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I have been reading some articles on the net regarding Special Forces within the varios militaries and police organizations around the world. These articles point to the Special forces personel in general being VERY highly trained individuals. They are known to attend the exact same schools that the rest of their fellow military and police personel attend in addition to their special forces schools.

For example, The US Air Force and the US Army have groups of men that are fully licensed air traffic controlers in addition to their fighting skills that rival other special forces personell such as the navy seals...whom they even train with and deploy together with in joint operations.

I would guess that the Military and polices forces of the UEG would have similarly trained special forces individuals within their various organizations.

To do so would almost certainly require two MOS's. This is available though the Jack of All trades special ability within the Shadow Chronicles book. However, the rules state that in the case of a JOAT, the second MOS is without bonuses (skill or attibute). Additionaly the rules are unclear if JOAT allows you to take MOS's from outside of your own OCC.

In the case of Special Forces I propose two ideas:

1. The Special Forces MOS should be made available to ALL Military and Police OCC's.
2. When a player chooses to use the Special Forces MOS as one of their two JOAT MOS's,
the second MOS can be taken at FULL bonuses.

What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with Gryphon on this. I like having a type of special forces in the game, but for me I have them simply being the PCs. they have the special attribute bonuses and what not already. They are the elite of the games. And they are generally the first ones sent out on Missions. So i use them as the games Special forces. I also grant them better weapon choices and special gear. Letting each OCC compliment each other to fill the void of skills.

Special Forces are never mentioned in the series so they do not exist.

Chris0013 wrote:Special Forces are never mentioned in the series so they do not exist.

Or, like ninja, TRUE special forces aren't mentioned because nobody knows they really exist...they're hiding in plain sight.

Chris0013 wrote:Special Forces are never mentioned in the series so they do not exist.

Untrue:

Eulogy
Scott: Yep, [Wolfe] graduated #1 in his class and then volunteered for Special Forces duty when Admiral Hunter sent in the first wave against The Robotech Masters.

Chris0013 wrote:Special Forces are never mentioned in the series so they do not exist.

There are indeed Elite and Special Forces that appear within the show. They are some times named in a way that would let you know they are special and they sometimes just do their job in a very unique way.

The Skull Squadren aboard the SDF-1 was an Elite group of fighter pilots. They did missions that the regular flight line groups did not do. You saw Skull group do things like blow a hole in the side of a battle cruiser, fly in and show off a BABY to a group of soldiers. that type of mission is not something a regular pilot would undertake. But Max and Miyira Sterling of the Skull Squadren did.

I point out that Rick Hunter and Max Sterling did not start out in the Skull Squadren. They had to earn their way into it. Rick was an accomplished pilot and wing leader before he took over command after Roy Fokker died.

ATAC-15 may have began as a regular tank group, but they evolved into a group used more like special forces. they got used for infaltration of enemy vessels. they were assigned to work with an enemy prisoner of war and in fact trained him in their mecha. training of foreign troops is something special forces do...not regular line units in general.

Lancer did things like develop covert information networks, disguise himself, and he used very a very specialized cyclone designed for clandestine operations. He was not necessarily called special forces...but he very much acted in the genere that a special operator would.

At the end of the series you see a combat photographer. she also acted with the kind of independance that a special forces person would. She was not attached to a specific unit like most imbeded photographers are. she made it clear in her speach that she was working directly for Admiral Hunter. regular officers and infantry do not work basicaly directly for the fleet admiral...but special forces could. Special forces often act with very little support.

Within the game, You do see some special forces type MOS's in a couple of the OCC's. The Veritech Pilot for example has the recon pilot. These individuals very much act like special forces in what they do.

However, many OCC's have particular skills (and MOS's) closed to them. The Technical Officer OCC for example does not have a special forces type MOS. they do not have access to espionage skills at all.

What I am saying is that many if not most special forces personel have not only advanced training in fighting, but advanced training in another field of expertise. some are super snipers, some are demolitions experts, some can fix any vehicle that exists, come can fly any airplane or chopper. but all of them have fighting capabilities that FAR excede the normal enlisted man or officer.

Within Rifts, you see a Coalition Special Forces OCC that has access to every skill under the sun. Thus they model both strong fighting skills and potentialy strong technical skills. I am suggesting that Robotech could do something similar.

I do not necessarily think of most players as being a part of special forces. They have for the most part the same training and same equipment as the regular units. What I do think of them as being is multi talented groups that get sent on a variety of missions.

sirkermittsg wrote:There are indeed Elite and Special Forces that appear within the show. They are some times named in a way that would let you know they are special and they sometimes just do their job in a very unique way.

That's debatable, really... sending regular mooks on an unusual mission doesn't make them special forces. That said, I've frequently made the player characters in my games new recruits in special forces units... that way they have a little more latitude for screwing around, and a justification for being big damn heroes. It also lets me throw the occasional GMNPC between them and the big bad of the story before they've reached a point where they can actually confront him and not end up strewn across the landscape. (Well, that and it gives me justification for letting them have access to the nicer toys in any given setting, stuff that ordinarily wouldn't be handed to a greenhorn fresh out of training.)

As far as giving players the second MOS at full bonuses... that's probably a big of a game-breaker.

sirkermittsg wrote:I point out that Rick Hunter and Max Sterling did not start out in the Skull Squadren.

