentioned (look for the Rune Warrior its round there somewhere) that you cannot carry more than 3 on your at a time if they are large (50 P.P.E. stored or more) or five if they are small (can't recall the number for the small ones). You can like carry them in vehicles and such. Its just to hold a certain amount of P.P.E. things need to be a certain size. I think amulets, its like... 10? or something max. Its been a while honestly so I don't exactly recall. I also remember that you cannot recharge a depleted battery back to full. Like, if it had 50 max, when you recharge it you can only recharge them to 30 after their initial use.

Rune Warrior is SA2. I can't find anything in that area (Last thing before RW is the Line Maker, next thing after is the description of Nazca magic), or anything that you could have mistaken for it. A quick scan doesn't turn up anything about the Talisman spell, but it was a VERY quick scan, so I could have easily missed it.

According to the Rifts Main Book, PFRPG Main Book, and Rifts Book of Magic, the Talisman spell costs 500 PPE and creates a PPE battery with 50 PPE stored in it. After it is depleted, the user can spend 60 PPE to recharge it with 30 PPE, which is its capacity after the original creation. None of the three books I listed give a limitation on its use. If there is one, I don't know where it is.

Necrite wrote:According to the Rifts Main Book, PFRPG Main Book, and Rifts Book of Magic, the Talisman spell costs 500 PPE and creates a PPE battery with 50 PPE stored in it. After it is depleted, the user can spend 60 PPE to recharge it with 30 PPE, which is its capacity after the original creation. None of the three books I listed give a limitation on its use. If there is one, I don't know where it is.

Thanks for looking but I am sure there is something in there. How else would I know? I don't even own Rifts Main Book and what I just said was remarkably close to what you just said.

probably this
2. P.P.E.: Some of the patterns drawn on the skin of the rune
warriors allow the characters to store magical energy and
quickly regain it. P.P.E.: P.E.x5 + 10. Add I 0 P.P.E. per level of
experience. Unlike mages, however, the rune warriors cannot
draw on ley lines, living beings or other sources for additional
power; they are restricted to their own personal P.P.E. However,
their P.P.E. recovery is linked to ley lines; used P.P.E. is re-gained at the rate of 6 points per hour normally, I 0 per hour if
within a mile ( 1.6 km) of a ley line, and 15 per hour if within a
mile from a nexus point.

Daeglan wrote:probably this
2. P.P.E.: Some of the patterns drawn on the skin of the rune
warriors allow the characters to store magical energy and
quickly regain it. P.P.E.: P.E.x5 + 10. Add I 0 P.P.E. per level of
experience. Unlike mages, however, the rune warriors cannot
draw on ley lines, living beings or other sources for additional
power; they are restricted to their own personal P.P.E. However,
their P.P.E. recovery is linked to ley lines; used P.P.E. is re-gained at the rate of 6 points per hour normally, I 0 per hour if
within a mile ( 1.6 km) of a ley line, and 15 per hour if within a
mile from a nexus point.

Thank you Daeglan but that isnt it. It isnt in the Rune Warrior O.C.C. its just around there in the book (because I remember seeing the picture). It is likely in the magic section. That said, when I get my book back from my friend (this Saturday?) I will look it up for you guys. Sorry for not being clearer.

Found it.
Energy Jar
Drawing Description: An intricate interlacing geometric pat-tern, typically drawn or painted on a jar or drinking vessel.
Time to Draw: 5 minutes (20 melee rounds).
P.P.E. Cost: 20
Can only be drawn at a ley line or nexus point. The pattern
acts as an energy matrix which can store 2D6 P.P.E. per level of
the caster inside the container. This energy can be kept inside the
container until needed, but it is completely used up whenever the
energy is released, whether the character wants to use it all or
not. The energy can be used by any practitioner of magic. The
container has to be at least the size of a canteen; a mage could
expect to carry no more than 4-6 of these containers (in addition
to other equipment) without being laden down and cumbersome.
If the character has seven or more containers, the following pen-alties apply: reduce speed by 10% and initiative and parry and
dodge rolls by two points.
Note: Energy Jars are for sale in the Empire of the Sun and in
areas that trade with the Empire, such as New Babylon. Cost for
these jars is typically 50 to I 00 credits per P.P.E. point stored.

The playing cards are better.

