Perpsective on Air Travel

[Mack]

In Merc Ops there's a company that does air transport across North America.

Personally, I don't care for it. I prefer it to be an adventure to traverse the continent, and air travel bypasses that. I do like a suggestion that I read here on the forum a few years ago (I think it was Killer Cyborg's) that the liberal addition of Air Elementals in the atmosphere would help keep players on the ground.

[Icefalcon]

There could be multiple reasons for the lack of air travel. For instance, the proliferation of flying monsters can make the attrition rate against aircraft slightly prohibitive for any small nation to support. Add to that, the fact that aircraft require ground support (radar, communications, runways for conventional aircraft or landing fields for hover style) and lots of aircraft have a limited flying time. This alone would make flying about everywhere kind of risky. Also consider the fact of freak weather (whether caused by magic, monsters, ley lines or even d-shifting) will make flying conditions difficult. This all also does not take into account rival nations. No nation is going to let a rival nations aircraft fly through its territory unmolested.

One of the largest reasons, at least in my opinion, is the uncertainty of what they will find. Nobody is going to want to walk back if their air transport is trashed.

[Nightmask]

I would also add that satellite navigation isn't an option, radar could be useless due to rift interference, and in RIFTs earth there probably aren't a whole lot of pubic airfields and refueling stations... which would mean going up and planning to always come back down somewhere very safe.

People were circumnavigating the globe long before things like Satellite Navigation and Radar and many aircraft run off nuclear engines so don't need refueling just rest for the turbines after so many hours. People are still going to engage in air transportation even when there are hazards to watch out for, just because it's Rifts Earth doesn't mean air travel should be a death sentence, the proliferation of aircraft we see in the books contradicts the idea that air travel is that deadly and probably closer to how often a train or stage coach would get robbed in old west days rather than 'Death Awaits You In The Skies!'.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Lets also not forget that between them the CS and Free Qubec own the airspace right down the middle of the US, and almost undoubtably will heavily regulate air traffic as well as not allowing any D-Bees or mages to pass. And shoot down any aircraft that dosn't comply.

[taalismn]

Navigation as well...while some geological features haven't changed, navigating by old pre-Rifts book maps isn't exactly easy, and surface features can be obscured by bad weather.
Look at the history of air travel in America. Early pilots followed railroads and rivers. The mails flew paths from searchlight-equipped way stations that were later equipped with radio beacons. Now while big nations like the CS have set up their own navigation networks that anybody with the right equipment can use, these networks typically don't extend out into the wilderness, and anybody setting up their own can expect a visit from curious, if not necessarily hostile(but who wants to take the chance?), CS scout units.

[taalismn]

It's the age of the bush pilots, dead reckoning, seat of the pants flying, and inventive psionic/magic gizmos.
Knowing a safe route, and being able to fly it reliably, is a major advantage for a small company on Rifts Earth going into transportation and it can earn them good money flying cargo or charter. Of course, if a route is TOO profitable, somebody else might take notice and decide it's worth tailing your planes, or breaking in to see what you're using for instruments.

[flatline]

Wouldn't inertial navigation systems be good enough to allow dead reckoning without having to fly low enough to be heard or seen by nasties on the ground?

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

Something else to consider is the number of large air vehicles in use. Examples Triax (in WB5) has IIRC 1/2-dozen of those super sonic transports, the CS only had a handful of those Cmd Death's Heads (split into 3, forget the name and to lazy to look it up). It might be that yes air transport is available, but for massive cargo endeavors they are actually pretty small in available number instead relying on ground/water transport when ever possible.

The bulk of air vehicles in the market may be more geared toward small party transport (your cesna's, fighters, etc) as opposed to large cargo haulers (747s, C-5s, C-17s, C-130s, etc).

[azazel1024]

Wouldn't inertial navigation systems be good enough to allow dead reckoning without having to fly low enough to be heard or seen by nasties on the ground?

--flatline

Yes. Inertial navigation systems were invented for the Apollo space program back in the early 1960s. They were good enough then to fly from, I think it was, Boston to LA non-stop with NO visual navigation and arrive within about 2-3 miles of the intended destination.

A good inertial navigation system today is a lot more precise. GPS is used because it is even MORE precise and less expensive. An inertial navigation system for, say, a missile, might land a cruise missile within 300ft of its target after traveling 500 miles. Fairly accurate. A GPS system can manage to land that cruise missile within 30ft (or less) after an "unlimited" distance. A lot better.

GPS is also smaller and cheaper than a really great inertial navigation system. You can still make a good intertial navigation system smaller than a cell phone and they aren't that expensive, they just don't have the level of precision of GPS and it is possible, however hard, to mess up inertial navigation.

For flying a plane a few hundred miles or even across NA, they'd work just fine to pretty accurately get you within a mile or two of you location.

Considering that vast number of vehicles mentioned in the books, air travel is realitively common, especially among the big powers and within their borders. Even outside, it shouldn't be that rare. Most towns of a decent size probably have at least a semi leveled dirt/grass field for the occasional rare bush flight. It is likely fairly rare that you find a REAL air strip, let alone an airport though. That and because of all of the badness, the level of danger is probably several orders of magnitude higer than it is current day.

Don't forget though that most airplanes, even the slower prop planes are a fair amount faster than most monsters and a lot of them can fly higher than them as well. As for your average bandit just wanting to take a pot shot, either the plane is flying too low to have much of a line of site or if flying at medium to high altitudes, most rifles max out around 2,000-4,000ft range. Maybe a mile or so. A mile high is barely scratching medium altitude and I bet most bandits aren't going to simply "waste" 10k-20k credits to throw a medium missile or two (or even a few thousand for a short range missile) just for the LOLZ.

Also most aircraft listed are MDC vehicles and a lot of them have SOME kind of weapons on board as well. They aren't exactly fragile eggs with no defenses. They might not be MBTs, but a lot of them are not completely defenseless nor are most of them slow.

Probably your odds of getting to your destination safe are a lot higher than circumnavigating the globe 500 years ago was, let alone even sailing from Europe to North America was in the early to mid 1600's.

There probably is not extensive commerical travel for two big reasons. The CS basically owns transcontinential flight since they control the middle of the US (forcing most people to either be on friendly enough terms with the CS, or having to detour way south or way north). Next, flight isn't going to be super cheap. There is higher risk than there is today and a lot of people are not generally as well off in Rifts compared to modern day 1st world countries. On top of that, a lot of people just don't have a huge reason to travel. As a farmer, why do you need to fly 800 miles away? Or a leather worker? Even machinist?

Adventurers probably wouldn't have a hard time catching a flight from any major kingdom to most anywhere (so long as it isn't too dangerous). Even minor kingdoms or large independent towns a flight shouldn't be too hard. However in the smaller ones, you are probably looking at a bush plane, single or twin engine and you might only be able to hop a flight 100-300 miles (owner isn't willing to fly further away, might not have the range, etc) and it might only be to a single destination, like say a moderate sized town 200 miles outside of Whykin in to Whykin itself. Or 300 miles from Old Bones to Old Bones, etc. That means also that probably it is going to be you and a large backpack and maybe a medium sized duffel each is all that is going to fit in for the 3-10 passengers that the plane can fit.

You aren't going to be pulling your hover bike in to it, nor driving your APC in to the cargo hold to catch a flight (and most adventurers are more than hoofing it on their own feet). Bigger cities/kingdoms you probably could charter a medium sized or larger plane or a real cargo plane if you want to travel with some hover bikes or motorcycles or even loading your APC or two in to the hold along with all your adventuring gear and your PC/NPC buddies for a flight somewhere. You are also probably going to pay through the nose for all of that lift capacity. I think Merc Ops has some info on that, but I'd suspect we are talking in the low tens of thousands to charter something like a C-130 for a flight from anywhere in the Eastern US to another location in the Eastern US. A simple bush plane for a 300 mile flight to the nearest big city for an adventuring group of 5 with just what is on their backs might be more like 2-4k credits.