You'd be wrong to say so... Rick's first sortie is as a member of Skull squadron, remember? During the run-up to the battle in Saturn's rings, he's repeatedly identified as "Skull 23". So yeah, he did actually start in Skull squadron. Technically, Max did too... the markings visible on his plane in "The Big Escape" indicate that Vermilion is a subdivision of Skull squadron. (A holdover from the original Macross, where that was the case... Vermilion team/platoon was a component of the Skull squadron. Max's plane was Skull squadron, Vermilion Team, Unit 003. The team marking is visible below his canopy frame when he bails out in that elevator.)

sirkermittsg wrote:ATAC-15 may have began as a regular tank group, but they evolved into a group used more like special forces. they got used for infaltration of enemy vessels. they were assigned to work with an enemy prisoner of war and in fact trained him in their mecha. training of foreign troops is something special forces do...not regular line units in general.

The 15th ATAC in the Masters Saga wasn't elite or a special forces unit... if anything, it was the Delta House of the UEDF, with its problem child commanders and habit of breaking orders. A lot of what they did wasn't done because they were in any way special or elite, but because they were the only ones who volunteered. (Personally, I've always entertained the theory that Leonard and the brass hated Dana and were hoping she as too dumb to live, not realizing that she had plot armor three miles thick.)

sirkermittsg wrote:Lancer did things like develop covert information networks, disguise himself, and he used very a very specialized cyclone designed for clandestine operations. He was not necessarily called special forces...but he very much acted in the genere that a special operator would.

Not by choice though... he was a bog-standard grunt who was forced into espionage because the alternative was a very messy death. His choice of Cyclone isn't all that specialized either, it was what his fighter was issued with. His comrades presumably had similar units, since that was before the VR-052 came into service.

sirkermittsg wrote:At the end of the series you see a combat photographer. she also acted with the kind of independance that a special forces person would.

IIRC, she identifies herself as an intelligence division operative... she's not actually a combat photographer, per se.

Gryphon wrote:Actually, Lancer appears to start out as a pilot, not a spec ops trooper, and its a likely bet his Cyclone came along much later on, since his fighter doesn't have a bay for a Cyclone, and he wasn't really in any shape to to do anything with it anyhow, right? [...]

He definitely started out as a pilot, but the Invasion limited comic series shows that his fighter WAS equipped with a cyclone (the one he uses in the series), and that he was more than healthy enough to use it.

I actually have a VERY developed Special Missions Command for use in all eras of the UEDF and UEEF. I updated it all to Second Edition a few years ago. I can't link to it here, but PM me and I'll send the address your way.

I dont have access to the comics. never have seen them in stores, never touched them. So I can not comment on them.

I only have access to most of the books and DVD's of the tv shows (which are in storage actually). Thus I am unable to comment on the history of mecha and characters outside of what is seen in the shows for the most part.

The battler VR-052 has always been portrayed in the books and on the tv shows as the emergency mecha stored on an alpha. there are lots of pictures of it being folded up.

the VR-041 Saber has always been portrayed to have been designed for special forces and clandestine operations. I have never seen pictures of one being folded for storage.

Gryphon wrote:Ya know, that is a good point really. Does the Saber and Lite actually fold up? I always assumed so (and still do actually), but can't actually recall at the moment if i have ever seen such a thing happen or not???

Even so, no proof or not, that is the current stance, so I wouldn't stop using the box mode for all of them anyhow really.

The Saber does assume a box storage mode in the (canon) Wildstorm Comic series Invasion as already mentioned. Within the show the only Cyclone to assume the box storage was the VR-052 in the 1st NG episode, after that IINM Cyclones are all in bike mode, though in "Genesis Pits" it is implied w/Scott's.

It almost has to be implied after Point K when they get three more VFs as we don't see them stored in Bike mode in Lunk's truck in a variety of episodes ("The Fortress", "Frost Bite", "Reflex Point", to name a few) but the team still has access to them.

sirkermittsg wrote:I dont have access to the comics. never have seen them in stores, never touched them. So I can not comment on them.

While I'd like to say you didn't miss much, I have to admit the plot of the Shadow Chronicles movie is marginally less nonsensical if you've read the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comic.

sirkermittsg wrote:The battler VR-052 has always been portrayed in the books and on the tv shows as the emergency mecha stored on an alpha. there are lots of pictures of it being folded up.

Principally because that's the way it had been presented in the Robotech series, the surfeit of line art being because the VR-052 MOSPEADA was originally supposed to be the central mecha of Genesis Climber MOSPEADA before the TV series fell prey to executive meddling in mid-development. It's depicted correctly because the series cheerfully made that easy for Palladium's writers to do.

sirkermittsg wrote:the VR-041 Saber has always been portrayed to have been designed for special forces and clandestine operations. I have never seen pictures of one being folded for storage.

One of the many wild guesses that was included in the Robotech books before the establishment of an official canon for the Robotech universe. There's nothing anywhere in the series that makes the VR-041 out to be a unit made for clandestine operations or anything of that sort. Ironically, it's described as being the exact opposite of a clandestine ops unit... it's a front-line heavy combat model, and was apparently the standard-issue Cyclone for Expeditionary Forces pilots in the 1st Reclamation Force. Less artistic attention was lavished on it by the original Japanese creators because it was a background variation design, used by only one character. There's nothing in the original animation model sheets that suggests that it couldn't have folded up into storage mode.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Ironically, it's described as being the exact opposite of a clandestine ops unit... it's a front-line heavy combat model, and was apparently the standard-issue Cyclone for Expeditionary Forces pilots in the 1st Reclamation Force.