Daeglan wrote:Found it.
Energy Jar
Drawing Description: An intricate interlacing geometric pat-tern, typically drawn or painted on a jar or drinking vessel.
Time to Draw: 5 minutes (20 melee rounds).
P.P.E. Cost: 20
Can only be drawn at a ley line or nexus point. The pattern
acts as an energy matrix which can store 2D6 P.P.E. per level of
the caster inside the container. This energy can be kept inside the
container until needed, but it is completely used up whenever the
energy is released, whether the character wants to use it all or
not. The energy can be used by any practitioner of magic. The
container has to be at least the size of a canteen; a mage could
expect to carry no more than 4-6 of these containers (in addition
to other equipment) without being laden down and cumbersome.
If the character has seven or more containers, the following pen-alties apply: reduce speed by 10% and initiative and parry and
dodge rolls by two points.
Note: Energy Jars are for sale in the Empire of the Sun and in
areas that trade with the Empire, such as New Babylon. Cost for
these jars is typically 50 to I 00 credits per P.P.E. point stored.

The playing cards are better.

Yup, that was it! Thanks Daeglan!

The playing cards?

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Daeglan wrote:Found it.
Energy Jar
Drawing Description: An intricate interlacing geometric pat-tern, typically drawn or painted on a jar or drinking vessel.
Time to Draw: 5 minutes (20 melee rounds).
P.P.E. Cost: 20
Can only be drawn at a ley line or nexus point. The pattern
acts as an energy matrix which can store 2D6 P.P.E. per level of
the caster inside the container. This energy can be kept inside the
container until needed, but it is completely used up whenever the
energy is released, whether the character wants to use it all or
not. The energy can be used by any practitioner of magic. The
container has to be at least the size of a canteen; a mage could
expect to carry no more than 4-6 of these containers (in addition
to other equipment) without being laden down and cumbersome.
If the character has seven or more containers, the following pen-alties apply: reduce speed by 10% and initiative and parry and
dodge rolls by two points.
Note: Energy Jars are for sale in the Empire of the Sun and in
areas that trade with the Empire, such as New Babylon. Cost for
these jars is typically 50 to I 00 credits per P.P.E. point stored.

The playing cards are better.

Yup, that was it! Thanks Daeglan!

The playing cards?

The Talisman idea that started this thread.

Daeglan wrote:The Talisman idea that started this thread.

*face palms*

Thanks.

I guess I just don't think that the Talisman spell should be so much greater than other spells which replicate it of relative level. For instance, I don't think that Kevin or anyone ever intended anyone to have a magic deck of cards with 1600 P.P.E. in it. I'd go as far as saying that if such a concept was submitted for official publication that it would be rejected and that is reason enough for me to disallow the gimmick in my own game.

Love magic decks though. Absolutely love them. Just not as a means of an unlimited P.P.E. battery. Especially since I have first hand experience with how difficult it is to drain a Ley Line Walker's P.P.E. in the first place. I had a vampire intelligence and their army on a LLW in my game for nearly 2 days straight and I only burned through 80% of his P.P.E.

It was maddening. The Vampire Intelligence was trying to wear him down with literally hundreds of minions so it could face him when he was too weak to cast globe of daylight but it took a maddening amount of losses and he only had about 200 P.P.E.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I guess I just don't think that the Talisman spell should be so much greater than other spells which replicate it of relative level.

You're complaining that Talisman, which costs 500 PPE to cast and is a 13th level spell, is more versatile than a line drawing power that only costs 20 PPE?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I guess I just don't think that the Talisman spell should be so much greater than other spells which replicate it of relative level.

You're complaining that Talisman, which costs 500 PPE to cast and is a 13th level spell, is more versatile than a line drawing power that only costs 20 PPE?

--flatline

I'm not complaining at all. I am saying that standing on a ley line for a day and creating a deck of cards that gives you an effective P.P.E. pool of 1700+ is unreasonable and not the intended purpose of the spell and other such abilities have reasonable limits--for exactly that reason.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I guess I just don't think that the Talisman spell should be so much greater than other spells which replicate it of relative level.

You're complaining that Talisman, which costs 500 PPE to cast and is a 13th level spell, is more versatile than a line drawing power that only costs 20 PPE?

--flatline

I'm not complaining at all. I am saying that standing on a ley line for a day and creating a deck of cards that gives you an effective P.P.E. pool of 1700+ is unreasonable and not the intended purpose of the spell and other such abilities have reasonable limits--for exactly that reason.

Well, if it really bothers you, if it happens in your game, start rolling on that table that has chances for Ley Line Storms, Rifts, etc, whenever someone disrupts a ley line by siphoning off THAT much energy.