[kaid]

I've been playing since 1990, off and on.

One thing I can't seem to find that "bugs" me a little bit is a referenceable reason that air travel isn't more common.
We have a trade route over land in the west, CS using the Mississippi and its tributaries as a "vital" trade route, when air travel seems so much safer.

A few books have examples of large air transports from the coalition, and others show huge truck haulers.

What's stopping nations or PCs from loading up into a hover style jet and flying over California and seeing what's up? (other than the huge new mountains, but you get my example)

I want to explain this to my characters, and I have come up with a few rationales for my campaign, but was wondering if any of the books discussed this and I missed it.



(One factor may be lack of nav satellites, but the CS and NGR are pulling off trade across the Atlantic somehow, so that's not a show stopper)

Just curious...any thoughts?

I think the biggest problem for most is simply the dangers of visibility. You are up in the air clearly demonstrating you are either magically enhanced or financially well off and so its very likely some bandit/horrible rift monsters will see you as prey. For a military like the CS states it can be somewhat "safe" due to firepower and convoys be a nasty enough target you get less yahoos flipping mini missiles and spells at you. For normal adventurers that level of safety goes way down unless you have a very well armed group.

Also unless you have access to something like a deaths head transport flight is a bit impractical unless you are dealing with bush planes or vtols just due to not knowing a safe landing spot. Most of the other VTOL's/hover vehicles like sky kings players would have normal access too have pretty low flight ceilings. If you fly at less than 5k feet you are asking for trouble and will likely get ambushed hard and often by bandits trying to knock you down to loot your stuff.

All that said flight does have advantages the biggest of which is speed that which does not knock you out of the sky fast will get left in the dust pretty quickly. Most monsters that can fly are not very fast so if you can break away from them you can get away.

Something like the deaths head transport is just about ideal for rifts earth. Big/durable/ VTOL take off capability but still maintaining a nice max flight ceiling and fast enough to outrun all but fighter craft. But they still have the problem of visibility and are very obvious when they are around and very obvious when they are landing which can ring the dinner gong for bad critters over a large area.

[taalismn]

+1

Other things to consider is all of the tiny kingdoms out there who probably don't like being flown through. Not that they necessarily have the means to threaten characters who fly high, but if it keeps happening perhaps they will hire mercs? That could be a funny part to play out:"Exit the airspace immediately!" "Huh? It's like 100 square miles. Why should I?" "Do it or face the wrath of King Steve!"
Not likely to happen as much outside the midwest, but other things for characters to deal with.

And there's always the 'new' kingdoms that pop up out of almost nowhere and want to establish their territory and rep by downing a few 'aerial raiders' to impress their subjects if nobody else.


And in the East you have the Shemarrian Nation, and less frequently the Splugorth(Kittani aerial overwatch would LOVE to engage in soem air to air combat for sport).
And frankly I'd be tickled if the Beastmen of MadHaven kludged up some open-seat biplanes to shoot up anybody cruising near their City.

[azazel1024]

Counter to invisibility superior, see the invisible.

One thing to consider with bandits though, they are either in it for the Lolz or they are in it for the profit.

Just like ye old piracy, a pirate/bandit isn't going to go after someone resonably well protected. They generally aren't trying to seize the 24 gun galleon with 44 gun 4th rate frigate escort. They are going after the 6 gun ship sloop traveling alone. Also you tend not to find pirate groups with half a dozen 2nd rate ships of the line.

Similar analogies to Rifts times. You aren't generally going to find huge bandit groups. Oh, you might find ones with maybe even a couple of hundred people for the really big ones maybe with a few planes, PA, etc. However, in general you have two issues once you get "too large". Either A) it attracts the attention of major commercial interest who then hires a sufficient mercenary force to deal with the bandits, B) it attracts the attention of a sufficiently large enough kingdom/major/minor power that they stamp them out or C) they get large enough that they either fall apart from sheer size and/or they become organized enough that they start to settle down and likely moderate (super evil bandit group starts kingdom and stays in power is generally not something you are going to find often with some limited exception both in Rifts and the real world, such as the Babary Coast and Pecos bandit kingdoms).

Try to have a nice sized bandit pressence anywhere modestly civilized, such as the NA mid-atlantic area, and you are likely to run in to enough small to mid-sized kingdoms or commercial concerns who have a vested interest in keeping people who tend to prey on trade away. Merc Town isn't going to be too happy about it, Whykin wouldn't be, Shemmarian nation might not be depending, Kingsdale wouldn't be, some of the Federation of Magic wouldn't be (either for legitimate trade concerns, like Dweomer/Stormspire, or because it is muscling in on THEIR racket or a lot of the others) and those are just some of the larger ones.

That doesn't mean small bandit groups wouldn't be rather plentiful. It also means that you likely aren't going to find groups large enough who'd be more than happy to try to tackle something like an MDC and armed cargo plane with a couple of medium flying PAs or a jet fighter/skycycle or two flying shotgun. Too much risk for potentially not enough reward (do you want to possibly inccur millions of credits in damage to whatever small amount of equipment your group has, plus possibly getting a number of you killed, only to find out that converted MDC C-130 with a pair of skycycles riding shotgun was hauling a bunch of farm equipment and generators?).

Bandits are a lot more likely to either take potshots at smaller flights for the Lolz, or attempt to take something down or force something down that is rather vulnerable. The more vulnerable ones are most likely to either fly in pretty safe areas and/or are going to be those that are likely hugging the ground, etc.

Flying through more vulnerable areas it is easy enough to just arrange a convoy. Even a big bandit group probably isn't going to want to tackle 5 cargo planes with a couple of fighters flying escort, a gun ship and half a dozen sky cycles.

[DhAkael]

One thing I've always used is the "random weather" dice I picked up ages ago at my local hobby store, or failing that, I use a little Infernum Ex-Machnia and have things like flocks of demonical posessed crows / ravens / sea-gulls fly into the wind screens and air intakes. This espcially if the players get a bit too dependant on over-flying.

That, and if you aren't part of the CS, you are automaticaly assumed to be a commie-mutant traitor that needs to be shot-down...because Friend Compu -ahem- I mean his most holy God-Emporer Prossek of the plot-immunity says so.

[taalismn]

You could fly whole convoys over CS territory with none the wiser. If you happened to be close enough to them you might be able to sense the presence of magic, but not really anything you can target with, and they could just temporarily divert course. Even if discovered temporary force field generators intercept missiles before they hit, Impervious to Energy stops all energy weapons, and defensive shields and onboard Deflect spells(personal touch) defend against Rail Guns(if they are in range). IT's the only way to fly .

Haven't we seen dogboys in the art on skycycles? Word gets out on such tricks, you can expect to see more Dogboys and Psi-Stalkers assigned to tooling around in the sky sniffing for invisibles. True. you can see them alot sooner than they can sniff you, but a leaked word and lots of CS sniffers, and that detour through CS territory gets a lot more interesting.
All part of the fun and games of being a smuggler.

[taalismn]

Notes long paragraph in Triax 2 on dimensional anomalies that prevent continental travel, which is then negated by appropriate routes known by Jinna Gir-Song, Chiang Ku dragon...

Bandits are not a real threat to supersonic or slightly below supersonic aircraft, with the exception of the Juicer Wing. If they can afford fighter jets or helicopters, that's the richest bandit group I have ever seen. Monsters don't fly anywhere near the speed or altitude transport planes could fly. Mercenary units, Coalition, NGR, Lazlo, Sovietski, Warlords of Russia, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, the Geofront (China), Northern Gun, the Manistique Imperium, the Colorado Baronies, Arzno, the Phoenix Empire, Tolkeen, Tundra Rangers, and the Splugorth are the only powers that really have major reasons to build an air force. The silly idea that you couldn't construct aircraft for rough or small scale airports is one of the great holes on Rifts Earth.