Heh, which is why I started referring to it as the VR-041 Grenadier. I also think strapping 2 ceramic blades onto the forearms is stupidity at its finest since you would NOT want to go toe-to-toe with a larger mecha (or even an equal sized one like the Protector) in hand-to-hand combat. You kill your enemies from stand-off ranges and scoot.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Ironically, it's described as being the exact opposite of a clandestine ops unit... it's a front-line heavy combat model, and was apparently the standard-issue Cyclone for Expeditionary Forces pilots in the 1st Reclamation Force.

Heh, which is why I started referring to it as the VR-041 Grenadier. I also think strapping 2 ceramic blades onto the forearms is stupidity at its finest since you would NOT want to go toe-to-toe with a larger mecha (or even an equal sized one like the Protector) in hand-to-hand combat. You kill your enemies from stand-off ranges and scoot.

On the two or three occasions where games I've run have used it, I've gone with the original unit name "Blowsperior", tho I also undid a lot of the downgrades the Robotech version got compared to the original MOSPEADA spec. There's surprisingly many advantages in having a pair of high-frequency swords on such a small unit... some of which do make the VR-041 passably sneaky in urban combat.

Hay, I like the ideal of having those blades when you run out of ammo.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Heh, which is why I started referring to it as the VR-041 Grenadier. I also think strapping 2 ceramic blades onto the forearms is stupidity at its finest since you would NOT want to go toe-to-toe with a larger mecha (or even an equal sized one like the Protector) in hand-to-hand combat. You kill your enemies from stand-off ranges and scoot.

This. I had a variant that replaced the two blades with either an EP-40 ion pulse pistol or a GR-97 missile launcher on either arm. Depending on if you were right- or left-handed.

Arnie100 wrote:This. I had a variant that replaced the two blades with either an EP-40 ion pulse pistol or a GR-97 missile launcher on either arm. Depending on if you were right- or left-handed.

VR-041T Grenadier

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Arnie100 wrote:This. I had a variant that replaced the two blades with either an EP-40 ion pulse pistol or a GR-97 missile launcher on either arm. Depending on if you were right- or left-handed.

VR-041T Grenadier

Nnnniiicccee! Is there a pic of that in cycle mode?

Arnie100 wrote:Nnnniiicccee! Is there a pic of that in cycle mode?

Uh, no. I'm not that good. Sadly, I could only do the GR-97's since the EP-40 pics I have are out of scale too badly.

and with that, the 1st edition Battler is reborn!

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Arnie100 wrote:Nnnniiicccee! Is there a pic of that in cycle mode?

Uh, no. I'm not that good. Sadly, I could only do the GR-97's since the EP-40 pics I have are out of scale too badly.

It still looked good!

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Arnie100 wrote:Nnnniiicccee! Is there a pic of that in cycle mode?

Uh, no. I'm not that good. Sadly, I could only do the GR-97's since the EP-40 pics I have are out of scale too badly.

Photomanip from the show of a pack of Cyclone Mode VR-041 w/GR-97, EP-40, and CADS-1. This is created from 3 separate screenshots (at RR) of the Cyclones in side view, done fairly quickly.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/82 ... ments.jpg/

I don't think there is room to put a 4th Cyclone in (showing the clear VR-038/052 empty slot) without it looking real crowded. RL-6/EP-37 probably could also be added though.

Seto wrote:Less artistic attention was lavished on it by the original Japanese creators because it was a background variation design, used by only one character.

2 characters, 1 main 1 background (1 shot, not as much time as Sue does w/the other VR-038):
-Lancer
-Nader Jr in Lunk's flashback

Alpha 11 wrote::D Hay, I like the ideal of having those blades when you run out of ammo.

Me too... but the way the players who've used them in my games have always ended up using them is in their capacity as anti-material weapons, mostly for "If you can't find a door, make one instead" type situations.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto wrote:Less artistic attention was lavished on it by the original Japanese creators because it was a background variation design, used by only one character.

2 characters, 1 main 1 background (1 shot, not as much time as Sue does w/the other VR-038):
-Lancer
-Nader Jr in Lunk's flashback

Ah, ok.

Gryphon wrote:I had a character in my game that would routinely take down non-Invid threats, including other Cyclones, at least two UEDF Battloids, and once a rebuilt Alpha fighter, all with the blades alone. sure, it took a while after his first surprise from behind assault (x3, x4 if you crit too). Same character once took the gun arm off of an RCB too, though that happened because the Invid pilot was "new" (2nd level I believe) and also because they were in the ruins of a major city (a rebuilt Chicago in my setting, where some UEEF shipyards were at) and there were a whole lot of mecha active, like ~100 Invid, 25-30 UEEF Cyclones, half a dozen Alphas, and 15-20 UEDF power suits, 20-25 Battloids, and at least two dozen UEDF mecha (mostly Spartas and Logans, but a few others as well).

Basically the Invid got confused, wandered ear a parking garage, and then had her mecha's arm amputated in a single really good series of rolls.

Same character flat disrespected Enforcers (2nd Edition Soldiers), and refused to "waste" ammo on them, preferring to execute (not fight, not battle, not confront...execute...seriously, this guy never felt threatened, no matter how many Enforcers there were!) them with his blades instead.

So I learned not to underestimate those damn blades, especially since they were invulnerable parrying shields, and this guy had paired weapons!

I also saw them used at least a few times in other games, and by other players, as a really good way to force an Invid to back the heck off. Take a swipe or two at their eyes, and connect even once! Yo may or may not penetrate, but that Invid is done for that battle and is running home to mummy!

I have not yet decided on whether forearm modules are interchangeable or not, and whether the Blowsperior/Saber can carry other less power intensive systems as a standard. I can't see why not, since they are all less power intensive by comparison (missiles or magazine fed weapons), but if I do decide to go this route, then the Battler will end up being notable more heavily armored by comparison, since its torsos are effectively empty.

