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If I recall correctly, golems made using the magic ritual (SDC) or the earth warlock spell (HP) can remain alive even after their creator dies, and will follow their last command.

If the master of a golem gives the command 'obey person A' would this make person A the new master if the original dies?

I'm wondering if there might be mages teaching acolytes this ritual, draining them of their life force, and assuming control of their creation by forcing them to transfer the allegiance and then murdering them.

Kind of like what the Astral Avatars of Night Lords due to Astral Lords/Mages in Nightbane.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, I don't see why not.

Tor wrote:If I recall correctly, golems made using the magic ritual (SDC) or the earth warlock spell (HP) can remain alive even after their creator dies, and will follow their last command.

If the master of a golem gives the command 'obey person A' would this make person A the new master if the original dies?

I'm wondering if there might be mages teaching acolytes this ritual, draining them of their life force, and assuming control of their creation by forcing them to transfer the allegiance and then murdering them.

Kind of like what the Astral Avatars of Night Lords due to Astral Lords/Mages in Nightbane.

No, the life force bond does not transfer.

Tor wrote:If I recall correctly, golems made using the magic ritual (SDC) or the earth warlock spell (HP) can remain alive even after their creator dies, and will follow their last command.

If the master of a golem gives the command 'obey person A' would this make person A the new master if the original dies?

Yup.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tor wrote:If I recall correctly, golems made using the magic ritual (SDC) or the earth warlock spell (HP) can remain alive even after their creator dies, and will follow their last command.

If the master of a golem gives the command 'obey person A' would this make person A the new master if the original dies?

I'm wondering if there might be mages teaching acolytes this ritual, draining them of their life force, and assuming control of their creation by forcing them to transfer the allegiance and then murdering them.

Kind of like what the Astral Avatars of Night Lords due to Astral Lords/Mages in Nightbane.

No, the life force bond does not transfer.

Perhaps this is the perfect opportunity for a new spell/ritual to be created. Perhaps a modified version of Attune Object to Owner spell, has to be initiated by the original owner, joint ritual with the new owner, who has to provide a new blood sample to finish transferring ownership...

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:If I recall correctly, golems made using the magic ritual (SDC) or the earth warlock spell (HP) can remain alive even after their creator dies, and will follow their last command.

If the master of a golem gives the command 'obey person A' would this make person A the new master if the original dies?

Yup.

I disagree. The golem would likely continue to obey them, but they don't inherit the lifeforce bond, which opens up the probability that the golem looses it's immunity to mind influcing magic

Another thought: Would perhaps the Golem start to obey a close relative, should the initial master perish, due to the blood relation (should said relative encounter the golem)?

13eowulf wrote:Another thought: Would perhaps the Golem start to obey a close relative, should the initial master perish, due to the blood relation (should said relative encounter the golem)?

Not unless the original creator left such instructions.
Even then, I don't think that the golem could sense anything about bloodlines... so it would end up being just the first guy who came along and convinced the golem (IQ 80, I believe) that he was the relative.

wasn't there another thread posted somewhere on this subject? Something about Golem creators making and selling off Golems as robots with the only command given to them being "obey person X" and person X walking away with a brand new golem servant...

Well you can make it that the Golem only recognize the Wearer of a Magic Ring or a Medallion it is link to as it,s Master and follow ther commands.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the life force bond does not transfer.

Not sure what this refers to. A mage's life empowers the golem. Presumably it makes them the ultimate authority and override regardless of prior commands.

Like if Mage A says "obey Mage B in all things" and Mage B then says "kill Mage A", Mage A could renact it by saying "no, do not kill me, and no longer obey Mage B".

Once that bond is broken however, presumably if someone else was made the master, while there's no life force bond (still not sure what that is) they then become the ultimate authority in terms of priorities.

This begs the question of what happens if Mage A says "Obey Mage B and Mage C in all things" and then Mage A dies, like if B and C then ordered the Golem to kill each other (well actually, it might just kill both of them, but you get what I mean)

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The golem would likely continue to obey them, but they don't inherit the lifeforce bond, which opens up the probability that the golem looses it's immunity to mind influcing magic

Ignoring the issue of new masters for a moment, do we have any indication that golems with dead masters are now vulnerable to this?

13eowulf wrote:Another thought: Would perhaps the Golem start to obey a close relative, should the initial master perish, due to the blood relation (should said relative encounter the golem)?