Necrite wrote:Well, if it really bothers you, if it happens in your game, start rolling on that table that has chances for Ley Line Storms, Rifts, etc, whenever someone disrupts a ley line by siphoning off THAT much energy.

YOURE TWISTED!

I love it.

It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

Hopefully should the latter occur the player would be respectful of magic enough to play a Practitioner of Magic properly and so know better than to try to put ludicrous things like this.

Akashic Soldier wrote:It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

How do you handle this with Temporal Wizards who can start with Talisman or figure it out for themselves whenever they raise a level?

How do you handle this with High Magnus who automatically learn Talisman (and every other 13th level spell) when they reach level three?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

How do you handle this with Temporal Wizards who can start with Talisman or figure it out for themselves whenever they raise a level?

How do you handle this with High Magnus who automatically learn Talisman (and every other 13th level spell) when they reach level three?

--flatline

In my case, I have veto over everything, and my you have to get my permission before rolling any OCC that isn't in the main book. And I think both of those have reasons to be denied as PCs above and beyond the Talisman spell.

If I had a player that got high enough level to select Talisman, or I chose to make it available, then I wouldn't have a problem with it being used as described. I would roll for Ley Line events if it was overused though, as I said above.

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

How do you handle this with Temporal Wizards who can start with Talisman or figure it out for themselves whenever they raise a level?

How do you handle this with High Magnus who automatically learn Talisman (and every other 13th level spell) when they reach level three?

--flatline

As already mentioned I have veto over everything. I am pretty liberal with starting spells HOWEVER there is a good reason the Alchemist OCC is not recommended for player characters. Likewise, I am stingy with Techno-Wizards. By which I mean I actually make them spend the time and money building things and I heavily police what is within their ability.

It's called using good judgement. For instance, I am okay with someone making an overly powerful EMP Cannon because they need it for event X but I am not okay with making armor of ithian wrists bands that grant flight and supernatural strength -- just because they want to do more melee damage and "might as well get a free force field too"

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

How do you handle this with Temporal Wizards who can start with Talisman or figure it out for themselves whenever they raise a level?

How do you handle this with High Magnus who automatically learn Talisman (and every other 13th level spell) when they reach level three?

--flatline

As already mentioned I have veto over everything. I am pretty liberal with starting spells HOWEVER there is a good reason the Alchemist OCC is not recommended for player characters. Likewise, I am stingy with Techno-Wizards. By which I mean I actually make them spend the time and money building things and I heavily police what is within their ability.

It's called using good judgement. For instance, I am okay with someone making an overly powerful EMP Cannon because they need it for event X but I am not okay with making armor of ithian wrists bands that grant flight and supernatural strength -- just because they want to do more melee damage and "might as well get a free force field too"

So you're claiming that letting a character start with Talisman would not be "good judgement"?

Every Temporal Wizard I've ever played has started with it. Every non-Temporal Wizard I've played has eventually earned it (this was back when Talisman was the only way to cast a spell in a single action...not such a big deal now). I've never had a GM complain or veto my use of it.

I guess I just don't see the problem.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:It wouldn't happen in one of my games. I am too much of a douche bag. I actually base spell availability off the percentages listed in the R:UE and Mysteries of Magic so there is like 1% of someone having talisman. Might be a little higher. Its late I can't recall exactly. Otherwise, the only way a Practitioner of Magic can get it would be by reaching 15th level and selecting it as their 15th level spell or through some epic feat that earned it for them.

How do you handle this with Temporal Wizards who can start with Talisman or figure it out for themselves whenever they raise a level?

How do you handle this with High Magnus who automatically learn Talisman (and every other 13th level spell) when they reach level three?

--flatline

As already mentioned I have veto over everything. I am pretty liberal with starting spells HOWEVER there is a good reason the Alchemist OCC is not recommended for player characters. Likewise, I am stingy with Techno-Wizards. By which I mean I actually make them spend the time and money building things and I heavily police what is within their ability.

It's called using good judgement. For instance, I am okay with someone making an overly powerful EMP Cannon because they need it for event X but I am not okay with making armor of ithian wrists bands that grant flight and supernatural strength -- just because they want to do more melee damage and "might as well get a free force field too"

So you're claiming that letting a character start with Talisman would not be "good judgement"?

Every Temporal Wizard I've ever played has started with it. Every non-Temporal Wizard I've played has eventually earned it (this was back when Talisman was the only way to cast a spell in a single action...not such a big deal now). I've never had a GM complain or veto my use of it.