See.

Alpha 11 wrote:

Gryphon wrote:I had a character in my game that would routinely take down non-Invid threats, including other Cyclones, at least two UEDF Battloids, and once a rebuilt Alpha fighter, all with the blades alone. sure, it took a while after his first surprise from behind assault (x3, x4 if you crit too). Same character once took the gun arm off of an RCB too, though that happened because the Invid pilot was "new" (2nd level I believe) and also because they were in the ruins of a major city (a rebuilt Chicago in my setting, where some UEEF shipyards were at) and there were a whole lot of mecha active, like ~100 Invid, 25-30 UEEF Cyclones, half a dozen Alphas, and 15-20 UEDF power suits, 20-25 Battloids, and at least two dozen UEDF mecha (mostly Spartas and Logans, but a few others as well).

Basically the Invid got confused, wandered ear a parking garage, and then had her mecha's arm amputated in a single really good series of rolls.

Same character flat disrespected Enforcers (2nd Edition Soldiers), and refused to "waste" ammo on them, preferring to execute (not fight, not battle, not confront...execute...seriously, this guy never felt threatened, no matter how many Enforcers there were!) them with his blades instead.

So I learned not to underestimate those damn blades, especially since they were invulnerable parrying shields, and this guy had paired weapons!

I also saw them used at least a few times in other games, and by other players, as a really good way to force an Invid to back the heck off. Take a swipe or two at their eyes, and connect even once! Yo may or may not penetrate, but that Invid is done for that battle and is running home to mummy!

I have not yet decided on whether forearm modules are interchangeable or not, and whether the Blowsperior/Saber can carry other less power intensive systems as a standard. I can't see why not, since they are all less power intensive by comparison (missiles or magazine fed weapons), but if I do decide to go this route, then the Battler will end up being notable more heavily armored by comparison, since its torsos are effectively empty.

See.

It also depends on how the Invid are being played.

Arnie100 wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:

Gryphon wrote:I had a character in my game that would routinely take down non-Invid threats, including other Cyclones, at least two UEDF Battloids, and once a rebuilt Alpha fighter, all with the blades alone. sure, it took a while after his first surprise from behind assault (x3, x4 if you crit too). Same character once took the gun arm off of an RCB too, though that happened because the Invid pilot was "new" (2nd level I believe) and also because they were in the ruins of a major city (a rebuilt Chicago in my setting, where some UEEF shipyards were at) and there were a whole lot of mecha active, like ~100 Invid, 25-30 UEEF Cyclones, half a dozen Alphas, and 15-20 UEDF power suits, 20-25 Battloids, and at least two dozen UEDF mecha (mostly Spartas and Logans, but a few others as well).

Basically the Invid got confused, wandered ear a parking garage, and then had her mecha's arm amputated in a single really good series of rolls.

Same character flat disrespected Enforcers (2nd Edition Soldiers), and refused to "waste" ammo on them, preferring to execute (not fight, not battle, not confront...execute...seriously, this guy never felt threatened, no matter how many Enforcers there were!) them with his blades instead.

So I learned not to underestimate those damn blades, especially since they were invulnerable parrying shields, and this guy had paired weapons!

I also saw them used at least a few times in other games, and by other players, as a really good way to force an Invid to back the heck off. Take a swipe or two at their eyes, and connect even once! Yo may or may not penetrate, but that Invid is done for that battle and is running home to mummy!

I have not yet decided on whether forearm modules are interchangeable or not, and whether the Blowsperior/Saber can carry other less power intensive systems as a standard. I can't see why not, since they are all less power intensive by comparison (missiles or magazine fed weapons), but if I do decide to go this route, then the Battler will end up being notable more heavily armored by comparison, since its torsos are effectively empty.

See.

It also depends on how the Invid are being played.

Years ago when i played another fantasy RPG our gm asked for a player to actually run as the monsters. And that person sole purpose was to be better then the GM in running monsters.

The Sabers are pretty cool toys if you want to play a hand to hand specialist, which would fit a special forces type game. Silent and deadly. They may not be for everyone but some of us like them.

"The Sabers are pretty cool toys if you want to play a hand to hand specialist, which would fit a special forces type game. Silent and deadly. They may not be for everyone but some of us like them."

2nd edition does not hype up the renewing forcefield of the sabers like 1st edition did. the forefields made the 1st edition saber the most powerful cyclone period. I want to point out that the VH-041 has 12 mini missles to the battler's 2 or 4. that also gives it quite abit of firepower on it's own. I never saw the EP as being worth much...the Gallant in rifle mode does more damage and has greater range.

I would absolutely play a 1st edition saber in exactly the same way as your player did there Gryphon.

hmmm based on this I think all my cyclones in my storage bays will be sabers muhahahaha.

Lt Gargoyle wrote: Years ago when i played another fantasy RPG our gm asked for a player to actually run as the monsters. And that person sole purpose was to be better then the GM in running monsters.

The Sabers are pretty cool toys if you want to play a hand to hand specialist, which would fit a special forces type game. Silent and deadly. They may not be for everyone but some of us like them.

I would the balls to play the monsters for sure. player vs. player sounds like fun stuff to me.

It is rather funny when ASC hand weapons are more powerful then UEEF hand weapons and hand weapons for the cyclones.

sirkermittsg wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote: Years ago when i played another fantasy RPG our gm asked for a player to actually run as the monsters. And that person sole purpose was to be better then the GM in running monsters.