Sometimes you gotta spend money to get money, and there's always defectors from the big nations. Of course, if you're entering the military just to make off with an expensive jet in order to make yourself king somewhere, you better fly FAR away from the people you stole your aircraft from, because the rest of that airforce(and whatever special forces they have) will have some serious words and bullets to share with you if they come across you again. A bandit(not a full-on merc) you find with an jet fighter is either VERY well connected, very stupid, VERY far from where he started out from, or is part of somebody's covert ops scheme to hose somebody else(infiltration or privateer scheme).

AS for availability of aircraft? Well, most commercial aircraft are SDC; they'd been blown away in the Coming of the Rifts by all amnenr of things. Not many military aircraft in there in the here-and-now have rough field capability....in the Golden Age, this changes somewhat, what with VTOLs becoming practical again with the more efficient powerplants, and those that survive will be much sought after. Emergeing aircraft designers will be starting from scratch, however, in many cases...reliant on lucky finds of still-reverse-engineerable examples, or rare complete aeronautical engineering and service manuals/databases(depending on freely distributed and backed-up on disaster-resistant media they were in the Golden Age...I know MY library copies of Chilton's aren't enough to let people build full cars from scratch without extra R&D, let alone ruggerized VTOL aircraft).

[Shark_Force]

indeed. you *could* construct S/VTOL aircraft in rifts. but up until recently, there haven't exactly been a ton of superpowers able to to R&D. it's mostly been whatever you could dig up was yours.

most of the civilian craft will have been destroyed simply by time and the fact that even getting a "scratch" in an MDC fight will render them inoperable. most military craft will have been destroyed due to the fact that they were likely used to engage hordes of demonic invaders and eventually got picked apart a bit at a time by a nigh-endless wave of monsters.

so you're left with the leftovers. and true flying vehicles just aren't really going to be terribly common in the first place; bear in mind that "hover" vehicles in rifts can in some cases go 300 feet up in the air, for example. the need for something that goes 20,000 feet up for the average person is simply not going to be a common one, even in golden age rifts earth.

largely, you're going to be stuck with what people could figure out from their knowledge of aerodynamics. advanced aircraft don't generally get designed by a small 1-2 person operation on a shoestring budget after all... they're made by large corporations with in some cases billions of dollars in their budgets and hundreds of workers at large R&D facilities with all kinds of specialized equipment.

and who's had that kind of resources to throw around on rifts earth? well, the CS (who just recently pulled an air force out of nowhere - i'd have preferred that they had at least a minimal one beforehand to explain how they suddenly developed a super-special-awesome air force, but whatever), triax/NGR (already has one), atlantis (well, they have a space fleet... not strictly speaking a dedicated air force... but i'm not going to try to argue that point with them too strongly )... anyone else, really?

[taalismn]

i well, the CS (who just recently pulled an air force out of nowhere - i'd have preferred that they had at least a minimal one beforehand to explain how they suddenly developed a super-special-awesome air force, but whatever),

I STILL think there should be a Chaos Earth version of the Death's Head Transport...something that either looks like an extra-chubby wingless C-5 on a saucer, or an industrial lifter saucer with an upper cargo deck/pod.

[flatline]

See Invisible is useless against an invisible flying target if there are clouds in between.

On a clear day, it still might be hard to see an invisible object flying 30,000 feet above you even if you can See Invisible. Although, if it leaves a contrail...

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

see the invisible also has a range. 120 feet for the psychic power, 200 feet for the spell.

it's *great* if you know where to look generally. it's virtually useless for trying to reliably intercept flying invisible vehicles with your own patrols. it would require a wall of flying psychics for the CS to actually be able to see a flying invisible vehicle... you'd be much, much, much better sticking with the dog boys and psi stalkers, for at least a few reasons.

1) see the invisible burns resources. dog boys and psi-stalkers have a passive sense.
2) see the invisible has a very short range. dog boys and psi-stalkers have much better range (though still short in comparison to radar).
3) every dog boy, of which the CS has many, can sense the presence of active magic. furthermore, they're going to want those dog boys patrolling anyways, in many cases. not so much when it comes to, say, psi-battalion, which has much fewer troops available and mostly wants to use them for specific operations rather than assigning them to randomly patrol (now, if they *know* someone or something important is coming through, they'd quite possibly assign some psi-battalion members to the area).

even then, it's still not really very likely the CS could reliably intercept flying vehicles. they have a huge border, and the amount of flying vehicles it would take to actually secure the whole thing (rather than simply having patrols come through every so often, and fast response teams to deal with any problems) is staggering.

[Blue_Lion]

Didn't one of the world books cover difrent forms of travel in detale think either orginal vampire kingdom or SA 1.

[Blue_Lion]

see the invisible also has a range. 120 feet for the psychic power, 200 feet for the spell.

it's *great* if you know where to look generally. it's virtually useless for trying to reliably intercept flying invisible vehicles with your own patrols. it would require a wall of flying psychics for the CS to actually be able to see a flying invisible vehicle... you'd be much, much, much better sticking with the dog boys and psi stalkers, for at least a few reasons.

1) see the invisible burns resources. dog boys and psi-stalkers have a passive sense.
2) see the invisible has a very short range. dog boys and psi-stalkers have much better range (though still short in comparison to radar).
3) every dog boy, of which the CS has many, can sense the presence of active magic. furthermore, they're going to want those dog boys patrolling anyways, in many cases. not so much when it comes to, say, psi-battalion, which has much fewer troops available and mostly wants to use them for specific operations rather than assigning them to randomly patrol (now, if they *know* someone or something important is coming through, they'd quite possibly assign some psi-battalion members to the area).

even then, it's still not really very likely the CS could reliably intercept flying vehicles. they have a huge border, and the amount of flying vehicles it would take to actually secure the whole thing (rather than simply having patrols come through every so often, and fast response teams to deal with any problems) is staggering.

Well i whould think with there dedicated fighters and lots of Samas and lots of radar stations they could verry well mantain a effective abilty to intercept any thing in there air space, Or shoot them down with ground bassed long range missle batteries at there many fortified bunkers. Gunning down fliers whould be high on my protect my space from demon invaders list of things to make shure get done. They may have huge air space but when you have 100+ range on dedicated anti air assest it starts to look allot smaller.

[azazel1024]

Yeah intercepting flights would be trivial for the CS. Now stealth planes or invisible ones would be a different story.

As for resources, considering the expense of a lot of hover vehicles and stuff, the expense of making a rough strip capable light MDC single engine prop plane powered by a aviation quality gasoline recipricating 4 stroke 4 cylinder engine would be trivial.

Significantly cheaper than a basic nuclear powered hover bike (of which there seem to be thousands at the very least).

So yeah, aviation assets would still be pretty damned common. MDC materials make just about any vehicle rough strip capable, even if it doesn't make them short strip.

Some very light MDC tires, air frame and suspension and simply little bumps aren't going to trash the suspension and resonable design would allow them to soak up the bumps enough not to nose in to the ground hitting some.

Considering the proliferation of PA and flying PA through out NA, well in to the tens of thousands of units (even if we don't know exactly how many, and I am counting just the ones outside of CS control), the fact that there wouldn't at least be low thousands of light air craft, mostly prop propelled reciprocating gas powered air planes (and probably plenty of turbo props and even jet engines) is silly.

Very basic aeronautical engineering was done with little knowledge back in the 10's and 20's. Heck even in to the 30's. It was getting pretty advanced by the 30's let alone 40's and later. However, some very basic computer programs and the computing power of something like what hand computers likely can manage in post-Rifts times means it should be pretty trivial for anyone with a little drive to easily create something like a C-130 (MDC version). It might not be THE most efficient it possibly could. Its propulsion systems might not be super cutting edge. It will however fly just fine and be just dandy for reliability. The principals of aeronautical engineering are not THAT advanced.

I have a couple of college courses (all of 3, including a very basic freshman seminar intro course for 1 credit hour) and I damn well could design a basic plane without TOO much skull sweat. Oh, it won't be the most efficient, best, etc, etc, ad nauseum, but it'll work just fine.