I guess I just don't see the problem.

--flatline

Not going to lie... I'm gonna hafta side with Flatline on this one. I fail to see a problem if you have a PC Mage who has the ability to create talismans... then let them do so! The whole deck of cards thing, with each card being a talisman, may seem a little over-the-top, in my eyes, but if it doesn't break the rules and does not seem to so require a heavy suspension of disbelief... then why the heck not?

I mean, Techno-Wizards are supposed to build magic machines. It's kind of their whole thing. If you're going to limit them in such a way that they are not actually allowed to create the components necessary to make some of their TW Items... you might as well just tell your Players from the get-go, "Don't play a Techno-Wizard, High Magus or Temporal Wizard because you won't be able to use some of the spells necessary to adequately perform your characters magic. Just tell ya right now..." It's a little on the silly side, in my opinion.

I mean, let's be a little realistic here (Just a little bit), The Talisman is one heck of a nifty little trinket and has umpteen bajillion concievable uses. The one trick is... it has to be loaded up. It does not perpetually replenish itself, it does not have a set number of uses in a day (Like the Splugorth Armor of Ithan Talisman), once it's used up, it's used up. This can be REALLY helpful in a bind and is ESPECIALLY helpful for those mages who focus a LOT on high-level magics or want to "Pre-plan" out what they are going to do. Talismans are going to come in really handy for when ya need them, but after that.. it's time to recharge.

What's wrong with having a mage make a Talisman with 3 charges of Invincible Armor on it? That's 3 Invincible Armor spells that he still has to cast... he just saves it for later for when he needs it. That's kinda what Talismans are for.

This has actually given me a really cool idea to off shoot from Flatline's 1760 PPE Deck of Cards. Learn the Talisman ritual, go to a ley line/nexus, and make a bunch of cards that are loaded up with different spells. Need an Armor of Ithan? Pull the three of hearts. Need a shadow beast, in a bind? The Jack of Spades is the card for you.... Awesome idea!

Well there are a few things not adressed, 1 limit on how much magic you can chanel at any given time (cant rember but think it was limited to 2 or 3 times your PPE.) Is activating a talisman an action? (I whould think using a talisman such as pulling the PPE whould use a action same as TW.) 3 what happens to your brif case and talisman deck when you get hit by an AOE attack such as a dragon breath weapon or missle. (I whould tink if it is not protected it can be damaged/destroyed.

I agree with Flatline as well - but I suggest one better... I saw a deck of wooden playing cards the size of a regular deck of cards... perhaps a little thicker per card but they'd still fit in a MtG card box... Make yourself a card box of thin sheets of wood, hit your wooden playing cards and your deck box with ironwood and you have a handy mega-damage PPE battery that actually works to cast spells through. (With a sliding lid so you can touch them all and still protect them with at least light MD coverage... or maybe use MD cloth for the case... Who knows, same general idea.)

Or you could go the route of Rifter #2 and secret away lots of emeralds in your bracers or something with a mega-damage armor plate over them to ensure they're protected as a method of storing PPE - they don't store as much PPE as a talisman but they also don't require 500 PPE to make.

Blue_Lion wrote:Well there are a few things not adressed, 1 limit on how much magic you can chanel at any given time (cant rember but think it was limited to 2 or 3 times your PPE.)

If your PPE reserve is 100, then you can hold a total of 300 PPE for a short time before the 200 above your limit slips away from you.

There is no limit on how much PPE you can channel. Fill a stadium with followers and you can perform a ritual with potentially millions of PPE even if your own personal PPE reserve is dismal.

Is activating a talisman an action? (I whould think using a talisman such as pulling the PPE whould use a action same as TW.)

Every GM I've ever played with ruled that it took 1 action to activate a talisman. It's not stated in the description of the spell, however, and I don't know that there's ever been any official clarification published.

3 what happens to your brif case and talisman deck when you get hit by an AOE attack such as a dragon breath weapon or missle. (I whould tink if it is not protected it can be damaged/destroyed.

Well, if the briefcase is destroyed, then the GM has to make a ruling about what happens to the contents of a dimensional pocket if the item the dimensional pocket is anchored to is destroyed (the spell description does not address this issue). Worst case: I lose everything in the briefcase (which could be hundreds or thousands of nested dimensional pockets).

It's actually never come up because I keep my briefcase in a dimensional pocket anchored to my clothing which is protected by same Armor of Ithan (or whatever) that protects me. If some blast makes it through my MDC protection, then as an SDC critter (usually), losing my clothing (and, thus, my briefcase) is usually not my biggest concern.