The Sabers are pretty cool toys if you want to play a hand to hand specialist, which would fit a special forces type game. Silent and deadly. They may not be for everyone but some of us like them.

I would the balls to play the monsters for sure. player vs. player sounds like fun stuff to me.

it made the games more interesting thats for sure. The monster player did not get anything out of it. But oh how a goblin type became more dangerous in a players hand.


@ Gryphon - cyclones have an advantage the larger mecha don't. they can run for great distances on standard fuels so as not to bring the attention of the Invid on them. And while I know the veritechs can uses electric, they are still in the air, and I run the invid as seeing the whole world as a no fly zone for non invid.

Arnie100 wrote:It is rather funny when ASC hand weapons are more powerful then UEEF hand weapons and hand weapons for the cyclones.

The Southern Cross is only a dream. It never happened.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:

Arnie100 wrote:It is rather funny when ASC hand weapons are more powerful then UEEF hand weapons and hand weapons for the cyclones.

The Southern Cross is only a dream. It never happened.

Tell that to RSCF... I am sure he would tell you otherwise!

Arnie100 wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:

Arnie100 wrote:It is rather funny when ASC hand weapons are more powerful then UEEF hand weapons and hand weapons for the cyclones.

The Southern Cross is only a dream. It never happened.

Tell that to RSCF... I am sure he would tell you otherwise!

well some of us think it was a good dream. Some not so good. mahahahahaha

Gryphon wrote:I had a character in my game that would routinely take down non-Invid threats, including other Cyclones, at least two UEDF Battloids, and once a rebuilt Alpha fighter, all with the blades alone. sure, it took a while after his first surprise from behind assault (x3, x4 if you crit too). Same character once took the gun arm off of an RCB too, though that happened because the Invid pilot was "new" (2nd level I believe) and also because they were in the ruins of a major city (a rebuilt Chicago in my setting, where some UEEF shipyards were at) and there were a whole lot of mecha active, like ~100 Invid, 25-30 UEEF Cyclones, half a dozen Alphas, and 15-20 UEDF power suits, 20-25 Battloids, and at least two dozen UEDF mecha (mostly Spartas and Logans, but a few others as well).

This makes me think back to the one Saber Cyclone user I had, in one battle the dice where very good to me when I did melee attacks with the blades, but very bad when I tried any type of ranged attack. And not the first time such a thing happened either...

Gryphon wrote:I have not yet decided on whether forearm modules are interchangeable or not, and whether the Blowsperior/Saber can carry other less power intensive systems as a standard. I can't see why not, since they are all less power intensive by comparison (missiles or magazine fed weapons), but if I do decide to go this route, then the Battler will end up being notable more heavily armored by comparison, since its torsos are effectively empty.

Given the Silverback I would have to say they are. Though the -038/52 letters refer to the forearm sections, on the -041 it seems to refer to the shoulder pods, so CADS-1 might be the exception (if it wasn't for the Silverback).

Gryphon wrote:Now, the EP-37 has been heavily nerfed, though it is still as dangerous as an EP-13 form an Alpha. The EP-40 isn't worthless, but it isn't any sort of go to weapon really. And since mini-missiles haven't changed, the RL-6 is a bit anemic really. The new player on the block, the Valiant, is...well...really, what was its point? It doesn't really replace either the Gallant or the EP-37, it has somewhat greater range than the former, but significantly less than the latter, but only marginally improved endurance over an EP-40 (110 4D6 hits versus 138 4D6 bursts, making it less accurate overall.)

Regarding the Valiant, yes it's sort of a WTH type weapon going off the fluff text. It comes across as an EP-40/H-90Rifle replacement rather than one for the EP-37 (as stated in the text). About the only advantage a Valiant has over the EP-37 is payload (and mass, but here it might explain the better performance), and unless its been changed the EP-37 uses regular E-clips instead of Protoculture-E-Clips in the entries I see for the weapon in the Manga-Ed.

Given the SAL-9 can use either type (and with a payload boost to PE-Clip), I don't see why other weapons might not also have dual clip types in similar ratio.

I hate to say this, but the Valiant is pretty worthless. It has no advantages over any of the systems its replacing other then payload.

Gryphon wrote:Actually, a few points about the EP-37 that I just noticed.

ShadowLogan is partly correct, its smallarms entry has 50 x 4D4 shots, and a quintuple burst dealing 1D6x10...this is significantly more powerful than I first through, and it once again makes the EU-13 (and not EP-13 as I stated several times prior) look like a poor joke. Especially since it doesn't say its a protoculture powered weapon.

However, the Cyclone -052F entry says is DOES use a protoculture power source...and had 100 x 4D4 blasts, and can still burst. Either way, the EP-37, as is, can be a "conventionally" powered weapon, or a protoculture powered weapon, and the only thing that changes is that it gets twice as many blasts. Is this a mistake, or intentional?

Also, I really think the EU-13 needs to be like a range 5,000-6,000', 500 x 4D4 individual blasts weapon system with a 2D4x10 per five round burst setting to make it a viable option again ! (4D4 = 16, 16 x 5 = 80, 80 = 2D4x10, just to spell out my logic here...optionally, be really, really mean about it, and boost it up to a 4D6/2D6x10 beam gun like the GU-11 projectile weapon instead!!!)

Ok I have studied the book some. I can find no mention in the manga sized book of the EP-37 being protoculture powered. it has better range then the other weapons but is it also significantly heavier. so it can not really be used by some one not in cyclone armor (P.S. 21 or greater required for full accuracy). the Gallant absolutely can be used and carried by a person not in power armor. down side - the gallant definitely is protoculture powered.