[Icefalcon]

For anyone interested, here is a link to a site run by the Smithsonian Air and Space museum on the history of aeronautics. http://www.airspacemag.com/?ref=home

The articles you can read on this site tell you a lot about the various dangers of early and modern flight.

One of the other dangers of high altitude is ice. Its build-up can cause serious havoc with engines.

For those that think that building an airplane is easy, you should read some of these articles, especially in the "How things work" section of the site. Even prop planes are not as easy as you think. Most people do not realize that even with those types, the propellers were attached to hydraulics that changed their angles.
I do know that those with know-how will be able to build a simple prop plane or even jet-engine aircraft. Just remember, even a simple plane requires expensive equipment. Building one with MDC materials is slightly more so (requires different equipment to cut and shape MDC materials). Even being built out of MDC materials, a crash is no joke. Just because the ground is SDC does not mean a MDC aircraft is going to survive.

Also, a note about navigation. In the 1920's, pilots navigated by sight. Which means they had to lean out the window and look at land features. Radar was being developed as early as 1886 but was not put into production (for use to detect object, pulsed system) until 1934. It really wasn't refined until 1943 into the form that we (monopulse system) recognize today. It was the British (in 1934) that used it first to detect aircraft. Radar is absolutely essential for modern avionics.

There are also several other factors that go into a plane to make it safe to travel over a certain height (such as pressurized cockpit and wing de-icing systems) if you do not want to limit the height of the aircraft to a couple thousand feet. Keep in mind, the simpler the craft, the lower the flight ceiling. The lower the flight ceiling, the more danger from the ground (a decent laser rifle has a range between 2000 to 4000 feet). As for speed, as laser travels at the speed of light, so I don't think it is going to have a problem catching your plane.

As for dangers in the skies, there are multiple creature that could be there to kill you. Some examples include: Dragons (Conversion Book 1), Dragondactyl (CB1), Gromek (CB1), Harpie (CB1), Leatherwing (New West), Black Wing Monster Men (Spirit West), Man-Eagles (Spirit West), Plumed Serpent (Spirit West), Flying Tiger (South America 2, also capable of Mach flight), Gargoyles (Triax and NGR), and the list goes on and on. As for technological danger, there are missiles, flying power armors, hovercraft, other planes, sky cycles, and a host of other dangers. Going to fly really high to avoid the dangers lower down? Get shot from orbit by satellites under control of the space factions.

In the long run, dangers of air travel are many, especially in Rifts. I won't say that it is impossible for smaller powers or even individuals to own an air asset, just really difficult to keep it in the air (whether due to combat, regular maintenance, environmental issues or just navigational data) over the long haul. It is one of the reasons that those that are crazy enough to take to the air make good money transporting goods.

[Comrade Corsarius]

I look at it this way:

Somebody has to transport all that Wilks', NG, and Bandito Arms stuff around. The fact that these companies seem to have a dealer or storefront in most large towns and cities indicates that there is a thriving commerce network. To move this stuff around, you need large haulers, so semi-trailers or the rifts equivalent, and lots of them.

The Colorato Baronies uses TW Iron Horses to move large amounts of stuff around, and that got me thinking: Why not the thing that it's in the RMB and promptly forgotten by everyone? Sky Ships.

These things can be big 2-3 masted clipper ships, sailing over the threats on land, but with sufficient protection to avoid aerial predators. With the right TW enhancements, they can have impressive shields. Now while ley lines don't run everywhere, they run a lot of places. Sky ships would easily be able to cover most of the continent, with regular trucking going out to towns/villages from the main transport hubs.

Sure, it's still more dangerous than today, but it's quite clear from the black market, NG, and Triax distribution networks that it is BEING DONE SOMEHOW.

For my adventuring group and I, living in a TW Sky ship and running cargo/passengers from A-B for a living (as well as regular postal runs etc) would be a great way to see the world and sustain ourselves with liveable income.

It would be like a combination of Futurama's realisation that a delivery boy job can be awesome, and Firefly.

What's not to love about that?

EDIT: Oh, and BTW: Even with nasty things happening to the planet and whatnot, I think it's bloody idiotic to assume that people are still using 'pre-rifts maps'. Seriously? I'm not using a map from 1912. Most of that isn't relevant. Nope, instead I use a map that cartographers, intellectuals, and adventurers have made for me that I can purchase, and get a new one each year. People have been making maps since they've been making paper, so I would assume that there are plenty of up-to-date regional maps to be had in Rifts earth

[flatline]

see the invisible also has a range. 120 feet for the psychic power, 200 feet for the spell.

What ranges apply to creatures who can naturally see the invisible or astral travelers?

--flatline

[Comrade Corsarius]

Not at all. You do, however, realise that while 'slow', sky ships do travel at several hundred KPH? While not sufficient to outrun jet fighters and flying powered armour, it's still able to get anywhere on the continental US within a day. Certainly with less peril and obstruction than a land convoy. Also... A return to Zeppelins? How is this a bad thing? (You're talking to a fairly hard-core steampunker. See my photos in my sig!)

The BoM indicates that six TW mods can be made to these things, so here are mine:
1) Ley line booster (why not? Increases speed and everything else)
2) Enhanced speed and manoeverability (15ppe/hr, with booster engaged would push it up to 435kph)
3) Impervious to fire (a nice benefit against certain pesky energy weapons, and can run at 5ppe/hr for 'air conditioning' in hot climates)
4) Protective energy field (20 mins/10ppe and gives 50MDC/10 ppe. This simply rocks. A mage can draw 10ppe/lvl/hr from a line without using his own resources (more if it's midday/midnight etc). Say the mage is lvl5, that's 50ppe, which works out to a further 250MDC force shield. I do believe this would also repel boarders quite nicely)
5) De-Icer (de-ices the ship, allowing it to work in extreme northern/southern latitudes or cross cold mountain ranges)
6) Environmental Hazard Defence System (5ppe/40 minutes and gives everyone on board breathe without air. Essential if travelling into unknown parts or if people are using gas missiles/grenades against you).

Weapons are (in its civil form) two deck-mounted Starfire cannons.

I would equip everyone on board with TW Drop Chutes (Black Vault page 28) or a variant thereof for lower altitudes as 'life rings' in case of 'man overboard'.

I've been thinking of this for some time, and have thought perhaps I should design several ships, as well as TW Ironclads and a section on 'the Colorado Navy' as a Rifter submission.

My ship is named the 'Phidippedes' (look him up if you feel like it). I feel that this type of ship would have been used in the Tolkeen wars quite considerably, with many modifications (Mark I to Mark VIII) and named the Interceptor class. My ship (for storywise) is the final export version to be built before the war, making it "The last of the Mk VIII Interceptors"

I also enjoy lame puns.

[Comrade Corsarius]

I know, I love the Zeppelin idea too, I'm a big steampunk fan, but it like the Sky Ships have limitations. I'm trying to infer they are slow by Rifts standards, they can be outrun by hovercycles, Terrain Hoppers and even Jet Packs. That, combined with their low flight ceiling(1000ft), and inability to leave ley lines means they are susceptible to just about every attacker with a ranged weapon. Aside from being off the ground they really aren't a safer method of transport than any other hover vehicles. If you really want to go that route I suggest checking out the back of Splynn Dimensional Market where is talks about their TW versions. Stronger, higher flying, even faster on ley lines, though much more expensive and the use Eylor Eyes for a power source. If you like steampunk, how about a flying paddle wheeler fired by an elemental instead of coal? I think the TW Ironhorse for the most part replaces the idea of the Sky Ship, as they can carry way more cargo and passengers, along with being able to jump to other Nexus points. The Sky Ship is probably delegated to personal owners and small shipments, as they probably wouldn't be able to compete on the bulk rates the TW Ironhorses could offer. About the only benefit I can see versus regular hover vehicles(since they can't leave the ley line) is that they are cheap to produce and cost almost nothing to run. However, if TW is the method, any hover vehicle with an electric engine could just be TW converted, so they could go wherever they wanted AND run better on a ley line. Regular TW conversion also allows for aircraft, which is more along the lines of the original post topic of travel by air.