As for the decks of cards that I use as PPE batteries, they are extremely safe since I don't have to remove them from the dimensional pocket to use them. I simply reach into the pocket to touch them. If it's safe, I might remove them from the pocket to place them in another pocket (move them from the "full" pocket to the "partially full" or "empty" pockets, for example).

As you can probably tell, I don't worry so much about losing things. If a deck of cards gets vaporized, I can replace it assuming I survive.

The first thing I generally try to do once the game has started is explore random dimensions until I find one that is completely uninhabited. Once I find a good candidate I build a warehouse there (usually hidden underground, but I'm not really picky). I'm a pack rat which is why I love Temporal Wizards so much and over the course of a long campaign, I might acquire many warehouses full of stuff (all carefully packed away and recorded in our database so that we can find it easily when we want to).

I once did all this without the rest of the party knowing. When we'd make camp, I'd step into a dimensional envelope and then from there open a dimensional portal to my storage dimension. But this is really most effective when the whole party participates.

--flatline

If you leave the playing cards in the package to use them, couldn't you just have one silver rune on the outside of the box ? If the box holding the cards is now indestructible then by proxy the cards would be indestructible because you wouldn't be able to damage them because you couldn't get through the box. If you took the cards out of the box well then you're screwed, lol

Razzinold wrote:If you leave the playing cards in the package to use them, couldn't you just have one silver rune on the outside of the box ? If the box holding the cards is now indestructible then by proxy the cards would be indestructible because you wouldn't be able to damage them because you couldn't get through the box. If you took the cards out of the box well then you're screwed, lol

Except that the box has a hole cut in it to allow you to come into contact with the cards. So if you get hit by a Fireball, or a Plasma blast, or anything else like that, it can burn away at least part of the cards. And if it's Mega-Damage, I'd say that you'd end up with an indestructible box full of ash.

Necrite wrote:

Razzinold wrote:If you leave the playing cards in the package to use them, couldn't you just have one silver rune on the outside of the box ? If the box holding the cards is now indestructible then by proxy the cards would be indestructible because you wouldn't be able to damage them because you couldn't get through the box. If you took the cards out of the box well then you're screwed, lol

Except that the box has a hole cut in it to allow you to come into contact with the cards. So if you get hit by a Fireball, or a Plasma blast, or anything else like that, it can burn away at least part of the cards. And if it's Mega-Damage, I'd say that you'd end up with an indestructible box full of ash.

And this is why a good force field is so important. It protects your clothing and therefore anything inside your clothing. Armor of Ithan is my favorite since people can't tell you have it up, but I'm also a fan of the Naruni (or similar) forcefields. Even better if they run off of E-clips so that I can recharge them using sub-particle acceleration.

Edit: you've inspired me to pull out my RUE TW construction rules. Looks like you can build a TW version of the Blind Warrior Women amulet (or ring or whatever form you prefer) that provides 100 MDC for 2 PPE and lasts 10 minutes for roughly $800k. Or, if you can't find a 10th level Technowizard, a 5th level TW could give you 50 MDC for 1 PPE that lasts for 5 minutes for a mere $400k. Not bad. Of course, if I were GM, I'd throw out the TW construction rules (or at least neuter them) since they're so easily abused.

--flatline

I always make clear the specifics to my players before hand. I have just seen all the tricks with talaisman and know how powerful it is and this deck of mans as it were is just one example of something that is unbalancing and remotes resource and spell limitations.

I limit TW innovation because I should get things like I see in Black Vault but its my experience that players just slap the most powerful combat spells they can on weapons and armor with no really interesting concept behind it.

That said, I would not be opposed to a Talisman Mage OCC but it would have to be carefully designed to avoid turning the mystic forces of the cosmos into a commodity and ending up with an effective unlimited PPE and Spell Base.

As for every character having it... I don't like that. It's not realistic or believable. That spell costs almost twice the cost of a Glitterboy. It's a kin to saying every member of that OCC has two Glitterboys parked back home and I don't like that. It does not seem reasonable to me for a starting level character.

Akashic Soldier wrote:That said, I would not be opposed to a Talisman Mage OCC but it would have to be carefully designed to avoid turning the mystic forces of the cosmos into a commodity and ending up with an effective unlimited PPE and Spell Base.