Doubt it, magic's as much about mind as it is DNA, regardless of blood requirements. I think directions about new masters would need to be left in the way a golem could understand (keep in mind IQ 6) and golems don't have a method listed of detecting DNA.

Actually because golems are so stupid and lack enhanced senses, if you told it to obey a new master, it would probably be pretty easy to fool it by a Changeling taking the form of that new master and giving it orders.

I don't think this problem can occur with the original master though because I think the Golem can somehow detect who their original master is (perhaps via that blood/PPE bond) and would not obey imposters to the original like they might imposters to newly assigned masters.

gaby wrote:Well you can make it that the Golem only recognize the Wearer of a Magic Ring or a Medallion it is link to as it,s Master and follow ther commands.

Ignoring that such rings/medallions can be stolen, we don't know a golem's capacity to recognize a specific ring, so odds are a good Forger could copy the jewelry and fool the golem into following whoever wears a decent impression of the item.

I could have sworn I had read it somewhere, but the more I look I simply can't find any reference to what gave me the idea. Ah well, it's entirely possible i'm confusing ideas from another game.

Tor wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Another thought: Would perhaps the Golem start to obey a close relative, should the initial master perish, due to the blood relation (should said relative encounter the golem)?

Doubt it, magic's as much about mind as it is DNA, regardless of blood requirements. I think directions about new masters would need to be left in the way a golem could understand (keep in mind IQ 6) and golems don't have a method listed of detecting DNA.

Actually because golems are so stupid and lack enhanced senses, if you told it to obey a new master, it would probably be pretty easy to fool it by a Changeling taking the form of that new master and giving it orders.

I don't think this problem can occur with the original master though because I think the Golem can somehow detect who their original master is (perhaps via that blood/PPE bond) and would not obey imposters to the original like they might imposters to newly assigned masters.

The intelligence of the Golem would not factor in, the bond isnt scientific, it is neither about DNA specifically nor is it about it about IQ, it is magical. I would say that as-written a changeling couldnt usurp control by looking like the master, because it is not a visual bond, the golem would just know, IQ would not factor in.

And since the bond is magical, and thematically blood is 'powerful' when it comes to magic (although granted it is not explicitly so in palladium), that it makes sense that the bond bond may shift to the original master's 'next of kin'. But there is nothing in the written rules on this, so it is speculation, but it would make for some interesting flavour for a game...

I'm really liking the idea of casting "Friend in the Head" on a golem, then ordering it to do what the voice directs (except of course for harming you). Give the goleem some real personality...

13eowulf wrote:

Tor wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Another thought: Would perhaps the Golem start to obey a close relative, should the initial master perish, due to the blood relation (should said relative encounter the golem)?

Doubt it, magic's as much about mind as it is DNA, regardless of blood requirements. I think directions about new masters would need to be left in the way a golem could understand (keep in mind IQ 6) and golems don't have a method listed of detecting DNA.

Actually because golems are so stupid and lack enhanced senses, if you told it to obey a new master, it would probably be pretty easy to fool it by a Changeling taking the form of that new master and giving it orders.

I don't think this problem can occur with the original master though because I think the Golem can somehow detect who their original master is (perhaps via that blood/PPE bond) and would not obey imposters to the original like they might imposters to newly assigned masters.

The intelligence of the Golem would not factor in, the bond isnt scientific, it is neither about DNA specifically nor is it about it about IQ, it is magical. I would say that as-written a changeling couldnt usurp control by looking like the master, because it is not a visual bond, the golem would just know, IQ would not factor in.

And since the bond is magical, and thematically blood is 'powerful' when it comes to magic (although granted it is not explicitly so in palladium), that it makes sense that the bond bond may shift to the original master's 'next of kin'. But there is nothing in the written rules on this, so it is speculation, but it would make for some interesting flavour for a game...

The golem follows the orders of the person who created it.
Anybody who is NOT the person who created it, albeit stranger, changeling, identical twin, clone, or great grand-daughter, does not meet the sole criteria of obtaining the Golem's obedience.

Unless the creator specifically orders the golem to follow somebody else' orders.

Tor wrote:If I recall correctly, golems made using the magic ritual (SDC) or the earth warlock spell (HP) can remain alive even after their creator dies, and will follow their last command.