Thanks for the Elemental idea. Now I'll definitely get into writing up something for TW ironclads (such as the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia. Man, I've got to get this all written down while I think of it). I've always felt that the way Rifts is written is a little odd when it comes to ley lines. The maps show the MAJOR lines, but I would expect there to be minor lines pretty much cris-crossing the globe. I believe there would be few places you couldn't go on a wingboard/tree trimmer/sky ship. I would expect, though, for the bonuses to be only applicable on the major lines. Certainly, ley lines (as defined by mysticism today) seem to connect major population centres, particularly ones with the word 'ley' in them (such as Alderley, for example).

I like the Iron Horse, but remember that large multi-masted ships can carry a heck of a lot. The sky ships are also VTOL (requiring 'fly' or equivalent to be cast into them to make them go). The iron horse is slower than a sky ship, too. I'd see it as a 'road vs rail' argument for carrying cargo. Both are relevant.

- Yes, sky ships are slow (versus any sort of tech) but are still faster than most of their non-tech threats.
- Yes, sky ships fly low, but can be fitted with invisibility, or shadow meld for night operations. Their shield can be quite potent (if there are several mages on board, the shield can be kept up for a very long duration at high MDC levels.
- I see their main benefit in carrying VERY large loads, or large amounts of bulk cargo. They can do that quicker than any land based unit, and the large ones (based on tea-clipper style ships) could carry an impressive amount. Alternatively, they could be refitted for passenger carriage.
- Smaller ones, I agree, would be for adventurers or charter companies, as they compete directly with other technologies (such as actual zeppelins, large aircraft, behemoth explorers that have been converted to freighters, etc).
- On top of which, I'm pretty sure that everyone who saw Peter Pan as a kid was entranced by the idea of a magical flying pirate ship, right?
- I'm not saying that TW Sky Ships are the ONLY method of cargo carriage, just a good method of BULK cargo carriage. Certainly there are benefits and negatives to all.

[Comrade Corsarius]

I love the airship ideas too. I've always wanted to play a game that had them as a main focus, whether it be a high fantasy or steampunk / futuristic style. While they present a huge, somewhat slower target, I'd think they would be easier to defend in the sense that you can see all the way around them. With all hands on deck and sufficient magery, it'd be a tough nut to crack. Splugorth slaver barges aren't fighter-jet fast in nature, but they still pack a whallop and a challenge.

Looking forward to see what you come up with, Corsarius. I dig the ironclads too. But part of the reason why they were so effective is that enemy fire (cannonballs) just bounced off the hull since most of it was below the waterline. These days there are missiles and torpedos and other nastiness. I'm not very well versed in spells, is there something like an electrical charge that the ship could use around it as a defense to detonate any incoming torpedos?

I was thinking more along the lines of different types of armoured sky-ships (you know, with more than 250MDC main body). Something that travels reasonably fast, and probably able to go off-ley-line at lower speeds. The idea they are powered by elementals works perfectly, in my mind.

Weapons might be similar to the TW cannons of the ships in Queenstown Harbour (re: Coalition Navy) as they are quite powerful, but still within the '19th century navy' theme. I would expect missiles/defences to be reasonably modern as well, though, or magical equivalents thereof. The larger ones would also include a 'flight' of TW power armour (Rifts Main Book), one of the most awesome, yet most overlooked, magical devices in the game.

I will also look into different OCCs that would be specialised. For example, a ship's engineer would be a specialised techno-wizard. Officers would be a form of ley line walker, and crewmen might have a little bit of both (able to fix things, shoot things, and drive/steer as well).

Who knows? Maybe it's the Colorado Navy that keeps the baronies safe from the expansionistic tendencies of the Coalition States!

I'm also highly amused by the idea of a landlocked state having a navy. Somehow, that really appeals to me.

[azazel1024]

For anyone interested, here is a link to a site run by the Smithsonian Air and Space museum on the history of aeronautics. http://www.airspacemag.com/?ref=home

The articles you can read on this site tell you a lot about the various dangers of early and modern flight.

One of the other dangers of high altitude is ice. Its build-up can cause serious havoc with engines.

For those that think that building an airplane is easy, you should read some of these articles, especially in the "How things work" section of the site. Even prop planes are not as easy as you think. Most people do not realize that even with those types, the propellers were attached to hydraulics that changed their angles.
I do know that those with know-how will be able to build a simple prop plane or even jet-engine aircraft. Just remember, even a simple plane requires expensive equipment. Building one with MDC materials is slightly more so (requires different equipment to cut and shape MDC materials). Even being built out of MDC materials, a crash is no joke. Just because the ground is SDC does not mean a MDC aircraft is going to survive.

Also, a note about navigation. In the 1920's, pilots navigated by sight. Which means they had to lean out the window and look at land features. Radar was being developed as early as 1886 but was not put into production (for use to detect object, pulsed system) until 1934. It really wasn't refined until 1943 into the form that we (monopulse system) recognize today. It was the British (in 1934) that used it first to detect aircraft. Radar is absolutely essential for modern avionics.

There are also several other factors that go into a plane to make it safe to travel over a certain height (such as pressurized cockpit and wing de-icing systems) if you do not want to limit the height of the aircraft to a couple thousand feet. Keep in mind, the simpler the craft, the lower the flight ceiling. The lower the flight ceiling, the more danger from the ground (a decent laser rifle has a range between 2000 to 4000 feet). As for speed, as laser travels at the speed of light, so I don't think it is going to have a problem catching your plane.

As for dangers in the skies, there are multiple creature that could be there to kill you. Some examples include: Dragons (Conversion Book 1), Dragondactyl (CB1), Gromek (CB1), Harpie (CB1), Leatherwing (New West), Black Wing Monster Men (Spirit West), Man-Eagles (Spirit West), Plumed Serpent (Spirit West), Flying Tiger (South America 2, also capable of Mach flight), Gargoyles (Triax and NGR), and the list goes on and on. As for technological danger, there are missiles, flying power armors, hovercraft, other planes, sky cycles, and a host of other dangers. Going to fly really high to avoid the dangers lower down? Get shot from orbit by satellites under control of the space factions.

In the long run, dangers of air travel are many, especially in Rifts. I won't say that it is impossible for smaller powers or even individuals to own an air asset, just really difficult to keep it in the air (whether due to combat, regular maintenance, environmental issues or just navigational data) over the long haul. It is one of the reasons that those that are crazy enough to take to the air make good money transporting goods.

My point is that constructing a simple air plane actually IS relatively easy if you have some basic aeronautical enigeering and mechanical engineering knowledge. Considering the advanced vehicles that plenty of powers are able to put out (Iron Heart...while they existed, CS, Triax/NGR, Free Quebec, NG, MI, BM and many others), it shouldn't be that difficult to find a manufacturer who could make a pretty decent airplane at not too bad a price.

For something really big, well, the really big suckers most likely use nuclear engines, which we know aren't super cheap, but at the same time, effectively unlimited range.

You are still going to have plenty of circumstances where air travel is rather a necessity. In a lot of places travel by ground probably is more dangerous or the time consumed is an issue.

For example a person needing to get some place quickly. What is faster, hoping in a small bush plane and traveling (mostly) as the crow flies at maybe 100-140mph the 200-500 miles you might need to travel? Or having to travel by land, possibly over unpaved roads and tracks, maybe 1.2-4x the distance because you can't travel in a straight line to your destination, possibly running in to a lot more in the way bandits and monsters and stuff, maybe at only 10-30mph average speed? One gets you there in a couple of hours to maybe a few hours. The other might take you a week to get there and might be significantly more dangerous.

Or how about important goods that are time critical? High value, low mass items (weapons, drugs, valuable metals/gems, cash credits, VIPs, magical artifacts, mail) for example.

There are always going to be reasons why flying somewhere is a much better idea than going by land. By air is not going to be the primary means of trade for a lot of places. Carrying high bulk items is never cost effective by air, even with "no cost fuel" nuclear engines. Sometimes the air route is going to be more dangerous, or maybe there is no real time sensitivity involved so cheaper land travel is prefered.