I agree with you that the EU-13 SUCKS. I have long had a big beef with the infantry weapons doing similar or even more damage then the guns that the much larger mecha have.

In special forces cyclone applications I would use the HRG-70 Rail Gun. It is not protoculture powered and 4000 feet of range puts it outside of the invid protoculture targeting sensor (3000 feet). For Alpha use, I personally prefer the EU-15 Destabilizer because it's force field attack capabilities make it very versitile. it also does slightly more damage. On Earth, consider it to be a gold mine if you come across the ASC Energy Weapons...they are not protoculture powered.

Gryphon wrote:ShadowLogan is partly correct, its smallarms entry has 50 x 4D4 shots, and a quintuple burst dealing 1D6x10...this is significantly more powerful than I first through, and it once again makes the EU-13 (and not EP-13 as I stated several times prior) look like a poor joke. Especially since it doesn't say its a protoculture powered weapon.

However, the Cyclone -052F entry says is DOES use a protoculture power source...and had 100 x 4D4 blasts, and can still burst. Either way, the EP-37, as is, can be a "conventionally" powered weapon, or a protoculture powered weapon, and the only thing that changes is that it gets twice as many blasts. Is this a mistake, or intentional?

Which version of the TSC Main RPG do you have: Manga or Deluxue? Because Manga does not mention anything about PE-Clip.

You are correct there is a payload difference between the Cyclone Entry and the Infantry entry. Indications of multiple size clips would be my guess (Rifts does have short/long/Canister E-Clip) unless when used by a Cyclone/mecha it somehow taps it for extra power (making two mecha "rounds" equal to 1 infantry "round"). Personally I would go with the different size clip than the mecha tap.

As for the EP-37 vs EU-13, yeah there is that disconnect in size and stats that is prevalent throughout the Palladium System.

the reference you mentioned is not present in the manga size. I presume they changed it when they reprinted the book into the deluxe size.

Gryphon wrote:And there never appears to be different energy magazine sizes when relating directly to the EP-37...in fact, I have never really been sure where the energy magazine really is, I just assume its that oddly tapered projection on the top aft part, but I really don't honestly know.

There's a picture on the uRRG's Cyclone page: it's the box directly below the top projection, between the stock and grip.

Gryphon wrote:Huh...missed that one then. So whats the point of the big tapering bit then? Cooling would be aroudn the barrel and "chamber", while targeting is that thing along the foregrip area. Whats the reason for such a counter intuitive projection on top of the weapon?

Just to look cool??

Gryphon wrote:Huh...missed that one then. So whats the point of the big tapering bit then? Cooling would be aroudn the barrel and "chamber", while targeting is that thing along the foregrip area. Whats the reason for such a counter intuitive projection on top of the weapon?

the show close ups have a sensor thing up there. probably a Telescopic sight probably with a camera and alternate vision modes.

personally i find it interesting that the EP-37 kinda looks like an even more scifi Calico series rifle.

Gryphon wrote:Huh...missed that one then. So whats the point of the big tapering bit then? Cooling would be aroudn the barrel and "chamber", while targeting is that thing along the foregrip area. Whats the reason for such a counter intuitive projection on top of the weapon?

According to the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA production materials, the VR-052's 60mm anti-armor beam rifle (RT RPG: EP-37) is equipped with more than one ranging/sighting sensor system. The protrusion on the left side of the grip, up near the muzzle, is labeled as a laser sight ("laser seeker") and the triangular protrusion above the rifle's energy pack is also labeled as a "targeting sensor". I don't think it's an actual, conventional scope/sight, since there doesn't appear to be any kind of screen on the back and the ride armor's design inherently makes it difficult to bring the gun up to eye level. My bet would be that it's a sightlink that can connect to the pop-out target scope stored just to the right of the operator's head.

Gryphon wrote:Gotcha, a power suit smart gun link then. Laser to designate in a specific visual band, sensor to see it, data link to project it onto the inside of the face plate as a HUD.

the idea of this is just plain COOL! this makes the cyclone an awesome machine.

if I were gonna build the best all around cyclone, I think I would take the vh-041 as a base and swap out one of the sabers for an EP37. then you have missles, a saber, and a laser weapon. so you have a mix of capabilities and plenty of ammo to spare.

Gryphon wrote:Gotcha, a power suit smart gun link then. Laser to designate in a specific visual band, sensor to see it, data link to project it onto the inside of the face plate as a HUD.

Err... not quite what I was getting at. There's no mechanism in the Ride Armor or the riding suit itself to project an image directly onto the helmet visor. What I was saying was that the images or telemetry from the beam rifle's sensor(s) should be accessible for precision shooting via the pop-out target scope that's also used for missile targeting... the little display screen that pops out of the right shoulder section and lines up with the operator's eye.

sirkermittsg wrote:the idea of this is just plain COOL! this makes the cyclone an awesome machine.

It's actually a really common gimmick in mecha shows... though it's usually done on a much larger scale for the giant robots (e.g. the VF-1's gunpod camera, the scope on the GM Sniper's beam rifle, etc.). Even western sci-fi draws on it a fair bit. The title where I recall it being used the most is Warhammer 40,000, where all Astartes armor marks use a "bolter link" that can link the armor's optics to the bolter's aiming sensors.

sirkermittsg wrote:if I were gonna build the best all around cyclone, I think I would take the vh-041 as a base and swap out one of the sabers for an EP37. then you have missles, a saber, and a laser weapon. so you have a mix of capabilities and plenty of ammo to spare.