I'm not sure that talismans would have that high of a value as a commodity. According to the description in Book of Magic, talismans are basically disposable items, unless you have access to the original caster; nobody else can recharge them. Unless they're being sold dirt cheap, I can't see them selling that often, and I can't see most mages being willing to sell cheap, when (unless they're on a Ley line) it takes a VERY large expenditure of PPE to create and/or charge the talismans.

Necrite wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:That said, I would not be opposed to a Talisman Mage OCC but it would have to be carefully designed to avoid turning the mystic forces of the cosmos into a commodity and ending up with an effective unlimited PPE and Spell Base.

I'm not sure that talismans would have that high of a value as a commodity. According to the description in Book of Magic, talismans are basically disposable items, unless you have access to the original caster; nobody else can recharge them. Unless they're being sold dirt cheap, I can't see them selling that often, and I can't see most mages being willing to sell cheap, when (unless they're on a Ley line) it takes a VERY large expenditure of PPE to create and/or charge the talismans.

I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet. I've also seen people with characters that are covered in talismans from head to toe filled with spells and P.P.E. and its just ludicrous. It could be a cool idea if done right, but it'd be so easy to do it wrong -- that was my point.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Necrite wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:That said, I would not be opposed to a Talisman Mage OCC but it would have to be carefully designed to avoid turning the mystic forces of the cosmos into a commodity and ending up with an effective unlimited PPE and Spell Base.

I'm not sure that talismans would have that high of a value as a commodity. According to the description in Book of Magic, talismans are basically disposable items, unless you have access to the original caster; nobody else can recharge them. Unless they're being sold dirt cheap, I can't see them selling that often, and I can't see most mages being willing to sell cheap, when (unless they're on a Ley line) it takes a VERY large expenditure of PPE to create and/or charge the talismans.

I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet. I've also seen people with characters that are covered in talismans from head to toe filled with spells and P.P.E. and its just ludicrous. It could be a cool idea if done right, but it'd be so easy to do it wrong -- that was my point.

Interesting house rule you have for recharging Talismans. If a player asked me about letting them do something like that, I think I'd rule against it for Talismans, but maybe I'd allow something like that for recharging TW devices.

--flatline

Its not a house rule. If you can recharge a talisman on a ley line, then you can recharge it through sacrifice. That is in R:UE. Heck, if you " cant" then nothing is stopping you from absorbing the P.P.E. from the mice and then just put it straight back into the talisman.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet.

Ick. That would be fine for an evil NPC, I guess, but I couldn't imagine allowing a PC to do that (since I strongly discourage evil PCs). And if you try to tell me that killing DOZENS of innocents, whether they're human or animal, for profit isn't evil, I'm going to have to argue the point. This isn't like running a slaughterhouse, or buying the mice to feed your pet snake - you can't eat ley lines, nor can you "just take some" and let it grow back, both of which are options for harvesting PPE.

But I do see your point.

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet. I've also seen people with characters that are covered in talismans from head to toe filled with spells and P.P.E. and its just ludicrous. It could be a cool idea if done right, but it'd be so easy to do it wrong -- that was my point.

Interesting house rule you have for recharging Talismans. If a player asked me about letting them do something like that, I think I'd rule against it for Talismans, but maybe I'd allow something like that for recharging TW devices.

--flatline

I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying slightly. He isn't using the ritual sacrifice to recharge the talisman. He's using the sacrifice to bolster his own PPE, then using that to recharge the talisman. The only limitation on recharging a talisman is that it must be the original creator who does it.

Necrite wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I go to the pet shop, buy 50 mice and tie them to a little board with a pentagram and position the talisman in the middle and then ritualistically kill each of the mice and the life force they expel at the time of their death is absorbed into the amulet.

Ick. That would be fine for an evil NPC, I guess, but I couldn't imagine allowing a PC to do that (since I strongly discourage evil PCs). And if you try to tell me that killing DOZENS of innocents, whether they're human or animal, for profit isn't evil, I'm going to have to argue the point. This isn't like running a slaughterhouse, or buying the mice to feed your pet snake - you can't eat ley lines, nor can you "just take some" and let it grow back, both of which are options for harvesting PPE.

But I do see your point.

I like you. We need more people like you.

I don't see what having access to a bunch of mana unbalances. You can only cast so many spells a turn.

Many spells have non-zero durations. By stacking spells indefinitely, things can get overpowered VERY quickly.

Necrite wrote:Many spells have non-zero durations. By stacking spells indefinitely, things can get overpowered VERY quickly.

And how is this different from when they are on a ley line, or nexus? How is this different than normal casting?