Or you have locations where the ONLY way to trade with them is by air. Say, travel by land is infeasible because of terrain and/or local badness so you have to fly there (or the distance is so great land/water travel for regular trade isn't an easy option because of danger/time/expense. For example trade between the CS and Triax/NGR as well as likely Triax trade with North America for legit/BM sales).


Just my humble 2 cents, but other than deus ex machina, there is plausible reason why air travel wouldn't be relatively common. Not modern day common, but also not super rare and only the fool hearted or the CS attempt it.

[Blue_Lion]

1. Satellites only shoot stuff going into orbit, not anything at sub-orbital heights.
2. Monsters have to endure this thing called breathing. They fly at relatively low ceilings, and are slower then almost any aircraft in existence (ESPECIALLY in Rifts)
3. The major powers all have the ability to construct craft with navigational radar, FLIR (Foward looking infrared for night flying), stealth or magical treatments for radar avoidance, etc.
4. Cargo helicopters, small aerial mail planes, TW Sky Ships, Ley Line Sailers, rebuilt C-5, C-141s, with Sky King or Northern Gun aerodyne escorts are cheap.
5. How is said bandit group deploying medium missile launchers? On a truck chassis? I hope they're not shooting at CS or NGR convoys, or they're going to have issues with skycycle/flying robot escorts/etc
6. Map updates are easy. Wilk's, Northern Gun, and Naruni Enterprises all produce map computers for the US (Mercops has the relevant information).

Not on 2 not every monster needs to breath.
4 they may be cheep but it whould be hard for a small nation to keep loosing them and personal to sustain large movement.
5. could be anyting from robots tanks or even air craft. Shoot and scoot whould still work if you are the edge of CS and have there respaunce times maped out.

[azazel1024]

My point is that constructing a simple air plane actually IS relatively easy if you have some basic aeronautical enigeering and mechanical engineering knowledge. Considering the advanced vehicles that plenty of powers are able to put out (Iron Heart...while they existed, CS, Triax/NGR, Free Quebec, NG, MI, BM and many others), it shouldn't be that difficult to find a manufacturer who could make a pretty decent airplane at not too bad a price.

For something really big, well, the really big suckers most likely use nuclear engines, which we know aren't super cheap, but at the same time, effectively unlimited range.

You are still going to have plenty of circumstances where air travel is rather a necessity. In a lot of places travel by ground probably is more dangerous or the time consumed is an issue.

For example a person needing to get some place quickly. What is faster, hoping in a small bush plane and traveling (mostly) as the crow flies at maybe 100-140mph the 200-500 miles you might need to travel? Or having to travel by land, possibly over unpaved roads and tracks, maybe 1.2-4x the distance because you can't travel in a straight line to your destination, possibly running in to a lot more in the way bandits and monsters and stuff, maybe at only 10-30mph average speed? One gets you there in a couple of hours to maybe a few hours. The other might take you a week to get there and might be significantly more dangerous.

Or how about important goods that are time critical? High value, low mass items (weapons, drugs, valuable metals/gems, cash credits, VIPs, magical artifacts, mail) for example.

There are always going to be reasons why flying somewhere is a much better idea than going by land. By air is not going to be the primary means of trade for a lot of places. Carrying high bulk items is never cost effective by air, even with "no cost fuel" nuclear engines. Sometimes the air route is going to be more dangerous, or maybe there is no real time sensitivity involved so cheaper land travel is prefered.

Or you have locations where the ONLY way to trade with them is by air. Say, travel by land is infeasible because of terrain and/or local badness so you have to fly there (or the distance is so great land/water travel for regular trade isn't an easy option because of danger/time/expense. For example trade between the CS and Triax/NGR as well as likely Triax trade with North America for legit/BM sales).


Just my humble 2 cents, but other than deus ex machina, there is plausible reason why air travel wouldn't be relatively common. Not modern day common, but also not super rare and only the fool hearted or the CS attempt it.

I think part of the problem with the notion is that there doesn't seem to be a tangible reason to pick a light aircraft over a NG-300 Speedster, or other cheap hovercycle. They are more armored, easier to fly, have a variety of engines to choose from, fly just as fast, and are commonly available. Granted, many cannot achieve any significant altitude, but since the primary desire is to travel above the ground(light aircraft are well within range of handheld M.D weapons and flying monsters) at some speed I think that's the better choice. The invention of safe and reliable jet packs does this as well, such as the Legion-90, the Wilk's, and the Falcon 300, and can be had for as little as 30,000 credits. No hangers, no landing strips, and safer.

Except the cargo capacity and passenger capacity of one of them is basically what you can strap to them. Most light air craft can fit 4 people including pilot and typically have room (if no passengers) for roughly 600-1,000lbs of cargo taking up roughly the same volume as 3 seats/people.

Light aircraft can easily climb over handheld weapons. The lowly J-3 Piper Cub had a service ceiling of 11,200ft. That is well beyond minimissile range or any other hand held and most vehicle mounted energy weapon and kinetic energy weapon range in Rifts.

Most light aircraft aren't stuck to 100ft or anything like that. They are generally limited in large part by the method of powerplant and cabin pressurization. Most light air craft are naturally aspirated 4 or 6 cylinder inline light weight 4 stroke reciprocating piston engines powered by avgas. That means they are going to top out in the 10,000-14,000ft ASL range due to rapid drop off in power above those altitudes as well as increasing requirement for a pressurized cabin.

Since EBA is pretty common and it isn't that difficult to turbocharge an engine, or supercharge (or multistage super charge) there isn't any real prohibition against making high altitude light airplanes in Rifts. Pressure sealing stuff is relatively trivial as shown in rifts (with plenty of cheap vehicles being sealed and you could always just wear EBA/pressure suit if going over a certain altitude). Yes, you have to worry about icing, but it also isn't that difficult an issue to deal with.

So there are plenty of reasons to go with light aircraft over a hover bike or jet pack.

[Icefalcon]

1. Satellites only shoot stuff going into orbit, not anything at sub-orbital heights.

The satellites will shoot at things in the sub-orbital heights. Just check the supersonic transport description in Triax and the NGR.

2. Monsters have to endure this thing called breathing. They fly at relatively low ceilings, and are slower then almost any aircraft in existence (ESPECIALLY in Rifts)

True. But, They can put themselves at a height to fire at aircraft. They can also be smart enough to figure out that certain planes fly over their territory at certain times and start waiting for the return trips.

3. The major powers all have the ability to construct craft with navigational radar, FLIR (Foward looking infrared for night flying), stealth or magical treatments for radar avoidance, etc.

I said they would. I said it was the smaller powers that would have trouble building aircraft.

4. Cargo helicopters, small aerial mail planes, TW Sky Ships, Ley Line Sailers, rebuilt C-5, C-141s, with Sky King or Northern Gun aerodyne escorts are cheap.

Then you sacrifice your most coveted thing, speed. Most of these things travel slower than even a cargo plane. I agree it would make you safer to have an escort but would make you more vulnerable to attack at the same time.

5. How is said bandit group deploying medium missile launchers? On a truck chassis? I hope they're not shooting at CS or NGR convoys, or they're going to have issues with skycycle/flying robot escorts/etc

Bandits could have many ways of shooting medium missiles. Yes, shooting at NGR or CS is stupid for bandits. But they would not all be bandits if they were intelligent.

6. Map updates are easy. Wilk's, Northern Gun, and Naruni Enterprises all produce map computers for the US (Mercops has the relevant information).

Until part of the continent D-shifts into something else.

[Icefalcon]

I think part of the problem with the notion is that there doesn't seem to be a tangible reason to pick a light aircraft over a NG-300 Speedster, or other cheap hovercycle. They are more armored, easier to fly, have a variety of engines to choose from, fly just as fast, and are commonly available. Granted, many cannot achieve any significant altitude, but since the primary desire is to travel above the ground(light aircraft are well within range of handheld M.D weapons and flying monsters) at some speed I think that's the better choice. The invention of safe and reliable jet packs does this as well, such as the Legion-90, the Wilk's, and the Falcon 300, and can be had for as little as 30,000 credits. No hangers, no landing strips, and safer.