Really, you shouldn't have to remove the high-frequency blade from the arm in order to mount the rifle... it doesn't mount on the forearm plates, it's connected to the right side guard over the handlebars. I don't see any reason that a VR-041's operator couldn't just take an EP37 if he/she wanted to. (It was OSMly a new feature on the -052 series, but that's less clear in RT so I would certainly allow it on the basis of fairly standardized targeting hardware.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Gryphon wrote:Gotcha, a power suit smart gun link then. Laser to designate in a specific visual band, sensor to see it, data link to project it onto the inside of the face plate as a HUD.

Err... not quite what I was getting at. There's no mechanism in the Ride Armor or the riding suit itself to project an image directly onto the helmet visor. What I was saying was that the images or telemetry from the beam rifle's sensor(s) should be accessible for precision shooting via the pop-out target scope that's also used for missile targeting... the little display screen that pops out of the right shoulder section and lines up with the operator's eye.

that display scrren feels like an anachronism now, since we have real world equivilents (See the landwarrior Helmet display, the apache's helmet HUD, russian Helmet mounted displays+targeting, etc)

projecting images onto the face feels more scifi to us now. just look at Appleseed and Ironman.

sirkermittsg wrote:the idea of this is just plain COOL! this makes the cyclone an awesome machine.

It's actually a really common gimmick in mecha shows... though it's usually done on a much larger scale for the giant robots (e.g. the VF-1's gunpod camera, the scope on the GM Sniper's beam rifle, etc.). Even western sci-fi draws on it a fair bit. The title where I recall it being used the most is Warhammer 40,000, where all Astartes armor marks use a "bolter link" that can link the armor's optics to the bolter's aiming sensors.

i'm not sure if such al ink is part of the curent 40K Marine fluff, but it makes sense.

the Tau Empire's troops however uses extensive use of this kind of weapon to helmet link. they've even got special versions to enhance accuracy and fire control.

glitterboy2098 wrote:that display scrren feels like an anachronism now, since we have real world equivilents (See the landwarrior Helmet display, the apache's helmet HUD, russian Helmet mounted displays+targeting, etc)

Possibly, but the LandWarrior system was insufficiently robust for field use in its test form, the Apache's helmet HUD was basically the same thing as the Ride Armor's but with the projector mounted on an arm on the helmet instead of on the pilot's shoulder, etc.

glitterboy2098 wrote:projecting images onto the face feels more scifi to us now. just look at Appleseed and Ironman.

Nah, I'm all about direct-to-retina projection... or, hell, direct-to-optic nerve datalink.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'm not sure if such al ink is part of the curent 40K Marine fluff, but it makes sense.

It is... the most recent appearance of the bolter link I can recall is in the Ultramarines novel series by Graham McNeill, which laid down a big part of the fluff for the current ed. Space Marines codex. It's shown up in the Horus Heresy novels too. Both times it was on the most common pattern of bolter available in that millennium (Crusade-era's Umbra-Ferrox pattern, 41st Millennium's Godwyn Mk.Vb) on Astartes armor marks as old as the start of the crusade (Mk.II on).

Seto Kaiba wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:that display scrren feels like an anachronism now, since we have real world equivilents (See the landwarrior Helmet display, the apache's helmet HUD, russian Helmet mounted displays+targeting, etc)

Possibly, but the LandWarrior system was insufficiently robust for field use in its test form, the Apache's helmet HUD was basically the same thing as the Ride Armor's but with the projector mounted on an arm on the helmet instead of on the pilot's shoulder, etc.

just pointing out the comparisons.

and landwarrior was deployed operationally to Iraq in 2004. the program was cancelled the same year due to budgetary concerns in congress. the headmount display didn't have any ruggesdness issues in its deployment (in fact the Brigade that received them couldn't stop singing their praises)

currently the technology involved is incorporated into the Net-warrior and Future force Warrior programs. most of the landwarrior abilities have been deployed to the larger army, though the helmet mount display has been replaced by a tablet device map display instead.

sirkermittsg wrote:if I were gonna build the best all around cyclone, I think I would take the vh-041 as a base and swap out one of the sabers for an EP37. then you have missles, a saber, and a laser weapon. so you have a mix of capabilities and plenty of ammo to spare.

I think you mean the EP-40 (Rand uses it on his VR-052) not the EP-37 (Scott uses it on his VR-052).

When the NG crew gets trapped in the subway, there are a few shots with Lancer in his VR-041 Armor Mode utilizing a FAL-2 without the removal of the Blade/Shields so a EP-37 should be fine and as Seto points out can be mounted on the handlebar area in Bike Mode. The EP-40 (seen on Rand's VR-052) would require removal of at least one of the Blade/Shields.

sirkermittsg wrote:I have been reading some articles on the net regarding Special Forces within the varios militaries and police organizations around the world. These articles point to the Special forces personel in general being VERY highly trained individuals. They are known to attend the exact same schools that the rest of their fellow military and police personel attend in addition to their special forces schools.

For example, The US Air Force and the US Army have groups of men that are fully licensed air traffic controlers in addition to their fighting skills that rival other special forces personell such as the navy seals...whom they even train with and deploy together with in joint operations.

I would guess that the Military and polices forces of the UEG would have similarly trained special forces individuals within their various organizations.

To do so would almost certainly require two MOS's. This is available though the Jack of All trades special ability within the Shadow Chronicles book. However, the rules state that in the case of a JOAT, the second MOS is without bonuses (skill or attibute). Additionaly the rules are unclear if JOAT allows you to take MOS's from outside of your own OCC.