If the master of a golem gives the command 'obey person A' would this make person A the new master if the original dies?
...snip

Was looking through the RBoM and I could not find any "create Golem" in the earth elemental magic. Where is this found?

And on little word usage error, the the correct word is "active" not "alive."
Corrected in the following quote..."... can remain active even after their creator dies...'
The reason for this is that Golems are not "Alive" even if they are mobile.

While the creating mage can instruct the golem to follow someone else's orders. Even so that person is not bonded to it. (note: this covers the blood relation and tortured creator question.)

Golems are not alive, so are immune to mind control. The exception to this is when the golem does have a mind in it (see the rifter with golemmancy in it for details about sentient golems.)

"friend in the Head" on a golem, nice twist for a adventure.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Was looking through the RBoM and I could not find any "create Golem" in the earth elemental magic. Where is this found?

RBoM page 73, bottom left quadrant of the page under Cap Volcano, and before Firequake.
Also listed on page 66 under the list of spells for Earth Warlocks (a Level 8 spell).

Personally, I have the Golems stop obeying any orders when the creator dies, his blood link provides that animating force and is lost on death (undeath, or suspended animation would be special cases )

13eowulf wrote:The intelligence of the Golem would not factor in, the bond isnt scientific, it is neither about DNA specifically nor is it about it about IQ, it is magical. I would say that as-written a changeling couldnt usurp control by looking like the master, because it is not a visual bond, the golem would just know, IQ would not factor in.

And since the bond is magical, and thematically blood is 'powerful' when it comes to magic (although granted it is not explicitly so in palladium), that it makes sense that the bond bond may shift to the original master's 'next of kin'. But there is nothing in the written rules on this, so it is speculation, but it would make for some interesting flavour for a game...

I think you're misreading my post. When I talked about a changeling fooling the golem, it was not about fooling the golem about who it's creator (first master) is, but rather, fooling the golem about who it's later masters are. Masters who would lack the mystical bond that the creator has.

It's the same way a golem could be confused about who it is supposed to go out and kill.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And on little word usage error, the the correct word is "active" not "alive."
Corrected in the following quote..."... can remain active even after their creator dies...'
The reason for this is that Golems are not "Alive" even if they are mobile.

Touche, you got me there. Nor be they dead or undead either I spose, having never lived to die or undie.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:"friend in the Head" on a golem, nice twist for a adventure.

Ah but then we could argue about whether or not a golem has enough of a 'head' so to speak for the spell to live in, or if they could even communicate when it's designed to communicate with living beings.

Hot Rod wrote:Personally, I have the Golems stop obeying any orders when the creator dies, his blood link provides that animating force and is lost on death

This be a canon discussion tho!

Hot Rod wrote:Personally, I have the Golems stop obeying any orders when the creator dies, his blood link provides that animating force and is lost on death

This be a canon discussion tho![/quote]

Then "Technically" you cannot order a golem to obey another's orders as it only obeys the orders of it's creator. (Like it can't hear them or just has no inclination to obey them.)

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:"friend in the Head" on a golem, nice twist for a adventure.

Ah but then we could argue about whether or not a golem has enough of a 'head' so to speak for the spell to live in, or if they could even communicate when it's designed to communicate with living beings.

As with most good adventure ideas, the idea is non-canon.

Panomas wrote:could you site book and page numbers so I can read up before posting further on your thoughts.

Um... okay...

Rifts Main Book page 188 and Conversion Book page 73
Palladium Fantasy 2nd Ed pages 213 & 233

Hot Rod wrote:you cannot order a golem to obey another's orders as it only obeys the orders of it's creator. (Like it can't hear them or just has no inclination to obey them.)

But if it doesn't obey another's orders, it isn't obeying the orders of the creator. While they don't understand complex commands, 'obey X' isn't too complex.

I think it reasonable to assume that the bit about not obeying others has the unwritten 'unless that's what the creator commands' part to it.

I find the 'obeys creator's last command until destroyed' bit a little confusing. Like what if the last command was just 'chop down this tree'. What happens if the last command is finite and not open-ended? Do they shut down at that point? Wait for the tree to grow back? Go chop down all trees?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:the idea is non-canon.

Can you clarify what is non-canon about an idea? I don't understand what you mean. Canon either makes an idea feasible or infeasible.