I agree that this is why we do not see more aircraft. It is much easier to get a hold of a hovercycle, jet pack or hover vehicle.

[flatline]

There are significant fuel savings to be had at the higher altitudes since you don't have to spend as much energy displacing the air you're flying through. This also allows you to attain higher airspeeds.

Probably not an issue if everyone is using nuclear power plants, but a big deal if people are still using fuel.

--flatline

[azazel1024]

For the light air craft today, generally people don't tend to fly that high because of power plant constraints (you could go higher, but you are going to be severly limited in power) combined with comfort. Even with the cabin heater going, in a non-pressurized cessna at 10,000ft if the temp is roughly 80F at ground level it is going to be below freezing up that high and you are going to be breathing much thinner air (with leads to increased fatigue).

Its a bit like fighter jets. Most modern jet fighters have ceilings in the 50,000-60,000ft range, but you rarely find them flying that high. Of course they have pressurized heated cabins. Generally more in the 30,000-40,000ft range (when cruising between locations).

The thing to keep in mind is if the major powers can produce air planes easily, there will be trickle down. Northern Gun, MI, Golden Age, BM, Naruni, Triax, etc are going to make a buck anyway they can. If churning out 150,000 credit light planes constructed of low cost MDC materials and with a gas or even electric (but non-nuclear) power plant can turn a buck, they'll do it.

I agree that a lot of people will use a hover cycle or hover vehicle for travel and cargo. Jet packs aren't going to be super common. First because I think all of them require wearing body armor to operate (which increases the cost significantly for your average person), it isn't likely to be a skill a lot of people have, and cargo and passenger ability are effectively zero. Think military and scouts. Maybe couriers.

I just disagree that the unfriendly skies of Rifts Earth would, generally, be less safe than the unfriendly forests, glades, moutains, etc of Rifts Earth.

It potentially much simpler to rough and tumble make an air route safe from most dangers than it is a ground route. Air route, again unless going for Lolz, you aren't going to find many bandits or monsters who are likely to go after something high flying. Land route, absolutely no such luck. A hover bike is pretty easy to knock out/down and possibly have something salvagable for a bandit(s), let alone the likelihood of just pointing a crap load of weapons at the poor schmuck(s) and getting them to park the thing with no resistance. A plane at 10k ft...not so much. Shoot that down, even light MDC and odds are probably good there will be very little salvagable left of it, if they don't completely obliterate it in the sky (remember, from the ground, about the only thing in the game with legs are missiles, so its not like you are shooting a few pretty holes in it and, oh sorry 0 MDC, the controls fail, engine dies, etc and you fall from the sky, it is Oh, you smacked it with a missile and it is below 0 MDC from the hit, the thing is obliterated. Pick up the pieces).

Monsters are probably likely to leave things that high flying alone as well. Even if they have the reach, is a little tiny air plane flying 2 miles up going to seem like much of a threat to even flying creatures? Probably not. It is going to be pretty darned small from that far away. Even a much bigger airplane probably wouldn't, but then again it is also probably fying a lot higher and faster.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, i think a lot of people are under-rating rifts "hover" technology. a hovercycle is terrible for transporting large quantities of low-value goods, obviously, but they're absolutely great for personal travel above-ground.

for example, just pulling out my GMG... first page of vehicles, quebec has a "hover" transport. it has a max altitude of 600 feet. that's going to get you past a lot of obstacles (especially since afaict, in rifts max altitude is generally referring to above ground, rather than above sea level). whatever "hover" means in rifts, it certainly isn't the same as our modern hovercraft.

now granted, that transport is 2.5 million credits (though it's also a military model, which increases costs), but point being, the only thing an airplane adds to the equation is a higher flight ceiling.

the coalition has several hover cars, the cheapest of which is 650k credits (with non-CS equivalents costing 850k credits if you don't want to get shot down for having CS property). the flight ceiling on that one is 500 feet, again plenty high for obstacle evasion. free quebec has a hovercycle with a max altitude of 2500 feet.

even the "worst" of the hoverbikes can handle 60 feet up. the NG-300 (the one in the main book) is listed in GMG as having a max altitude of 120 feet.

hover technology is generally sufficient for getting around. conventional flight (ie airplanes, jets, helicopters) is going to need more for motivation than just avoiding obstacles.

when you can produce a bike that can fly well enough and it costs just over 100k credits, i think there's a lot less incentive to develop a transport jet.

[azazel1024]

Speed and cost.

A light airplane isn't very expensive to build. Considering the general power available from good electric motors and gas powered engines in Rifts, I'd imagine your average single engine piper/cessna equivelent is probably going to hae a top speed roughly in the 300mph range, which is fast than a lot of hover vehicles.

Probably not significantly more expensive than a hover cycle and certainly less than the 600,000cr or so of a hover car (a mid sized dual prop MDC plane might run up that much).

On the large scale, even with an expensive large cargo jet, you can likely deliver that cargo on the order of 3-6x faster (and that is just assuming a subsonic jet) and fly way higher and faster than almost any conceivable threat other than a fighter jet.

Flying at 100ft AGL puts you well within the claws, sights or reach of a lot of badness.

[flatline]

It seems like these are the important flight ceilings:

>200' puts you out of range of magic and psychic See Invisible.
>2000' puts you out of range of most small arms
>4000' puts you out of range of all small arms.
>5280' puts you out of range of mini missiles
>11,000' puts you out of range of the BoomGun and most vehicle mounted weapons
>26,400' puts you out of range of short range missiles

I'm ignoring cloud cover, of course, and I'm not speculating at what altitude you become effectively invisible from the ground.

Did I miss anything significant?

--flatline

[azazel1024]

The range per short range missiles would be shorter. Ignoring the realism that a missile/rocket has a lower maximum altitude than its maximum range (because it uses a lot more energy climbing to the altitude), you also have the fact that even if it has that altitude/range, unless you time it perfectly and the target doesn't evade, it takes a certain amount of time for the short range missile to travel the distance, during which the target is also moving.

Even if the missile is moving at Mach 5, roughly 5400fps, that takes about 5 seconds to reach max altitude, during which a plane moving even a lowly 200mph would have covered 1,500 feet. A faster plane would of course covered a larger distance.

That is more by waying of saying maximum range would be 26,400. Effective ceiling against slow moving aircraft when you account for manuevering, luck, etc is probably more like 24,000ft. Against fast moving air craft it is probably closer to 15,000-20,000ft (near supersonic or supersonic aircraft).

I guess to clarify what I have been attempting to say, hover craft and stuff would surplant planes for a lot of stuff, but there would still be a good reason to have a fair number of planes around, even if more limited than today. They fly a lot faster than hover craft, there are very, very few heavy lift hovercraft designs, where there are plenty of airplane designs today that can carry massive loads. C-17 is roughly 85t. C-5 is around 130t absolute max (a pair of M1A1 in war time. Peace time cargo limit is much lower as it typical).

That is significantly more than any commercial or military hover vehicle I have seen stated out in Rifts. It can do all that at a speed excess of 500mph.

Not going to be something cheap though and not something you'd see most places. Those big'uns are going to be the province of major powers.

Smaller things, like like single and twin engine light aircraft are going to be what is common. You'll probably see some low payload 8-20 passenger twin engine jobs with cargo capacities of 3,000-7,000lbs as well. Maybe a few of the big transportation companies and kingdoms would have the equivelent of C-130, 707/727's for heavier cargo and passenger runs, but those wouldn't be super common.

Merc groups however, for the bigger ones, might well have several heavy lift cargo planes. Lots of military advantage in being able to resupply quickly and move forces around quickly.