In the case of Special Forces I propose two ideas:

1. The Special Forces MOS should be made available to ALL Military and Police OCC's.
2. When a player chooses to use the Special Forces MOS as one of their two JOAT MOS's,
the second MOS can be taken at FULL bonuses.

What are your thoughts on this?

Well, looking at the way the discussion is going, we probably need to set some ground rules to differentiate "elite" from "special operations".

First off, they're not necessarily the same. A unit can be designated "elite" because a) it only accepts the "best" recruits & troopers into its ranks, b) they "expect more" from their troopers because of the unit's lineage & battle history, or even c) because the warlord/sponsor in question has the money/connections to get them the best equipment & training money/influence can buy. However, it can also be designated elite because a) they add additional training beyond the basic skill set, or further hone the existing skills, or b) they're trained in specific tactics & military history that allows them to excel in certain battle situations. In the latter 2 cases, they're also likely to earn the "special operations" tag, because they're usually training for specific combat situations that the average front-line grunt won't expect to see.

For the most part, whether or not a unit is "elite" is more for game & back story flavor than actual O.C.C. changes. Some exceptions may occur -- for example, if you include the US Army's 82nd Airborne in the UEDF's command structure, then obviously anyone that's part of that unit should have some sort of Parachuting skill...since that's what the 82nd Airborne does.

For "special operations" units, take a good long look at the type of group you're trying to adapt. For example, US Army Rangers can transfer in from existing units, or they can come fresh out of training (provided they've earned their Airborne badge first). That allows for both experience and 1st-level characters to be considered Rangers....which means that you're most likely looking at some sort of skill package (possibly even a 2nd MOS) and/or additional attribute requirements. OTOH, the US Army Special Forces ("Green Berets") only accept experienced enlisted & commissioned personnel (minimum of E-4 for enlisted, IIRC, and either O-3 or "O-2 under consideration for promotion to O-3" for commissioned), and they have an age limitation (at least 20 & no older than 30-35...although the latter may have been changed in the past decade due to ongoing warfare). For these guys, you're looking at a high probability of either an O.C.C. change or an MOS change [note: although the latter doesn't exist per se in the rules, you could probably treat it as a limited O.C.C. change, but only the specific MOS skills are affected], in addition to attribute requirements. Note that most civilian/police "special ops" units, like SWAT or GSG9, also have age and/or experience requirements that preclude having some "shave tail" fresh out of the academy picking "that" O.C.C. to start with

glitterboy2098 wrote:currently the technology involved is incorporated into the Net-warrior and Future force Warrior programs. most of the landwarrior abilities have been deployed to the larger army, though the helmet mount display has been replaced by a tablet device map display instead.

's nice and all, but it's not really applicable to Robotech... as the available evidence suggests the universe branches off of real history sometime prior to 1995.

ShadowLogan wrote:I think you mean the EP-40 (Rand uses it on his VR-052) not the EP-37 (Scott uses it on his VR-052).

The 40mm pistol, which the RT RPG calls the EP-40, does have the same two-part sensor combo that the larger 60mm rifle's equipped with... a laser seeker on one side and a top-mounted targeting sensor.

green.nova343 wrote:Well, looking at the way the discussion is going, we probably need to set some ground rules to differentiate "elite" from "special operations".

Granted, but we run into an additional setting-specific problem in Robotech in that there are no special forces seen in the material, and therefore we don't know how they're differentiated from the rank-and-file. The few "elite" units which do appear in Robotech don't seem to be elite for any reason other than the unit is led by a particularly accomplished and respected soldier. Beyond that, there's nothing to set them apart, since they're not shown to be especially choosey about recruits, their equipment is no different from what's issued to regular units, there's no indication of special training, and the unit's reputation as elite is invariably connected to its leader's prowess rather than the whole unit's abilities.

To give an example, the Macross Saga's one "elite" unit is the (VF-84) Skull squadron... and they clearly don't accept just the best recruits, since markings from the show indicate Vermilion squad is a component of it and clumsy oaf Ben Dixon got in just fine. They never really make a meal out of the unit's reputation, even though it's hinted in "From the Stars" to have been a counterpart to the famous real-world "Jolly Rogers". They're not shown to receive any non-standard equipment or training, flying the exact same planes as everyone else. It's pretty much entirely the reps of the unit's leaders that make the unit elite... celebrated global war ace Roy Fokker, future UEEF supremo Rick Hunter, celebrated 1st Robotech War ace Max Sterling, and his daughter Maia (who is treated as awesome-by-associaton). The same goes for other "elite" units in Robotech, like the Wolfe Pack (notorious for its leader Jonathan Wolfe, and NOBODY ELSE), or Wolf Squadron (which was another notorious legacy command, passed from Jack Archer to Jack Baker to Jack Candlestickmaker Daryl Taylor, before apparently being disestablished due to excessive casualties).

green.nova343 wrote:For the most part, whether or not a unit is "elite" is more for game & back story flavor than actual O.C.C. changes.

Pretty much, yes... its chief application in practical terms is giving a handy excuse for why a single unit is constantly being thrown onto the front lines every time there's an enemy attack.

Seto Kaiba wrote:'s nice and all, but it's not really applicable to Robotech... as the available evidence suggests the universe branches off of real history sometime prior to 1995.

Well, you could make the argument that the Modular Self-Deployed Recon Camera used by Louie in Prelude to Battle and The Trap was a sort-of primitive version of what use of Land Warrior was supposed to accomplish. He sort of intimates its old gear ("Why can't somebody else draw the moldy thing for a change?").....