[glitterboy2098]

i would imagine the 727 would be about as big as civilian non-VTOL aircraft would get normal. the 727 can be fitted with gravel kits (screens and other systems designed to allow operation off dirt airstrips and rough fields), and it can carry quite a good amount of cargo while still operating off of short airstrips. one of the reasons the 727 is still the main passenger and cargo jet for African countries.

also regarding anti-aircraft fire..
the moving target penalties are pretty tough.
-1 if moving automatically. and another -1 for every 50mph over an initial 20mph.
that 200mph plane is -5 to strike. -1 for moving, and another -4 for moving at 200mph (base plus 200 - 20 = 180/50 = 3.6, round up.)
a jet fighter at typical cruise speeds (~600mph give or take) would be -13 to strike. (base plus 600 - 20 = 480/50 = 11.6, round up.)
a passenger jet cruises at roughly the same speeds.

and thus far, there aren't an official adjustments for these yet.. i expect that future books will have special rules or special targeting systems to help offset the difficulty of shooting at planes from the ground. especially with missiles, which only get their own bonuses (the +3 or +5 of guided missiles, or a whopping -3 for unguided!), plus anything the firing unit's targeting systems states they get. which is usually only a +1 or +2.
this makes ground based Surface to air missiles worse than standard guns, since they don't get access to as many bonuses from skills and systems.
oh, and forget about called shots using missiles. RUE: pg 362 "Note: All missiles always strike the main body"

ground based guns aren't much better, for all that they gain a few extra +1's here and there. of course, this is semi-realistic, since gun based anti-aircraft hasn't been very effective since WW1, even with radar guided aiming systems. even the DIVADS type radar aimed mobile AA guns are used more for anti-helicopter work and area denial than actual anti-aircraft intercept.
and right now the game doesn't have rules for the kind of general area shooting that is used for Flak guns.

so basically, in universe there isn't anything to prevent aviation from becoming a major part of the setting, and in terms of game rules there is even less reason not to fly.

honestly, i tihnk the reason it's not been elaborated on more is the fact that compared to most of the stuff in sourcebooks and worldbooks, civil aviation is seen as boring. you'd have to put a lot of effort in to make it have the "wow factor' kevin S. prefers.

personally i think you could, but you'd have to approach is very carefully, and emphasize the gameplay advantages.

[flatline]

The range per short range missiles would be shorter.

Yes, I was totally ignoring the fact that even ignoring the movement of the aircraft, the missile would be traveling they hypotenuse of the right triangle made by the aircraft, the launcher, and the point on the ground directly beneath the aircraft. I thought about that right before hitting submit but hit submit anyways since I am normally inclined to go with pessimistic estimations of things. The fact that the aircraft is in motion just makes the estimates even more pessimistic.

--flatline

[Icefalcon]

In Rifts, most vehicles are equipped with radar. It is no matter to shoot a missile at a plane when it is guided by radar. Not to mention, you can fire before the plane even flies over your position.

[taalismn]

In Rifts, most vehicles are equipped with radar. It is no matter to shoot a missile at a plane when it is guided by radar. Not to mention, you can fire before the plane even flies over your position.

All-aspect radar homing. Figure that electronics during the Golden Age have gotten even more sophisticated(they'd have to be, if you've got autonomous nanotech(as with the IRMSS units).

[glitterboy2098]

you can detect the plane with radar yes. but missiles are self-guided, and that limits their accuracy going by the rules. they only get the +3 or +5 of their guidance package, and maybe a +1 from a targeting computer on a vehicle.
unguided missiles, which comprise the majority of rifts missiles by RUE, have to be fired on ballistic courses towards where you think the target will be. which explains the extra -3 penalty. missiles are not as stable as bullets, and much harder to aim. and if the target moves in unexpected ways, it will miss.


in the real world, missiles used to shoot down aircraft have very powerful and very special guidance systems. most use 'passive radar guidance'. which is basically a special targeting radar at the SAM battery puts a radar beam over the target, and the missile homes in on the reflections fro mthe beam. the fancy targeting elements that ensure a hit are found in the ground radar, not the missile. (an earlier version of the missiles used for such systems literally followed the beam to the target) the combination means that the whole assembly functions more like a gun with missiles as bullets.
we don't have such systems in rifts.

newer SAM systems that use active guidance don't use the missiles guidance system except at the very last few seconds. from firing up the the point they are near the target, the missiels are controlled via radio links that use a ground based radar to steer it to the target. only once it nears the target, at a distance the target cannot escape from, does the missile turn on its own radar and use that to home in.
we do not have such systems in rifts.

surface to air missile attacks are a lot more complex than people assume.

[Icefalcon]

Can somebody give me a brief refresher on the Orbital platforms that shoot suborbital aircraft? My Mutants in Orbit book is halfway around the world but I don't remember the ceiling before the weapon systems kicked in. Also, why aren't CS/Triax/RoJ trying to clear out satellites and other danger platforms?

It does not specifically say. It does say anything that comes in range of the satellite gets shot down.

[Icefalcon]

Can somebody give me a brief refresher on the Orbital platforms that shoot suborbital aircraft? My Mutants in Orbit book is halfway around the world but I don't remember the ceiling before the weapon systems kicked in. Also, why aren't CS/Triax/RoJ trying to clear out satellites and other danger platforms?

It does not specifically say. It does say anything that comes in range of the satellite gets shot down.

I always get confused because I understand that the major powers are technologically capable of producing a space craft but simply can't get past the orbital defences. The technology exists to shoot down missiles or just bombard orbit so what would be the negative of trying to clear out space so that high altitude supersonic/ballistic flights could be establish.

One of the things the books do say is that the outer space colonies are 50 years further advanced than CS or NGR. It will not be possible for either of those powers to push into outer space. The only two powers that could are Atlantis and Naruni.

[glitterboy2098]

Can somebody give me a brief refresher on the Orbital platforms that shoot suborbital aircraft? My Mutants in Orbit book is halfway around the world but I don't remember the ceiling before the weapon systems kicked in. Also, why aren't CS/Triax/RoJ trying to clear out satellites and other danger platforms?

see the supersonic jet from WB5. according to that, anything over 100,000ft is shot at by the orbital defenses.

[flatline]

Can somebody give me a brief refresher on the Orbital platforms that shoot suborbital aircraft? My Mutants in Orbit book is halfway around the world but I don't remember the ceiling before the weapon systems kicked in. Also, why aren't CS/Triax/RoJ trying to clear out satellites and other danger platforms?

It does not specifically say. It does say anything that comes in range of the satellite gets shot down.

I always get confused because I understand that the major powers are technologically capable of producing a space craft but simply can't get past the orbital defences. The technology exists to shoot down missiles or just bombard orbit so what would be the negative of trying to clear out space so that high altitude supersonic/ballistic flights could be establish.

I think it would be easy for any of the major powers to build a ground based laser to target and destroy all the killer satellites. The debris field would take more effort to deal with. Given time, all the debris would slow and fall harmlessly into the atmosphere, so if the ground based laser could prevent anyone in higher orbits from replenishing the debris field, space would become accessible again. Of course, the powers in orbit could wage a similar war on anything sent from Earth into orbit or, if they feel particularly intolerant, they could target locations on the ground.

Basically, lots of people would die and lower earth orbit would become a killing ground for both sides.

But it would be completely doable.

--flatline

[eliakon]

The BIG question is 'would anyone care to do this' I mean the CS and Triax COULD do it, but they sort of have lots of OTHER things on their plates, cleaning space so that everyone can fly safer doesn't seem to me to be a high priority, espeically since any large groundbased systems would be vunerable to orbital bombardment. I can see if they REALLY wanted to they could set up a system, and then leverage some sort of IFF immunity for CS trafic (we dont go hog wild on the orbital defenses, and your lasers dont shoot us...you can shoot everyone else though) Since lets face it there is no way to keep the stations invisible. They are going to be visible from earth based telescopes.....

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

In Mutants in Orbit, it explains that it is a little of both. There are definitely some automated platforms, but plenty have been added by the space stations.